PALADIN KAROK

[Cucurbita]

IS BROKEN


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ULw0KrfvO8

The most valuable member of the team.

[Cannibal]

Good god...

[Andy-Buddy]

At least he's not constantly doing damage while holding them...

[Singleuseonly]

This reminds me of the pally staff Evie magic arrow spam, game breaking.

[Cannibal]

At least he's not constantly doing damage while holding them...

No, but the hypothetical party is.

[Osayidan]

His pillar thing looks like it came out of some science fiction thing 10000 years ahead of the vindictus era... do not like.

[Kueh]

^ I was thinking Protoss when I saw it.

[Cucurbita]

lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc8ChkmvbY

And this grab is just another means of immobilizing the boss of course. Grabbing it right as it recovers from stun QQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtFdn5n4GeI

His "evasive" abilities are indeed poor, but they have superarmor frames to them for immediate counterattack.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vkjGE2IHEA

The grab can FAIL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqVKwzgNuCo

[Lie]

Looks like he only failed his grab because he ran out of Stamina. Nevertheless, awesome party usage.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZVVN6XX3Sw

Some of the videos show Karok regenerating HP when he gets hit while superarmor is activated. Am I missing something here?

[Kueh]

^ I was about to comment on that as well.

[Gotejjeken]

I am starting to tire of these new characters. Evie was fine up until Golem, which literally tanks a boss and makes it impossible to stun lock properly since it always seems to be stuck inside the Golem (had this happen on Spider Overload yesterday). Not to mention the thing is huge and blocks all view as it constantly steps right in front of you.

Karok is a whole different kind of annoying. Why dodge when you can just be hit by a smash and get up right away? Why block when your health regens? It's as if they are taking Fiona's purpose away in the game, you won't need to stun lock if you have two Karok's alternating between grabbing and holding the boss. It's bad enough you can just spear/bomb/hook your way to victory on ANYTHING currently in the game, but this just adds another layer of broken that quite frankly, didn't need to be there.

One can argue that options are never a bad thing, however in this case they are.

[heretic304]

Apparently he learns a skill later where if you smash just as you're about to get hit, you negate a certain amount of damage and regain a certain amount of HP


EDIT: Apparently it's any attack that deals damage.
Linkeh here
http://www.vindictushq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2228

[Kueh]

you won't need to stun lock if you have two Karok's alternating between grabbing and holding the boss.

First of all, stun lock is cheese. If you're getting mad that Karok is pro-cheese, don't stun lock.

Secondly, I don't think it's as easy as just getting two Karoks. The stam cost for grabbing is phenomenal. The only way I can foresee Grab-locking being a viable tactic is in parties with 4 people, with two Karoks who just stand still to let their stamina recharge. Also, Grab-locking like that would be tough, since you can only grab against certain moves.

[Gotejjeken]

How is stun lock cheese? Fiona's entire character is based around stun locking an enemy...so any Fiona player is a 'cheeser' now? Unless you are speaking of spear-locking Tyrant, however I see that more as a flaw of the boss (Red Tyrant doesn't have nearly the issue White does with that) rather than an bad tactic. In fact, most bosses can be taken down with secondaries alone...so if you use secondary weapons are you cheesing now too?

[Kansi]

Karok will definitely be a team player, he also looks like he can solo most bosses now.

[paladin]

I smell nerf coming
Otherwise hes pretty balanced
That link about the show cases some of his skills
Hes kinda like a brezker type, or suicde type
Inflict damage and take damage regin hp as you do it

[Cucurbita]

This is technically the XE version of Karok we're seeing now though.
So who really knows?

[Science]

He seems kinda balanced to me, considering Fiona can take no damage at all and still dish out amazing stun/damage, without any risk of failing like Karok.

(Counter, HS Counter, etc)

[Gotejjeken]

The only problem with that line of reasoning is a Fiona has to actively HS or be hurt badly. From the video, Karok can walk into a boss smash and basically have nothing happen, with the added plus of HP regen. I can see why this is, as he is obviously meant to be the giant/tank character...however when they have Fiona and Golem doing essentially the same thing, I cannot see why he is needed other than possibly more variety.

