Fiona Sword vs. Hammer Comparison and Analysis Guide

[Kendrak]

This is a guide specifically to compare sword and hammer. I will not be going too in depth about what their different attacks are. Instead, I’ll be comparing the two and their purposes.

Sword I feel is a much safer option for a tanking Fiona. Stander canceling attacks takes off a huge amount of recovery for sword and keeps Fiona incredibly safe. It’s a must learn for any Fiona and absolutely essential to sword Fiona’s game. Amaranth kick is really the biggest boon to sword Fiona’s attack set because of the tremendous amount of stun it does. Generally speaking, one Amaranth kick is enough to down any mini-boss type enemy. The other great advantage to Amaranth kick is that its five hit wind up is so flexible because you can attack in any direction and stander cancel out of any of the swipes with ease to protect yourself if you’ve misjudged the timing or spacing.

Hammer is a much more powerful damaging option for Fiona but also a lot riskier. Hammer attacks cannot be stander canceled (you may do a stander after the recovery of the swing but it does not in fact reduce the recovery time like with swords). This puts hammer Fiona’s at a much greater risk than sword in that the timing for executing any of her attacks must be correct or else you’re going to eat damage. Hammer Fiona also does not have a massive stun attack like Amaranth for sword, but really the damage she outputs is more than twice as much as sword so both have quite valuable uses.

I’d argue that it’s worth maxing both at some point, but obviously not before mastering your defensive skills first. Both hammer and sword are useful in different ways and depending on the enemy you’re fighting you may very well want to use one or the other.

Interchangeable Attacks

I’ve found that in terms of timing and spacing both weapons have a few interchangeable attacks. This is useful when switching between the two and I’ll outline those attacks here.

Amaranth Kick LLLLR : Orchid Strike LLR

In terms of range these two are very similar, and although many would think that Stigma would be doable where Amaranth kicks are they’re actually wrong IF the enemy is being attacked during recovery and the range is necessary to land the attack.
For example when Gnoll Chieftan does his spinning smash and you start winding up an Amaranth Kick to hit, you’re generally using the Amaranth Kick from max range, unless you started it from a side angle. In this situation Stigma will often whiff because of its short reach, even if you use all regular attacks just to advance. This is another tool that Amaranth has over Stigma is that its reach allows for much more adjustment in your spacing as you can use the startup swings just outside of an enemies attack radius much more freely than trying to do so with Stigma, which you have to advance much more.
Therefore Orchid Strike is a much better alternative as it does nearly the same damage as Amaranth and has even more range on the final strike. You only get two swings to windup so the spacing is a little more difficult, but generally speaking the final hit goes so far that it easily makes up for the lack of spacing normals.

Blossom Blow LLR(R)(R) : Grand Slam Calla LR

Blossom Blow is arguable the most flexible Fiona attack in the game. Sadly for Long Hammer the only alternative in terms of timing is Grand Slam Calla. The attack itself is quite good, but because Hammer’s don’t benefit from stander canceling, this is the only thing you can safely go for in place of Blossom Blow, which if you see a wider opening you can adjust to get more damage and still stander cancel and keep yourself safe.

Ivy Sweep LLLRRR : Butterfly Swing LLLR(R)~(R)~etc.

Ivy Sweep is one option to deal with trash mobs that are surrounding you, and Butterfly Swing is Hammer Fiona’s option. Butterfly Swing is definitely more flexible because you can use as many as you want until your stamina runs out. Ivy Sweep’s attacks are all stander cancelable but the last kick has tricky timing and definitely more delay before being able to stander canceled, arguably of little actually benefit. I’d argue that Ivy Sweep is one of Fiona’s worst overall attacks because of the lack of damage and true versatility. Also, that it’s set in between two much more efficient attacks doesn’t help its cause. In fact, for clearing mobs Blossom Blow is 9/10 times the better option. Butterfly Swing I actually need to experiment more with, it seems okay but probably debatable. I personally prefer Orchid Strike in almost all situations for clearing trash as its hit radius is massive.

Weapon Unique Attacks

These are attacks that are really unique to each weapon and serve different purposes. Although the attacks mentioned in the Interchangeable section are unique on their own, these attacks have very specific properties for each weapon.

Bamboo Splitter:

This attack is one of the most underrated attacks Fiona has. It does decent damage, has good range, and has a very fast stander cancel in addition to being a very safe smash. There is no reason to do Spike Rose when you have this attack. It is unique in that it recovers so fast with stander that nothing in the Long Hammer arsenal can replace it except maybe a single normal.
For example; against either of the spiders, Bamboo Splitter is possible after every single attack blocked or heavy standered with a large shield. This is not true for hammer Fiona, the only attack that opens the spider up to a Grand Slam Calla is the attack that lets swords do a Blossom Blow.

