Two-Handed Vs. Dual-Wield

[Lie]

Two-Handed vs. Dual-Wield

Comparison of the two main weapon styles of Melee DPS as of G12

Quickfinder (Use "Ctrl + F" and type in the 3 figures in the box to go to that section)

[aa0] Introduction
What are these terms?
:::::: Two-Handed
::::::[bb2] Dual-Wield
[cc0] What are their basic differences?
::::::[cc1] Two-Handed
::::::[cc2] Dual-Wield
[dd0] The Question: Which is Better?
::::::[dd1] Before G8
::::::[dd2] After G8
::::::[dd3] The two related Melee Skills
::::::[dd4] NPC Sword comparison
::::::[dd5] Mid-level Human Sword comparison
::::::[dd6] Mid-level Giant Blunt comparison
::::::[dd7] Endgame Human Sword comparison
::::::[dd8] Endgame Giant Blunt comparison
::::::[dd9] Human Spirit Weapon comparison
::::::[dd10] Giant Spirit Weapon comparison
[ee0] Analysis of Previous Section Data and Applicable Factors – What does this all mean?
::::::[ee1] Broad Axe vs. Warhammer over base damage interval
::::::[ee2] Highlander Claymore vs. War Sword over base damage interval
::::::[ee3] Ego Dustin Silver Knight Sword vs. Ego Bastard Sword + War Sword over base damage interval
::::::[ee4] Conclusion on Smash
[ff0] Is there any differences that actually make an impact besides max damage?
::::::[ff1] Min Damage, Average Damage, and Average Damage with Critical
::::::[ff2] Giant's ability to have two-handed sword and shield at once
::::::[ff3] Repair Cost
::::::[ff4] Others
[gg0] Afterthoughts
::::::[gg1] G13 Elsinore Sword

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[aa0] Introduction

I used to be an advocate for two-handed weapons before Pioneer of Iria update came out, and to this day, I can argue for them. But ever since dual-wielding got introduced in G4, tables have turned, and I either had to stay and defend a dying weapon style, or get on the DPS weapon bandwagon and take advantage of what dual-wield had to offer.

Enough about being ridiculed in my past though. When G8 and G9 came out, they changed the dynamics of two-handed weapons in ways some players couldn't understand at first. After some recalculating, there were simply enough data that placed the two styles of Melee DPS as distinct methods, rather than one overshadowing the other. I wrote this guide simply as a reference, as I've been encountering questions of two-handed vs. dual-wield quite often now from friends and guildies. So instead of reiterating myself, I'd put down the info here to refer to.

The focus of this guide is to peer into the practical and absolute values of both Melee styles, and (on a very small scale) their uses besides damage. I'll mostly be ignoring Balance and Injury. For the most part, this guide is basically a lot of numbers crunched together, so it's a long wall of calculations I did for the guide's purpose. I'm going to apologize in advanced, since I have bias towards two-handed and Smash in this guide, but for the most part, it's facts and not opinions.

Before any further, I'd like to inform that I am ignoring the Final Hit skill in this guide. While it is a powerful Human skill if used correctly, the difference of Final Hit between dual-wield and other weapons is so wide, it would be another guide, and I'm very sure most of everybody know about the caliber of this difference anyway.

*Credits to Ohi/Bokusatsu for the Giant pictures~

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[bb0] What are these terms?


http://i54.tinypic.com/29n9f6s.png http://i51.tinypic.com/20ap8io.png

[bb1] Two-handed refers to the Melee weapons that requires both hands to wield. They are usually large or bulky in inventory size (1x5 or 2x4 inventory squares), and take up the right hand slot of the equipment window. Because they are two-handed weapons, they take up both hands and thus invalidating the left hand slot from use. The only exceptions are Giants as they can use a two-handed sword with a shield, and Elves as they cannot use any two-handed weapon at all, besides Brionac.


http://i56.tinypic.com/2rpsfwn.png http://i51.tinypic.com/32zrk1h.png

[bb2] Dual-wield refers to the style of having a single-handed weapon on each weapon slot. The class of weapons that can be dual-wielded is race-restricted.

Human = Sword (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Swords_List)
Giant = Blunt (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Blunt_Weapons_List)
Elf = None

However, the make of the weapon can be wielded with another make. For example, a Human (Sword) can dual-wield a Longsword with a Broadsword.

______________________________

[cc0] What are their basic differences?

[cc1] Two-Handed
Usually will be 2 Hit and have Very Slow speed.
Gains a 20% damage multiplier and 5% Critical rate when performing Smash.
Elves cannot wield two-handed weapons other than Brionac.
Humans cannot wield two-handed blunts.
Giants can wield a two-handed sword with a shield.
(Giant-only) Two-Handed Blunt can access Full Swing (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Full_swing)'s actual potential.

[cc2] Dual-Wield
Make of weapons can be mixed together. Ex. Fluted Short Sword with Battle Short Sword
Class of weapons cannot be mixed together. Ex. Gladius with Mace.
(Human-only) Dual-Wield Swords lock a target in place with Final Hit (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Final_Hit) instead of knocking the target back.
Stats of each weapon are calculated individually instead of an average of the two, except for speed and stun.
Single hit skills (such as Smash or Windmill) have different damage/Critical/Injury/Balance calculations. Damage formula for dual-wield is known as...

[(Base damage`) + (first weapon damage) + (second weapon damage)] * (% damage multiplier of skill)

`We shall ignore base damage for simplicity.

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[dd0] The Question: Which is Better?

[dd1] Before G8, dual-wield considerably outclassed two-handed weapons in the important meta-game known as damage. Dual-wield can hit two times per input, meaning the total damage of a single click could (and very often) outdamage a single click of a two-handed weapon. The single-hit skill formula for dual-wield was by far more generous than the base formula, giving the style a damage edge in Smash, Windmill, and Counterattack. It was clear that dual-wield was preferred method for high damage, reducing two-handed usage by a large amount. With the exception of Giants and their Full Swing (which relied on a two-handed blunt to deal true damage), two-handed users were usually ridiculed for their choice.

[dd2] This mindset all changed when G8 buffed two-handed weapons by increasing Smash damage by 20% in a multiplicative calculation, and increased Smash's chance of landing a Critical Hit by 5%.

Since the 20% damage increase is multiplicative, Rank 1 Smash with a two-handed weapon gives 600% damage instead of 500%, since 20% of 500% is 100%. That's a huge percentage leap if it wasn't that obvious.

G8 and onward also gave a helping hand to two-handed weapons by implementing specific damage enchants catered only to two-handed weapons, such as Crocodile enchant. These specific enchants increase max damage by a large amount, much more so than regular weapon enchants.

