"God" and Religion.

[Cannibal]

What are your views on religion, and more importantly, "God"?

I've never practiced religion formally, and I only remember going to church a few times as a child, and for weddings and such. I don't see a need in having a set religion, but I can't exactly explain what that means to me.

As for the whole God subject (pertaining to Christianity and related religions), I've got that all figured out. Here's my thing:
Why create man, give him free will, but then make it so that, "If you don't worship me, you'll suffer for all eternity..."(Now, I haven't studied the Bible, or anything like that, but is that not pretty much what it's all about?)Is that not cruel?

After deciding myself that it was, I realized that believing in something bigger and more mighty than us just wasn't for me. I can't grasp the concept of something that has never showed itself, and nobody seriously, honestly, 100% knows exists.

I know people say things like, "Well, you can't see black holes, but you know they're there, right?"
That's because it can be proven. I simply reply with, "Please, prove to me that your God exists, give me evidence, and I'll change everything I believe."

I know all of that up there probably doesn't make any sense to any of you, but you get the main question. So, what about God and Religion?

[Cucurbita]

Oh no.

inb4lock.

I thought religious debates were banned.

[Cannibal]

OH YES. IT HAS TO HAPPEN.

[Hiccup]

Oh boy this is gonna be trouble.

I do not believe in God, or a higher power. I think that evolution (is proven) is natural and putting God up on a pedestal is just an explanation for the unknown. The Bible talks about all these morals but does anybody really follow them? No. I could also bring up corruption and the crusades against the church's enemies and also forcing other countries into their religion through missionaries. Yeah.... no thanks. I've been to church maybe 3 times, and I found it extremely boring and they try and milk your money so bad!! The priest didn't even make sense and I zoned out after 5 seconds mostly cause I had no idea what he was talking about.

[Criticalxhit]

Well, if you read the Same-Sex Marriage Debate thread, you'll probably know I'm Christian (not a certain denomination). If this thread goes off topic...
As for your questions, I'm too tired to write another essay for you... maybe Trigger will :P Maybe tomorrow

EDIT:I already have a few things to say after reading the posts that Ninja'd me, but I won't comment until tomorrow...

[BobYoMeowMeow]

Oh no.

inb4lock.

I thought religious debates were banned.
These never go well

[EndlessDreams]

If you do not worship the one and only god, the almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster, you will be going to hell. End of story.

[Cannibal]

Oh man, the Flying Spaghetti Monster...Reminds me of the Myspace pandemic.

[Andy-Buddy]

I see it as 1 of 4 different possibilities.

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists, but doesn't act. (That's in its own way, sort of evil.)
3. God exists, but has no power. (Not all powerful as everyone says.)
4. God exists, and has power and acts, but it is in a "mysterious way" that no one can understand. (Apparently affects believers and non-believers.)

[Cannibal]

I see it as 1 of 4 different possibilities.

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists, but doesn't act. (That's in its own way, sort of evil.)
3. God exists, but has no power. (Not all powerful as everyone says.)
4. God exists, and has power and acts, but it is in a "mysterious way" that no one can understand. (Apparently affects believers and non-believers.)

I could probably live with both two and three. Two brings up what I said before, it just pisses me off that if he's there, he doesn't do ****, but expects people to get on their knees for him. Yeah, no thanks.

[Hiccup]

Even if God like pooofed (cause thats what it would sound like:chomp:) in front of me. I wouldn't worship him o_o

[Iyasenu]

I believe in God, but it's cuz i want to... and it helps me cope with things.

Plus I loved my mom too much to think that she isn't where i believe she is right now.

It's just faith. But that's all I can say about religion.
Nothing can change my views.
But I don't really share them with others. There's a word for what i feel...
The whole believing in my religion but not saying that others are wrong...

I dunno, personal heaven. Go for it.
It works for me, anyways.

All I really have to do is be a good person, hm. :p

Just >.< don't talk to me about my religion... it's...
it reminds me that i'm supposed to help spread it... but it goes against my personal convictions of letting people live believing in what they want to.

I think of it like this: I believe in God and heaven and hell. I want to. So i do. Someone else has different views. I don't disbelieve them. But I don't try to talk to them about it either.

I guess I like to hold onto my views, but keep from talking about them...
It's just... easier?

And I can never change my views. If only for my loved ones who're gone, then for myself.
But for now, it's just the here and now, right?

also, yeah I kinda fit into Andy's #4.

I can't place it, and I can't prove it really, but I believe it still.
It might sound foolish but... that's my view anyways.

[BobYoMeowMeow]

If God exists, he's the biggest troll ever owo.

[Cucurbita]

Even if God like pooofed (cause thats what it would sound like:chomp:) in front of me. I wouldn't worship him o_o

You can't.
If God existed, he'd probably be omnipotent enough to know that you're just sucking up to him.

Being true to yourself is probably more respectable.


If God exists, he's the biggest troll ever owo.

Seriously.

[Cannibal]

If he exists, he probably just sits there all day and lol's at us...

[BobYoMeowMeow]

Oh and here's another thing
All animals like the cat don't believe in religion, because it's purely human invention.

[Hiccup]

@Iyasenu Go through a really rough depression and tell me what you think of God for putting you through that, tell me how he comes to rescue you. annnnd why doesn't he let others know that your depressed. Is he there to save you when and if you commit suicide?

Why does God create serial killers, rapists, child molesters, kidnappers, thieves, terrorists. Why did he even let the creation of the gun happen?

Either God is seriously fu#@ed up and is a huge masochist (is that the right term for someone who enjoys pain?) and gets off on the suffering of others, oooor has seriously fu#@ed up ways of working.


Not hating cause if you believe in God. Good for you. If it makes you a better person, even better. But yea.... :I

[Cannibal]

Or he isn't there.

But, if I were religious I would probably counter your creation of "bad people" idea with "free will."
****ing...That free will thing, just pisses me off.

[Cucurbita]

If he exists, he probably just sits there all day and lol's at us...

I've got a joke for everyone.

A very average man one day met God. They had a short conversation.
Man: Hey, since the scope of the world is so vast that we can't even comprehend it, wouldn't one second for you be like a billion years for us?
God: Something like that.
Man: Then, wouldn't one dollar for you be like a billion dollars for us?
God: Of course.
Man: Then, could you just spare me one dollar?
God: Sure thing, just give me one second.

[Cannibal]

I lol'd...

[Shanghai]

@Iyasenu Go through a really rough depression and tell me what you think of God for putting you through that, tell me how he comes to rescue you. annnnd why doesn't he let others know that your depressed. Is he there to save you when and if you commit suicide?

Why does God create serial killers, rapists, child molesters, kidnappers, thieves, terrorists. Why did he even let the creation of the gun happen?

Either God is seriously fu#@ed up and is a huge masochist (is that the right term for someone who enjoys pain?) and gets off on the suffering of others, oooor has seriously fu#@ed up ways of working.


Not hating cause if you believe in God. Good for you. If it makes you a better person, even better. But yea.... :I

It's not God, it's sin. Because Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent, sin came to haunt us as the tree of knowledge gave them the ability to distinguish from right and wrong and stray from God's path, creating sin. God allowed it, but we would not be able to be as high as him. He treasures us dearly, and died to forgive our sins. That doesn't mean it's gone though. Sin is created by the devil, and temptation is one of them.

Yes, I'm Christian, but I don't wanna go any further than this because you guys are gonna bash me with your own beliefs and I'm not ready for Missionaries or anything so I can't counter your arguments. So, please, go easy~ :oops:

[Mrlucky77]

I see it as 1 of 4 different possibilities.

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists, but doesn't act. (That's in its own way, sort of evil.)
3. God exists, but has no power. (Not all powerful as everyone says.)
4. God exists, and has power and acts, but it is in a "mysterious way" that no one can understand. (Apparently affects believers and non-believers.)

Well, isn't God a diety? Dieties arent supposed to interact with the world (only a little I guess) and can only assist people spiritually, mentally, and psychologically. Doesn't faith, hope, and happiness from believing in a god fall into those three categories?

Also, this is pretty interesting.
Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager)

[Hiccup]

Or he isn't there.

But, if I were religious I would probably counter your creation of "bad people" idea with "free will."
****ing...That free will thing, just pisses me off.

People choose to be poor and get raped/killed/kidnapped/anything else horrible?


It's not God, it's sin. Because Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent, sin came to haunt us as the tree of knowledge gave them the ability to distinguish from right and wrong and stray from God's path, creating sin. God allowed it, but we would not be able to be as high as him. He treasures us dearly, and died to forgive our sins. That doesn't mean it's gone though. Sin is created by the devil, and temptation is one of them.

Yes, I'm Christian, but I don't wanna go any further than this because you guys are gonna bash me with your own beliefs.

Lies no I wont. Incest is best then?

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/apologetics/adameve.html

[Iyasenu]

I've got a joke for everyone.

A very average man one day met God. They had a short conversation.
Man: Hey, since the scope of the world is so vast that we can't even comprehend it, wouldn't one second for you be like a billion years for us?
God: Something like that.
Man: Then, wouldn't one dollar for you be like a billion dollars for us?
God: Of course.
Man: Then, could you just spare me one dollar?
God: Sure thing, just give me one second.

xD Nice

that was funny :p

[Cannibal]

Well, it's all his fault, anyway.


People choose to be poor and get raped/killed/kidnapped/anything else horrible?
No, people choose to be wrongful and bad...

[Hiccup]

No, people choose to be wrongful and bad...

But if God loves his people dearly, and died for us. Why would he even let the sinners harm those who are innocent?

[Mrlucky77]

@Iyasenu Go through a really rough depression and tell me what you think of God for putting you through that, tell me how he comes to rescue you. annnnd why doesn't he let others know that your depressed. Is he there to save you when and if you commit suicide?

Why does God create serial killers, rapists, child molesters, kidnappers, thieves, terrorists. Why did he even let the creation of the gun happen?

Either God is seriously fu#@ed up and is a huge masochist (is that the right term for someone who enjoys pain?) and gets off on the suffering of others, oooor has seriously fu#@ed up ways of working.


Not hating cause if you believe in God. Good for you. If it makes you a better person, even better. But yea.... :I

Again, it's because he's a diety. HE CANNOT INTERACT WITH THE WORLD ALOT I GUESS. Just like Godhead Pickle Inspector in PS. He can only 'God: Fondly regard creation' and interact with problems that would result that would end the existence of the universe. (eg. DMK's Fill em with daylight ripped the universe apart, so GPI acted to save the universe.)



But if God loves his people dearly, and died for us. Why would he even let the sinners harm those who are innocent?

Also, the bible states that those who are wicked will suffer and regret their choices later on. This is basically like a game of life. Not the Life boardgame, but life itself. When people choose to not study alot in their youth (aka being evil) they tend to end up horrible in life and with a lot of life problems and stuff like that and regret their choices. However, people that study alot and do well in school and graduate (aka the innocent) are rewarded later on in their adult life (afterlife) and become truly happy.

[Cannibal]

Free will. Why mess with something he allowed?

[Cucurbita]

My idea behind "if god exists" is that he created the laws which we are all bound to.

The laws of physics and chemistry that make up this world. Its perfect, mathematical, and fits in together... locks in.

But he hasn't done anything since. Or perhaps he's doing something else. But definitely not doing anything with the humans of planet earth, only one of the uncountable number of planets out there that hold life.

But believers of God should be quite aware that half the stuff written in any text about religion is a nonsense put in by what people thought at the time. And its because of this that recent science challenges so many things in the bible, and its because of this that the bible contradicts itself so often.

The bible is a fine piece of literature with some excellent suggestions on better living, but not much more. Too many people have died or made their lives less comfortable by trying to follow the exact teachings of the bible.

[Andy-Buddy]

Well, isn't God a diety? Dieties arent supposed to interact with the world (only a little I guess) and can only assist people spiritually, mentally, and psychologically. Doesn't faith, hope, and happiness from believing in a god fall into those three categories?

Also, this is pretty interesting.
Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager)

Read about it, but the thing about religion is, I'm too lazy to worship, and I honestly can't worship something I don't believe.

[Shanghai]

But if God loves his people dearly, and died for us. Why would he even let the sinners harm those who are innocent?

Just because he died for our sins only forgives them. He can't prevent it from happening, it's human nature.

[Iyasenu]

Well, isn't God a diety? Dieties arent supposed to interact with the world (only a little I guess) and can only assist people spiritually, mentally, and psychologically. Doesn't faith, hope, and happiness from believing in a god fall into those three categories?

Also, this is pretty interesting.
Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager)

that pascal's wager thing is interesting...

what's the downside to it? xD

[Hiccup]

So since God comes in to stop the end of the Universe? Is he gonna save us all from 2012? More importantly is he gonna stop those who will commit suicide before 2012 hits (when it gets closer yaknow?) cause I guarantee that some people will kill themselves in fear of 2012.

[Shanghai]

So since God comes in to stop the end of the Universe? Is he gonna save us all from 2012? More importantly is he gonna stop those who will commit suicide before 2012 hits (when it gets closer yaknow?) cause I guarantee that some people will kill themselves in fear of 2012.

There's no proof that 2012 exists. But then you can say God doesn't exist as well, so I can't really counter that with evidence.

[Iyasenu]

Again, it's because he's a diety. HE CANNOT INTERACT WITH THE WORLD ALOT I GUESS. Just like Godhead Pickle Inspector in PS. He can only 'God: Fondly regard creation' and interact with problems that would result that would end the existence of the universe. (eg. DMK's Fill em with daylight ripped the universe apart, so GPI acted to save the universe.)




Also, the bible states that those who are wicked will suffer and regret their choices later on. This is basically like a game of life. Not the Life boardgame, but life itself. When people choose to not study alot in their youth (aka being evil) they tend to end up horrible in life and with a lot of life problems and stuff like that and regret their choices. However, people that study alot and do well in school and graduate (aka the innocent) are rewarded later on in their adult life (afterlife) and become truly happy.

lol that was a good part of the story xD
it was interesting to see him do something that cool.
even if it was sewing :P

[Cannibal]

2012 is Internet BS, anyway. You can't count on forever, and someone had to stop somewhere with their calendars...

Like I said before, though. Free will. If you wanna kill yourself, go for it. You can, can't you? Nobody's stopping you...
Why would he stop someone from free will? He's allowed it.

[Hiccup]

Haha yeah I guess you're right.

So if God knows what your going to do before you even do it, how is that free will?

[Cucurbita]

I guarantee that some people will kill themselves in fear of 2012.

I thought it was depressing that this would happen. 2012 is just a marketing ploy to make money, so businesses try extra hard to convince people that its real.

My mom just said its better to let retards die.

._.

[Shanghai]

Haha yeah I guess you're right.

So if God knows what your going to do before you even do it, how is that free will?

He doesn't exactly stop you from doing it though, so you're free to do whatever you want. There's just the consequences later on.

[Cannibal]

I've encountered the whole "God knows all" problem, and I choose to look past it, because it complicates EVERYTHING.
But even still, even if he knows, it's still free will.

See why I don't believe any of it?

[Mrlucky77]

Haha yeah I guess you're right.

So if God knows what your going to do before you even do it, how is that free will?

It's free will because he lets you do it even if he knows it's bad.

[Hiccup]

He doesn't exactly stop you from doing it though, so you're free to do whatever you want. There's just the consequences later on.

No he won't stop you but the choice is made. God didn't make it, you did but not yet. God just knows the events in the future that will lead to that decision.... but if he truly loved his people wouldn't he make signs or give them visions of them talking to God. I don't see how that is free will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology
Ya know like those people who wrote the bible said

[Juno]

This isn't really something that can be debated. It can't be proven or disproven and even suggestions pro and con won't be very convincing. There's literally no good that will come of it.

Religious debates aren't inherently bad but a general 'God and Religion' debate is far too open-ended. You basically have everyone come in and state their beliefs then whoever is more numerous begins informing the minority of how dumb they are. At the very least it needs to be restricted to one god and/or religion and even then it's not really a debate.

[Cannibal]

Why influence someone if they have free will? Really, it's one big cycle.


I promise you, by the time this thread is over, you'll never wanna hear "free will" again.



This isn't really something that can be debated. It can't be proven or disproven and even suggestions pro and con won't be very convincing. There's literally no good that will come of it.

Religious debates aren't inherently bad but a general 'God and Religion' debate is far too open-ended. You basically have everyone come in and state their beliefs then whoever is more numerous begins informing the minority of how dumb they are. At the very least it needs to be restricted to one god and/or religion and even then it's not really a debate.