Stigma:

This is the only chargeable attack currently in the game. It does incredible damage even uncharged, and does decent splash as well. Other than that this attack is most useful when an enemy is downed and will rarely be charged unless in a very organized party or fighting an enemy that stays down especially long like Laghodessa.

I’ll be updating this when the new attacks are released for NA. I know that hammer gets to charge its one hit smash, which may or may not be useful. Both sword and hammer one hit smashes are fairly useless in my opinion. Sword appears to get a new unique chargeable attack that has massive range. We’ll see how useful these two are.

Thanks for reading!
-Elysza EAST

*Edit* According to many responses I'm off with some information about Butterfly Swing and Orchid Strike. Please note that these are my personal findings and opinions and of course each players interpretation will be different. I will continue to experiment with both sword and hammer and adjust my guide to the usefulness. To anyone who is looking for more information and other opinions, read the responses as they offer fantastic information. (I highly recommend watching Papa's Spider hammer solo, it is really a science in the potential of hammer Fiona)

[Papa]

Two new attacks are useless. About as much damage as LR, fully charged.

PS: You need far more research apparently. Sword, ESPECIALLY in the Giant Spider solo fight, will never be able to catch up to Hammer, after extensive research, and finally a video.

[Andy-Buddy]

Bamboo Splitter, in my opinion, is very weak. It compares more to a hammer's normal attack than any hammer smash, or even the Sprint Smash.

In terms of timing, Butterfly Swing and Amaranth are arguably similar.

Grand Slam Calla has a very good AoE, and I'm usually able to wipe out 2-3 monsters in a wide range, though you must aim to the left a bit to get the full effect.

I think you are underestimating Butterfly Swing a bit. It has the ability to kill every mob currently in the game in 1 swing, if you're at the right levels.

Orchid Strike, IMO is one of the lesser used Hammer Smashes. It has such a long range, but has almost no horizontal range, and takes so long to administer. I feel a Butterfly would be faster sometimes.

[Papa]

After actually reading everything in detail, it seems the OP hasnt even bothered to use Hammer. At least longer than one run. So many holes and Sword favoritism.

[Andy-Buddy]

After actually reading everything in detail, it seems the OP hasnt even bothered to use Hammer. At least longer than one run. So many holes and Sword favoritism.

I wouldn't say only one run, but just lacking in use overall.

Also: Stigma is God Status if you have a very low FPS. I manage to spam Stigma in Laghodessa runs when I only have around 15 FPS, and I still get commendations from my fellow partymates. (I'm usually 1-2vLagh while everyone else takes on the Red Spider. I manage to spam Stigma, while not taking too much damage.)

[Kendrak]

After actually reading everything in detail, it seems the OP hasnt even bothered to use Hammer. At least longer than one run. So many holes and Sword favoritism.

I've used hammer quite extensively, regarding your post about spider, I would really enjoy seeing a video with the finish time. Specifically, using large shield instead of small shield, and getting a free Bamboo Splitter after every attack with one exception leading to Blossom Blow heavily beat's out hammer only being able to get 1 normal/Grand Slam Calla in place. In a counterattacking battle it would be dependent on how many normal strikes the spider does because hammer has tremendous damage output, but can only be executed on the spider when downed, it has no other openings except a dodged Jump, which is just an Orchid Strike, and you won't be seeing many Jumps anyways since you'll be spending most of the fight at point blank.

Also I'm really curious how you guys see favoritism for sword. Really I'm being as objective as possible, these are simply my findings. Hammer does tremendous unmatched damage, but I really cannot see any argument that it is nearly as versatile as sword because of the inability to stander cancel. Stander canceling keeps Fiona so safe in many instances I really view it as a crutch. Hammer's require far more knowledge of an enemies recovery time because you don't have the option to cancel your attack into a blocking stance. Please advise me where favoritism comes up in my thread and I'd be happy to rectify.

[Papa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lG2CJqlmg

While I may not be an ordinary player, this was my second attempt at the spider. My first attempt shows just about what you describe(its in my video channel, find it). Basically an inexperienced Fiona, that has no idea as to what Hammer is capable of doing.

After ACTUALLY using both weapons for a while, I was able to determine what you can and cant do in GS's specific time frames.

Hammer is the victor, by a very long shot.

That part alone, and your inexperience with Hammer, lead me to discredit this thread. (If youre not inexperienced with Hammer, then youre just a bad player. I did not want to post that.)