[dd3] As it stands right now, two-handed and dual-wield have become almost diametrical ways of dealing damage. Mainly, the usage of one style usually dictates what DPS Melee style the player is currently using, which is either Smash (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Smash) or Windmill (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Windmill).

Two-Handed = Smash (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Smash)
Dual-Wield = Windmill (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Windmill)*

*For simplicity, Windmill vs. 1 target.

[dd4] So, how do we see this damage difference? For starters, let's look at the most expensive base swords one can buy from NPCs.

Calculated numbers that are superior are italicized.

Gladius
Damage: 15~32

Claymore
Damage: 28~55

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

2x Gladius
(15~32 + 15~32) * 250% = 75~160 damage

Claymore
(28~55) * 250% = 70~137.5 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

2x Gladius
(15~32 + 15~32) * 500% = 150~320 damage

Claymore
(28~55) * 600% = 168~330 damage

As you can see, dual-wielding two Gladii produced a higher Windmill damage than the Claymore. On the other end, Claymore exceeded dual-wielding Gladii in Smash. This proves that the extra 20% Smash damage increase is capable of making two-handed weapons a contender for damage. Even at Rank F Smash...

2x Gladius
(15~32 + 15~32) * 200% = 60~128 damage

Claymore
(28~55) * 240% = 67.2~132 damage

[dd5] For more experienced players, here's some usual weapon setups for mid-range level Human users:

Cypress Broadsword (222 + dmg gem) of Spike
Damage: 5.33~97

Necromancer Claymore (222 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Damage: 40.972~162.6

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

2x Cypress Broadsword (222 + dmg gem) of Spike
(5.33~97 + 5.33~97) * 250% = 26.65~485 damage

Necromancer Claymore (222 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(40.972~162.6) * 250% = 102.43~406.5 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

2x Cypress Broadsword (222 + dmg gem) of Spike
(5.33~97 + 5.33~97) * 500% = 53.3~970 damage

Necromancer Claymore (222 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(40.972~162.6) * 600% = 245.832~975.6 damage

[dd6] For mid-level Giant equipments:

Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
Damage: 22.333~105

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Damage: 89.446~159.8

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
(22.333~105 + 22.333~105) * 250% = 111.665~525 damage

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(89.446~159.8) * 250% = 223.615~399.5 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
(22.333~105 + 22.333~105) * 500% = 223.33~1050 damage

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(89.446~159.8) * 600% = 536.676~958.8 damage

Here's an exception case for Giants in terms of Smash, but that matters little. I'll explain that later on.

[dd7] For currently endgame equipment as a Human:

Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn
Damage: 6.662~119.6

Necromancer Highlander Claymore (275 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Damage: 45.972~172.6

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

2x Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn
(6.662~119.6 + 6.662~119.6) * 250% = 33.31~598 damage

Necromancer Highlander Claymore (275 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(45.972~172.6) * 250% = 114.93~431.5 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

2x Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn
(6.662~119.6 + 6.662~119.6) * 500% = 66.62~1196 damage

Necromancer Highlander Claymore (275 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(45.972~172.6) * 600% = 275.832~1035.6 damage

[dd8] For currently endgame equipment as a Giant:

Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn
Damage: 14.662~118.6

Necromancer Broad Axe (221 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Damage: 36.646~174.8

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

2x Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn
(14.662~118.6 + 14.662~118.6) * 250% = 73.31~593 damage

Necromancer Broad Axe (221 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(36.646~174.8) * 250% = 91.615~437 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

2x Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn
(14.662~118.6 + 14.662~118.6) * 500% = 146.62~1186 damage

Necromancer Broad Axe (221 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
(36.646~174.8) * 600% = 219.876~1048.8 damage

[dd9] For all of you who are Spirit Weapon enthusiasts (using Wiki's values), here are the Human choices:

Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword
Damage: 58~189

Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
Damage: 109~243

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn
(58~189 + 6.662~119.6) * 250% = 161.665~771.5 damage

Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
(109~243) * 250% = 272.5~607.5 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn
(58~189 + 6.662~119.6) * 500% = 323.31~1543 damage

Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
(109~243) * 600% = 654~1458 damage

[dd10] Giant Spirit Weapons:

Level 40 Spirit Iron Mace (since Wiki only got up to 40 at this point in typing)
Damage: 18~192

Level 50 Spirit Broadaxe
Damage: 105~228

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

Level 40 Spirit Iron Mace + Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn
(18~192 + 14.662~118.6) * 250% = 81.655~776.5 damage

Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword**
(109~243) * 250% = 272.5~607.5 damage

Level 50 Spirit Broadaxe
(105~228) * 250% = 262.5~570 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

Level 40 Spirit Iron Mace + Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn
(18~192 + 14.662~118.6) * 500% = 163.31~1553 damage

Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword**
(109~243) * 600% = 654~1458 damage

Level 50 Spirit Broadaxe
(105~228) * 600% = 630~1368 damage

**Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword has higher max damage than Level 50 Broad Axe, so I included that. However, the Broad Axe is also included because many Giants have that Spirit (mainly for Full Swing), so they can see its power in other skills.

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[ee0] Analysis of Previous Section Data and Applicable Factors – What does this all mean?

Looking at all the calculations, we can see that in all of them, [B]dual-wield is superior to two-handed in max Windmill damage.

The interesting paradigm however is in the Smash category.

In the base 2x Gladius vs. Claymore scenario, Claymore outright bested the 2x Gladius in both Smash min damage and max damage. So forth for Necromancer Claymore of Crocodile vs. Cypress Broadsword of Spike. However, in the latter scenarios, dual-wield started to surpass two-handed in max Smash damage.

Does this invalidate the statement that two-handed weapons are better for Smash? Yes and no.

Before I go further on that, I have to mention the very important factor in my calculating: I only calculated and compared weapon stats, with their own upgrades and enchants. I excluded the other half of the damage source, the user.

Because Windmill will always remain a constant 250% damage multiplier (excluding Elf Windmill) for both two-handed and dual-wield, the increase in damage on both styles will be affected in the same manner by Windmill. Thus, dual-wield will mostly trump two-handed in max Windmill damage.

But Smash behaves differently for damage increase because of its separate multiplier for the two styles. Dual-wield 500% vs. two-handed 600% does not seem as much of a difference at first, but in terms of damage increase over base damage intervals, the one with the higher multiplier of increase will tie and eventually surpass the lower multiplier, given the right amount of base damage.