Sure, but it passes time, and lets everyone else in everyone else's heads. And who doesn't enjoy that?

[Shanghai]

No he won't stop you but the choice is made. God didn't make it, you did but not yet. God just knows the events in the future that will lead to that decision.... but if he truly loved his people wouldn't he make signs or give them visions of them talking to God. I don't see how that is free will.
Free will in theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology)
Ya know like those people who wrote the bible said

He does... You just don't have enough faith in him.

[Blassreiter]

God does not exist, in my opinion religion is just a concept used by individuals to maintain order in society and/or build a unionized power.

Why God does not exist
*They say "God created the universe", then that means God apparently created Venus as "he" (why is God known as a male? Shouldn't God be genderless? Or not Human? This is bias against women) created Earth. If God really did create the universe, then why aren't there any believers of God in Venus, or organisms?
*If God created the universe, then everything in the universe is basically God's children. Why would a parent allow their own kids to kill each other? And of course why would anyone believe in such a figure?
*God has been personified multiple times, in my opinion humans are not capable of doing something such as creating the universe (also some religious followers believe that magic is evil, yet isn't "Creating the universe out of thin air more magical than a Firebolt?")
*Islam, Judaism, Christianity. These three big religions claim there is a god, yet they do not fully coexist with each other, in fact they conflict with each other. In the perspective that there is a god, this seems like there is more than one god since there are multiple claims.



Generally, I know there is no God. What is the point of God? What does God do for yourselves? Why is the universe still not fully explored?

[Hiccup]

Religious debates aren't inherently bad but a general 'God and Religion' debate is far too open-ended. You basically have everyone come in and state their beliefs then whoever is more numerous begins informing the minority of how dumb they are. At the very least it needs to be restricted to one god and/or religion and even then it's not really a debate.
Not bad atm. I mean there are more God believer then non-believers posting now and me and Saani doing just fine.

@Shanghai of course I don't. If you truly love someone why would you want them to be in pain and suffering? Why let them go through a hard time? That's not love, that's enjoying the suffering of others. Well maybe not enjoying but not caring about others.

@Above at the time the bible was written and revised woman were still inferior to man. Why? Cause Man said so.

[Iyasenu]

This isn't really something that can be debated. It can't be proven or disproven and even suggestions pro and con won't be very convincing. There's literally no good that will come of it.

Religious debates aren't inherently bad but a general 'God and Religion' debate is far too open-ended. You basically have everyone come in and state their beliefs then whoever is more numerous begins informing the minority of how dumb they are. At the very least it needs to be restricted to one god and/or religion and even then it's not really a debate.

This is true :\

I'm... not even sure what to add after this...

It doesn't look like I can debate this...
I basically have, pretty much, just stated my beliefs.

...


I feel dumb D:

I'm gonna go... metallurgy...
and wait for the update :<

:P

[EndlessDreams]

that pascal's wager thing is interesting...

what's the downside to it? xD

Pascal's wager only works if there is only possibility of one God.

However, there are infinite possible amount of deities, each with their own version of hell for you who don't believe in it. You will have to worship them all to avoid that punishment.

5 pages in under 30 minutes? Most active thread.


This isn't really something that can be debated. It can't be proven or disproven and even suggestions pro and con won't be very convincing. There's literally no good that will come of it.

Religious debates aren't inherently bad but a general 'God and Religion' debate is far too open-ended. You basically have everyone come in and state their beliefs then whoever is more numerous begins informing the minority of how dumb they are. At the very least it needs to be restricted to one god and/or religion and even then it's not really a debate.

You can't exactly prove that there is or there isn't a ninety-headed invisible dragon that is hiding in Pluto while controlling every human on Earth...

But how many people believe in such a thing?

[BobYoMeowMeow]

The cat is surprised that things didnt go out of hands

[Cannibal]

@Above at the time the bible was written and revised woman were still inferior to man. Why? Cause Man said so.
I WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO BRING UP MAN.
Who wrote the Bible? Uh, man did. Even if it were all TRUE, who makes mistakes? MAN DOES. HUGE mistakes.
Man, man, man. Hai2u, I could go write a big book right now, and my friends could go write some big books right now, and we could put it together and make a Bible. That makes it all true, right? Right?

[Hiccup]

I WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO BRING UP MAN.
Who wrote the Bible? Uh, man did. Even if it were all TRUE, who makes mistakes? MAN DOES. HUGE mistakes.
Man, man, man. Hai2u, I could go write a big book right now, and my friends could go write some big books right now, and we could put it together and make a Bible. That makes it all true, right? Right?

Actually if you get enough followers and believers then yes, you can become a God yourself. People will use almost anything to provide some sort of explanation due to fear of the unknown. Not knowing scares people, and God is just a way to explain our existence on the Blue Planet.

What about Hindu, Buddhism, etc etc (brain fart on other religions)? Are they right, do their god(s) exist and rule alongside "the" God?

[EndlessDreams]

I think this is a "fair" video about the religious debate. It is like two people throwing darts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xBHFP2s6dk

[Phunkie]

I don't believe in religion.

I like some things they say, however.

Some of them are things we should all follow.

Like, love thy neighbor, etc.



I think religion was created by Man to instill fear and therefore control others. A modern religion today would be Scientology.

I would like to believe in a God though, but just as a Creator, a Designer. 'Cause the Earth is a beautiful planet and the Universe is full of many wonders and mysteries. I'd like to blame someone for that instead of believing it was all pure coincidence.

Too bad I don't.

[Hiccup]

Actually if you get enough followers and believers then yes, you can become a God yourself. People will use almost anything to provide some sort of explanation due to fear of the unknown. Not knowing scares people, and God is just a way to explain our existence on the Blue Planet.

What about Hindu, Buddhism, etc etc (brain fart on other religions)? Are they right, do their god(s) exist and rule alongside "the" God?

Quoted cause I edited then got ninja'd

[Shanghai]

Ok, let me clear up my beliefs of why does God never help anyone in pain or suffering. Not because he can't be in every place at one time, but the time on Earth for us was devised by God to plan and pack our treasures to be on Heaven. Life is just the pathway you take before reaching the eternity you spend with God.

Think of it like an obstacle course. You mess up, you fail and that goes on your record. However, you get back up again and forgive God for that mistake, and he'll accept it. Eventually, this will keep occurring over and over until you reach the end of the road, which is death. Sometimes, actions are too critical to accept, and that harms your record. There is time in your course to store up treasures in Heaven, which are the people you converted to Christianity to be with you for the eternity about to come. You also have chances to show your faith to God, and that'll go on your record. The people that die faster than others will have less time to gather their treasures and faith, but God will judge you equally to the time others have spent on this Earth.

The end of your path is your death, and God plans it so. When you die, your soul is supposedly put somewhere for a time before you go up to Heaven. When you get to Heaven, God weighs your sin and your successes and your faith, and sends you to where you should be. People with with more faith and do more deeds will get rewarded with the treasure they stored in heaven. People with little faith will have to cope with the little amounts of treasure you stored. Then there is Hell, which I'm not too particularly sure about, but it's for the people who have constantly sinned and never asked God to forgive their sins.

[Shironi]

So you're saying life is nothing but an obstacle course to Heaven or Hell?

Why does not God foresee what you would do in your life before you are born, and give you however much treasure that you would've gotten anyway, because he is supposed to be omnipotent and omnisomething?

[Shanghai]

So you're saying life is nothing but an obstacle course to Heaven or Hell?

Why does not God foresee what you would do in your life before you are born, and give you however much treasure that you would've gotten anyway, because he is supposed to be omnipotent and omnisomething?

I'm assuming God does this to test your faith to him, and to see if you can battle the temptations of sin and for the treasure part, that would make you too lazy, and you probably wouldn't have met your friends in the first place on Earth if he just gave you all your treasures, which are your friends. You wouldn't be able to share the beliefs and your likes and dislikes with each other if God just randomly stuck you in Heaven with your supposedly-called friends and made you guys deal with it. There would be nothing to talk about.

[Andy-Buddy]

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/godathcomic.jpg

[Blassreiter]

I do not mean to offend anybody/anything. I am just stating points for this debate.

I believe people use God as an excuse so they do not have to do anything to gain anything. I see some "so called Christians" in my school, and they do not truly care about God and Heaven. They just mess with geeky kids and neglect their education and do drugs. I see them using the concept God as a ticket to a first class plane.

Also, what is this "prayer" that some religions do? Does it work? Why should people rely on their creator? Isn't the child suppose to learn from the parent to become self-sufficient?

If every human was created by "God" then why do people around the world practice different religions without a single god? Or a religion that is a belief of a person who had lived before? (e.g. Siddartha Gautama, or Kongfuzi)

[Hiccup]

Ok, let me clear up my beliefs of why does God never help anyone in pain or suffering. Not because he can't be in every place at one time, but the time on Earth for us was devised by God to plan and pack our treasures to be on Heaven. Life is just the pathway you take before reaching the eternity you spend with God.

Think of it like an obstacle course. You mess up, you fail and that goes on your record. However, you get back up again and forgive God for that mistake, and he'll accept it. Eventually, this will keep occurring over and over until you reach the end of the road, which is death. Sometimes, actions are too critical to accept, and that harms your record. There is time in your course to store up treasures in Heaven, which are the people you converted to Christianity to be with you for the eternity about to come. You also have chances to show your faith to God, and that'll go on your record. The people that die faster than others will have less time to gather their treasures and faith, but God will judge you equally to the time others have spent on this Earth.

The end of your path is your death, and God plans it so. When you die, your soul is supposedly put somewhere for a time before you go up to Heaven. When you get to Heaven, God weighs your sin and your successes and your faith, and sends you to where you should be. People with with more faith and do more deeds will get rewarded with the treasure they stored in heaven. People with little faith will have to cope with the little amounts of treasure you stored. Then there is Hell, which I'm not too particularly sure about, but it's for the people who have constantly sinned and never asked God to forgive their sins.

So converting someone to Christianity gets you rewarded? So people are now possessions if they convert cause of you. So by using others and bending their free will choice of not believing in Christianity to believing in Christianity is right? God sounds amazing. And why should I forgive God? Forgive God for putting me in a horrible situation? Forgive God for not helping out? Forgive God for the corruption of Man/Woman/Child?

[Juno]

It hasn't been super hostile as of yet, but since no conclusion can be reached the thread will simply spin on to infinity and beyond until fighting does break out. In the meantime nothing is learned and little if anything is gained.

I suppose I don't do any good saying this here though.

[Hiccup]

Learning about people's beliefs and trying to understand them only leads to a closer relationship. Shouldn't members of Guru at least understand each other?

[Kazuni]

Reasons I hate religious arguments:

a) God. - All knowing, can do anything, no explanation required.

b) Heaven&Hell. - imo, biased. Very very biased. I could go on and on about this factor. I mean, what human is born (created by God, perhaps) and is deemed to hell? Eg. Different religions (you go to hell), non-believer in any religion (you go to hell), homosexuality (you go to hell), incest (I love this one, Adam&Eve and such. Anyways, you go to hell), murder [even for religious reasons like Crusades] (you go to hell if you don't repent.) Even if you're a perfect person in every other aspect but the supposed imperfection or "sin" that you believe in another religion.. You. Go. To. Hell.

c) Sins. - Again, biased. What are sins? Everything is blamed on the "choices the person makes". Refer to b. Another huge factor.

d) Something else I was thinking about, but forgot. *edit. Oh yeah, relying on God. If they get in a tricky situation, "God will help me out. Everything happens for a reason." Well, sometimes God isn't there for you. That's why people die, okay?

e) Hardcore christians or of other religions - man those guys are intense.

I could go and dissect the bible and pick it apart, but I'd really rather not. There are a bunch of other things that I can't remember atm :\
There are contradictions on every page, part of the reason why I no longer believe in any religion. I used to go to church when I was little, but was never baptized, nor did I ever truly believe. I was too young, anyways.

[Cucurbita]

I believe in youkai jesus.

http://kazasou.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/konachan-com-57125-dress-flowers-hijiri_byakuren-long_hair-purple_hair-touhou.jpg

[Shanghai]

So converting someone to Christianity gets you rewarded? So people are now possessions if they convert cause of you. So by using others and bending their free will choice of not believing in Christianity to believing in Christianity is right? God sounds amazing. And why should I forgive God? Forgive God for putting me in a horrible situation? Forgive God for not helping out? Forgive God for the corruption of Man/Woman/Child?

The goal of converting others is not only for your own personal benefit of having them with you for an eternity with God, but to get more people to the Holy Kingdom of God and away from sin. You forgive God for the sins you have commited. He'll accept them and forgive you because he died for our sins, but that doesn't mean he necessarily makes them disappear out of thin air like nothing happened. The Corruption of Man/Woman/Child was caused by the serpent, or Satan/Sin.

@Kitaek: So you believe in me? XD But really, all she wanted was just to have the youkai and humans co-exist so there would be no strife or anything. The saving stuff was just part of her act until she changed in her sealment.

[Kazuni]

The goal of converting others is not only for your own personal benefit of having them with you for an eternity with God, but to get more people to the Holy Kingdom of God and away from sin. You forgive God for the sins you have commited. He'll accept them and forgive you because he died for our sins, but that doesn't mean he necessarily makes them disappear out of thin air like nothing happened. The Corruption of Man/Woman/Child was caused by the serpent, or Satan/Sin.

That's kind of what bothers me.

"God created everything."
"Wait, so why is there corruption?"
"Blame Satan."

For everything good, it's God. Everything bad that contradicts, it's because of Satan.

[Hiccup]

The goal of converting others is not only for your own personal benefit of having them with you for an eternity with God, but to get more people to the Holy Kingdom of God and away from sin. You forgive God for the sins you have commited. He'll accept them and forgive you because he died for our sins, but that doesn't mean he necessarily makes them disappear out of thin air like nothing happened. The Corruption of Man/Woman/Child was caused by the serpent, or Satan/Sin.
And what if they were perfectly happy, non sinners (despite everyone having sinned) and in a different religion? I don't see why I should forgive God for something I have done. Did God make me do it? Did God influence me to that choice? I mean really, it doesn't make any sense.

[Iyasenu]

I believe in youkai jesus.

http://kazasou.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/konachan-com-57125-dress-flowers-hijiri_byakuren-long_hair-purple_hair-touhou.jpg

win

:D

Oh, the world of Dharma is filled with Light~

[Shanghai]

And what if they were perfectly happy, non sinners (despite everyone having sinned) and in a different religion? I don't see why I should forgive God for something I have done. Did God make me do it? Did God influence me to that choice? I mean really, it doesn't make any sense.

The path God gives you which are your decisions are strayed by sin and temptation to do other things, which causes you to not follow God's will. That's why you must forgive him and to get back on tract on his path. If they were perfectly happy, you would still want them to come with you to Heaven so you can spend your happy lives with them.

@Iyasenu: That's not correct. It's "O, the Dharma is filled with Light~" Dharma means vitreous path or something, so the world of a path doesn't make sense. Trust me, I know. I RPed as her. :thumb:

I really should be working on my homework right now.:oops:

[Hiccup]

Despite being happy and content full-filling what their God wants? This makes God sound greedy. I shouldn't have to force/influence others to see my beliefs if they don't originally believe in it them self. On his path? I shouldn't have to follow his path, where's my free will? I shouldn't be punished by going to hell or not having "treasures" in heaven for a life I chose to live.

[Cucurbita]

That's kind of what bothers me.

"God created everything."
"Wait, so why is there corruption?"
"Blame Satan."

For everything good, it's God. Everything bad that contradicts, it's because of Satan.

Thats just the "simple answer" told to maintain faith.
The christian God is not perfect and makes quite a number of mistakes.

I have no issues with religion until the "you are not saved" nonsense is argued. God must be real douche bag if you go to hell for not believing in him. Even if I WANTED to I couldn't believe without 100% solid evidence, and who can actually blame me? And why rule over fear? Why is it that the overall end reason to believe in God "to avoid going to hell" like a threat? What about the 80% of the global population who haven't even been given a CHANCE, never even HEARD of Christ?

I rather go to hell than worship a God who is that unfair.

If I had a God, its not your God.

[Hiccup]

1 hour we managed 73 replies (including this one) and it didn't get flame infested! That's something.

I agree, but then again I don't believe in Hell. I just think when I die. I'm done. My body will rot in the ground and people will move on and eventually forget about me.