[Andy-Buddy]

I've used hammer quite extensively, regarding your post about spider, I would really enjoy seeing a video with the finish time. Specifically, using large shield instead of small shield, and getting a free Bamboo Splitter after every attack with one exception leading to Blossom Blow heavily beat's out hammer only being able to get 1 normal/Grand Slam Calla in place. In a counterattacking battle it would be dependent on how many normal strikes the spider does because hammer has tremendous damage output, but can only be executed on the spider when downed, it has no other openings except a dodged Jump, which is just an Orchid Strike, and you won't be seeing many Jumps anyways since you'll be spending most of the fight at point blank.

Orchid Strike is very inefficient to use mid battle, save for when the monster is turning. I find Butterfly Swing much more fitting against spiders. Counterattacking is rather viable for both.

The key to Hammer, as I see it, is careful planning and calculating. You can count the seconds and you grow a feel for the speed. Things tend to speed by more than Sword, where sword you try to push for as many attacks as possible, but there is no exact "Set Plan."

I would not say Blossom has beat out Grand Slam Calla, at least not by a long shot. They're very comparable, especially in higher level boats.

Edit: Guard's rank 9 bonus is much more time-saving for Hammers, as well.

Also, if I find myself having to use swords, I tend to sway toward large shields as well. The cushion of heavy standering everything instead of having to decide gives me more courage to push through with fast attacks.

[Kendrak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lG2CJqlmg

While I may not be an ordinary player, this was my second attempt at the spider. My first attempt shows just about what you describe(its in my video channel, find it). Basically an inexperienced Fiona, that has no idea as to what Hammer is capable of doing.

After ACTUALLY using both weapons for a while, I was able to determine what you can and cant do in GS's specific time frames.

Hammer is the victor, by a very long shot.

That part alone, and your inexperience with Hammer, lead me to discredit this thread. (If youre not inexperienced with Hammer, then youre just a bad player. I did not want to post that.)

That's an excellent Video, but I was really referring to with a large shield and without items/etc. because I meant the Laghodessa Raid and using large shield because with small shield the knockback is so great that you greatly risk aggroing the second spider. Anyways, I absolutely respect your gameplay, and will work further on my hammer skills. Perfect guarding into Butterfly Swing on the spider's slow attack was well executed and impressive. I'll remove the comment from my original thread.

*Edit* After some more research, thanks Papa for encouraging me to investigate more, you're findings are accurate. In Hidden sword cannot beat out hammer in terms of speed, even with a long shield. I apologize, my findings were based on my experience with Laghodessa duoing with an Evie with Insane Reaper and Stamina Potions. With those stamina boosters you can guarantee hit's after every attack from either spider indefinitely and it appears to be much faster because the hits guaranteed with hammer are only normals and Grand Slam Calla. Again, I'm posting from my own experiences and try to do as much research as I can before offering an opinion. I highly recommend you try large shield and sword setup for soloing or duoing Laghodessa and if you're able to find a better solution with hammer please offer it. So far ~4 minutes is the fastest Laghodessa duo I've done, and I can't solo in under 20 minutes with sword and shield (this is with Palala glitch and no booster potions).


Orchid Strike is very inefficient to use mid battle, save for when the monster is turning. I find Butterfly Swing much more fitting against spiders. Counterattacking is rather viable for both.

The key to Hammer, as I see it, is careful planning and calculating. You can count the seconds and you grow a feel for the speed. Things tend to speed by more than Sword, where sword you try to push for as many attacks as possible, but there is no exact "Set Plan."

I would not say Blossom has beat out Grand Slam Calla, at least not by a long shot. They're very comparable, especially in higher level boats.

Edit: Guard's rank 9 bonus is much more time-saving for Hammers, as well.

Also, if I find myself having to use swords, I tend to sway toward large shields as well. The cushion of heavy standering everything instead of having to decide gives me more courage to push through with fast attacks.

Thanks for your comment, I agree with you on most points, but I do not see the ineffectiveness of Orchid Strike. That attack seems exceptional to me as it has a massive hitbox and outreaches even Amaranth on the final strike. It also appears to do as much if not more damage than an Amaranth and as Papa's video shows is a very clear punish to the spider's whiffing Jump.

[Andy-Buddy]

Thanks for your comment, I agree with you on most points, but I do not see the ineffectiveness of Orchid Strike. That attack seems exceptional to me as it has a massive hitbox and outreaches even Amaranth on the final strike. It also appears to do as much if not more damage than an Amaranth and as Papa's video shows is a very clear punish to the spider's whiffing Jump.

I guess you could call it a personal preference. For other attacks, its closer to Attack then a Recovery, but this has more of a build up then attack, with little recovery.

[Cucurbita]

I main Hammiona and I gotta say..