[ee1] For example, let's compare 2x Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn [119 + 119 = 238 max damage] vs. Necromancer Broad Axe (221 + dmg gem) of Crocodile [175 max damage]:


http://i52.tinypic.com/2q3rolz.png

When the user has 130 max damage from other than the weapon's stats and enchants, the max Smash damage suddenly becomes equal between the two style, and every additional max damage after 130 begins to push two-handed Smash damage above dual-wield Smash damage.

Is a base Melee max damage of 130 possible? It certainly is. 200 base Strength gives 80 max damage, Rank 1 Combat Mastery (Giant) gives 20 max damage, and the remaining 30 max damage come from simple clothing or armor enchants/title. Is over 130 Melee max damage possible? Indeed. Therefore, the Broad Axe will outdamage the dual-wielded Warhammers in Smash in not only theoretical situations, but easy everyday situations as well.

[ee2] Another example, 2x Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn [120 + 120 = 240 max damage] vs. Necromancer Highlander Claymore (275 + dmg gem) of Crocodile [173 max damage]:


http://i52.tinypic.com/2mdjrqx.png

This is harder to reach, as the base damage where the Smash damage becomes equal is 162, but is still possible. 200 Strength (80 max damage) + Rank 1 Human Combat Mastery (18 max damage) + 64 max damage from clothing or armor enchants/title. Is it possible to exceed 162 base max damage? Yes, without going into current endgame damage enchants.

[ee3] As for Spirit Weapons... Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Wyllow War Sword (243) of Horn [189 + 120 = 309 max damage] vs. Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword [243 max damage]:


http://i54.tinypic.com/2efhqmu.png

The point of equal Smash damage is 87 base max damage.

[ee4] Back to the question. Does the statement hold true that two-handed weapons are better for Smash? Yes and no. Yes, in that, in the absolute endgame max damage possible, [B]two-handed weapons will outperform dual-wield in max Smash damage, due to the subtle but important 20% Smash damage increase. No, in that, two-handed weapons can be weaker than dual-wield in Smash if the user does not have enough base max damage to support the two-handed weapon.

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[ff0] Is there any differences that actually make an impact besides max damage?

From a non-racial standpoint, there are differences that subtle at first, but can generally change a person's approach to either style.

[ff1] 1. Besides max damage, two-handed weapons usually have more min damage than their one-handed counterparts. When comparing dual-wield average damage to two-handed, dual-wield have high max damage and low min damage, while two-handed can have lower max damage, but higher min damage. This results in two-handed weapons having more stable and consistent damage output, compared to dual-wield. However, dual-wield can produce more average damage output than two-handed in normal attacks, due to combining the average damage of both weapons to get the final average damage.

Example, using the average damage formula [Average damage = Max * Balance + Min * (1 - Balance)] and assuming 80% Balance:

2x Cypress Broadsword (222 + dmg gem) of Spike
97 * 80% + 5.33 * (100% - 80%) = 78.666 average damage per sword
Or 157.332 average damage combined

Necromancer Claymore (222 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
162.6 * 80% + 40.972 * (100% - 80%) = 138.2744 average damage

Usually, because of the nature of Balance, dual-wield will more likely hit their max damage enough to make their low min damage nearly insignificant. Two-handed follows the same rules, but due to their lower max damage, their average damage will suffer and thus will be lower than dual-wield, while their higher min damage won't change their average damage as much due to being at 80% Balance. The exception is having incredibly higher min damage while maintaining similar max damage.

It is important to also note that Critical Hits is affected by max damage only. When considering this, Critical (a very practical factor) favors high max damage, which is something dual-wield provides more often than two-handed. When Critical is added into the average damage formula [Average damage with Critical = Max * Balance + Min * (1 - Balance) + (Critical Rate * Max * Critical Rank Multiplier)], assuming a constant 30% Rank 1 Critical rate against all targets:

2x Cypress Broadsword (222 + dmg gem) of Spike
97 * 80% + 5.33 * (100% - 80%) + (30% * 97 * 150%) = 122.316 average damage per sword
Or 244.632 average damage combined

Necromancer Claymore (222 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
162.6 * 80% + 40.972 * (100% - 80%) + (30%* 162.6 * 150%) = 211.44 average damage

Thus, dual-wield will also produce more average damage with Critical than two-handed in normal attacks.

For the important Melee skills, Windmill's multiplier will always be the same for both two-handed and dual-wield. Thus, dual-wield Windmill will have a higher average damage output than two-handed, Critical or not. However, is two-handed 20% Smash damage bonus enough to produce a higher average damage than dual-wield Smash in a practical situation?

Comparing Rank 1 Smash average damage:

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
Rank 1 Smash damage: 223.33~1050
1050 * 80% + 233.33 (100% - 80%) = 886.666 average Smash damage

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Rank 1 Smash damage: 536.676~958.8
958.8 * 80% + 536.676 * (100% - 80%) = 874.3752 average Smash damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash average damage with Critical:

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
Rank 1 Smash average damage: 886.666
886.666 + (30% * 1050 * 150%) = 1359.166 average Smash damage with Critical

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Rank 1 Smash average damage: 874.3752
874.3752 + (30% * 958.8 * 150%) = 1305.8352 average Smash damage with Critical

Does this mean dual-wield will have higher average Smash damage than two-handed? Yes, but only if the user has 0 base damage. To provide a counterpoint, we shall provide a user with 30~70 base Melee damage.

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
Rank 1 Smash damage with 30~70 user base damage: 373.33~1400

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Rank 1 Smash damage with 30~70 user base damage: 716.676~1378.8

Comparing Rank 1 Smash average damage with 30~70 user base damage:

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
1400 * 80% + 373.33 * (100% - 80%) = 1194.666 average Smash damage

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
1378.8 * 80% + 716.676 * (100% - 80%) = 1246.3752 average Smash damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash average damage with Critical with 30~70 user base damage:

2x Cypress Iron Mace (195 + dmg gem) of Spike
Rank 1 Smash average damage with 30~70 user base damage: 1194.666
1194.666 + (30% * 1400 * 150%) = 1824.666 average Smash damage with Critical

Necromancer Battle Hammer (258 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
Rank 1 Smash average damage with 30~70 user base damage: 1246.3752
1246.3752 + (30% * 1378.8 * 150%) = 1866.8352 average Smash damage with Critical

With the practical user Melee damage, the Battle Hammer now has higher average Smash damage, due to min damage from the user (which is less than half of the max damage). The Iron Maces still have higher max damage in regular hits and Smash, but the average Smash damage of Iron Maces is lower than the Battle Hammer, even with Critical calculated. This gap in average Smash damage will widen even further as the user obtains more Melee damage. As a result, two-handed average Smash damage will exceed dual-wield average Smash damage, Critical or not, if the user has the adequate amount of Melee damage to support the two-handed weapon.


http://i51.tinypic.com/2qle5tz.png

[ff2] 2. Giants can wield a two-handed sword while using a shield, a racial feature that gives offensive power to their defensive capabilities, which is something dual-wield barely offers. In an overall view, it gives a two-handed sword's power and stun to its user while boosting defense, even without upgrades. It rivals both two-handed weapon utility and the one-handed weapon/shield combination.

Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn + Corundum Kite Shield (+2 Defense upgrade) of Alteration
(14.662~118.6) + (8.325~16) = 22.987~134.6 damage

Necromancer Dustin Silver Knight Sword (215 + dmg gem) of Crocodile + Corundum Vales Shield (+3 Defense upgrade with gem) of Alteration
(54.646~157.8) + (8.325~16) = 62.971~173.8 damage

The 20% Smash damage bonus boosts the two-handed sword/shield DPS even more. Keep in mind that Crocodile enchant reduces HP by 40 and Defense by 5, which limits the defensive capabilities of the latter choice against the former. In my opinion, that doesn't really dent the defensive abilities of a shield or HP pool of a Giant.

[ff3] 3. I won't get into the cost of the weapons and enchants themselves, but the repair cost is of importance to some people. Thus, here's a quick look:

Cypress Broadsword (222 + dmg gem) of Spike
98% repair cost per point = 1406g + 140.6g (+10% from Spike) = 1546.6g

1546.6 * 2 = 3093.2g for two of the same weapon

Wyllow Warhammer (180 + dmg gem) of Horn
98% repair cost per point = 1077g + 1077g (+100% from Wyllow) + 1077g (+100% from Horn) = 3231g

3231 * 2 = 6462g for two of the same weapon

Necromancer Broad Axe (222 + dmg gem) of Crocodile
98% repair cost per point = 5937g + 5937g (+100% from Necromancer) + 2968.5 (+50% from Crocodile) = 14842.5g

And so forth. In general, two-handed weapons will be more expensive to maintain than dual-wield. This is especially true when enchants with repair cost multipliers are applied. Because of this, Dragon Blades are usually favored by some two-handed users for its low repair cost while still offering fairly strong offensive capabilities.

[ff4] 4. Other differences:

Because two-handed weapons are usually slower than one-handed weapons, their stun time in a single hit is longer. More importantly, this factors into Windmill, in which most two-handed weapons have a longer knock down period than one-handed weapons/dual-wield can.

The chosen style also usually dictates which of the two stats the user is striving for: Damage or Critical. Since Windmill ignores Protection for calculating Critical rate, Windmill players normally obtain a steady 30%+ Critical rate, then focus on damage. Smash does not ignore Protection to calculate Critical rate, so some Smash players aim to get a decent Critical rate first, prioritizing over damage. Two-handed Smash alleviates Critical rate by 5%, however two-handed weapons generally have lower Critical rate than their one-handed counterparts.

Most useful two-handed enchants have some severe penalties to them, usually in the form of lowering the defensive capabilities. Whether or not this actually matters is how the user plays, as there are players who have low HP builds that wield two-handed weapons just for their enchants.

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[gg0] Afterthoughts

The only thing I want to say is (thus is why this afterthought is here) that even if two-handed weapons got their buffs, it's not going to shake off the preconception of their uses in combat compared to dual-wield. Instead, it's better off to think of two-handed and dual-wield as two sides of a coin: different enough to not compete, but are choices that can exist alongside each other, similar to Melee to other skill sets.

Regarding that, I do have to make a tiny suggestion. While the idea of Mabinogi applies to encouraging the players to use whichever weapon they want, I do recommend that...

a). Melee players know the situation beforehand, and prepare their gears appropriately. Two-handed or dual-wield, whichever is better suited.

b). The player should have good base Melee damage and financial income before using a two-handed weapon full-time.

[gg1] One last calculation for fun.

Using ACME's G12 Human Max Melee Damage guide (http://mabination.com/threads/12063-ACME-s-Layout-of-Human-Max-Melee-Damage-in-G12-Enchants-amp-Equips) and tweaking some enchant choices:

Extraordinary Clothes of White Horse = +14 max, +7 min

Fleet Heavy Boots of Raven = +17 max, +4 min

Steel Needle Gauntlets of Wild Boar = +19 max

Corundum Tork Cap of Delusional = +14 max

Corundum Accessory of Sundrop x 2 = +18 max

Total damage from non-weapon enchants = +82 max, +11 min

Rank 1 Combat Mastery (Human) = +18 max, +8 min

Rank 1 Sword Mastery = +20 max, +10 min

999 base Strength = +399.6 max, +332.667 min

Total Melee damage from Strength and skills = +437.6 max, +350.667 min

Total Melee damage from user = +519.6 max, +361.667 min

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Elsinore Sword (adding the two swords together for single hit skills)
(361.667~519.6 + 58~189 + 95~190) = 514.667~898.6 damage

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
(361.667~519.6 + 109~243) = 470.667~762.6 damage

When using the Master of Shock title, max damage is raised by 4%

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Elsinore Sword (adding the two swords together for single hit skills)
898.6 * 104% = 934.544 max damage

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
762.6 * 104% = 793.104 max damage

Comparing Rank 1 Windmill:

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Elsinore Sword
(514.667~934.544) * 250% = 1286.6675~2336.36 damage

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
(470.667~793.104) * 250% = 1176.6675~1982.76 damage

Comparing Rank 1 Smash:

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Bastard Sword + Elsinore Sword
(514.667~934.544) * 500% = 2573.335~4672.72 damage

User Melee damage + Level 50 Spirit Dustin Silver Knight Sword
(470.667~793.104) * 600% = 2824.002~4758.624 damage

[Lie]

Reserved. Suggestions/corrections/comments/whatever are welcomed~

[Science]

Really helpful for me, since I always wanna waste money on well enchanted 2h's :D

Guess I'll stick with Broads until I max out STR and finish enchants :U

[Mentosftw]

Heh, I chuckled at the last note thing. It shows that two handed swords still maintain a sort of superiority even with the g13 sword and a lvl 50 bas.

[Screenhog]

Very nice guide. Thanks ~

[Singleuseonly]

Heh, I chuckled at the last note thing. It shows that two handed swords still maintain a sort of superiority even with the g13 sword and a lvl 50 bas.

I thought the last calculation showed that dual wielding with the 2 best possible swords still beats 2h swords even at 999 str o.0

[Lie]

Thanks for your inputs, and glad it helped.