[Crazed420]

I am not a religious man, and I do not call to a "God". But at the same time I will not deny a true God. If there is a power in this universe mankind is probably best not to know of it. However, the journey towards meaning and truth can be very rewarding for your soul and inner peace. One is best to believe that anything is possible but that it is also possible that there is nothing. All religion was created by man for man to help explain that which could not and/or can not be explained. While the search for meaning can be very rewarding, the search may very likely end in nothing mroe than further question come the end of your life. Only in religion can one have an answer to which they can believe. I believe in only that which I can believe with my own common sense and reasoning.

Leave me to my philosophy. I find it silly to go by a belief, I find it better to have a good idea.

[Cucurbita]

1 hour we managed 73 replies (including this one) and it didn't get flame infested! That's something.

I agree, but then again I don't believe in Hell. I just think when I die. I'm done. My body will rot in the ground and people will move on and eventually forget about me.

Conscious thought is handled by the electrical activities in your brain cells. After death is just the "end". A forever sleep without dreams.

[Juno]

Learning about people's beliefs and trying to understand them only leads to a closer relationship. Shouldn't members of Guru at least understand each other?

An ambiguous "debate" which is opened essentially by the poster saying "I don't understand these people" is not an environment conducive to learning. If someone wants to know something about Christianity, which I am familiar with, I'd be happy to help them but that's not really a debate. For example, I could show Kitaek where in Exodus his question about the people who never hear about Jesus is answered...but there's little point to trying to do so in this setting especially since he could in theory be referring to any religion. I've been down this road before and gone through all the 'contradictions'. Before I lost my hard drive I even had a collection of websites that were often quoted so I could answer questions before they were asked. The problem is it does no good under the premise of debate.

Endless Dream's video does a fairly good job of explaining it.

P.S. The level of hostility is influenced by perception. While some are comfortable, others are not.

[Phunkie]

Sometimes I think Satan is just as powerful as the Christian God. Not any more, not any less.

That's why they co-exist so perfectly.

Good and evil.


With that said, if there is a God, I don't think the God of the Bible is the same guy as whoever is out there.

The Christian God is an angry fool.

[Cucurbita]

Sometimes I think Satan is just as powerful as the Christian God. Not any more, not any less.

That's why they co-exist so perfectly.

Good and evil.


With that said, if there is a God, I don't think the God of the Bible is the same guy as whoever is out there.

The Christian God is an angry fool.

Yin and Yang, or natural balanced order keeping the world from chaos, is a recurring theme in ALL religions.

[Phunkie]

Yin and Yang, or natural balanced order keeping the world from chaos, is a recurring theme in ALL religions.

I know. It's just that Christians make it seem like God is superior to Satan in each and every way.

I like to think that there is a balance between both of them.

[Kazuni]

Oh oh oh. I thought of something else.

Heaven and hell is black and white. They're complete opposites, evil and good.

What is your definition of evil?

There is no yes no answer to whether someone should go to hell. Nobody has the right to judge someone based on their actions (which, as you all probably know, are heavily influenced by environment and other factors), which they were not completely responsible for. Nobody goes out randomly and kills someone. There is a reason. You cannot judge someone solely on the fact that they committed what is considered a "sin". No, I don't believe anyone has the right, or reason, or any sort of excuse to decide someone's afterlife (not saying I believe that there is one). Even if God created humankind, it doesn't mean he has the right either to decide this. We are not toys that an owner can decide the fate of, humans have consciousness, reason, and feelings.

This fact pisses me off a lot. Hardcore christian friends (I still consider them friends, even with this sometimes happening) constantly tell people that they're going to hell because they don't believe. They tell us to convert while we still have the chance and God "may forgive us". Apparently, we're committing great sins by not worshiping their God. What also steps on a nerve is the homosexuality, bisexuality, incest, and all that, argument. The whole, "born with it or not" argument that I'm starting to hate now.

What I'm getting at. Nobody has the right to decide the afterlife, nobody has the right to judge sins or what sins even are. There is no fixed definition for sin, like there is no fixed definition for moral. It's all inside your head, and what each person thinks. Even if God was the creator, he shouldn't be the one to decide what happens after creation.

My opinion.

[Phunkie]

Even if God was the creator, he shouldn't be the one to decide what happens after creation.

My opinion.

Just like a parent can't make choices for his or her kid always. There comes that time where your child isn't a child anymore.

Gotta let them make their own choices and guide them along the way.

But without condemning them.


God says, listen to me or I will send you to hell.

He doesn't offer advice or suggestions. He says, "This or that. Pick."

[Kazuni]

Just like a parent can't make choices for his or her kid always. There comes that time where your child isn't a child anymore.

Gotta let them make their own choices and guide them along the way.

But without condemning them.


God says, listen to me or I will send you to hell.

He doesn't offer advice or suggestions. He says, "This or that. Pick."

Yeah, it's too "yes or no" for me.

[Virtue]

I WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO BRING UP MAN.
Who wrote the Bible? Uh, man did. Even if it were all TRUE, who makes mistakes? MAN DOES. HUGE mistakes.
Man, man, man. Hai2u, I could go write a big book right now, and my friends could go write some big books right now, and we could put it together and make a Bible. That makes it all true, right? Right?
Wrong.

You ask what authority that the Old Testament relies upon.

The authority of Divine Inspiration.

You may ask yourself "Are they the unenumerated teachings of Jesus or just messages from the Holy Spirit passed on to the disciples?"
The latter would be a much better definition.

To concentrate on certain parts of the Bible to the exclusion of others is unbalanced and dangerous. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16).

The Epistles, for example, were written to instruct us on the practical outworking of Jesus' teaching and are just as inspired as Jesus' own words.

I know your logical reply would be "But Men define the scripture- they've evicted and included multiple texts at various times throughout history."

When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the 1500s A.D.

However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of Biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God's Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God's Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).


There is no evidence
You seek evidence because you refuse to have faith.
You seek proof because you don't want to have faith.
You seek logic because you think the rules of this world will apply after death.

But without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

"According to your faith will it be done to you" (Matthew 9:29).

"He said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has healed you'" (Mark 5:34).

"Your faith has healed you" (Mark 10:52).

"'Have faith in God', Jesus answered" (Mark 11:22).

"Jesus said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace'" (Luke 7:50).

You expect to find God without faith, but I tell you that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

"And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith" (Matthew 13:58).

"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; He rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen Him after He had risen" (Mark 16:14).

And finally, to the people who say something like

God is evil for putting mankind in situations which he knows will end in them doing things he doesn't want them to do, and then get all pissy about it.
Would you rather be a mindless robot who had no other choice but to obey God?

God doesn't want robots who are programmed to obey Him, because that's not love.

I repeat. Love is God's objective. He is love (1 John 4:8).

Without giving us a choice, there is no love.

It is not God's fault.

[Justified]

So many of the atheist posts are making me shake my head, and I'm barely religious at all.

Instead of typing something out and probably offending somebody, I'll just post a link.
10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html)

The least an atheist can do, is not slam on religion without doing a little bit of research first.
Like saying how religion is bad because the Christians at school are shoving the Bible in people's faces.
Yet it is not taught to force religion on to others. You have a problem with a jerk, not with religion. (Point 8 on that article)

[Virtue]

Yet it is not taught to force religion on to others.
I'm tired of "shutting up". It has yielded no results. You are all sinning just as much as (if not more than) before, and I for one refuse to sit here and allow you to do it without at least explaining why it is wrong.

It is the least I can do for God...After all, He did create me, put up with my sinfulness, love me, die for me, and guarantee me everlasting life.

I think the least I can do is spread His message to others.

[Makisushi]

Lots of tl;dr's here lol

My view is kinda complicated since its like a mix of logic and religion... I'm Catholic but my belief is more of the Intelligent Design concept (wiki it)

I believe in God because I don't think that the Earth is habitable and life exists just because the universe rolled a dice and mostly everything happened "by chance" like what science says... Like Earth's optimal distance from the Sun, the functions of the Human brain and stuff like that...

I also don't believe in evolution and natural selection because if it was true, why are there still creatures inferior to Humans? Example.. If we are so great that we evolved from apes and that we were selected to evolve, why are there still monkeys? why didn't THEY evolve lol...

I dislike people forcing religion on others though... Bible teaches us to respect other people's beliefs...

There's also this thing about "Worship me or else" thing going on with atheists XD Who the crap spread that? Extremists religious probably... Us with religion aren't actually forced to worship, sing, bow, kneel or stuff like that. We do it because we want to... Its kinda more like "Your evil actions will have consequences. Don't tell me I didn't warn you. Be good and you'll be alright, even without all the rituals" :XD:

Rapists, kidnappers and the like exist because God is not the only one with power. There's this dude in hell who opposes God and influences people's lives pretty much the way God does. But its not those mystical "Bend to my will, be evil" kinda things... You are just presented with options, lots of them.. Not just yes or no.. (I still wonder though, why aren't all people who do not believe in hell become rapists, killers, thugs and evil doers. If God doesn't exist, then satan doesn't exist either, then hell is non existent. What is there to be afraid of? Cops? Shoot them down, stab them, hang them with their own intestines :thumb:)

I've also encountered this question regarding God... If God created the world, where did He come from? Who created him?
umm.. If the universe came from the BigBang where a chunk of mass exploded, where the heck did that ball of matter come from @_@

Also, a message to anyone who says they hate God and does not believe in Him.. You're funny. How can you hate something you do not believe exists? :what:

Some people do not believe in God nor miracles because they haven't seen Him nor his work right before their eyes.... I believe because I have faith.. What is faith? It is the substance if things hoped for.. It is the evidence of things not seen :bye:

EDIT: I forgot to add my view of the Bible. I don't think the bible is perfect in its current form. Maybe it was when it was first written with Divine Inspiration but things get lost in the translation and I believe that a lot of things in the bible are symbolical. Like the seven "days" in which the world was created. The word "day" in old, and sometimes in modern, english could mean any point in time. Could be literal day, could be a set of thousands of year.. could be millions. It could even coincide with the scientific chronological order of things if calculated properly... Some of them could also be literal, like Jonah seeing the bottom of the ocean and describing it as a vast land with a lot of valleys and mountains and deep canyons. Pretty close to what it really is if you think about it. How did he know that millions of years before SONAR or submarines? hmmm..

tl;dr?
My belief: Religion and Science are NOT two different stories. Their just two different books telling the same story from different points of view.

[Phunkie]

I like the people, not the religion. But I also don't like the crazy religious people.

8D

I accept religious beliefs. Just don't try to shove it down my throat.

Plus, many nations have been founded upon religious beliefs and as I've said, some of those beliefs are worth keeping. Some of them are quite beautiful.

But not all of them.

[Osayidan]

Before my post:
I haven't read every word of every post, but things look decent so far. Keep things civilized and it won't get closed. By all means rip each others opinions to shreds, but be respectful of the people giving said opinions.
-------------------

Here's a brief summary of what I think about religion.

1) I know that the religions of today didn't just pop out of nowhere, because some mighty being said so. If you examine the history of religion based on archeological finds, you notice that religion gradually developed from more primitive rituals/worshiping. If you compare most religions they all have similar origins (excluding wacky new age stuff that thinks aliens are gods and such things that date only recently). Most of it can be traced back to people asking unanswerable questions, such as why we are here, and what happens when we die. We have no real answers and probably never will, so religion fills in the gap.

2) I know that there are many different religions in the world, few of which seem to agree with each other on anything except the fact that there is a deity, and even then some religions can't agree on the number of deities. To make this even worst, some religions dispute within themselves and split off to form different versions.

3) Religion is based on the assumption that we are alone in the universe. While this assumption seems more solid than assuming we are not, I still think this causes a problem. (see: drake's equation - used to estimate possible civilizations in the universe). What if some day we come to realize humans are not the only civilized life in the universe? What will happen to religion? If god created man in his image, then everything just exploded in our faces. But that isn't the only issue, what will their religious views be? Will they agree or conflict with our religions? If so which ones?

4) Religion does not equal spirituality.

5) Religion in general all seems to have one good point: it teaches us to live in peace with each other and ourselves. Problem: This only seems to apply to members of your own religion (these days not so much, but in our distant past religion caused wars. some parts of the world are still quite scary against people not of their religion). One can say that those wars and other problems were caused by people in positions of power making negative use of religion to gain followers, but that's just a flaw of religion, people blindly agreeing to too many things. Those who do not question what they are raised to believe in are the core of the problem. If after much questioning the answers you find lead you to believe in a god or gods then go for it. Do not accept it simply because others say it is so.


I was raised christian, did christian-y things in school with my christian classmates. Did my communion and all that stuff. Then I started to question things. No one gave me reasonable answers. So I grew up, got out of elementary school, entered highschool as an athiest and never touched religion again. As I got older I started to ask more questions, now with access to a half decent library, and later the internet, I did my own research.

I do not identify as atheist anymore. Agnostic comes closer to it.
I do not deny the possibility that there may be a creator or creators. I do not 'believe' in the big bang as the start of all existence, however I also don't believe some guy got bored one day and decided to snap his fingers and create all that exists.

What I believe is that no one has a damned clue what's going on and we can spend a million lifetimes trying to figure it out and we probably won't. Everyone needs to question the universe on their own, get their own answers based on information they can gather, and form their own ideas.

Believing some god(s) just because others say they exist is ridiculous. By this logic anyone can go start up a religion, and as long as they make it interesting enough to get many followers, it works out, and one day may get as big as the major religions of today. Maybe in 2000 years half the world will be worshiping some guy they found a newspaper article about who sacrificed his life to save a baby about to be run over by a car back in 1956 (random date).

The important thing is to respect yourself, those around you, and to live well. Spirituality is the ability to unify those principles and apply it without prejudice in every day life. That's what I believe in.

I don't need a mighty being to tell me to live well. In fact I would go so far as to say that religion is the commercialization of spirituality, or politics with the mask of spirituality.

[Virtue]

In fact I would go so far as to say that religion is the commercialization of spirituality, or politics with the mask of spirituality.That's why Christ expects a relationship, not just a religion.

Christianity is not about "following rules"...It's about loving Jesus and forming a true and real relationship with Him.

[Cannibal]

Wrong.

You ask what authority that the Old Testament relies upon.

The authority of Divine Inspiration.

You may ask yourself "Are they the unenumerated teachings of Jesus or just messages from the Holy Spirit passed on to the disciples?"
The latter would be a much better definition.

To concentrate on certain parts of the Bible to the exclusion of others is unbalanced and dangerous. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16).

The Epistles, for example, were written to instruct us on the practical outworking of Jesus' teaching and are just as inspired as Jesus' own words.

I know your logical reply would be "But Men define the scripture- they've evicted and included multiple texts at various times throughout history."

When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the 1500s A.D.

However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of Biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God's Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God's Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).


You seek evidence because you refuse to have faith.
You seek proof because you don't want to have faith.
You seek logic because you think the rules of this world will apply after death.

But without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

"According to your faith will it be done to you" (Matthew 9:29).

"He said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has healed you'" (Mark 5:34).

"Your faith has healed you" (Mark 10:52).

"'Have faith in God', Jesus answered" (Mark 11:22).

"Jesus said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace'" (Luke 7:50).

You expect to find God without faith, but I tell you that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

"And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith" (Matthew 13:58).

"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; He rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen Him after He had risen" (Mark 16:14).

And finally, to the people who say something like

Would you rather be a mindless robot who had no other choice but to obey God?

God doesn't want robots who are programmed to obey Him, because that's not love.

I repeat. Love is God's objective. He is love (1 John 4:8).

Without giving us a choice, there is no love.

It is not God's fault.

I never said it was tampered with, or changed, or anything like that. I said it was written by man, was it not? Regardless of whether or not "God" said what should be there, it was man who set it in stone, huh?

[Hazeri]

Homo est Deus

Man is insecure, he needs to believe there's a great power out there that looks after him and gives him strenght, thus, he created God.
God exists, he/she is real for everyone who believes in It. There isn't an absolute God, there's as many gods as there are believers, every man and woman is their own God.

As for religion, I can't honestly say anything nice about any out there. Men have done so many horrible things in the name of God and religion, and there's still many science developments being halted or delayed because they are considered sacrilege by the church. Men really need to stop considering religion an authority if we want, as species, to evolve.

That's just my point of view.

[Virtue]

I never said it was tampered with, or changed, or anything like that. I said it was written by man, was it not? Regardless of whether or not "God" said what should be there, it was man who set it in stone, huh?
Yes, man wrote it down of course.