I'm not sure if I agree with Orchid Strike.
Its either Grand Slam or Butterfly for me. It depends on which boss you're fighting sometimes, but theres only been one or two bosses where Orchid was a better choice. Since as everyone can agree, Hammionas have very poor recovery, I'd rather not push for a Orchid if I don't have to. So I stick with Grand Slam. Sometimes I just go straight for a perfect counter bait and pull a butterfly, which we all know is a fantastic skill on any occassion.

Sorry, but I think you're alone here on saying Orchid Strike is useful. I almost never find myself using it. Its the poor recovery that I just cannot stand.

Now the other thing about the OP post that really picked at me here is that you claimed hammers to lack knockdown. This isn't true.
Both Butterfly Swing and Stigma have FAR more stun rate than Amaranth. But Amaranth has a much higher growth, which only serves to just even things out.

I left smash skills left untouched and I can tell you right now from exchanging the two weapons that this is a fact.

But since you'll never use stigma on a boss who isn't already down, I suppose it comes down to Butterfly and Amaranth.

Butterfly Swing is Hammiona's greatest skill. It has good range, its easy to pull, deals excellent damage, and has plenty of stun power. I actually find myself starting to completely forget counterattack and go straight for Butterfly Swing after a baited perfect guard now. And you can wind it up in position too. I cannot stress how absolutely great Butterfly Swing is for both bosses and crowd control.

If you've been using Orchid over Butterfly, you've been playing Hammiona wrong. No wonder the thread OP post is sword favored.

[Kendrak]

I main Hammiona and I gotta say..

I'm not sure if I agree with Orchid Strike.
Its either Grand Slam or Butterfly for me. It depends on which boss you're fighting sometimes, but theres only been one or two bosses where Orchid was a better choice. Since as everyone can agree, Hammionas have very poor recovery, I'd rather not push for a Orchid if I don't have to. So I stick with Grand Slam. Sometimes I just go straight for a perfect counter bait and pull a butterfly, which we all know is a fantastic skill on any occassion.

Sorry, but I think you're alone here on saying Orchid Strike is useful. I almost never find myself using it. Its the poor recovery that I just cannot stand.

Now the other thing about the OP post that really picked at me here is that you claimed hammers to lack knockdown. This isn't true.
Both Butterfly Swing and Stigma have FAR more stun rate than Amaranth. But Amaranth has a much higher growth, which only serves to just even things out.

I left smash skills left untouched and I can tell you right now from exchanging the two weapons that this is a fact.

But since you'll never use stigma on a boss who isn't already down, I suppose it comes down to Butterfly and Amaranth.

Butterfly Swing is Hammiona's greatest skill. It has good range, its easy to pull, deals excellent damage, and has plenty of stun power. I actually find myself starting to completely forget counterattack and go straight for Butterfly Swing after a baited perfect guard now. And you can wind it up in position too. I cannot stress how absolutely great Butterfly Swing is for both bosses and crowd control.

If you've been using Orchid over Butterfly, you've been playing Hammiona wrong. No wonder the thread OP post is sword favored.

I meant the range of Orchid Strike being comparable to Amaranth makes it useful for punishing bosses whiffed attacks. There are numerous openings (spiders jump, Chieftains spinning attack, Dim Gray's slide) that open them up for an Orchid Strike only because the range is so great. I really am trying to post an unbiased opinion I don't get how you guys see sword favoritism. If I'm wrong about an aspect of hammer then I'm wrong, but I've never said one is better than the other.

[Intex]

Merged a few posts. Kendrak please use the edit button instead of double posting.

[Cucurbita]

I just grand slam all whiffs and with left over time spam the crap out of sprint smash hs cancel. Maybe thats just me.

And sometimes just wind up a butterfly swing and bait a whiff, much like people do with amaranth. A bit trickier but definitely possible and totally worth the damage.

[TheBoulder]

The only time I ever use Orchid Strike is when I don't have enough time to use a Butterfly/Stigma on a boss, or when I don't feel like using Butterfly to clear trash mobs (not very often). It has great reach distance-wise, but horrible AoE.
The moment a boss goes on its knees it will eat a Stigma Hammer from me, levels of charge depending on its aggro and whether it's a vampire or not.

[Mama]

is Orchid LLR? I never really bothered to memorize the names of the attacks that dont have skillbooks, so apologies if it isn't.

if so, OP isn't wrong to favor them, situationally. I'm not sure what all the hubub is about. Its range is unmatched in regards to hammer skills, similar to amaranth as noted, and great for small windows where the boss lunged forward or something, such as what papa did when it did that whiff(?) lunge (I also use it when the GS does the googly eye when its tired, perfect time window). I actually love it for the ability to hit behind it at well, I do occasionally end up in a situation where I need to kill a vampire behind me and a little farther ahead and position accordingly. It's also a very important move during Red Tyrant.

also, using stigma only when the boss is down? It's versatile like amaranth is (albeit with less range so more care is needed), It's just a matter of position and timing to get it after a boss does an attack.