[Mentosftw]

I thought the last calculation showed that dual wielding with the 2 best possible swords still beats 2h swords even at 999 str o.0

Yes, but only by a minuscule amount. I'm talking about smash of course. If you look at the 2h sword's minimum damage, it's MUCH higher than the minimum damage (by 201) of those two one handed swords. Although the dual wield's maximum damage is slightly higher, the dustin's smash is much more consistent and may very well outdo the dual wield in terms of long term average damage.

[Lie]

Average Smash Damage for that dual-wield option is 3595.067.

Average Smash Damage for that ego Dustin option is 3605.484.

That's for non-crit though. Formula for average damage with critical is (Average Damage + [Critical rate * max damage * Critical rank multiplier]), right? I haven't bothered to evaluate and prove average damage formula with critical. So if it's [.3 * max Smash dmg * 1.5], then...

Elsinore + ego Bastard = 5346.917

Ego Dustin = 5340.224

Minuscule differences, if you ask me.

[Taliya]

*starts a slow, graduating clap*

That was awesome! For the longest time I was using shield and sword on my giant. I've just recently switched to dual wield. I have to say that as an experienced fighter in both styles I really enjoyed your guide! I had just about given up on shield and sword. I think I'm going to try and make the dustin and vales shield set I wanted again. Its always good to have options!

(as for two-handed blunts I have a broad axe ego and I love it! <3)

[Intaine]

For Giant 2h weapons, besides WM and Smash there is also GFS to consider, 900-1040% dmg does give an enormous benefit to wielding these weapons during transformation.

[frozenwilderness]

hm, idk, looking at this guide.. it still looks like dual wield is the more practical of the two, considering the fact that when you wm, you're doing damage on multiple enemies most of the time, so your multiplier for wm is actually going to be more than that of smash most of the time in any grindy type of dungeon or sm.

[Justified]

I haven't bothered to evaluate and prove average damage formula with critical. So if it's [.3 * max Smash dmg * 1.5], then...

/recycle from older thread where this came up

Data pool is small, but I thought it was sufficient enough. Didn't see the point in wasting more of my own Claymore durability when I don't think the burden of proof lies on the side with popular belief.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2n0pj84.jpg

[Phunkie]

Fantastic guide, Zid!!

Loved all the numbers and how carefully you described each set of weapon combinations!

Will definitely help a lot of people. :) Also, thanks for tagging the guide. haha

[Lie]

I definitely know it will help a lot of people. xD Since I'm redirecting people who have similar kinds of questions to this guide.

Guide Update:

Fixed some erroneous calculations

Fixed some grammar

Changed "Claymore" to "Dustin Silver Knight Sword" in Section [ff2]

Rewrote Section [gg1] to include endgame enchants and stats to extend calculations


hm, idk, looking at this guide.. it still looks like dual wield is the more practical of the two, considering the fact that when you wm, you're doing damage on multiple enemies most of the time, so your multiplier for wm is actually going to be more than that of smash most of the time in any grindy type of dungeon or sm.

I didn't want to compare Windmill and Smash utilities because that's a whole other guide to work with, so I leave that to the readers' preferences. I know Windmill hits multiple targets and ignore Protection for Critical, but for the sake of getting the guide's point across, I limited the skill's usage to be against one target, and ignored Critical altogether.

Also, dual wield being the more practical of the two styles... Well, I could say the same for two-handed. Both can use Windmill and Smash. It's just, one style will best the other in one skill. Since both styles can use Smash/Windmill and is good at one of those skills, both styles are often of equal practicality in my opinion. I'm sure the majority of the Mabinogi community doesn't agree with me on that, and because of that, I avoided saying, in the guide, which style is more practical. Or even more versatile, for that matter.

I think the best way I can give this viewpoint is to compare Elf Magnum Shot/Crash Shot and Giant Smash/Windmill. Sure, Crash Shot seems more practical(?) than Elf Magnum Shot, but that is not the case in reality. The same reasoning can be used for Windmill and Giant Smash.

[Kaeporo]

There's some really good stuff in there, +Rep

1. In the section that makes note of the advantages provided by having increased minimum damage you should make the reader aware of the fact that critical bonus damage consists entirely of modified maximum damage.

2. Also, I don't think the Sword of Elsinore can be duel wielded.

3. Lastly, perhaps you should mention weapon masteries?

[pataterose]

2. Also, I don't think the Sword of Elsinore can be duel wielded.

it has been confirmed that it can in another thread...

[frozenwilderness]

I didn't want to compare Windmill and Smash utilities because that's a whole other guide to work with, so I leave that to the readers' preferences. I know Windmill hits multiple targets and ignore Protection for Critical, but for the sake of getting the guide's point across, I limited the skill's usage to be against one target, and ignored Critical altogether.

Also, dual wield being the more practical of the two styles... Well, I could say the same for two-handed. Both can use Windmill and Smash. It's just, one style will best the other in one skill. Since both styles can use Smash/Windmill and is good at one of those skills, both styles are often of equal practicality in my opinion. I'm sure the majority of the Mabinogi community doesn't agree with me on that, and because of that, I avoided saying, in the guide, which style is more practical. Or even more versatile, for that matter.

I think the best way I can give this viewpoint is to compare Elf Magnum Shot/Crash Shot and Giant Smash/Windmill. Sure, Crash Shot seems more practical(?) than Elf Magnum Shot, but that is not the case in reality. The same reasoning can be used for Windmill and Giant Smash.Yep, personally I prefer wm over smash, just because I really only find smash useful when you're facing a single enemy for the most part, which isn't the case for the majority of SMs/dungeons. However, it is quite useful for some bosses, so I think it really just depends on what the player's focus is. On the other hand, I don't really think elf crash shot vs elf magnum is equivalent to comparing wm and smash.. similar maybe, but not equivalent, due to the fact that crash shot is the one with longer load time, and magnum is absolutely spammable and loads even faster than wm.

[Lie]

There's some really good stuff in there, +Rep

1. In the section that makes note of the advantages provided by having increased minimum damage you should make the reader aware of the fact that critical bonus damage consists entirely of modified maximum damage.

2. Also, I don't think the Sword of Elsinore can be duel wielded.

3. Lastly, perhaps you should mention weapon masteries?

1. I will do that, thanks.

2. I'm sure it can be dual wielded. It's been confirmed before, and the wiki makes no mention against it.

3. I will add Sword/Blunt Masteries once G13 gets around and I calculate it alongside practical levels of Strength and enchants.