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

[Cannibal]

I understand what you're getting at. But one day I could just be delusional and think I'm feeling/seeing/hearing something tell me what to write down and teach, and I do it.

Understand where I'm coming from?

[Virtue]

I understand what you're getting at. But one day I could just be delusional and think I'm feeling/seeing/hearing something tell me what to write down and teach, and I do it.

Understand where I'm coming from?
Are you saying all these men were delusional, thinking they're feeling/seeing/hearing something and writing it down with such unity of scripture?

The Bible, which was written by approximately 40 human authors over a period of approximately 1600 years.

These men were quite diverse:
- Moses, a political leader
- Joshua, a military leader
- David, a shepherd
- Solomon, a king
- Amos, a herdsman and fruit picker
- Daniel, a prime minister
- Matthew, a tax collector
- Luke, a medical doctor
- Paul, a rabbi
- Peter, a fisherman; among others.

The Bible was also written under a variety of circumstances. It was written on 3 different continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Yet, the great themes of Scripture are maintained in all the writing. The Bible does not contradict itself. There is no way, apart from God the Holy Spirit supervising the writing of the Bible, that this could have been accomplished.

[Hiccup]

Yes, man wrote it down of course.

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21).
If it's Gods words given to man to write down how come he chose just Man and not Woman?

[Time]

Since I just skimmed through these 10 pages I guess I will post my view on religion and god. oh btw, this is incredibly vague..

In my opinion, religion and god are perfectly fine if thats what floats your boat, but its also fine to not believe. I personally think that god is being phased out in todays society, due to the fact that things are not so, for lack of a better term, mystical, today we have more advanced sciences, that can explain things that in the past were unexplainable, but still there are mystery's, so if god is your answer to how the universe was created, its your opinion and im fine with that. Also, I understand some benefits of being religious, although I personally am not, I can see how having morals and something to believe in could be helpful. I think that in the end all that matters is what helps you sleep at night, you can believe whatever you wish.

-Im happy with the maturity in this thread thus far, keep it up everybody! :thumb:

[Criticalxhit]

I really can't be bothered to argue with all of the views that contradict my beliefs, because I doubt very much it will change anyone else's opinion, so instead I'll quote the things I found most effective :P


So many of the atheist posts are making me shake my head, and I'm barely religious at all.

Instead of typing something out and probably offending somebody, I'll just post a link.
10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html)

The least an atheist can do, is not slam on religion without doing a little bit of research first.
Like saying how religion is bad because the Christians at school are shoving the Bible in people's faces.
Yet it is not taught to force religion on to others. You have a problem with a jerk, not with religion. (Point 8 on that article)


I'm tired of "shutting up". It has yielded no results. You are all sinning just as much as (if not more than) before, and I for one refuse to sit here and allow you to do it without at least explaining why it is wrong.

It is the least I can do for God...After all, He did create me, put up with my sinfulness, love me, die for me, and guarantee me everlasting life.

I think the least I can do is spread His message to others.

If I was going to reply to anything, I would say nearly the exact same thing as Justified did, combined with what Sin said. I looked at the link posted, and after reading most of it, I can say I agreed with nearly everything said. I suggest everyone look at that article, since it's based from an unbiased point of view.

It hasn't been super hostile as of yet, but since no conclusion can be reached the thread will simply spin on to infinity and beyond until fighting does break out. In the meantime nothing is learned and little if anything is gained.

I suppose I don't do any good saying this here though.

^Very true. Like I said, no one is going to change their opinions from what I've seen. Even Saani, who said...
"Please, prove to me that your God exists, give me evidence, and I'll change everything I believe."...doesn't seem in any position to change her mind.

That's all I have to say :P

[EndlessDreams]

Are you saying all these men were delusional, thinking they're feeling/seeing/hearing something and writing it down with such unity of scripture?

The Bible, which was written by approximately 40 human authors over a period of approximately 1600 years.

These men were quite diverse:
- Moses, a political leader
- Joshua, a military leader
- David, a shepherd
- Solomon, a king
- Amos, a herdsman and fruit picker
- Daniel, a prime minister
- Matthew, a tax collector
- Luke, a medical doctor
- Paul, a rabbi
- Peter, a fisherman; among others.

The Bible was also written under a variety of circumstances. It was written on 3 different continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Yet, the great themes of Scripture are maintained in all the writing. The Bible does not contradict itself. There is no way, apart from God the Holy Spirit supervising the writing of the Bible, that this could have been accomplished.

Can't a small group of man got together, and made up all the storylines from past religions? They could have inspired by the great stories handed by other religions at that time, and decided to use it for their own.

The part of divine inspiration on a religious book isn't exactly original. Most religious book does this, and claim it was divinely inspired.

As for the contractions part, it is based on your own interpretation. The bible is open to many interpretations, you can find such explanations here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_inte.htm), without the extreme bias from either side.

(Read it as God's Word, Folklore, Midrash, and/or Historical Document)

[Zack]

Oh boy this is gonna be trouble.

I do not believe in God, or a higher power. I think that evolution (is proven) is natural and putting God up on a pedestal is just an explanation for the unknown. The Bible talks about all these morals but does anybody really follow them? No. I could also bring up corruption and the crusades against the church's enemies and also forcing other countries into their religion through missionaries. Yeah.... no thanks. I've been to church maybe 3 times, and I found it extremely boring and they try and milk your money so bad!! The priest didn't even make sense and I zoned out after 5 seconds mostly cause I had no idea what he was talking about.

Evaluation is not proven. They are very close but they have not proven it yet.

[Virtue]

If it's Gods words given to man to write down how come he chose just Man and not Woman?God did not choose specific people. God chose people, in general. It might be a coincidence that they were all men, or it may be part of His divine plan. The Scriptures do not explain this, so anything we throw out there is pure speculation. It is, however, known that in older Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew versions it probably said something more inclusive. Plus (and this supports the former) in old and middle English, the word "man" referred to any person and not specifically males. Following this it's been speculated that Ruth was written by a woman.

As for myself, I'm going to bed now. I'm too tired to reply to you now, EndlessDreams. I'll do so tomorrow I guess.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF THIS WORLD rather than on Christ" (Colossians 2:8).

[EndlessDreams]

Evaluation is not proven. They are very close but they have not proven it yet.

Nothing in science is proven. Never then, and never in the future. The whole concept of science is not to prove anything. This is because science is based on empirical evidence, and then theories/models are built to try to explain such empirical evidence. Then those theories/models are tested time and time again until someone comes up with a better one.

Your senses can be wrong. Two people can interpret the same thing differently. Just because the Sky is Blue to you doesn't mean it is actually blue. We will never know the real color of the sky.

Evolution is one of the strongest scientific theories scientist has come up until today. It has withstand more than 150 years of testing. So much branches of science confirm the evolutionary theory. Maybe some day in the future, someone will come up with a better theory, and will win multiple Nobel Prizes this way.

Religion is not based on empirical evidence. It cannot be tested in any way. It can't be sensed in any way. You cannot prove a negative (you can't even show evidence for it), that is why religion is still is very convincing to people who cannot recognize this.

Also, religion is not the same as morality. Some people's morality can come from religion, but not everyone's morality comes from religion.

Although, it is because of science, that you are reading this post right now in probably in a healthy state of being instead of dying to a number of possible infectious disease that are preventable today.

[Zephyri]

Can't a small group of man got together, and made up all the storylines from past religions? They could have inspired by the great stories handed by other religions at that time, and decided to use it for their own.

The part of divine inspiration on a religious book isn't exactly original. Most religious book does this, and claim it was divinely inspired.

As for the contractions part, it is based on your own interpretation. The bible is open to many interpretations, you can find such explanations here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_inte.htm), without the extreme bias from either side.

(Read it as God's Word, Folklore, Midrash, and/or Historical Document)

The Bible: Why Some Ancient Texts Were Excluded (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Bible/outside.stm)

This is a short and good read related to the topic. I'm going to keep my own opinions out of it as someone else has pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as my own thoughts, but I will say, please continue to keep things civil and take nothing personally.

[Juno]

If it's Gods words given to man to write down how come he chose just Man and not Woman?

Good luck finding a woman at the time that was literate. That's not to say it's totally male-dominated, the book of Ruth is a good example and the accounts of Esther, Deborah, Rahab and many others speak to that.


Evaluation is not proven. They are very close but they have not proven it yet.

Eh, micro is pretty much proven, macro not so much. There's a lot of details that aren't taught in schools that you should look up before debating on the subject but as a general statement that sort of holds true.


As for the contractions part, it is based on your own interpretation. The bible is open to many interpretations, you can find such explanations here, without the extreme bias from either side.


I remember that site, people like to link to it a lot. One has only to look at the sources to wonder how objective they are and a general lack of supporting evidence makes it perhaps a good place to start but in need of some finishing. I have at least one counter source in mind but it's in book form and I don't remember the numbers exactly so I can't quote them until I find it. I'll suffice to say that the bible as we know it has been corroborated more than other trusted historical documents until I can actually find the book.


Although, it is because of science, that you are reading this post right now in probably in a healthy state of being instead of dying to a number of possible infectious disease that are preventable today.

Religion is not an enemy of science. The video you posted mentioned how many partake of both. I don't think it's fair to take his rather religiously ambiguous statement and hint that he holds something against science.

[Justified]

If it's Gods words given to man to write down how come he chose just Man and not Woman?

Because who would ever listen to a woman?

...uh, at that time.
>>
<<



Although, it is because of science, that you are reading this post right now in probably in a healthy state of being instead of dying to a number of possible infectious disease that are preventable today.
Point 6.

"So please, please, please, when we get into these atheist vs. Christian arguments, can the atheists stop acting like Christians want to abolish all science and live in grass huts? Just because some Christians reject the science on evolution, doesn't mean they reject all science.

I mean, give me a break. America has been full of Christians since the day we invaded it, and has been a scientific and technological freaking superpower. So please stop waving your arms and warning that if Christians get their way, we'll all be sacrificing virgins on altars and replacing surgeons with priests."



As for religion, I can't honestly say anything nice about any out there. Men have done so many horrible things in the name of God and religion, and there's still many science developments being halted or delayed because they are considered sacrilege by the church. Men really need to stop considering religion an authority if we want, as species, to evolve.
Point 1

"All I need from you is agreement that it's entirely possible for either an atheist or theist world to devolve into a screaming murder festival. The religious leader sends his people into battle because he thinks God commanded it, the Stalins and Maos of the world do the same because they see their people as nothing more than meaty fuel to be ground up to feed the machinery of The State. In both cases, the people are equally dead.

Yeah, yeah, I know the Christians are saying that the guy who fights an unjust or needless war is violating God's law, and thus isn't a good Christian. Meanwhile, the atheists are saying that Stalin was merely bloodthirsty, separate and apart from his disbelief in a higher power. Both believe, then, that it is a corruption of their belief system that allows unjust slaughter to happen.

But for this project, All we need to agree on is this: it happens in both cases. And if the opposing belief system vanished tomorrow, war and bloodshed and terror would still take place."


/Bumps the link for people who ignored it.

10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html)



Your senses can be wrong. Two people can interpret the same thing differently. Just because the Sky is Blue to you doesn't mean it is actually blue. We will never know the real color of the sky.

Oho, a philosophy statement, yummy.

According to Kant, there are things that we cannot know because we cannot perceive them. We have no empirical evidence for them, and we cannot argue "das ding an sich" (If we don't expect something to be true, like the sky being red, then we can't scientifically research it without some kind of bias). Like many philosophers of and before his time, Kant attributes many things and (universal and absolute) truths to Nature/God (most are monist and believe that God and Nature are the same thing, in one way or another).

According to Hegel, truth is subjective. Everything that we humans know is truth, because truth belongs to humans. Saying "we don't know if the sky is blue" is a moot statement because it is blue to us. Truth also is not absolute, as it changes with time and place. The dialectic method in which debate leads to compromise, which leads to advancement is a model Hegel developed to illustrate how "truth" changes over time.

Wait... is this on topic?

[Shanghai]

If it's Gods words given to man to write down how come he chose just Man and not Woman?

Unrelated, but God did pick Mary the virgin, a woman, to bear Jesus and was only merely assisted by Joseph so she wouldn't be killed or something because it was wrong at that time to be a widow and be pregnant at the time. :P

[Juno]

Wait... is this on topic?

There's not really a topic here, the prompt was "What are your views on religion, and more importantly, "God"?" so just about anything and everything is fair game.

[Moppy]

I believe in God, but I have a distase for him.

O.o

My beliefs are weird to explain but it's something along the lines of God creating our world for his entertainment then ignoring us as he got bored...

So bascially, God is like a toddler with a new toy.

[EndlessDreams]

Oho, a philosophy statement, yummy.

According to Kant, there are things that we cannot know because we cannot perceive them. We have no empirical evidence for them, and we cannot argue "das ding an sich" (If we don't expect something to be true, like the sky being red, then we can't scientifically research it without some kind of bias). Like many philosophers of and before his time, Kant attributes many things and (universal and absolute) truths to Nature/God (most are monist and believe that God and Nature are the same thing, in one way or another).

According to Hegel, truth is subjective. Everything that we humans know is truth, because truth belongs to humans. Saying "we don't know if the sky is blue" is a moot statement because it is blue to us. Truth also is not absolute, as it changes with time and place. The dialectic method in which debate leads to compromise, which leads to advancement is a model Hegel developed to illustrate how "truth" changes over time.

Wait... is this on topic?

The article itself is a bit biased. It has underlining assumption that an atheist only believes in rationalism.

An atheist, by definition, lacks the belief in all deities. That is all. It says nothing else about their philosophy or morals.

The atheist can even be irrational or rational. It won't change the fact that person is an atheist if that person lacks the belief in all deities.

Not to mention, it makes the assumption that you need religion for there to be morals, which is completely wrong.

While not all Christians (or insert religious people) try to stab at science whenever they get the chance, the ones in power and voiced their position loud enough do. The quiet ones sitting on the fence supports does absolutely nothing to the argument until something happens to them. Practically everyone in the course of history that is taught in history classes don't want to sit in the fence and accept the world as it is. They all wanted to go out and make the change, whether it is good or bad.

Stalin did it for what he thought was good for USSR. History doesn't seem to show he did it out of any religious or lack of religious motives. A better example would be find someone who is an atheist, and killed someone for the sake of atheism.

Yes, Terror, Bloodshed, and etc. will take place without religion. However, there will be one less reason for them to perform them. The world would be a much better place with one less reason for such stuff.

Truth is not absolute, and it changes? It wasn't the truth in the first place then.
Also, you excluded color-blind people.

Not to mention, you had to change my statement to make it true.
In addition, I don't think the sky is blue either.

[Bankai231]

My idea behind "if god exists" is that he created the laws which we are all bound to.

The laws of physics and chemistry that make up this world. Its perfect, mathematical, and fits in together... locks in.

But he hasn't done anything since. Or perhaps he's doing something else. But definitely not doing anything with the humans of planet earth, only one of the uncountable number of planets out there that hold life.

But believers of God should be quite aware that half the stuff written in any text about religion is a nonsense put in by what people thought at the time. And its because of this that recent science challenges so many things in the bible, and its because of this that the bible contradicts itself so often.

The bible is a fine piece of literature with some excellent suggestions on better living, but not much more. Too many people have died or made their lives less comfortable by trying to follow the exact teachings of the bible.

This. Exactly this actually.

[Justified]

The article itself is a bit biased. It has underlining assumption that an atheist only believes in rationalism.

An atheist, by definition, lacks the belief in all deities. That is all. It says nothing else about their philosophy or morals.

The atheist can even be irrational or rational. It won't change the fact that person is an atheist if that person lacks the belief in all deities.

Not to mention, it makes the assumption that you need religion for there to be morals, which is completely wrong.

It does no such thing. It only argues theism vs science because those are the main conflicting points, atheists often disbelieve in a deity because of their rationalism.
Why don't you believe in God? Can you give me an answer that does not involve rationalism/science? Because there is no proof, because it is unthinkable, etc, are all rationalist responses - even that video you posted was theism vs science, not theism vs atheism.
You can't really argue atheism without rationalism. In fact, pretty much all atheist rebuttals to the existence of a god are rationalistic.


Stalin did it for what he thought was good for USSR. History doesn't seem to show he did it out of any religious or lack of religious motives. A better example would be find someone who is an atheist, and killed someone for the sake of atheism.

Yes, Terror, Bloodshed, and etc. will take place without religion. However, there will be one less reason for them to perform them. The world would be a much better place with one less reason for such stuff.