[blahblahblahx]

I'd just like to point out that hammer Fiona doesn't need to HS cancel out of her attacks because she can move or dodge cancel out of them instead - it's not like it's impossible to cancel out of hammers animation frames. It is true however that even with canceling both hammer and sword attacks, hammers attacks are still slower.

[heretic304]

I'd just like to point out that hammer Fiona doesn't need to HS cancel out of her attacks because she can move or dodge cancel out of them instead - it's not like it's impossible to cancel out of hammers animation frames. It is true however that even with canceling both hammer and sword attacks, hammers attacks are still slower.

You can't exactly call it "move cancel" or "dodge cancel" because you're not canceling any animations by doing either of those. The moment you can move, or dodge, is the same moment that the delay finishes, so in essence you haven't canceled anything. Heavy Stander, however, does cancel delay, but only for sword, since it has a much longer delay than hammer does.

The way you can look at each attack is the animation which cannot be canceled, and the delay which can be canceled. Sword attacks have an animation and then a lengthy delay, while hammers have a lengthy animation with a nearly negligible delay. The reason Heavy Stander can be used to cancel Sword Delay is because it can be used as soon as the animation is over AND its own animation is way shorter than the Sword's Delay. If you try doing the same with a Hammer, however, you actually add time to your attack because the hammer's delay is shorter than the Heavy Stander Animation.

[blahblahblahx]

You can cancel out of hammer fionas attack animation frames by moving or dodging (or heavy standering) after a certain point in the animation, just like you can cancel out of sword fionas attack animation frames by heavy standering after a certain point in the animation. There is no such thing as 'delay' - there areonly the animation frames and the frame at which the animation can be canceled through various means such as moving, dodging, or blocking. Thus, it is correct to call it move canceling or dodge canceling. Are people going to have to post more youtube videos to prove you wrong again?

[Andy-Buddy]

You can cancel out of hammer fionas attack animation frames by moving or dodging (or heavy standering) after a certain point in the animation, just like you can cancel out of sword fionas attack animation frames by heavy standering after a certain point in the animation. There is no such thing as 'delay' - there areonly the animation frames and the frame at which the animation can be canceled through various means such as moving, dodging, or blocking. Thus, it is correct to call it move canceling or dodge canceling. Are people going to have to post more youtube videos to prove you wrong again?

Delay, in this sense, is the animation frames when you cannot move, and are after the initial attack. Sword attacks have a short attack animation, and a period where you cannot move after, without a cancel.

The thing about your 'move cancel' and 'dodge cancel' are that, in fact, they are exactly what you wish to do. You wish to move, set up another attack, or dodge a monster's attack. You are restricted from doing these because of the attack you initiated. After a certain point in the animation, which happens to be after the attack portion has finished, you are able to Heavy Stander. Heavy Stander is the -only- thing you are able to do. (May I remind you, I'm talking about swords.) Heavy Stander has a very short get up animation, which means you can move almost immediately after getting out of it. You have now cut out the time it would have taken to wait out the rest of the animation, by cancelling the attack animation with the heavy stander animation.

[heretic304]

You can cancel out of hammer fionas attack animation frames by moving or dodging (or heavy standering) after a certain point in the animation, just like you can cancel out of sword fionas attack animation frames by heavy standering after a certain point in the animation. There is no such thing as 'delay' - there areonly the animation frames and the frame at which the animation can be canceled through various means such as moving, dodging, or blocking. Thus, it is correct to call it move canceling or dodge canceling. Are people going to have to post more youtube videos to prove you wrong again?

I'll say it a different way then. When you use a sword, you'll notice that you are able to start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, BEFORE you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, Heavy Stander is considered a cancel, since it shortens the time frame between attacks. When you use a hammer, however, you'll notice that the moment you are able start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, is EXACTLY THE SAME as the moment you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, none of these can be considered a cancel.

[blahblahblahx]

I'll say it a different way then. When you use a sword, you'll notice that you are able to start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, BEFORE you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, Heavy Stander is considered a cancel, since it shortens the time frame between attacks. When you use a hammer, however, you'll notice that the moment you are able start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, is EXACTLY THE SAME as the moment you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, none of these can be considered a cancel.

No. Canceling is any action that interrupts the current animation frames and starts a different action with different animation frames. There is nothing special or different about heavy stander canceling compared to move canceling, dodge canceling, canceling into gliding fury, or whatever. Move canceling also shortens the time frame between attacks, as you are (work with me here) canceling out of the rest of her attack animation.

Just because the only way for sword fiona to cancel out of her attacks is by HSing doesn't give HS some magical, imaginary properties or special classification relative to other forms of canceling. They are all forms of canceling, regardless of the length of animation frames or how long it takes before you can cancel out of the animation.