[Science]

The only problem with that line of reasoning is a Fiona has to actively HS or be hurt badly. From the video, Karok can walk into a boss smash and basically have nothing happen, with the added plus of HP regen. I can see why this is, as he is obviously meant to be the giant/tank character...however when they have Fiona and Golem doing essentially the same thing, I cannot see why he is needed other than possibly more variety.

He had to start an attack for that effect though iirc. I agree that it's sort of imbalanced, but Lann has superarmor on his smashes, but no regen. If the regen is lessened or taken out completely, I'd be completely okay with it.

[Kueh]

How is stun lock cheese? Fiona's entire character is based around stun locking an enemy...so any Fiona player is a 'cheeser' now? Unless you are speaking of spear-locking Tyrant, however I see that more as a flaw of the boss (Red Tyrant doesn't have nearly the issue White does with that) rather than an bad tactic. In fact, most bosses can be taken down with secondaries alone...so if you use secondary weapons are you cheesing now too?

Fiona has high stun. That's different from stun locking. And if you use secondary weapons to stun-lock, like with white tyrant or the werewolves, then yes, it's cheesing.

Fiona's character isn't based around stun-locking. It's based primarily on the ability to block attacks. Her real strong suit isn't her stun rate. It's the fact that when the boss is done with his attack, Lanns have backed up to avoid it, Evies have backed up to avoid it, but Fiona is still there in the boss' face, charging a stigma.

[Cucurbita]

Fiona's character isn't based around stun-locking. It's based primarily on the ability to block attacks. Her real strong suit isn't her stun rate. It's the fact that when the boss is done with his attack, Lanns have backed up to avoid it, Evies have backed up to avoid it, but Fiona is still there in the boss' face, charging a stigma.

I dunno, I'd say Fiona is all about stunning.

Blocking? Evasive roll is just as good to dodge as anyone else's evasion. Blocking is optional.

Counter attack has MASSIVE stun rate. Probably larger than any other normal skill attack in the game. On top of that you're also given Shield Bash, which is purely a stun locking attack. This is of course on top of butterfly/stigma doing heavy stun to begin with (and theres always amaranth which has pretty nasty stun at max rank). Dash smash is just as powerful for knock down for every other character's dash smash, but Fiona gets heavy stander cancel which lets her use it super fast consecutively. Thats good stun too.

If you're partying with a Fiona, you're going to expect her to do the job of stunning the boss.

In a party of 4 Fionas, the boss will be perma stunned.

[Kueh]

Evie's stun isn't that far behind Fiona. For scythes anyway. Even end of boat 3 bosses can be perma-stunned by parties of 2 or 3 scythes.

As it stands though, I'd say Fiona's style really exemplifies her guard. Scythes are more about tag damage.

[Cucurbita]

Evie's stun isn't that far behind Fiona. For scythes anyway. Even end of boat 3 bosses can be perma-stunned by parties of 2 or 3 scythes.

As it stands though, I'd say Fiona's style really exemplifies her guard. Scythes are more about tag damage.

But guard is so pointless. Rolling away is literally better unless you intend to counterattack for a stun. So saying her guard is great is really the same as saying she's a stunning character.

Besides. Guarding or using Heavy Stander is actually not the best choice when you can just blink away if you start comparing to Scythe Evies. In that sense Fiona isn't defensive at all. Evie is more "defensive" than she is.

[Gotejjeken]

So secondaries should never be used then, as there sole purpose is to stun lock something (or in the case of smaller enemies, kill them, which is basically permanent stun lock). Chain hooks on Gnoll Chief lock him to the ground, which is--using your logic--as cheesy as it gets as he can't defend himself at all. You can play it to where you guard an attack and never use counter, secondaries, or any other stunning method...however that's more of an alternate approach than some 'non-cheese' deal. In fact, to get back on topic...Karok should be renamed Cheese as one of his main assets is locking an enemy in place until he runs out of stamina (or forever if he is in paladin mode).

Also, I main Fiona and rarely ever use guard by itself. Guard merely serves as a way to get a counter-attack off. Even if you count Heavy Stander as a guard, you can still counter from it per the most recent Korean update. In fact, if you get knocked back, you can also counter from that...which leads to a pattern, a pattern which revolves around stunning. You could most likely say Fiona is useless without stun, as she has low DPS, low maneuverability, and mediocre smashes when compared to the other classes.