Yep, personally I prefer wm over smash, just because I really only find smash useful when you're facing a single enemy for the most part, which isn't the case for the majority of SMs/dungeons. However, it is quite useful for some bosses, so I think it really just depends on what the player's focus is. On the other hand, I don't really think elf crash shot vs elf magnum is equivalent to comparing wm and smash.. similar maybe, but not equivalent, due to the fact that crash shot is the one with longer load time, and magnum is absolutely spammable and loads even faster than wm.

Agreed.

EDIT:

Guide Update:

Greatly expanded Section [ff1] to include average damage with Critical, average damage of Smash, average damage with Critical of Smash, and how user base damage affects Smash average damage.

[Cardplayer]

something you might want to add in htere... idk xD

but you also have to understand duelwielding dings twice ;D

that is it activates the defence and protection twice... while single only activates it once. doesnt apply to smash or wm (i think?) but still apllies to weapons in general x3

my 2 cents

[Hei]

something you might want to add in htere... idk xD

but you also have to understand duelwielding dings twice ;D

that is it activates the defence and protection twice... while single only activates it once. doesnt apply to smash or wm (i think?) but still apllies to weapons in general x3

my 2 cents

The damage reduced from activating defense matters a little but it doesn't matter for protection, since it's based on a percentage of the damage you do.
Unless you were talking about the chances of critical, which does change because it's 2 hits vs 1.

Though normal hitting is rarely done except to finish mobs so that doesn't really matter for most people.

[Cardplayer]

i know it doesnt matter to smashers and stuff im just saying if we actually look at "which ones is better" its something to consider, mages for instance arent going to load a skill if a monsters so close they have to resort to mele. and ya your right protection doesnt matter, except for crit, where depending on the prot of the monster could go for a higher crit weapon

[EndlessDreams]

i know it doesnt matter to smashers and stuff im just saying if we actually look at "which ones is better" its something to consider, mages for instance arent going to load a skill if a monsters so close they have to resort to mele. and ya your right protection doesnt matter, except for crit, where depending on the prot of the monster could go for a higher crit weapon

Well, for majority of the melee people, it is a combination of smash/wm spam for maximum damage. Both protection and defense of a monster will take off the same amount of damage for Smash/WM.

It is usually un-wise to normal attack a monster as you get into higher dungeon for fear of PDs, not to mention you won't deal much damage compared to Smash/WM.

[Cardplayer]

Well, for majority of the melee people, it is a combination of smash/wm spam for maximum damage. Both protection and defense of a monster will take off the same amount of damage for Smash/WM.

It is usually un-wise to normal attack a monster as you get into higher dungeon for fear of PDs, not to mention you won't deal much damage compared to Smash/WM.

i know all this im just saying if we are really comparing which one is better its something to consider Dx

[TheKartheus]

Seeing as the final stats had the DSK ego win very small, and that was with 999 base strength, I hardly think 2-handed swords are worth it. With that set you gave (which by the way is not the best set I have found) it would take another 320-some damage to have them do equal damage. This requires more base strength than possible, even in g13. For humans, 2-handed swords become almost obsolete.

I would like to point out, however, that when supergrades come out (upgrades AFTER gem upgrades) you can increase critical damage by up to 62% on a highlander claymore. This means that instead of doing 2.5x damage, you would do 3.12x damage, which makes the highlander claymore much more usefull than a 2h ego, assuming you have good critical rate.

[Lie]

I plan to include R/S upgrades into the non-ego damage comparison, once after either people can write down the results, or I do the upgrades and recording myself on KR test.

It's true though, the R/S upgrades change damage dynamics of every weapon, so I'm definitely going to include that later on. I'll get some G13 enchants into the mix too.

[Justified]

All the ego comments have been biased saying "this is useless because of over-upgrades" when actually all egos will be useless.

If R upgrades stack when dual wielding, then 1H Sword egos will be rendered useless as well, not just 2H Sword egos. Multiplying damage is almost always better than adding damage.

[TheKartheus]

All the ego comments have been biased saying "this is useless because of over-upgrades" when actually all egos will be useless.

If R upgrades stack when dual wielding, then 1H Sword egos will be rendered useless as well, not just 2H Sword egos. Multiplying damage is almost always better than adding damage.
The problem is, on war swords currently the most you can get is +42% crit damage if I remember right. Also, you would have to dual wield those in order to keep the same +crit, having one with full overgrades and one without would give less of a bonus.

Assuming dual wield war sword with best enchants/overgrades the crit smash damage would be this (120+120)*5*2.92 = 3504
Dual weilding a maxed out bsword + Elsinore sword is (189+190)*5*2.5 = 4737
Of course, the minimum damage on the war swords is barely over 0 with the enchants, further helping ego/elsinore sword.

In g13 dual weilding becomes the way to deal out the most damage, even with smash. This also means that as of g13, ego bswords become less usefull, as the crit from a muramasa ego will be quite usefull when performing smashes, which was before reserved for 2h swords.

[Justified]

The problem is, on war swords currently the most you can get is +42% crit damage if I remember right. Also, you would have to dual wield those in order to keep the same +crit, having one with full overgrades and one without would give less of a bonus.

Assuming dual wield war sword with best enchants/overgrades the crit smash damage would be this (120+120)*5*2.92 = 3504
Dual weilding a maxed out bsword + Elsinore sword is (189+190)*5*2.5 = 4737
Of course, the minimum damage on the war swords is barely over 0 with the enchants, further helping ego/elsinore sword.

In g13 dual weilding becomes the way to deal out the most damage, even with smash. This also means that as of g13, ego bswords become less usefull, as the crit from a muramasa ego will be quite usefull when performing smashes, which was before reserved for 2h swords.

That actually make more sense. I was assuming that the crit boosts were like a "status" bonus or something, so dual-wielding them would produce +84% crit. The way you describe it is more like a weapon-only effect like Stiff or something.

Taking the above list of enchanted items and substituting Confident Earthquake plus Steel Needle Peaceful, we get around 95 Max. If we use 600 Str as a rough guideline (high-end total in trans), then we come up with...

Base damage
600 * 0.4 = 240
240 + 95 = 335

Dual Warswords (Willow-Horn)
335 + 120 + 120 = 570
575 * 5 * 2.92 = 8,395 (88.97%)

Bastard Ego + Elsinore
335 + 179 + 180 = 714
714 * 5 * 2.5 = 8,925 (94.60%)

Highlander Claymore (Necro-Croc)
335 + 169 = 504
504 * 6 * 3.12 = 9,434 (100.00%)

Dustin Sword Ego
335 + 243 = 578
578 * 6 * 2.5 = 8,670 (91.90%)

Highlander Claymore > Bastard Ego + Elsinore > Dustin Ego > Dual Warswords

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I wasn't expecting that either. Though it seems like a non-Ego 2H sword is better than a 1H Ego paired with the famed Elsinore by a significant 500 damage. It still has it's drawbacks of low critical and lower Windmill damage, but the point is that 2H swords will still be a viable form of combat even when G13 comes to add all this confusion into the mix.