Read the first paragraph again. Both the Crusades and Stalin did what they thought was best for their cause. The "corruption" (as said by the article) is when somebody does something extreme which does not necessarily reflect the actual cause - be it the betterment of a state or the betterment of a religion.
If you say "Religion is bad because people do terrible things for religion," then I could say "the USSR is bad because Stalin did terrible things for the USSR."
If you say "Without religion, we would have less terror and bloodshed and the world would be a better place," then I could say "Without atheism, we would have less terror and bloodshed and the world would be a better place."
The fact is, the conflict arises only because we have a disagreement between two sides. Obviously, if you take away one side then the conflict is gone. However, blaming one side for the problem gets you nowhere, because the converse is just as true.


Truth is not absolute, and it changes? It wasn't the truth in the first place then.
Also, you excluded color-blind people.

Not to mention, you had to change my statement to make it true.
In addition, I don't think the sky is blue either.

I reworded your statement, but I didn't change it.
Although "we will never know the real color of the sky," it doesn't matter what the real color is because we can understand it how it appears to us. Is that better?
Colorblindness is a deficiency and is not a good example. That's like saying we can't tell if there's sound in the world because a deaf person can't hear it (edit -> better example!)

Your definition of truth is different from Hegel's, and matches Kant. Perception of the world are influenced by the mind without our realizing. They may not properly reflect the sensations we receive before we process them, meaning we can't know anything.

Hegel says truth is subjective. Truth flows, it can be entirely true at one point in time, change, and be entirely true and different at another point in time. We can't know for sure that the sky is blue, but it is blue to us and most likely always will be.
Why bother saying the sky isn't really blue, when we - the only ones who will ever use this information - already perceive it as such? That's a moot argument. Two different schools of thought, both sound pretty valid to me.

[Taran]

Not all things can be prove by science and God cant be proven so i just reject all religions and only accept the fact that there is someone better than me, better than all of us that can be known as "God"

Things Science cant prove: Foreign Accent Syndrome that is "people who have suffered strokes or other injuries adopt a new accent."

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Ah, the good old religion debate.

It's simple:

- Man created god to explain the crap they can't explain during that time where science is lacking, or is unable to explain why the sun travels through the sky and stuffs like that.
- Man is a lazy creature. When miracles happen, they refuse to view them as miracles. Some people can roll dices and land on 6 all of the time, are you going to say that he's blessed by god? Well, at least people from like... 1600 would.
- God has been man's explanation for anything unexplainable from that day onwards.
- Same ideas come together to make a single god instead of multiple ones, or many multiple gods and deities.
- If you don't believe in whatever I've just typed, I'll kill you.
- srs. Because what I'm typing must be true even though I can't prove it!



IF there is a god, and like how Christians and whoever weird religions would say, god is equal and loves everyone the same, then why the hell only people who worships him goes to heaven?

See the irony?


I would quote from George Carlin:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o


NO CONTEST!

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky, who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do and if you do any of these ten things he has a special place full of fire, and smoke, and burning, and torture, and anguish where he would send you to live and suffer, and burn, and choke, and scream and cry forever and ever till the end of time.



But he loves you.



He loves you, he loves you and he needs MONEY!

[Justified]

IF there is a god, and like how Christians and whoever weird religions would say, god is equal and loves everyone the same, then why the hell only people who worships him goes to heaven?

See the irony?

(Not speaking from a religious viewpoint)

No, I don't see irony. What's ironic about it?

1. God loves everybody.
2. Those whom he doesn't love (because they break moral rules he has set) do not go to heaven.

Assume Human A loves everybody. He is a very loving person without an ounce of hate in him.
Assume Human B is the things that God does not approve of. A murderer, a liar, a glutton, whatever.
Would Human A want to spend all eternity with Human B? I would doubt it. Think along the lines of Ned Flanders and Homer Simpson.

(Again, not a religious standpoint, just pointing out that there's no "irony")

[Chillax]

To quote Les Miserables, "God is the selfhood of the infinite." I feel that religion tries to place a personality on the infinite, which they cannot explain, to make things easier to comprehend.

[Juno]

So basically, people are saying that god is a creation of mankind to explain things that science could not and to be used as leverage to get people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do.

In other words, it's impossible to both be a scientist and believe in god and all of your pastors are just in it for the money? No, that's called a generalization. The counter argument is that some people are just really screwed up in the head and actually believe what others have only lied about.

So in saying that anyone who believes in god is either a liar or mentally impaired. Great, I'm thinking this'll bud into a wonderful discussion.

---

What I'm asking for is just a little respect. Don't go making blanket statements saying that I'm copping out here or covering up there. If you want to know why I believe just ask. If you want to have this thread under the premise of hearing and understanding each others opinions it would help if you didn't fill in the blanks with mildly offensive generalizations.

Especially don't talk about this one person in this one place at this one time that said this and did that and it gave you a nasty feeling in your tummy. Chances are I lose more sleep over it than you do and I don't even know the guy. Every time someone mentions the crusades I want to kill a poodle. Whenever Westboro Baptist is brought up I search google for any sites selling tactical nukes. And each instance of someone trying to pass those off as typical Christian thoughts I wish hitmen weren't so bloody hard to contact.

It's no secret that plenty of people have used religion as a platform for power. That doesn't mean that it's purpose is such. It's true that plenty of people have used religion to try to justify their absurd views. Closer inspection usually reveals they're full of it.

It always amuses me when someone says the bible is totally inaccurate because they heard this guy say it on the internet and therefore it must be true. If you want to dance that dance I'm up for it, don't think you can just spew it out without anyone challenging the claim. I'm guessing most people who say it can't name any specific instances though they'll probably just google for something that's been dismissed ages ago. If you can do better than that don't hide it...but don't just say things like they're fact if you're not willing to substantiate it.

Well I'll be damned, is that a Christian complaining about people claiming things without being able to prove it? Ain't that ironic. Well I've got news for you and it's probably not the good kind. We're a lot smarter than you give us credit for and we're tired of being treated like idiots. We're pretty good at the whole respecting you thing and it's high time you demonstrated your prowess in the area. If that's how you feel that's fine, but don't imply that's the only possibility.



No, I'm not mad. Yes, I did have watery spaghetti for dinner. Yes, Simon Cowell is the only judge I trust. No, it's not ok if you disagree with that.

[Rime]

Since no one else has done it, I'd like to take a utilitarian approach to this topic. In a utilitarian sense, the belief in a "God" or "Gods" is generally a good thing. Though I myself am secretly atheist (lol closet atheist), Christianity has contributed significantly to the happiness of my family members. It's given them peace of mind when someone has passed away, and when times are rough, the belief that "God rewards those who help themselves" has kept them from giving up on many occasions (seriously, my family members are that devout). Who am I to openly deny them that?

Various studies agree that those who have accepted a religion are generally more happy than those who don't. This came straight out of my psychology textbook, but I can probably find some sources that agree

[Criticalxhit]

(Not speaking from a religious viewpoint)

No, I don't see irony. What's ironic about it?

1. God loves everybody.
2. Those whom he doesn't love (because they break moral rules he has set) do not go to heaven.

Assume Human A loves everybody. He is a very loving person without an ounce of hate in him.
Assume Human B is the things that God does not approve of. A murderer, a liar, a glutton, whatever.
Would Human A want to spend all eternity with Human B? I would doubt it. Think along the lines of Ned Flanders and Homer Simpson.

(Again, not a religious standpoint, just pointing out that there's no "irony")

Just to correct you there, God loves everybody unconditionally, even if they're atheist. It's those that don't accept him that don't go to heaven. On a technical note, "he" should be capitalized :P

@Juno: exactly. If they'd read that article that Justified posted, a lot of those assumptions wouldn't have been made. And it's from a neutral point of view, so it's not a hidden Bible teaching or anything

[Justified]

Just to correct you there, God loves everybody unconditionally, even if they're atheist. It's those that don't accept him that don't go to heaven. On a technical note, "he" should be capitalized :P

:!!:
I should really reread what I write, that's not at all what I was thinking.

The point was that, like Ned Flanders, you can love somebody but not want to be around them. Therefore, it is not "ironic" that not everybody goes to heaven.

[Kazuni]

Bah. What kills me over the most with religion is the good/evil, heaven/hell.

The whole system of heaven/hell, to me, isn't fair.

Life isn't fair I know I know, but if people were worshiping and loving someone even though they couldn't see him, you'd think the system would be a little more equal.

[emomutt]

christian > athiest > catholic > satanist > Julianism
long story short about julianism is people started worshiping me and i ended up being forced to make my own church

[Kazuni]

christian > athiest > catholic > satanist > Julianism
long story short about julianism is people started worshiping me and i ended up being forced to make my own church

I should hope that's sarcasm.

[Rime]

I should hope that's sarcasm.
Sarcasm implies a sense of humor. Is it possible for emos be have a sense of humor?

[Kazuni]

Sarcasm implies a sense of humor. Is it possible for emos be have a sense of humor?

Fine. I should hope that sentence is not serious.

[Phunkie]

christian > athiest > catholic > satanist > Julianism
long story short about julianism is people started worshiping me and i ended up being forced to make my own church

lolwut

[Kaldo]

According to my latin teacher (he's like all-knowing... supposedly :3) Theologians believe that those who are bad, they go to hell, those who are theists and are good go to heaven, and then theres limbo for those who are good their whole lives, but are atheist, or babies who die unbaptised (this is like, medieval, not talking about now lol). These theologians claim that god's probably merciful, so he just sends them to heaven anyways. Soooo... Imma just carry on be a good atheist :lol:

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

(Not speaking from a religious viewpoint)

No, I don't see irony. What's ironic about it?

1. God loves everybody.
2. Those whom he doesn't love (because they break moral rules he has set) do not go to heaven.

Assume Human A loves everybody. He is a very loving person without an ounce of hate in him.
Assume Human B is the things that God does not approve of. A murderer, a liar, a glutton, whatever.
Would Human A want to spend all eternity with Human B? I would doubt it. Think along the lines of Ned Flanders and Homer Simpson.

(Again, not a religious standpoint, just pointing out that there's no "irony")

How does he loves EVERYBODY if there's always some people that he doesn't LOVE?


Check out the George Carlins video I've posted on page 12 in my reply.

[Virtue]

The part of divine inspiration on a religious book isn't exactly original. Most religious book does this, and claim it was divinely inspired.
Do they have the same unity of scripture like the Bible does? I think not.

Your senses can be wrong. Two people can interpret the same thing differently. Just because the Sky is Blue to you doesn't mean it is actually blue. We will never know the real color of the sky.
Eh, incorrect. Everyone sees the sky in the same colour, we just call that colour blue. Read up on Optics.

The Bible: Why Some Ancient Texts Were Excluded (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Bible/outside.stm)

This is a short and good read related to the topic. I'm going to keep my own opinions out of it as someone else has pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as my own thoughts, but I will say, please continue to keep things civil and take nothing personally.
Yes.

Also, New Testament scholar Norman Geisler writes, "The Gnostic writings were not written by the apostles, but by men in the second century (and later) pretending to use apostolic authority to advance their own teachings. Today we call this fraud and forgery."

I believe in God, but I have a distase for him.

O.o

My beliefs are weird to explain but it's something along the lines of God creating our world for his entertainment then ignoring us as he got bored...

So bascially, God is like a toddler with a new toy.
That has the name deism, Zeph.


christian > athiest > catholic > satanist > Julianism
long story short about julianism is people started worshiping me and i ended up being forced to make my own church
Ignorance. Not every Christian is Catholic, while every Catholic is Christian.

---

Not even going to bother replying to NewbieNub's post because that reeks of ignorance and generalisations. Come back when your view is less narrow and you grow up. I would grow exceedingly tired of his style of conversation that we would be having.

Also, about God's unconditional love. I will explain using an example.

If you hate God, scorn His Name and burn the Bible, destroy His worshipers, you would probably think He must love you, for that is what unconditional love is. It's a little different.

God is able to love and hate at the same time.

The difference between us and God in regard to loving and hating is vast. Even as Christians, we remain imperfect in our humanity and cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (in other words, without malice).

But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still be willing to lovingly forgive at the moment of that sinner's repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).

[Phunkie]

You know, the part I don't get about religion is how people say they know God.

How do you really know God?

Is reading the Bible the only the proof you need to know God?

'Cause to me, that wouldn't be God, that's a description of him. Nothing more, nothing less.

And then there's people who say they feel God.

How do you feel God?

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Do they have the same unity of scripture like the Bible does? I think not.

Eh, incorrect. Everyone sees the sky in the same colour, we just call that colour blue. Read up on Optics.

Yes.

Also, New Testament scholar Norman Geisler writes, "The Gnostic writings were not written by the apostles, but by men in the second century (and later) pretending to use apostolic authority to advance their own teachings. Today we call this fraud and forgery."

That has the name deism, Zeph.


Ignorance. Not every Christian is Catholic, while every Catholic is Christian.

---

Not even going to bother replying to NewbieNub's post because that reeks of ignorance and generalisations. Come back when your view is less narrow and you grow up. I would grow exceedingly tired of his style of conversation that we would be having.

Also, about God's unconditional love. I will explain using an example.

If you hate God, scorn His Name and burn the Bible, destroy His worshipers, you would probably think He must love you, for that is what unconditional love is. It's a little different.

God is able to love and hate at the same time.

The difference between us and God in regard to loving and hating is vast. Even as Christians, we remain imperfect in our humanity and cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (in other words, without malice).

But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still be willing to lovingly forgive at the moment of that sinner's repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).

Ignorant because you could not come up with a perfect counter to what George Carlin had once placed up on stage with people cheering him on, or ignorant because I do not share the same view as you?

See? This is why the topic on religion is always locked, because religious people just REFUSES to stare out of the box at one point of time.




I wouldn't say god didn't exist, I couldn't prove to the world that he doesn't exist. But how can you prove to me that god exists?

With miracles stated in the bible? I don't think so.



And if he's all almighty and powerful, why doesn't he just FIX EVERYTHING? He wants us to fix it instead?

You know what? You're making it sound as if god is a NEXON GM. He just doesn't care ANYTHING other than to hate and love people, perhaps some random mass banning (Deaths) when demanded.



Which comes to George Carlin's second point:

God is either ignorant, or he doesn't gives a damn about what happens here.


Hell, if he DOES give even the tiniest damn about what's happening on Earth, he would have fixed it AGES ago. We wouldn't have global warming, we wouldn't have wars, we wouldn't have people doing drugs, we wouldn't have ANYTHING that would cause us pain and harm.


You're obviously not OLD enough to realized how screwed up this world is. Just look about you. Seriously. This is definetly not the work of a superior being.

But, even so, I wouldn't say god doesn't exist. I would say it's more like if Earth is a MMORPG server, the game company just stopped providing services for it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM

Here you go, another video.

[Virtue]

Ignorant because you could not come up with a perfect counter to what George Carlin had once placed up on stage with people cheering him on, or ignorant because I do not share the same view as you?
I don't speak to children who come in a serious thread and try to be funny saying stuff like this:

- If you don't believe in whatever I've just typed, I'll kill you.
You lose all credibility saying things like this.


See? This is why the topic on religion is always locked, because religious people just REFUSES to stare out of the box at one point of time.
Irony to the max.


I wouldn't say god didn't exist, I couldn't prove to the world that he doesn't exist. But how can you prove to me that god exists?
Proof? Why would I need to prove or disprove that God exists? I love how you completely fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:18.

You call God ignorant and evil, when you yourself are evil.

Why is God evil? Because He exacted judgment on sinners who loved their sin and threatened to corrupt the chosen people of God?

"For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

"Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?" (Genesis 18:25).

[Phunkie]

No one answered my question. :(

But yeah, how do you know God exists? Why do you need to prove him to me? Because I am not sure that he is there.

Just like a little kid asks his parents if Santa Claus is real. He wants to believe, but nothing inclines him to believe, besides his imagination and his curiosity.


You know, when I woke up this morning, I felt fantastic and really optimistic about this bright day. It wasn't raining for once!

I could easily say that as soon as I woke up, I felt God. That God brought this beautiful day upon me so I could enjoy it.

Is feeling God a sort of optimism? A sort of reassurance that things are going to be okay?

Some people don't need God for that.

[Athde]

The think I don't like about relegion is that it makes people go... too far sometimes... Nm
My 2 Things about relegion...
1. I believe it was made to explain the unexplainable , that way people would have something to pair that weird occurnce with something other than just left to wonder.
2. I just plain dont trust relegion. A new relegion pops up every hundred years or so claiming that 'they' are right and the others are wrong. It just gets annoying.