[singer]

But guard is so pointless. Rolling away is literally better unless you intend to counterattack for a stun. So saying her guard is great is really the same as saying she's a stunning character.

Besides. Guarding or using Heavy Stander is actually not the best choice when you can just blink away if you start comparing to Scythe Evies. In that sense Fiona isn't defensive at all. Evie is more "defensive" than she is.

Fiona's play styles depends on the difficulty of the dungeon. At lower levels, i would agree that guarding is pointless and dodging is better because the enemies are weak and slow.

However, in the higher level dungeons, guarding will become much more effective than dodging because higher level bosses tend to use smashes a lot more.

Not only does Fionas save their lives by guarding, but they can also effectively charge up their Sp Skill bar for a powerful shield bash or shield rush by doing so.

Not mention, large shields prevents knockbacks for heavy standers and it accumlate Sp in a much more efficient manner.

For me, I like PG because it activates smashes faster with r9 guard :)

Fiona benefits a lot from guarding

[Gotejjeken]

That's the problem though, smashing off a PG isn't nearly as useful as it sounds. The only time I've ever done that is against a normal mob, and on purpose as an alternate way to defeat them. Against any boss, smashing off a PG is never a good idea unless you like being hit...counter is much more effective. I'm not saying that normal blocking will never save you some damage, as it has countless times for me, however Fiona is much more reliant on stuns than guards IMO.

[Kueh]

Evie is more "defensive" than she is.

I would say "evasive". And there are times when blink is better, there are times when guard is better. Guard allows Fiona to stay near the enemy and not stop attacking.


So secondaries should never be used then

I never said that locking is bad. I have fun while locking.

[heretic304]

It should also be noted that Fiona's newer counters don't have nearly as high of a knockdown rate as her older ones. I was watching a video of the new skills, and she was able to do 6 heavy stander counters without knocking down the Gnoll Chieftain, which means sad knockdown rate of sadness D;

Also Karok's timing for his damage negate + HP heal thing is supposedly even stricter than Lann's Slip Dash timing. Which means it may not be as ridiculously OP as you think unless you're able to get the timing perfect D:

[Cucurbita]

Guarding to fill up to charge Shield Bash?
Once again we return to my main point. Guard is literally almost purely done with the purpose of stunning the enemy in mind.

The whole "later boat" argument doesn't work. Its been used about boat 3, its been used about boat 4, and it never held up its worth. Especially toward spear lanns and evies. Everyone was like "LOL YOU GUYS WAIT TILL BOAT 4 YOU'LL DIE LIKE ALL THE TIME".

"Later boats, bosses will have more stun resist". Guess what, "later on, Fiona can level her skills to have more stun".

"Later boats, enemies will attack more often, making so you need to guard". Rolling away is STILL just as useful as guarding. It still takes the same amount of time. The only difference is that if you guard, you accomplish two things.

1. Counter for stun
2. Fill up SP for shield bash for stun

Verdict: Fiona is a stun character. All her normal smashes have more stun than other characters too.

[TA]

I thought giants didn't get pally/dk trans and just got beast transformations?

__
@OP - I liked the part where he held the Chief's hammer.

[Andy-Buddy]

Guarding to fill up to charge Shield Bash?
Once again we return to my main point. Guard is literally almost purely done with the purpose of stunning the enemy in mind.

The whole "later boat" argument doesn't work. Its been used about boat 3, its been used about boat 4, and it never held up its worth. Especially toward spear lanns and evies. Everyone was like "LOL YOU GUYS WAIT TILL BOAT 4 YOU'LL DIE LIKE ALL THE TIME".

"Later boats, bosses will have more stun resist". Guess what, "later on, Fiona can level her skills to have more stun".

"Later boats, enemies will attack more often, making so you need to guard". Rolling away is STILL just as useful as guarding. It still takes the same amount of time. The only difference is that if you guard, you accomplish two things.

1. Counter for stun
2. Fill up SP for shield bash for stun

Verdict: Fiona is a stun character. All her normal smashes have more stun than other characters too.

Newer bosses don't like rolling much, especially Fleeing King. His roars are prettymuch Roll-Resistant.