PS.
I forgot to include the Highlander gem upgrade, which is another 4Max (getting multiplied to ~76 damage) but it already wins so I'll refrain from re-re-re-editting.

PSS.
Since the Sword of Elsinore requires the Rosemary Gloves, it loses out on Steel Needle Peaceful. If it's able to be enchanted, the best enchants I know of that goes on Cloth would be Corundum Burst Knight for a change of -12 Max (multiplied to -150 damage) and -10 Crit. That means that the Crit Smash damage gap is now roughly 725 damage. The average Crit between Bastard Ego and Elsinore is 34.5, reduced to 24.5 considering the loss of Steel Needle. Still beats the Highlander's 10 Crit though.

PSSS.
A regular Claymore can be upgraded to 30 Crit while maintaining 163 Max. This gives it 6.5 more Crit than the Bastard Ego + Elsinore, while still having a lead of ~620 damage Crit Smash.


Okay srsly done now lol.

[ikotomi]

PSS.
Since the Sword of Elsinore requires the Rosemary Gloves, it loses out on Steel Needle Peaceful. If it's able to be enchanted, the best enchants I know of that goes on Cloth would be Corundum Burst Knight for a change of -12 Max (multiplied to -150 damage) and -10 Crit. That means that the Crit Smash damage gap is now roughly 725 damage. The average Crit between Bastard Ego and Elsinore is 34.5, reduced to 24.5 considering the loss of Steel Needle. Still beats the Highlander's 10 Crit though.

Highlander after upgrades should have over 30 crit though, so it's even better. I think we've already determined that it's broken one way or another though.

[Mentosftw]

In reality. Shieldless melee is impractical.

[TheKartheus]

That actually make more sense. I was assuming that the crit boosts were like a "status" bonus or something, so dual-wielding them would produce +84% crit. The way you describe it is more like a weapon-only effect like Stiff or something.

Taking the above list of enchanted items and substituting Confident Earthquake plus Steel Needle Peaceful, we get around 95 Max. If we use 600 Str as a rough guideline (high-end total in trans), then we come up with...

Base damage
600 * 0.4 = 240
240 + 95 = 335

Dual Warswords (Willow-Horn)
335 + 120 + 120 = 570
575 * 5 * 2.92 = 8,395 (88.97%)

Bastard Ego + Elsinore
335 + 179 + 180 = 714
714 * 5 * 2.5 = 8,925 (94.60%)

Highlander Claymore (Necro-Croc)
335 + 169 = 504
504 * 6 * 3.12 = 9,434 (100.00%)

Dustin Sword Ego
335 + 243 = 578
578 * 6 * 2.5 = 8,670 (91.90%)

Highlander Claymore > Bastard Ego + Elsinore > Dustin Ego > Dual Warswords

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I wasn't expecting that either. Though it seems like a non-Ego 2H sword is better than a 1H Ego paired with the famed Elsinore by a significant 500 damage. It still has it's drawbacks of low critical and lower Windmill damage, but the point is that 2H swords will still be a viable form of combat even when G13 comes to add all this confusion into the mix.

PSS.
Since the Sword of Elsinore requires the Rosemary Gloves, it loses out on Steel Needle Peaceful. If it's able to be enchanted, the best enchants I know of that goes on Cloth would be Corundum Burst Knight for a change of -12 Max (multiplied to -150 damage) and -10 Crit. That means that the Crit Smash damage gap is now roughly 725 damage. The average Crit between Bastard Ego and Elsinore is 34.5, reduced to 24.5 considering the loss of Steel Needle. Still beats the Highlander's 10 Crit though.


A few things wrong here...
1. You gave both Elsinore sword and ego bsword 10 less damage than they really have. (A total of -250 damage added up)
2. In g13 the Twister enchant comes out, you can get +16-20 max and 10 min on rosemary gloves.
3. Highlander sword is still only usefull if you can guarantee consistent crits. I would only use it in a strength roll in trans.
4. Because of dual-weilding superiority, the muramasa ego becomes much more viable, allowing for a chance to crit on monsters and losing minimal damage.

Dual-wielding is even more superior due to the fact that it's windmill power greatly exceeds 2-handed like always, so you can switch between windmill and smashing efficiently without any loss of damage.

[Justified]

A few things wrong here...
1. You gave both Elsinore sword and ego bsword 10 less damage than they really have. (A total of -250 damage added up)
2. In g13 the Twister enchant comes out, you can get +16-20 max and 10 min on rosemary gloves.
3. Highlander sword is still only usefull if you can guarantee consistent crits. I would only use it in a strength roll in trans.
4. Because of dual-weilding superiority, the muramasa ego becomes much more viable, allowing for a chance to crit on monsters and losing minimal damage.

Dual-wielding is even more superior due to the fact that it's windmill power greatly exceeds 2-handed like always, so you can switch between windmill and smashing efficiently without any loss of damage.

Yea I tend to get numbers wrong when I do too much at once, lol. Either way, considering my wrong numbers and your Twister enchant, the Highlander Claymore still comes out on top for Crit Smash. The setup I used wasn't optimal either, as there is one stronger 2H option currently available.

I'm curious though, do you know how wielding an R-type weapon with any other weapon affects resulting damage? Is it like Crit/Balance where it takes the average of the two (42+0 / 2 = +21%) or calculated separately somehow? I'd like to see how Warsword+Elsinore compares to Bastard Ego+Elsinore, and maybe Muramasa Ego too.

[Joker]

Bastard sword ego maxed + Sword of Elisnore = Dual Wield wins... (only for humans) >.>

[Lie]

I'm curious though, do you know how wielding an R-type weapon with any other weapon affects resulting damage? Is it like Crit/Balance where it takes the average of the two (42+0 / 2 = +21%) or calculated separately somehow? I'd like to see how Warsword+Elsinore compares to Bastard Ego+Elsinore, and maybe Muramasa Ego too.

I would like to know this too.

I'm not in the right place on the test server to upgrade past regular yet.

[TheKartheus]

Yea I tend to get numbers wrong when I do too much at once, lol. Either way, considering my wrong numbers and your Twister enchant, the Highlander Claymore still comes out on top for Crit Smash. The setup I used wasn't optimal either, as there is one stronger 2H option currently available.