Now if a celestial being appeared in front of me all of a sudden and proved that they were... Angelical, I wouldn't mind following a relegion that they told me too.

It just goes against what I stand for to believe in something that is unable to be proven.

[Phunkie]

Now if a celestial being appeared in front of me all of a sudden and proved that they were... Angelical, I wouldn't mind following a relegion that they told me too.

If God appeared in front of you right now, how would you know it's even God? Could very well be Satan.

If God is real, we don't know him.

Just because you read the Bible doesn't mean you can claim to know God.

The Bible was written by Man. It is (at best) one of the many possible descriptions of God and his rules.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

I don't speak to children who come in a serious thread and try to be funny saying stuff like this:

You lose all credibility saying things like this.

Far beyond your thinking plane, I've just shown you how most religions would act like.

What? You don't BELIEVE in MY GOD? I'll kill you for that.



Irony to the max.

Not quite, you're just proving my point per quote you use off me.



Proof? Why would I need to prove or disprove that God exists? I love how you completely fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:18.

You call God ignorant and evil, when you yourself are evil.

Why is God evil? Because He exacted judgment on sinners who loved their sin and threatened to corrupt the chosen people of God?

"For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

"Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?" (Genesis 18:25).

Alright, so I'm evil for calling god evil?
No, I din't say he's evil, I said he didn't GIVE A DAMN about what's happening on Earth. Unless of course, you're implying that NEXON is evil, then sure, I won't mind you assuming that I'm calling god EVIL.

So, calling god evil is wrong, what about the devil?

Perhaps, other people? Calling other people evil would deem you as politically correct? Is Osama bin Laden evil? Is George Bush a bad president? Are the murders of all "evil" people technically correct to you?

Oh, and don't get me started on the crusades.

And all the people your god has told your religion to kill because god says so.

So, god only wants evil people to be dead? Which is where I would ask you, what is evil. Is evil, someone who calls YOUR god evil? Or is evil something else? Make up your mind.



Thy shall not kill someone unless he or she doesn't believes in the same invisible man as I do, so totally true.



Using Umineko as an example, one can't prove to me that god exist unless of course, you have ample proof that he DOES exist. It's pretty much the same logic as a black box with something in it. I could claim that there's a cat in it, but you'll never know if it's true until I open the box.

On the other hand, if you can show me that god exists, applying the logic of the devil's proof, I can't deny that god doesn't exist. But if you can't prove to me that god exists, I can use all means to deny his existance since you can't prove anything without proof.

One can't see god without love?

I guess that's true.



Just to keep whatever I've typed ever since the start, short.

I'm not telling you NOT to believe in your god. To me, believing in something is your choice. Religion does have its own good points like teaching people not to do bad and stuffs, but don't you think that forcing someone else to believe in your own god is a little selfish?

Besides, I'm barely even trying to go aggressive here and you're already in an overly protective, paranoid mode. If there's a troll here (I know someone on my MSN who would LOVE to troll the hell out of you on the religion topic because he's really knowledgable in that) this would be his or her field day, seriously.

[Makisushi]

Lots of talk here about what evil is and that God doesn't care that's why there is evil. Here's a nice story as a rebuttal :3 Sorry if its a bit long, its a nice read~

A science professor began his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain
the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy paused before
his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student said .

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grinned knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considered for a moment. "Here's
one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can
do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us
would if we could. But God doesn't." The student did not answer, so the professor
continued. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even
though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer
that one?"

The student remained silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor asked. He took a sip of water from a glass on
his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student faltered. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son... Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes"

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God
created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define
who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer.

"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they
exist in this world?"

The student squirmed on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student did not answer again, so the professor repeated his question. "Who created
them?"

There was still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer broke away to pace in front of the
classroom. The class was mesmerized. "Tell me," he continued onto another student.
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrayed him and cracked. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stopped pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and
observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever
had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says
your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replied. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeated. "And that is the problem science has with God.
There is no evidence, only faith."

At the back of the room another student stood quietly for a moment before asking a
question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies.. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turned to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly
became very quiet. The student began to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no
heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below
zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such
thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.
Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and
heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F)
is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe
the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units
because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of
it." Silence enveloped the room. A pen dropped somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer!

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have
no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the
meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would
be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor began to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good
semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with,
and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face could not hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain
how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that
there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the
concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even
explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less
fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant
of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite
of life, just the absence of it. Now tell me, professor.. Do you teach your students
that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course
I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor began to
shake his head, still smiling, as he realized where the argument was going. A very
good semester, indeed. "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?" The class
was in an uproar. The student remained silent until the commotion had subsided. "To
continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an
example of what I mean."

The student looked around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen
the professor's brain?" The classroom broke into laughter. "Is there anyone here who
has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt
the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that
you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain,
how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room was silent. The professor stared at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seemed like an eternity, the old man answered. "I guess you'll
have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the
student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday.
It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of
crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else
but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not
exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and
cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not
create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love
present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the
darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

[Virtue]

Far beyond your thinking plane, I've just shown you how most religions would act like.

What? You don't BELIEVE in MY GOD? I'll kill you for that.
You seem to be confusing my religion with the Islam.

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (Quran 9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (Quran 8:65)


Alright, so I'm evil for calling god evil?
No, I din't say he's evil, I said he didn't GIVE A DAMN about what's happening on Earth. Unless of course, you're implying that NEXON is evil, then sure, I won't mind you assuming that I'm calling god EVIL.

So, calling god evil is wrong, what about the devil?

Perhaps, other people? Calling other people evil would deem you as politically correct? Is Osama bin Laden evil? Is George Bush a bad president? Are the murders of all "evil" people technically correct to you?
I am sorry, my friend, for calling you evil.

I am not harming you. I am helping you.

You are already without excuse. The glory of God is clearly seen through His creation, and God is the perfect Judge.

That is why it is NOT for me to judge people...It is not my place to say who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven....

We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).


Oh, and don't get me started on the crusades.
You see, the Bible tells us that "There is a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace." (Ecclesiastes 3:8)

War is not the same as hatred.

Now I want to be the first to say that some of the actions the Crusaders took in the Middle East were OBVIOUSLY sinful.

But Romans 3:23 says that all men have sinned.

And it is not the travesties that define the Crusades...but instead it is the morals and reasons behind them that define them.

2/3 of the Christian world had been conquered...What if 2/3 of the States in the United States were conquered by Canada, and we decided NOT to re-invade?

Would the US be right in its decision?

I would imagine not.


And all the people your god has told your religion to kill because god says so.
Again, you are confusing my religion with the Islam.


So, god only wants evil people to be dead? Which is where I would ask you, what is evil. Is evil, someone who calls YOUR god evil? Or is evil something else? Make up your mind.
My God doesn't want anyone dead. They have sinned. They must die.


Using Umineko as an example, one can't prove to me that god exist unless of course, you have ample proof that he DOES exist. It's pretty much the same logic as a black box with something in it. I could claim that there's a cat in it, but you'll never know if it's true until I open the box.

On the other hand, if you can show me that god exists, applying the logic of the devil's proof, I can't deny that god doesn't exist. But if you can't prove to me that god exists, I can use all means to deny his existance since you can't prove anything without proof.

One can't see god without love?

I guess that's true.
Again, what is with your need for proof? I am growing exceedingly tired of you fulfilling 1 Corinthians 1:18 and making me repeat myself.

You don't need love to see God, you need FAITH.

HE THAT HAS AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR. JESUS STANDS KNOCKING AT THE DOOR TO YOUR HEART, WAITING FOR YOU TO HEAR HIM AND INVITE HIM IN.

HE THAT HAS AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR.

It seems you have lit your beacon, NewbieNub, calm down.

[Juno]

How does he loves EVERYBODY if there's always some people that he doesn't LOVE?


Check out the George Carlins video I've posted on page 12 in my reply.

It depends on what god you're talking about. If we're to assume Christianity then there are not some people that he doesn't love. Also, if George Carlin is your religious source for learning it might do you good to take a less aggressive approach to your questions. The guy is a comedian, he's not concerned about getting it right so much as making it funny.



Also, about God's unconditional love. I will explain using an example.

If you hate God, scorn His Name and burn the Bible, destroy His worshipers, you would probably think He must love you, for that is what unconditional love is. It's a little different.

God is able to love and hate at the same time.

The difference between us and God in regard to loving and hating is vast. Even as Christians, we remain imperfect in our humanity and cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (in other words, without malice).

But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still be willing to lovingly forgive at the moment of that sinner's repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).

Malachi 1:3, while often translated as hate, is not akin to the emotion. A more accurate description would be rejection. Esau and Jacob's names are being used to refer to their respective descendants. Jacob's offspring were chosen to be God's special people the Israelites. Esau's were not. For more info check out this page. (http://www.gotquestions.org/jacob-esau-love-hate.html)

Revelation 2:6 clearly refers to hating the practices of a certain group of people, the Nicolaitans. This is not the same as hating the group of people themselves. This is generally how God handles the situation and how we're instructed to handle it. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

1 Peter 3:9 says "Do not repay evil with evil or insult for insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing." niv

2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." niv

Both passages in Peter suggest that God isn't hating anyone.


You know, the part I don't get about religion is how people say they know God.

How do you really know God?

Is reading the Bible the only the proof you need to know God?

'Cause to me, that wouldn't be God, that's a description of him. Nothing more, nothing less.

And then there's people who say they feel God.

How do you feel God?

No, reading the bible is not the only proof you have. Many who know him don't even have a bible written in a language they can read. It helps though because it's a description as you said which assists in differentiating between our own whims and what he wants. It's not really a complex thing, it sort of comes hand in hand with belief...but it's nigh impossible to describe clearly or it seems so atm. I'll get back to you if I find some more clever way to put it.


And if he's all almighty and powerful, why doesn't he just FIX EVERYTHING? He wants us to fix it instead?

You know what? You're making it sound as if god is a NEXON GM. He just doesn't care ANYTHING other than to hate and love people, perhaps some random mass banning (Deaths) when demanded.



Which comes to George Carlin's second point:

God is either ignorant, or he doesn't gives a damn about what happens here.

You seem to be under the impression that God is some divine babysitter that follows us around scooping up all of our messes. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Had you actually learned about his character you'd be less confused than from just watching George Carlin. Nevertheless, I shall try to give you a reliable source.

The easy answer would be "free will" and put simply that is the case. To expand a little, God created us with the ability to choose to do w/e we wanted though every choice does have a consequence. He's generally not going to step in unless we ask him to and even then his plans aren't always exactly what we want. For example, if Sarah wants ice cream before bed every night and gets it she's going to run into some problems. Somewhere between the not being able to sleep and the tooth decay she'll realize that getting what she wanted there wasn't in her best interests. This is summed up in Jeremiah 29:11 which says "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Note it doesn't say plans which make life smooth sailing and all fun times.


You know, when I woke up this morning, I felt fantastic and really optimistic about this bright day. It wasn't raining for once!

I could easily say that as soon as I woke up, I felt God. That God brought this beautiful day upon me so I could enjoy it.

Is feeling God a sort of optimism? A sort of reassurance that things are going to be okay?

Some people don't need God for that.

No, though many people will attribute directly things to God just because it's like show and tell in church. If you woke up and heard birds singing that's cool, but if you woke up and heard god singing everybody gets all excited. It's dumb, it's not what Christians should conduct themselves like. It trivializes the actual experience which can be as simple as peace on a stressful day. Not the same kind of peace a cigarette or something brings either~


Just because you read the Bible doesn't mean you can claim to know God.

The Bible was written by Man. It is (at best) one of the many possible descriptions of God and his rules.

Yes to the first, yes to the second though I find it quite trustworthy.


Far beyond your thinking plane, I've just shown you how most religions would act like.

What? You don't BELIEVE in MY GOD? I'll kill you for that.


Can you show me even one religion that teaches that? What you've described is the work of men being crazy. It's not the religion, it's the people that do horrible things in it's name even if it forbids doing such things.


Oh, and don't get me started on the crusades.

See above.


And all the people your god has told your religion to kill because god says so.

Specific examples would be nice.


Oh and play nice, yada yada, love you all...time to go make lunch~

[Phunkie]

I used to believe in God, but I never saw him.

Never felt him.

Never needed him.

I grew up. Realized I needed to take the world into my hands.


God didn't create Man, by the way.

We evolved from earlier hominids, who evolved from earlier species, going down the line to the first single-celled organisms that inhabited the early planet Earth.

Evolution created Man, through natural selection. We have fossil records of many different hominids that came before us and bones of ancient people, etc. That's sufficient proof to believe in it.


I dunno if it's just me, but seeing a person spew out Bible verses to defend his claims of God and his rules is silly. Then again, it's the only source you people have.

But it's just a frickin' book.

I'm gonna go pick up The Catcher in the Rye and I'm gonna quote words that fit my claims as well. Both were written by Man, yeah?



People always think something's all true.

~Chapter 2, The Catcher in the Rye

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Lots of talk here about what evil is and that God doesn't care that's why there is evil. Here's a nice story as a rebuttal :3 Sorry if its a bit long, its a nice read~

A science professor began his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain
the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy paused before
his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student said .

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grinned knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considered for a moment. "Here's
one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can
do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us
would if we could. But God doesn't." The student did not answer, so the professor
continued. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even
though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer
that one?"

The student remained silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor asked. He took a sip of water from a glass on
his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student faltered. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son... Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes"

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God
created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define
who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer.

"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they
exist in this world?"

The student squirmed on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student did not answer again, so the professor repeated his question. "Who created
them?"

There was still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer broke away to pace in front of the
classroom. The class was mesmerized. "Tell me," he continued onto another student.
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrayed him and cracked. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stopped pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and
observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever
had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says
your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replied. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeated. "And that is the problem science has with God.
There is no evidence, only faith."

At the back of the room another student stood quietly for a moment before asking a
question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies.. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turned to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly
became very quiet. The student began to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no
heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below
zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such
thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.
Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and
heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F)
is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe
the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units
because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of
it." Silence enveloped the room. A pen dropped somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer!

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have
no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the
meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would
be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor began to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good
semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with,
and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face could not hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain
how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that
there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the
concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even
explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less
fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant
of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite
of life, just the absence of it. Now tell me, professor.. Do you teach your students
that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course
I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor began to
shake his head, still smiling, as he realized where the argument was going. A very
good semester, indeed. "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?" The class
was in an uproar. The student remained silent until the commotion had subsided. "To
continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an
example of what I mean."

The student looked around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen
the professor's brain?" The classroom broke into laughter. "Is there anyone here who
has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt
the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that
you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain,
how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room was silent. The professor stared at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seemed like an eternity, the old man answered. "I guess you'll
have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the
student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday.
It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of
crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else
but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not
exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and
cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not
create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love
present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the
darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

True be that, those things can be considered, but it's possible to prove those stuffs exist because technically, they do.

I wouldn't go down to quoting and scrimming through every single line of text you have there, but in the story above, the professor made several mistakes:

Firstly, light is made from photons. While this particles exist, there be light. Without these particles, our eyes would not be able to react to the state where photons doesn't exist, therefore this particular state where light doesn't get reflected into the cone cells at the back of your eyeball would be called "Darkness" because you couldn't see a thing without light.

Heat is energy. As learned from science, heat can only go from a place with ample heat to a place with less heat. If you would remove all heat from a particular region, you wouldn't be able to feel this particular energy, therefore thrusting you into a state of low heat energy called "Coolness" or "Cold".

The fact that people evolved from a monkey would be wrong too. We did not evolve from monkies, in fact, the particular term would be ape. Monkies are another evolutionary pathline that we once shared the same (Or not) ancestors with. Our evolutionary path is paved by a particular evolutionary speices called labled as "homo". It's true that we couldn't be totally sure that this particular evolutionary path exists, but we do have ample proof through DNA testing and particular diggings through fossil sites and ancient cavemen homes. With this proof, it's possible to deduce that people DID evolve from them, but we can't be a hundred percent sure though.

And as about the professor's brain, we'll just judge the professor as an ordinary human. Having loads of dissections happening all around the world, there is ample proof that if the professor is an ordinary human being, he would naturally have a brain, may it be big, small, smooth or rough, pink or brown. Of course, there's always the case that the professor may not be a human being at all. But the chances of that happening is so slim, it's practically impossible. By any case, if the professor IS to be without a brain, then he would be a miracle.