[singer]

That's the problem though, smashing off a PG isn't nearly as useful as it sounds. The only time I've ever done that is against a normal mob, and on purpose as an alternate way to defeat them. Against any boss, smashing off a PG is never a good idea unless you like being hit...counter is much more effective. I'm not saying that normal blocking will never save you some damage, as it has countless times for me, however Fiona is much more reliant on stuns than guards IMO.

yeah i agree smashes from PG is pretty bad because it can be interrupted D:

[heretic304]

I thought giants didn't get pally/dk trans and just got beast transformations?

__
@OP - I liked the part where he held the Chief's hammer.

Karok's not a Giant. He's human >_> so therefore he doesn't get beast transformation D:

[Cucurbita]

Newer bosses don't like rolling much, especially Fleeing King. His roars are prettymuch Roll-Resistant.

What? Side roll dodges every attack from Fleeing King.

Not trying to say her rolling option is ALWAYS a possible alternative. But most of the time, its possible. The reason why we chose not to roll is because guarding results in bonuses that leads to stunning.

To claim being able to block turns Fiona into a defensive character is somewhat pointless. There are very few situations where guard or heavy stander is absolutely necessary. Whats the difference between "defensive" and "evasive"? In the end, you're finding a means to avoid taking damage. With that in mind, every other character is technically more defensive than Fiona (albeit Karok, who seems to lack many means to avoid taking damage).

Seriously. Fiona is a stun character.

[Kenero]

What? Side roll dodges every attack from Fleeing King.

Not trying to say her rolling option is ALWAYS a possible alternative. But most of the time, its possible. The reason why we chose not to roll is because guarding results in bonuses that leads to stunning.

To claim being able to block turns Fiona into a defensive character is somewhat pointless. There are very few situations where guard or heavy stander is absolutely necessary. Whats the difference between "defensive" and "evasive"? In the end, you're finding a means to avoid taking damage. With that in mind, every other character is technically more defensive than Fiona (albeit Karok, who seems to lack many means to avoid taking damage).

Seriously. Fiona is a stun character.

She's stunningly beautiful in my eyes. ;)

But on topic: it looks great that Karok can do that. But I will stay say Fiona will still hold up her own end. Especially with future updates. She's a stun character, even showing how developers add in new counters just to stun enemies in more ways.

[Andy-Buddy]

She's stunningly beautiful in my eyes. ;)

But on topic: it looks great that Karok can do that. But I will stay say Fiona will still hold up her own end. Especially with future updates. She's a stun character, even showing how developers add in new counters just to stun enemies in more ways.

Those counters have a very low KnockDown rate, if videos are any proof of that.

Is it weird if I see Fiona as a dancer? Weaving in and out of hits, pulling in the enemy, only to deal back damage?

I wouldn't be surprised if she gains a skill which was dependent on the monster's attack.

[Kenero]

Those counters have a very low KnockDown rate, if videos are any proof of that.

Is it weird if I see Fiona as a dancer? Weaving in and out of hits, pulling in the enemy, only to deal back damage?

I wouldn't be surprised if she gains a skill which was dependent on the monster's attack.

Enemy attacks Fiona with an overhead swing but at the last second, Fiona flips into the air, locking her long slender legs around the enemy's neck before bending her back, releasing her leg lock and sending the enemy flying or forcing them unto their knees...

Might be a little too sexy.

[Andy-Buddy]

Enemy attacks Fiona with an overhead swing but at the last second, Fiona flips into the air, locking her long slender legs around the enemy's neck before bending her back, releasing her leg lock and sending the enemy flying or forcing them unto their knees...

Might be a little too sexy.

Fiona is the built sex-machine.

[Kenero]

Fiona is the built sex-machine.

She isn't jailbait like Evie (Is she 18? I'm not sure).

Stunnigly beautiful sexy characters like Fiona should stun, end of story.

Ok we're going off-topic now. X_x

[Cucurbita]

Fiona is actually just a masochist. Feeding off enemy attacks in order to be efficient.

[heretic304]

Actually... Fiona's not really a masochist because she doesn't actually take the hits. She guards and counters, which is more like redirecting hits. Karok, for sure, is the masochist... I mean look at the ability he learns @_@ You take a hit full force, without dodging it in order to negate some damage and then regain health xD I dunno about you, but it sounds like he takes pleasure in getting hurt.

[TA]

First of all, stun lock is cheese. If you're getting mad that Karok is pro-cheese, don't stun lock.