Also, some of hammer fionas attacks can't be attack canceled out of into other attacks. Her honey bee sting single right click smash, for example. You can't just keep spamming right click, you have to move, dodge, hs cancel out of it or left click attack. You can't left or right click to cancel out of her LLLLR - you need to move, dodge, or HS cancel it. So you are actually wrong in some cases when stating that she can attack cancel out of her moves.

I hope you're not too confused by this or your head would probably explode trying to figure out all the canceling going on in say, a Devil May Cry or Bayonetta or Street Fighter combo video. Vindictus is pretty brain dead simple with its canceling system. This probably has something to do with mmo players not typically encountering real time action games, so they aren't exactly up on the specifics or definitions.

Edit w/ youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz78iPXhiBk

First attack you can see LLLLR, where I am mashing left and right click, but the attack isn't cancelled, because you can't left or right click cancel out of that smash. Second attack I do LLLLR except move cancel it, which works (dodge or hs cancel would also work). Third, I start mashing right click to use honey bee sting - note that it can't cancel into itself, so no canceling occurs. Fourth, I start using honey bee sting while holding a movement key, which move cancels out of it repeatendly, and finish by attack canceling out it by left clicking. Anyway, regardless of whether she's move, attack, HS, or dodge canceling, they are all forms of canceling.

[Andy-Buddy]

No. Canceling is any action that interrupts the current animation frames and starts a different action with different animation frames. There is nothing special or different about heavy stander canceling compared to move canceling, dodge canceling, canceling into gliding fury, or whatever. Move canceling also shortens the time frame between attacks, as you are (work with me here) canceling out of the rest of her attack animation.

Just because the only way for sword fiona to cancel out of her attacks is by HSing doesn't give HS some magical, imaginary properties or special classification relative to other forms of canceling. They are all forms of canceling, regardless of the length of animation frames or how long it takes before you can cancel out of the animation.

Also, some of hammer fionas attacks can't be attack canceled out of into other attacks. Her honey bee sting single right click smash, for example. You can't just keep spamming right click, you have to move, dodge, hs cancel out of it or left click attack. You can't left or right click to cancel out of her LLLLR - you need to move, dodge, or HS cancel it. So you are actually wrong in some cases when stating that she can attack cancel out of her moves.

I hope you're not too confused by this or your head would probably explode trying to figure out all the canceling going on in say, a Devil May Cry or Bayonetta or Street Fighter combo video. Vindictus is pretty brain dead simple with its canceling system. This probably has something to do with mmo players not typically encountering real time action games, so they aren't exactly up on the specifics or definitions.

Edit w/ youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz78iPXhiBk

First attack you can see LLLLR, where I am mashing left and right click, but the attack isn't cancelled, because you can't left or right click cancel out of that smash. Second attack I do LLLLR except move cancel it, which works (dodge or hs cancel would also work). Third, I start mashing right click to use honey bee sting - note that it can't cancel into itself, so no canceling occurs. Fourth, I start using honey bee sting while holding a movement key, which move cancels out of it repeatendly, and finish by attack canceling out it by left clicking. Anyway, regardless of whether she's move, attack, HS, or dodge canceling, they are all forms of canceling.

1. HS is the ONLY thing you can do during the Sword delay phase.
You cannot move, dodge, or guard.

2. Certain animations are able to be cancelled with running, such as the Post-HS (with a small shield) knockback. This is irrelevant due to the fact we were talking about HS Cancel and its viability with hammers.

3. Certain animations can be cancelled with attacks. You can spam R and have attacks be spammed, and you can cut off a bit of the Butterfly Attack animation with a normal attack.

[TheBoulder]

1. HS is the ONLY thing you can do during the Sword delay phase.
You cannot move, dodge, or guard.

2. Certain animations are able to be cancelled with running, such as the Post-HS (with a small shield) knockback. This is irrelevant due to the fact we were talking about HS Cancel and its viability with hammers.

3. Certain animations can be cancelled with attacks. You can spam R and have attacks be spammed, and you can cut off a bit of the Butterfly Attack animation with a normal attack.

1. Actually, if you can Heavy Stander cancel, it stands to reason that you can also Guard cancel, seeing as Guard needs to be inputted first before you can even Heavy Stander. The reason people use Heavy Stander to cancel is because tapping a Heavy Stander is significantly faster than tapping a Guard. Also, some moves (example: Amaranth Kick) can also be roll canceled.

Nothing to say on the other points, really.

[blahblahblahx]

1. HS is the ONLY thing you can do during the Sword delay phase.
You cannot move, dodge, or guard.

2. Certain animations are able to be cancelled with running, such as the Post-HS (with a small shield) knockback. This is irrelevant due to the fact we were talking about HS Cancel and its viability with hammers.