Yes, miracles, this is what god is based on.

An unknown entity that could cause miracles to happen, the faith to place in this particular hard to prove entity would be in fact, impossible. You can say that it would take a miracle to prove that god exists.

But to have ample proof that god exists would be troublesome. Firstly, christanity isn't the only religion, there's loads of subreligions and main religions out there. Does this means that there's loads of gods out there too? Secondly, imagine the chaos that would happen on this world if someone could really prove that god exists.


Simply put it, if I had to say so. It's more of a period of time where you make peace in within your heart. A time where you place yourself in the center of your universe and just think about the better of life and stuffs like that. It's more of a physiological state where you experience extreme peace and quietness.

The last point is pretty much self-conflicting though.

If I'm going about to rid the world of non-believers with the love of God in my heart, does that means I'm doing good?


Alright, I realized that there's more posts and the stuffs you're reading is probably the corrected bible with the much more "Friendlier" god for the 21st century.

The bible that I've borrowed off the school library was at the 16th century or something.



My God doesn't want anyone dead. They have sinned. They must die.

If this is true, then the very sin that we've done is because we exist in this world.


Can you show me even one religion that teaches that? What you've described is the work of men being crazy. It's not the religion, it's the people that do horrible things in it's name even if it forbids doing such things.

Nevertheless, people are still killing other people. Even during the 17th century, people are still killing each other for not believing in other's religions. From what I've read up on history books, popes and priests are promoting people to kill the non-believers if they refuse to have the same faith. Killing in the name of religion isn't a new thing, I'm pretty sure.


It depends on what god you're talking about. If we're to assume Christianity then there are not some people that he doesn't love. Also, if George Carlin is your religious source for learning it might do you good to take a less aggressive approach to your questions. The guy is a comedian, he's not concerned about getting it right so much as making it funny.

George Carlin isn't my religious source.

Very much like him, I used to go to a christian church, then a catholic one. Almost all; if not all of them, of my uncles, aunts and cousins are all either Christians or Catholics. And do trust me, I was brainwashed by them too when I was young. I've attended a Christian educational based school for 6 years, for 6 years I've been muttering my prayers for every day of the working week. Damn, I can even remember the thing right now.

The problem is that, pretty much like Carlin, the older I get and the way how schools are now teaching Science as a basis of fact is corrupting the image of god. I've started watching the news when I'm 14, reading newspapers and magazines, about how people does crimes and how they're being punished shown me that god isn't really doing anything. It's more of people. People are punishing people for doing crimes like stealing, like murders, assault, rape, drug abuse, selling drugs, armed robberies. Everything's all judged and punished by humans.



Besides, saying that everyone's evil unless they believe in god is selfish, don't you think?


Again, you are confusing my religion with the Islam.

Islamic text din't say anything about killing people.

How ever, there's stories about how god goes about killing non-christians with calmaties and natural disasters.




Nevertheless, in the end, the only thing I would agree with about religion is the way how they teach people to be morally correct. It's an effective way, I would say.

[Fumy]

But Romans 3:23 says that all men have sinned.
My God doesn't want anyone dead. They have sinned. They must die.

Sowwy but you just said every men must die

[Makisushi]

God didn't create Man, by the way.

We evolved from earlier hominids, who evolved from earlier species, going down the line to the first single-celled organisms that inhabited the early planet Earth.


That's the very reason I don't believe in evolution... I mean, if everything came from the same organism, why didn't everything go down the same evolutionary path... And people question where God came from, but I always question where the single celled organism came from... if someone says chemical combinations which luckily mixed together on Earth only, where did the chemicals come from? if someone has an answer to that, its just an unending question of where did it come from.. Both don't have a specific answer, but judging by how things are in this world (like thoughts, processes of the brain, how nothing is "useless") I choose to believe in creation and an intelligent Designer than by everything happening by chance. :)

@Newbie

Exactly what the story was saying.. The absence of photons is darkness, not the presence of something else.. Same with cold, it is the absence of heat, not the presence of another energy which "produces" cold... Evil is simply the absence of love in someone's heart, not because God created evil and is letting it break loose on humanity...

I merely tried to give a definition of what evil was since I read someone ask in a previous post :3

[Syrphid]

That's the very reason I don't believe in evolution... I mean, if everything came from the same organism, why didn't everything go down the same evolutionary path... And people question where God came from, but I always question where the single celled organism came from... if someone says chemical combinations which luckily mixed together on Earth only, where did the chemicals come from? if someone has an answer to that, its just an unending question of where did it come from.. Both don't have a specific answer, but judging by how things are in this world (like thoughts, processes of the brain, how nothing is "useless") I choose to believe in creation and an intelligent Designer than by everything happening by chance. :)

@Newbie

Exactly what the story was saying.. The absence of photons is darkness, not the presence of something else.. Same with cold, it is the absence of heat, not the presence of another energy which "produces" cold... Evil is simply the absence of love in someone's heart, not because God created evil and is letting it break loose on humanity...

I merely tried to give a definition of what evil was since I read someone ask in a previous post :3

To appeal to authority here, virtually all biologists accept the theory of evolution, and believe that humans and other primates evolved from the same common ancestor. These are people who have spent decades learning about all the nuances of evolution, who have spent even more decades actually working within the framework of evolution, researching and discussing and publishing their findings for their peers to see.

Somehow I'm pretty sure there's an answer to your question. Have you tried googling? I too busy, will link dump you later if you want. Point is, I would require solid evidence to go against such a unified scientific consensus on something that I have no personal experience with. Likely you are in the same boat as me.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

That's the very reason I don't believe in evolution... I mean, if everything came from the same organism, why didn't everything go down the same evolutionary path... And people question where God came from, but I always question where the single celled organism came from... if someone says chemical combinations which luckily mixed together on Earth only, where did the chemicals come from? if someone has an answer to that, its just an unending question of where did it come from.. Both don't have a specific answer, but judging by how things are in this world (like thoughts, processes of the brain, how nothing is "useless") I choose to believe in creation and an intelligent Designer than by everything happening by chance. :)

@Newbie

Exactly what the story was saying.. The absence of photons is darkness, not the presence of something else.. Same with cold, it is the absence of heat, not the presence of another energy which "produces" cold... Evil is simply the absence of love in someone's heart, not because God created evil and is letting it break loose on humanity...

I merely tried to give a definition of what evil was since I read someone ask in a previous post :3

Well, it's like asking about how "Crystals" grow. They're naturally not living, yet they grow in size and proportion.

Single celled organism came from a chemical rich primitive soup filled with carbon and other nutrients that's needed for life, but that isn't enough. What made it living is probably came from another particular element, perhaps lighting. In fact, there's a theory that with the correct elements, life would just exist.

The reason why it doesn't evolve in the same path is because life isn't static. It evolves and change to suit it's environment best. You might want to look up on Darwin on that one, it explains how evolution works.


Nevertheless, these stuffs can never be a hundred percent true. But at least it's something that we can trust on because of the odds.


Oh, and about how all humans are evil, then do you think you're evil too?

Then why are you evil? What is it that you've done wrong ever since you've came to this world that you're instantly labled as an evildoer the time where you've existed in your mother's womb?

This is one of the parts I can never understand.



Well, in particular, in Taoist terms, living is in fact, a test.

If you could imagine all the creatures in the world as a caste system, with insects on the bottom and humans at the top and throw in the theory about reincarnation, you'll have a system where it's possible for you to be "reborn" as an insect or an animal instead of going straight to heaven.

This system is based on karma, the more good you do, the more chances you have in remaining as a human.


And then there's karma. What exactly is karma? Is it god's way of labling people as good or bad? And why is this particular term apparent in particular individuals and lacking in others?


I can't say I'm an atheist, I'm more of an average person that had went through several religions easily.

[Phunkie]

That's the very reason I don't believe in evolution... I mean, if everything came from the same organism, why didn't everything go down the same evolutionary path... And people question where God came from, but I always question where the single celled organism came from... if someone says chemical combinations which luckily mixed together on Earth only, where did the chemicals come from? if someone has an answer to that, its just an unending question of where did it come from.. Both don't have a specific answer, but judging by how things are in this world (like thoughts, processes of the brain, how nothing is "useless") I choose to believe in creation and an intelligent Designer than by everything happening by chance. :)

Science can't explain everything. But there are theories for that actually. :)

Abiogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis), the theory of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter.

Many of the elements found Earth are manufactured through a process that occurs naturally in the inside of stars, nucleosynthesis-- specifically, nuclear fusion (which is just combining lighter elements to produce heavier ones).

WE (yes, ourselves) are made up of the byproducts of stellar nucleosynthesis. Carbon is created inside stars and when these stars die, they expand and blow the outer layers outward, which can further recombine to form other stuff.

Of course, it takes a really long time for a planet or even a star to gather enough material and form into a sphere (etc.), but that's how it goes.

Here's a diagram.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Nucleosynthesis_in_a_star.gif

When stars finish burning hydrogen, they begin burning helium, then nitrogen and so on and so forth.


As for abiogenesis, people have performed experiments to show that it is possible to form organics (which are carbon compounds) under the existing conditions of the early Earth. Check out the Miller-Urey Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment).

These organic compounds could have eventually gone to form self-replicating RNA, then the first membranes and proto-cells, etc., etc. Eventually the first single-celled organism stepped on the scene.

And from there it's evolution, baby.

[Virtue]

God didn't create Man, by the way.

We evolved from earlier hominids, who evolved from earlier species, going down the line to the first single-celled organisms that inhabited the early planet Earth.

Evolution created Man, through natural selection. We have fossil records of many different hominids that came before us and bones of ancient people, etc. That's sufficient proof to believe in it.
I believe you are trying to start an evolution debate with me, which is pointless. (Hebrews 11:6.)

Carry on elsewhere...Evolution is of no importance to me.

Sowwy but you just said every men must die
Of course. Or do we have eternal life here on earth?

I too have sinned... I must die.

However, God has saved me from the Second Death, and has instead granted me eternal life with Him in glory for eternity, because I chose to sacrifice this life of mine (which I could be spending fornicating, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc) and instead use it for His glory.


If this is true, then the very sin that we've done is because we exist in this world.Eve committed the original sin. Because of that we became mortals. It was until Christ's Death, that there was no afterlife. He was at war with Death and sin, and He conquered them both. What follows is my reply to the quote above of Fumy.

There is no man who has never sinned.


Islamic text din't say anything about killing people.
“When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Sura 47-4)

This is also my last reply until Saturday, if the thread isn't locked by then. I'm going abroad.

Be well, my brethren.

[Makisushi]

Well, it's like asking about how "Crystals" grow. They're naturally not living, yet they grow in size and proportion.

Single celled organism came from a chemical rich primitive soup filled with carbon and other nutrients that's needed for life, but that isn't enough. What made it living is probably came from another particular element, perhaps lighting. In fact, there's a theory that with the correct elements, life would just exist.

The reason why it doesn't evolve in the same path is because life isn't static. It evolves and change to suit it's environment best. You might want to look up on Darwin on that one, it explains how evolution works.


Nevertheless, these stuffs can never be a hundred percent true. But at least it's something that we can trust on because of the odds.


Oh, and about how all humans are evil, then do you think you're evil too?

Then why are you evil? What is it that you've done wrong ever since you've came to this world that you're instantly labled as an evildoer the time where you've existed in your mother's womb?

This is one of the parts I can never understand.


To appeal to authority here, virtually all biologists accept the theory of evolution, and believe that humans and other primates evolved from the same common ancestor. These are people who have spent decades learning about all the nuances of evolution, who have spent even more decades actually working within the framework of evolution, researching and discussing and publishing their findings for their peers to see.

Somehow I'm pretty sure there's an answer to your question. Have you tried googling? I too busy, will link dump you later if you want. Point is, I would require solid evidence to go against such a unified scientific consensus on something that I have no personal experience with. Likely you are in the same boat as me.

Yes, I tried Googling :3 But it all leads to the Bigbang theory with the large chunk of matter exploding. Still doesn't answer my question, where did the chunk of matter come from? Scientists haven't answered that one.. Like how our religious leaders haven't answered where God comes from. It comes down to a matter of choice which to believe. I chose mine lol

And just because evolution is a general fact for a large group of people doesn't make it true, even with the evidence you show. Pretty much how like you guys do not believe in God even if a large group of people consider it as a general fact and show you evidence (like what some people here have tried to do).

"evolves and changes to suit its environment". So, consider global warming, if the planet heats up and water level rises and oxygen depletes and stuff, would humans or other creatures evolve to survive blistering heat and breathe another element underwater? Then we shouldn't worry about global warming then~

[Fumy]

Of course. Or do we have eternal life here on earth?

I too have sinned... I must die.


So you're saying that unborn children that haven't sinned but still died should have eternal life?

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

I believe you are trying to start an evolution debate with me, which is pointless. (Hebrews 11:6.)

Carry on elsewhere...Evolution is of no importance to me.

Of course. Or do we have eternal life here on earth?

I too have sinned... I must die.

However, God has saved me from the Second Death, and has instead granted me eternal life with Him in glory for eternity, because I chose to sacrifice this life of mine (which I could be spending fornicating, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc) and instead use it for His glory.

Eve committed the original sin. Because of that we became mortals. It was until Christ's Death, that there was no afterlife. He was at war with Death and sin, and He conquered them both. What follows is my reply to the quote above of Fumy.

There is no man who has never sinned.


“When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Sura 47-4)

This is also my last reply until Saturday, if the thread isn't locked by then. I'm going abroad.

Be well, my brethren.

Pretty much like your christian bible, I'm pretty sure that particular line was removed.

On the other hand, if that is true, then why are we getting punished by the crimes that our ancestors has done? Don't you find that a little unfair?
It's like saying you're mentally retarded because your grandfather is born that way, or you'll get cancer because your mother smokes alot.

Oh, and I like this thread, it enables me to type pages and pages of words and earn gold for my next Cirno... : D

[Virtue]

Pretty much like your christian bible, I'm pretty sure that particular line was removed.
When I'm back from abroad, please cite your sources that any such line was removed. But you can't because there is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner like I typed a wall of text about a few pages back. Don't make me repeat myself.

Bye for now.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Revised English Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_English_Bible)

The REB is the result of both advances in scholarship and translation made since the 1960s and also a desire to correct what have been seen as some of the NEB's more egregious errors. For examples of changes, see the references. The changes remove many of the most idiosyncratic renderings of the New English Bible, moving the REB more in the direction of standard translations such as NRSV or NIV.

The translation is intended to be gender-inclusive, though it does not take this to the same extent as the NRSV or TNIV. The gender-inclusive approach has been praised by liberals but criticized by those who consider this approach to be a bow to political correctness and feminist theology.

The style has been described by several people as more "literary" than NRSV or NIV. It tends slightly further in the direction of "dynamic equivalence" than those translations, but still translates Hebrew poetry as poetry and reflects at least some of the characteristics of that poetry. The Revised English Bible's general accuracy and literary flavour has led Stephen Mitchell and others[1] to compliment it as one of the best English renderings.

Like the NEB, it is primarily presented to the British and British-educated public, although it has some American users and admirers.






I'm pretty sure I've read up somewhere about an older, much more serious and sinister version of the old bible with a much more cruel god before the new changes in attempts to make god look like a softer, much more respectable character.


And about the islamic line, I'm asking it on MSN from my Muslim friend right now this very instant.

[Phunkie]

God places me on this planet and I am instantly a sinner, so I must die.

But he lets me live my life, claiming to give me free will while doing so. However, if I don't worship him, I go to hell.


Honestly, how can you believe that? Do you not see how silly that is?


People never notice anything.

Chapter 2, The Catcher in the Rye


There's a difference between science and religion. Both of them are pretty far-fetched when you think about it. God created the Universe, the Universe is expanding, etc. But the difference is that you cannot step out of the box in religion, while in science you can.

God does not let you see alternatives. No, of course not. God is the only answer to you.

Science thinks about all the different possible ways to obtain a solution.

Religion is too limited.


You're automatically guilty from the day you are born, according to God. For the mistakes that one of your ancestors committed. How unfair.

You are born and you are a sinner.

That sounds like a children's horror book to me.



I blame it on the Bible. You all follow its word too closely.

I wonder, do you eat shellfish?

Your God is a joke. He is selfish and cruel. He is not someone I would worship.

You claim he is so great, but I don't see it.

Great is being kind, fair, loving, compassionate. It is giving everyone a shot at equality, freedom and happiness. It is not striking down people who do not side with you or have different beliefs. It is being selfless and not asking for too much.