Secondly, I don't think it's as easy as just getting two Karoks. The stam cost for grabbing is phenomenal. The only way I can foresee Grab-locking being a viable tactic is in parties with 4 people, with two Karoks who just stand still to let their stamina recharge. Also, Grab-locking like that would be tough, since you can only grab against certain moves.

Evie + Insane Reaper? Or if that's not enough, Evie + Insane Reaper + Stamina Potion?

[Kenero]

Evie + Insane Reaper? Or if that's not enough, Evie + Insane Reaper + Stamina Potion?

If Karok gets combat respiration + 900 agility (funny to hear that from a big man)... scary!

[meh707]

paladin karok + glide spamming spear lann. fastest. kill. ever.

[Cucurbita]

Cant insane reaper stack?

[Phoenix~Lament]

Nope, it can't.

See here: http://mabination.com/threads/14851-Question-about-overriding-party-skills

[Saintsy11]

I know I'm probably Necroing, but I had to put it out there. Too many people were complaining that Fiona wasn't, in the way that people wanted her, an ALL-ROUNDER Char Type. If you check the Vindictus DB. It Obviously States that she is the TANK, with mediocre Melee DPS. Her build is solely for regular shield Stunning/Guarding, and using Large Shield Heavy Stander to Shield Party dmg. She wasn't meant to walk up and kill it. If you wanted that, make a Lann or Karok, or even Evie for goodness sakes. I mean, to relate, I'll slip in a bit of Mabinogi correlation. If you wanted to do the most dmg, You wouldn't wear a Sword and Shield. You'd use Dual-Wield Swords or a 2Hander correct? Also, to relate in another way, Perhaps I'm old fashioned about the whole class system (Yes, I realize Mabi isn't one of them, but I glomped Vind when it came out) but I'd prefer a party with all 4 chars, in retrospect from a Group of 4 Karoks, 4 Evies, 4 Lanns, or 4 Fionas. Each person has a job they do: Karok(Bruiser) Evie(AoE Ranged DPS) Lann(Melee DPS) and Fiona(Tank). I can't stand how people complain when they can't solo. If a class style fighting game is established, its assumed each person is just as important. You assume the role you're given. Don't complain when an obviously Bruiser built char does more dmg or kills more than you. Its their JOB. Oh and btw. My main is a Fiona, and I love what I do.

[anokarlo]

His pillar thing looks like it came out of some science fiction thing 10000 years ahead of the vindictus era... do not like.

It's the ships they would ride on that movie Atlantis: The Lost Empire.

[Arendel]

I know I'm probably Necroing, but I had to put it out there. Too many people were complaining that Fiona wasn't, in the way that people wanted her, an ALL-ROUNDER Char Type. If you check the Vindictus DB. It Obviously States that she is the TANK, with mediocre Melee DPS.
That specific part of the DB you're referencing isn't even official. It is based on user input and technically is incorrect. She is not a tank in the traditional sense. Sure, she can take hits, but guess what? So can everyone else. There's also the fact that there is no skill unique to her for the purpose of drawing aggro.


Her build is solely for regular shield Stunning/Guarding, and using Large Shield Heavy Stander to Shield Party dmg.
Stunning with small shield, yes. Shielding party damage with large, no. The large shield was designed to allow Fiona, in the face of smash spam, to maintain her position with the intent of dealing damage. Being able to sit there and turtle is just a side effect of the abilities that the developers granted to large shield users. Except for the chase sequence in Irukul, it is not her job. All of the other characters could do the same thing because they have survival mechanisms that allow them to avoid taking damage. Should they not also be considered tanks?


She wasn't meant to walk up and kill it. If you wanted that, make a Lann or Karok, or even Evie for goodness sakes.
And yet, for all the damage they do, they sure have great survivability on their own. If they can have both, why can't Fiona?


Each person has a job they do: Karok(Bruiser) Evie(AoE Ranged DPS) Lann(Melee DPS) and Fiona(Tank).
Again, Fiona is no more a tank than anyone else. Everyone's "job" is to deal damage and avoid taking it. Also, Evie can do melee DPS with a scythe, and AoE is not exclusive to her.


I can't stand how people complain when they can't solo. If a class style fighting game is established, its assumed each person is just as important.
Except that is nowhere near the case in this game.