3. Certain animations can be cancelled with attacks. You can spam R and have attacks be spammed, and you can cut off a bit of the Butterfly Attack animation with a normal attack.


1 This isn't technically correct. You have to guard to get into HS. What you should be saying is you can't move, dodge, or attack cancel out of attacks as sword. Not that I ever stated otherwise, so you're just being redundant (on top of wrong).

2 Actually, I was correcting people on the definition of an attack cancel. It should be obvious it's not worth HSing with hammer as she has other options for canceling her attacks.

3 Please look at the video or test it yourself. You can't cancel honey bee sting into itself by spamming right click.

[Andy-Buddy]

1. Actually, if you can Heavy Stander cancel, it stands to reason that you can also Guard cancel, seeing as Guard needs to be inputted first before you can even Heavy Stander. The reason people use Heavy Stander to cancel is because tapping a Heavy Stander is significantly faster than tapping a Guard. Also, some moves (example: Amaranth Kick) can also be roll canceled.

Nothing to say on the other points, really.

Though unexpected, guard does not happen until after the animation finishes. Guard is delayed until that point, though Heavy Stander bypasses this.


1 This isn't technically correct. You have to guard to get into HS. What you should be saying is you can't move, dodge, or attack cancel out of attacks as sword. Not that I ever stated otherwise, so you're just being redundant (on top of wrong).

2 Actually, I was correcting people on the definition of an attack cancel. It should be obvious it's not worth HSing with hammer as she has other options for canceling her attacks.

3 Please look at the video or test it yourself. You can't cancel honey bee sting into itself by spamming right click.

1. Look above.

2. Agreed.

3. Upon testing, I've found it curious that you're right. But for the rest of her smashes, or even starting a normal attack combo, the delay is removed by the first hammer swing, so that possibly is a form of cancelling, but to a lesser degree.

[blahblahblahx]

3. Upon testing, I've found it curious that you're right. But for the rest of her smashes, or even starting a normal attack combo, the delay is removed by the first hammer swing, so that possibly is a form of cancelling, but to a lesser degree.Like I've said a couple times already, canceling is ANY action you take that cancels and replaces a previous action and its related animation frames. That's just how it works in the video game world. And it's not just honey bee sting. Stigma Hammer cannot be canceled into another attack, whether left or right click. It needs to be move, dodge, or HS canceled. See video or test for yourself, again.

[Gotejjeken]

I was once biased against hammers as the Fiona's using them seem to be the worse players in the game. After trying one myself, I must say it does seem to be a lot better than sword (in fact after going back to sword I was getting hit a lot more as I can't just move cancel). Speaking of canceling, I see Heavy Stander Canceling as more of a workaround than anything...and maybe that is intended since sword attacks are faster than hammer attacks. The fact that you can just move out of pretty much any hammer smash is one of the main factors of me now favoring it over sword.

[blahblahblahx]

Hammers slowness is definitely a problem. When using hammers against BL, if he decides to turn and attack you, I just don't have enough time to wait for the un-cancelable portion of the hammer swing to finish before blocking. Best way to do it is just constant LR swings, but then your damage isn't that great.

[Andy-Buddy]

Hammers slowness is definitely a problem. When using hammers against BL, if he decides to turn and attack you, I just don't have enough time to wait for the un-cancelable portion of the hammer swing to finish before blocking. Best way to do it is just constant LR swings, but then your damage isn't that great.

Just know his patterns. You can time most of your attacks pretty well just by guarding most of it.

Anyways, even with swords, you can't get that many hits in. Might as well have whatever hits you get in count.

(Especially with his high defense. Higher the defense, the more your damage matters.)

[Nichibon]

Just saw this great thread...thanks to the OP for putting time to research this topic and post this info...it's very useful.

Props to Papa for that awesome vid tho...very inspiring...i've been practicing Hidden for solo since I saw it lol. It is alot harder than you make it look...but I am determined to get it down @_@

[phresh]

...
Props to Papa for that awesome vid tho...very inspiring...i've been practicing Hidden for solo since I saw it lol. It is alot harder than you make it look...but I am determined to get it down @_@

I found Papa's vid quite inspiring as well. I don't believe that was his second time ever playing Fiona, though. I main Fiona and it took me 10-20 tries to get it down. I haven't used a sword since then.

Oh whoa, I live in SD too. Too bad you play on East.

[Mama]

I found Papa's vid quite inspiring as well. I don't believe that was his second time ever playing Fiona, though. I main Fiona and it took me 10-20 tries to get it down. I haven't used a sword since then.