I'm curious though, do you know how wielding an R-type weapon with any other weapon affects resulting damage? Is it like Crit/Balance where it takes the average of the two (42+0 / 2 = +21%) or calculated separately somehow? I'd like to see how Warsword+Elsinore compares to Bastard Ego+Elsinore, and maybe Muramasa Ego too.
The highlander claymore does come out on top for crit smashes, albeit with trans strength. Also remember that the Elsinore Sword+Muramasa ego have quite a bit higher minimum as well, closing in the gap even closer.

Also, from what I have gathered that is how it works, one fully R-type weapon with one un-upgraded weapon would only give +21%

Keep in mind that getting a full R-upgraded weapon will be VERY hard, and quite costly as well. After the first one, each ensuing upgrade has a 50% chance of succeeding. The odds of you getting it fully upgraded is about 3%. Every time you fail, you lose an upgrade, meaning you have to try again just to get back to where you were. It also costs 30k per try, so it could cost a good sum of money as well.

[Justified]

The highlander claymore does come out on top for crit smashes, albeit with trans strength. Also remember that the Elsinore Sword+Muramasa ego have quite a bit higher minimum as well, closing in the gap even closer.

Also, from what I have gathered that is how it works, one fully R-type weapon with one un-upgraded weapon would only give +21%

Keep in mind that getting a full R-upgraded weapon will be VERY hard, and quite costly as well. After the first one, each ensuing upgrade has a 50% chance of succeeding. The odds of you getting it fully upgraded is about 3%. Every time you fail, you lose an upgrade, meaning you have to try again just to get back to where you were. It also costs 30k per try, so it could cost a good sum of money as well.

Minimum isn't too significant on crits however, since the critical portion will always deal 100% maximum damage.
And I'm sure it's much easier and less costly to obtain a fully upgraded weapon than even one of a maxed ego or Rosemary Gloves. While it is only 3% chance for a perfect upgrade, the fact that fails are reverseable makes it much easier.

If nobody else volunteers to, I'll draw more damage comparisons between the available setups when I have free time.

[Lie]

If nobody else volunteers to, I'll draw more damage comparisons between the available setups when I have free time.

I can do that later when the rest of the information are filled in the wiki, unless you want to do it now.

I also want to check average damage with Critical damage upgrade.

[TheKartheus]

Minimum isn't too significant on crits however, since the critical portion will always deal 100% maximum damage.


If it always deals 100% maximum damage then why do I crit different damages?

[Justified]

If it always deals 100% maximum damage then why do I crit different damages?

The critical portion always deals 100% damage. Critical is 150% (+R-type) while normal damage is 100%.
This means your minimum damage and balance are only factored in for less than 1/2 of your resulting damage (less than 1/3 for 2H).

This has been tested by myself and several other people and proven to be true. Including my example in post 13.

[TheKartheus]

The critical portion always deals 100% damage. Critical is 150% (+R-type) while normal damage is 100%.
This means your minimum damage and balance are only factored in for less than 1/2 of your resulting damage (less than 1/3 for 2H).

This has been tested by myself and several other people and proven to be true. Including my example in post 13.

Oh I see I see. I had to read that a couple times to understand what you meant, I didn't know that before though.

[TheKartheus]

After looking at some more stuff, I realized that giant dual weilding will still do even more damage than a Elsinore+Muramasa ego.
Iron Mace ego = ~230 max damage. Gem Upgraded Goddess Horn Warhammer = ~123 Max damage.
Using the S-type overgrades, the first 3 give 21 max damage. 134 Max on the warhammer now.
230+134=364.
Lastly add in the usage of steel needle, (3 more max than twister), and blunt mastery (10 more max than sword), so thats 377.

So this is almost exactly the same as Eslinore+b-sword ego, and not including the last 3 overgrades. My wiki isn't working right now so the numbers may be slightly off, but its pretty safe to say that giant dual-wielding will still outdamage human dual-wielding, the Elsinore sword simply closes the gap to very little.


If anyone knows the exact level 50 max damage of an iron mace, please post it here. Same for the last 3 s-grades. Perhaps giant dual-weilding will be able to out-damage a highlander claymores crit smash?

[flamestriker]

Nice Guide.

[Kenero]

Depressing to think that even two-handers will lose to dual wield, even in the smash area end-game.

By the way, for the egos being useless. If they redo the leveling and uncap the levels, I'm sure Ego weapons can be much stronger, albiet ppl will have to spend more money just for that increase.

[EndlessDreams]

Depressing to think that even two-handers will lose to dual wield, even in the smash area end-game.

By the way, for the egos being useless. If they redo the leveling and uncap the levels, I'm sure Ego weapons can be much stronger, albiet ppl will have to spend more money just for that increase.

Watch each 10 levels after level 50 gives like +5 max damage total.

[Yanm]

Wait, so the special crit damage upgrades...do they stack with each upgrade or no? (confused). If you're dual-wielding a non-upgraded weapon and a weapon that gives +42% crit damage, it gives 21%? So....it's averaged out? Yeah, I need someone to explain this to me @_@

[TheKartheus]

Wait, so the special crit damage upgrades...do they stack with each upgrade or no? (confused). If you're dual-wielding a non-upgraded weapon and a weapon that gives +42% crit damage, it gives 21%? So....it's averaged out? Yeah, I need someone to explain this to me @_@

Yes it's averaged out.

As for spirit weapons, there has been a lot of talk in korea about making spirit weapons stronger soon. Whether that means uncapping them, or maybe even adding +crit damage with social level hasn't been decided yet (as far as I know).

[Yanm]

Yes it's averaged out.

As for spirit weapons, there has been a lot of talk in korea about making spirit weapons stronger soon. Whether that means uncapping them, or maybe even adding +crit damage with social level hasn't been decided yet (as far as I know).

Ah, I see....well, I guess that was to make ego+R upgraded stuff NOT even more OP than it already is? That makes sense I guess.
@Justin, A Claymore with the coupon can have 96 max and 43% crit if it's monster drop with +3 max, and crit. The 96 max is with the gem upgrade.

[Valkyrie]

It's also waaaaaay cheaper to get a good enchanted 2-handed weapon (just 1 needed) to good enchanted dual.

Ty, those graphs helped out a lot, and the list of comparison is long, but none the less a great asset to me when I'm looking for information.

[TheKartheus]

Apparently I was wrong I just recently saw proof that dual-weilding does, in fact, stack +crit chance. So, dual weild 6R battle swords will actually crit smash more than ego+elsinore now as of g14...