Oh whoa, I live in SD too. Too bad you play on East.

it was his second time using my character, but he did run it for a couple hours before making the finalized video.
he's just unnatural when it comes to games so don't let it get you down. i can hardly do a perfect run and ive been using fiona forever..

[Nichibon]

Not as good/fast as papa, but finally got it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FFnQcEi1FE

[blahblahblahx]

Congrats.

[Mama]

how come you didn't butterfly after PGing his left claw? That would have cut your clear time considerably.

but yea, nice job.

[Nichibon]

how come you didn't butterfly after PGing his left claw? That would have cut your clear time considerably.

but yea, nice job.

First time solo'ing it without getting owned, so i played it safe by just using counter attack. I will try the butterfly swing at some point :)

[Mama]

First time solo'ing it without getting owned, so i played it safe by just using counter attack. I will try the butterfly swing at some point :)

goodluck!

[Kendrak]

thanks for all the comments :) ive been playing pretty much exclusively hammer for a while now and have seen the beauty of butterfly and other attacks. i still maintain my statement that sword is safer because of stander crutch and that in the right hands hammer is more effective in many circumstances but ive also seen that in future boats and specifically hero mode many bosses dont have the kinds of openings they do now...and therefore you often are only allowed an orchid strike or maybe butterfly where with a sword you could get 2 or 3 hits of blossom...so who knows, its still of course up to preference.

i managed to emulate papas run, and all credit to him for the amazing job, it was inspirational...heres my vid, im cheating using a +7 hammer and extra potions, but my spiders also pretty *****y early on doing nothing but smashing for the first minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkZcGBBO2N4

[Andy-Buddy]

Impressive, Kendrak.

I do find sword safer, but many times with a sword I wish I could have a bit more power. I guess it is a trade off, but it evens out in the end, especially as you become a much more technical hammer user. You begin to use your shield more for quicker attacks, and use the hammer for sure-hits.

(Once Shield Rush comes out, I wonder if there is a noticeable difference in damage between a hammer and a sword of similar level.)

[Mama]

nice job ken.
the +7 stigma sure stuns the spider A LOT!

and yea, I'm sticking with hammer until I meet a boss where I need to be quicker on my toes.

[Kendrak]

thanks :D it really does. i think its possible to do the spider with it in like 1:30 if he doesn't act up like he did. but it really shows the effectiveness of your strategy XD

[Mama]

thanks :D it really does. i think its possible to do the spider with it in like 1:30 if he doesn't act up like he did. but it really shows the effectiveness of your strategy XD

aw i cant take credit for papas work, he simply used my character while I watched.

but yea the spider was a smashin spammer for a good minute :<

[23237]

I know this is essentially a dead thread, but I was wondering what you thought about the usefulness of the extra attacks of butterfly after the recent patch, as the developers said they buffed it. This of course being compared to a 0charge Stigma. Just curious as to what you think.

[Gotejjeken]

Butterfly got broken...in a good way. Slashing high is now a must if you want to 'butterfly2win', that is gain the highest DPS with little effort, as long as the target isn't moving around all that much. It actually has become a lot more versatile also due to hammer's speed upgrade.

[23237]

So is stigma/single butterfly still the better choice against most bosses? Or is butterfly spam miraculously more efficient? Also, around what height should i make my fiona? It's currently around [-----------------------------o----] but I was wondering if lowering the height some would be better, and which height would be optimal for bossing. Also, am I the only one who gets beat up upon by trash mobs in Fleeing Gnoll King? It seems like they're harder to deal with than the boss...

[Invertex]

So is stigma/single butterfly still the better choice against most bosses? Or is butterfly spam miraculously more efficient? Also, around what height should i make my fiona? It's currently around [-----------------------------o----] but I was wondering if lowering the height some would be better, and which height would be optimal for bossing. Also, am I the only one who gets beat up upon by trash mobs in Fleeing Gnoll King? It seems like they're harder to deal with than the boss...

Stigma has it's uses still, however I don't know them off hand as I don't specialize in hammers. Butterfly is mainly used when the boss is stunned, in conjunction with Slashing High to give unlimited stamina. A good hammer will make the DPS from 15 or so seconds of Butterfly beat out the damage of a Shield Charge, making it a better use of SP.

Minimum height is the general preference when using a Fiona, simply as her playstyle usually has you right on top of the boss. This means the reach from height is not necesary, and thus maximizing attack speed is optimal. However it's pretty minor so don't burn NX on changing it.

Trash mobs are somewhat annoying, but try using Sprint Smash to knock them down and prepare a proper combo. Butterfly is very good (as I stated in response to your post in questions).

[23237]

Again thanks for your help. I have so much trouble with Fiona haha. And I don't mind burning the nx if it helps even a little bit because I need every boost I can get.