The God you believe in condemns innocent people-- non-believers, homosexuals, newborn sinners who are free of any such guilt! He is not kind or loving. He is unfair.

He is a monster.


Thank goodness I've learned to live without him.

[Osayidan]

Another thing I forgot to mention is how everything is so convenient for religion.
"this and this doesn't add up or make sense"
"that's okay, it's god."

"how is this possible?"
"it's god"

"why did this happen?"
"god said so"

Get the idea? Religious teachings are like an annoyed parent answering a 5 year old kid who keeps saying "why?" after every answer you give him.

[Makisushi]

I'm on the "I believe God exists" side here but I don't really think the Bible would be useful in a debate. Yes, it has been written with divine inspiration but I'm pretty sure it was not compiled and/or translated with divine inspiration ._. Not totally sure though, just a little sure.

@Phunkie. Exactly, there are theories to explain how life came to be. And that's what they will remain to be, just theories. Until someone recreates life in a laboratory under a controlled environment :3

All of this debate is based on theories actually, nothing on both side has been 100% proven to be true. Except for the fact that both atheists and theists follow and invisible rule called conscience and morals which is the basis of society~

[Osayidan]

I'm on the "I believe God exists" side here but I don't really think the Bible would be useful in a debate. Yes, it has been written with divine inspiration but I'm pretty sure it was not compiled and/or translated with divine inspiration ._. Not totally sure though, just a little sure.

@Phunkie. Exactly, there are theories to explain how life came to be. And that's what they will remain to be, just theories. Until someone recreates life in a laboratory under a controlled environment :3

All of this debate is based on theories actually, nothing on both side has been 100% proven to be true. Except for the fact that both atheists and theists follow and invisible rule called conscience and morals which is the basis of society~

I see both science and religion as being incomplete. Some aspects of each might complement each other in some areas, such as developing new technologies or exploring the universe in search for answers relating to our origins and this so called god. Everything about human society is flawed, except for an innocent newborn baby, who will soon be corrupted.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

I see both science and religion as being incomplete. Some aspects of each might complement each other in some areas, such as developing new technologies or exploring the universe in search for answers relating to our origins and this so called god. Everything about human society is flawed, except for an innocent newborn baby, who will soon be corrupted.

Yeah, with porn.

Mom did it.

[Makisushi]

I see both science and religion as being incomplete. Some aspects of each might complement each other in some areas, such as developing new technologies or exploring the universe in search for answers relating to our origins and this so called god. Everything about human society is flawed, except for an innocent newborn baby, who will soon be corrupted.

QFT

That's why hybrid belief is better than believing just one side. Like what I said before, religion and science are not two different stories, they are just different books telling the same story from different points of view. Its better to read them both and believe what you want to believe

[Fumy]

QFT

That's why hybrid belief is better than believing just one side. Like what I said before, religion and science are not two different stories, they are just different books telling the same story from different points of view. Its better to read them both and believe what you want to believe


Diffrence between Science and Religion:

Without science you would still live in the nature and hunt animals naked with your bare hands.

Without the fear from going to hell of religion the world would be probably be worse than it is.

[Phunkie]

I'm on the "I believe God exists" side here but I don't really think the Bible would be useful in a debate. Yes, it has been written with divine inspiration but I'm pretty sure it was not compiled and/or translated with divine inspiration ._. Not totally sure though, just a little sure.

@Phunkie. Exactly, there are theories to explain how life came to be. And that's what they will remain to be, just theories. Until someone recreates life in a laboratory under a controlled environment :3

All of this debate is based on theories actually, nothing on both side has been 100% proven to be true. Except for the fact that both atheists and theists follow and invisible rule called conscience and morals which is the basis of society~

Everything has to be a theory before it's really confirmed.

Special Relativity, for example.

However, the difference between theories and religion, is that theories can be tested. And if they don't work, you move on to testing the next one and the next one until you come up with a good result that supports your claims.

Chances are we will never get close to recreating life in a controlled experiment. I may be wrong, but conditions on Earth now are not as they were during the time the first single-celled organisms arose. It would have to be a really good experiment.

And again, I have to mention that we will never be able to know all of the mysteries of the Universe. Like, what's outside the visible Universe, for example?

As an answer to everything, I just don't think that "God" is enough.

But you are right with what you said and that is something religious people do not see. God is a theory. Just like the Big Bang, just like many other ideas in science.

God is a theory! It is what you believe in, it is not the absolute answer.

However, you will never be able to see that since religion does not allow for you to step outside of the box and consider alternatives.

[Tablo]

Online keyboard battles will never work!

[Fumy]

Online keyboard battles will never work!

Pvp is just an online keyboard battle too and pvp works fine

[Phunkie]

Whoa, kinda off-topic, but do any of you believe in ghosts?

[Makisushi]

Diffrence between Science and Religion:

Without science you would still live in the nature and hunt animals naked with your bare hands.

Without the fear from going to hell of religion the world would be probably be worse than it is.

Exactly :3

We agree that even though science and religion has their positives and negatives, and that they have their differences, Earth would be pretty darn hard to live on if one of them didn't exist and both are/were necessary to build society as it is now~



However, you will never be able to see that since religion does not allow for you to step outside of the box and consider alternatives.

I told you, I'm not totally religious. Honestly, I fall asleep during mass a lot and I aced all my science subjects for my past three years in college. I believe in God and I also believe in Science. Its a hybrid belief which lets me have faith in God while still considering all of the alternatives that science has to offer. Thats why I don't believe that the bible is literal, that the earth was created in a literal 7 days and other stuff like that :3

[Tablo]

Pvp is just an online keyboard battle too and pvp works fine

lol...

[Phunkie]

"evolves and changes to suit its environment". So, consider global warming, if the planet heats up and water level rises and oxygen depletes and stuff, would humans or other creatures evolve to survive blistering heat and breathe another element underwater? Then we shouldn't worry about global warming then~

The planet has been warming up too quickly for animals to adapt which could prove to be very detrimental.

Plus, evolution takes place over long periods of time compared to the few decades in which global warming has taken place.

We need to worry about it ASAP.

[Fumy]

Exactly :3

We agree that even though science and religion has their positives and negatives, and that they have their differences, Earth would be pretty darn hard to live on if one of them didn't exist and both are/were necessary to build society as it is now~

Religion isn't necessary anymore Atheists already let go of god and don't believe in god anymore and no WW3 didn't start because of that. Religious people just believe in him too much and for some of them the fear of hell is the only reason to stay religious and ATM it looks more like Religion is actually bad for the society just look at these Muslims that blow up themself... (No offence I'm not talking about muslims in general just the really crazy ones)

[Makisushi]

Religion isn't necessary anymore Atheists already let go of god and don't believe in god anymore and no WW3 didn't start because of that. Religious people just believe in him too much and for some of them the fear of hell is the only reason to stay religious and ATM it looks more like Religion is actually bad for the society just look at these Muslims that blow up themself... (No offence I'm not talking about muslims in general just the really crazy ones)

Yeah, the really crazy ones give religion a bad name.

And it doesn't really matter if a person is an atheist or a theist as long as we do not step on other people and do good stuff, all is well right? There's no reason to abolish religion just because it is not needed. Who knows, it might be needed in the future, just like it was in the past. Why throw away something which you deem useless right now, when it might prove to be useful to the society in the future.

EDIT: btw, I see religion as a reminder to people to be good. Not to scare the crap out of them. Its not about the worshiping, its about how you treat one another. It wouldn't be a good idea to remove a reminder, now would it :D

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Just gotten the reply off my friend, ripped directly off MSN:


Wanvadder [LtGen] says:
of course he can say the verses are evil
because he only takes part of it
read the whole story to understand it, not read the parts and say its evil
that sura is about those who obviously against islam and openly wage war against the muslim
peaceful ones are the ones who are not waging war against people
kinda like a self-defense
for the situations in malaysia, it is considered as dhimmy, where the non muslims are not required to take arms to defend the country
that is the obligations for the muslims in the country
in exchange, just pay some taxes
we dont force you
something like that

NewbieNub - You are a loose cannon sanvich, but you're a darn good COP! says:
so simply put it, it's just an insurance

Wanvadder [LtGen] says:
yeah
you are welcomed to take part in defending, but its not obligatory
it is obligatory for all the muslim in the country

NewbieNub - You are a loose cannon sanvich, but you're a darn good COP! says:
To put it simple, its like higurashi, yes?

Wanvadder [LtGen] says:
and islam does not have a majority in the world terrorism issues
check out mexico, the drug cartels are a big ****ing problem
virginia tech massacre in US
tokyo bomb attack
we dont monopoly this whole terrorism ****
north korean assassination attempt
there are a lot obviously, but for people like him, it will be the muslims who are at fault


Put it simple, it's like Higurashi.

[Athde]

1. The bible has no known author. So we can not really define it as Holy can we?
2. Nothing is certain. For all we know science and relegion have no proof that either of their theories exist.
3. Why does relegion have to get in the way of science and vice-versa? Just leave everything the way it is. Maybe then we can actually get along...

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Oh, just in case you're wondering.

Science "Laws" will always be true UNTIL something breaks the laws of science.


That's why science is not much different from religions, just with logic thrown in.

[Juno]

I grew up. Realized I needed to take the world into my hands.

God is not a crutch, or should not be. It takes no less guts to be a Christian than it does to not be one.


God didn't create Man, by the way.

We evolved from earlier hominids, who evolved from earlier species, going down the line to the first single-celled organisms that inhabited the early planet Earth.

Evolution created Man, through natural selection. We have fossil records of many different hominids that came before us and bones of ancient people, etc. That's sufficient proof to believe in it.

Can you be more specific? I'm no stranger to evolutionary theory but your case would be much stronger if you presented the evidence you're hinting at. It's also be much more concise in terms of general debate, not that I'm going to try to disprove evolution or anything.


I dunno if it's just me, but seeing a person spew out Bible verses to defend his claims of God and his rules is silly. Then again, it's the only source you people have.

But it's just a frickin' book.

I'm gonna go pick up The Catcher in the Rye and I'm gonna quote words that fit my claims as well. Both were written by Man, yeah?

The difference here is painfully obvious to me and I think to you as well. I don't think it'll do any good spelling it out any more than I already have though. What I thought we were concerned about was the integrity of the religion but what you're alluding to is the legitimacy. For the sake of our sanity we'd really need separate threads for that.



Alright, I realized that there's more posts and the stuffs you're reading is probably the corrected bible with the much more "Friendlier" god for the 21st century.

The bible that I've borrowed off the school library was at the 16th century or something.


I'm pretty anal about my translations. If there's some question I go back to the earliest manuscripts preferably in the original language and break it down from there. Clearly there was one meaning they were trying to get across...rather than hassle with interpretations we need to find out what that was. It's often easier than it sounds. At any rate, I'm not watering anything down or pulling any punches if that's what you mean.


Nevertheless, people are still killing other people. Even during the 17th century, people are still killing each other for not believing in other's religions. From what I've read up on history books, popes and priests are promoting people to kill the non-believers if they refuse to have the same faith. Killing in the name of religion isn't a new thing, I'm pretty sure.

Nevertheless, the religion isn't telling them to kill people. Therefore, don't blame the religion, blame the people who are killing people. It's wrong to say it's the fault of the religion though there's no question that it was misconstrued to help promote such events.


George Carlin isn't my religious source.

-phew-


Very much like him, I used to go to a christian church, then a catholic one. Almost all; if not all of them, of my uncles, aunts and cousins are all either Christians or Catholics. And do trust me, I was brainwashed by them too when I was young. I've attended a Christian educational based school for 6 years, for 6 years I've been muttering my prayers for every day of the working week. Damn, I can even remember the thing right now.

Sounds disgustingly catholic that school, not to be confused with Christian. It's remarkable how different the taught Christian lifestyle and the Catholic lifestyle differ. It sounds as if they were indeed trying to brainwash you which is not something I approve of. I see it all the time and it breaks my heart. Also, I've never understood this whole candy dispenser prayer thing. Prayer is supposed to be between you and God...it makes no sense that someone else can tell you what to say.


The problem is that, pretty much like Carlin, the older I get and the way how schools are now teaching Science as a basis of fact is corrupting the image of god. I've started watching the news when I'm 14, reading newspapers and magazines, about how people does crimes and how they're being punished shown me that god isn't really doing anything. It's more of people. People are punishing people for doing crimes like stealing, like murders, assault, rape, drug abuse, selling drugs, armed robberies. Everything's all judged and punished by humans.


At 14 I went to a boarding school for the 'best and brightest' students in my state. There weren't very many Christians there and those who claimed to be didn't act like it. The disparity between the Christians I knew, the non-Christians I knew and the Christians in the bible was troubling. Gandhi said it best when he stated that he would be a Christian if they actually acted like they were taught to act...and adopting that as a sort of mantra I resolved to toss out any brain washing I might have received and start from scratch (eventually anyway). I got to wrestle with all the fun questions like 'why do bad things happen to good people' and vice versa. My faith is built from the bottom up or so I like to think. It's hard to just dismiss your early life so I'm constantly finding things that I believe without reason and having to address them.

As for schools teaching science, it's always been my second best subject behind math. Does that mean that sometimes I'm more skeptical than my peers? Probably, but not so much because of my religion as because I am a skeptic. Often times people just gloss over things without sufficiently presenting evidence because no one challenges it. If I lived like that I'd just be another brainwashed bible beater. I realize I can't exactly recreate experiments but the best thing about science is all the detailed notes people take so that I don't have to. I try to apply that same skepticism in all areas of my life though I realize there are some things that I believe that I cannot prove to others despite having weighed the evidence and being sure of it myself. You can call it my theory of a Father if you want, no Christian should be without one.


Besides, saying that everyone's evil unless they believe in god is selfish, don't you think?

Evil is such a poorly defined catchphrase, I don't really want to get into that. All have sinned though, whether they believe or not. So if by evil you mean a sinner, your belief doesn't change that.


To appeal to authority here, virtually all biologists accept the theory of evolution, and believe that humans and other primates evolved from the same common ancestor. These are people who have spent decades learning about all the nuances of evolution, who have spent even more decades actually working within the framework of evolution, researching and discussing and publishing their findings for their peers to see.

Somehow I'm pretty sure there's an answer to your question. Have you tried googling? I too busy, will link dump you later if you want. Point is, I would require solid evidence to go against such a unified scientific consensus on something that I have no personal experience with. Likely you are in the same boat as me.

We could say the same thing about the earth being flat or some other since trashed theory. It'd be best to just stick with the evidence. I think I'll let someone else procure it though because my replies are already taking waaaay too long to write up t.t


Then why are you evil? What is it that you've done wrong ever since you've came to this world that you're instantly labled as an evildoer the time where you've existed in your mother's womb?

This is one of the parts I can never understand.

In the womb I don't think it would be possible to sin, though it usually doesn't take long upon exiting. Of course, I can't be sure how you're defining evil so it's hard to respond. I might be able to answer if you rephrase it more clearly :x?


As for abiogenesis, people have performed experiments to show that it is possible to form organics (which are carbon compounds) under the existing conditions of the early Earth. Check out the Miller-Urey Experiment.

These organic compounds could have eventually gone to form self-replicating RNA, then the first membranes and proto-cells, etc., etc. Eventually the first single-celled organism stepped on the scene.

And from there it's evolution, baby.

Linking to Miller-Urey is a good first step, but look at the bolded part again. This is good evidence, it's not by any means conclusive evidence. If it proves that life could have eventually arisen from such a set-up that is indeed exciting, but even then it is not a stretch to say that since creation was set up with the governing laws we've found in chemistry and physics and such that something like this would be possible under those laws. It does not rule out the creator jumping the gun and just placing some living organisms in place already.

It's a good start anyway.


I believe you are trying to start an evolution debate with me, which is pointless. (Hebrews 11:6.)

Carry on elsewhere...Evolution is of no importance to me.

That verse doesn't mean we just stick our heads in the sand when confronted with something, but rather is a testament that somewhere along the line we have to rely on faith because we can't prove what we believe in.


Eve committed the original sin.

To be fair, Adam was right there and didn't do anything.


So, consider global warming, if the planet heats up and water level rises and oxygen depletes and stuff, would humans or other creatures evolve to survive blistering heat and breathe another element underwater? Then we shouldn't worry about global warming then~

A few genetically unique children might live, but me and you would be screwed mate.


Revised English Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The REB is the result of both advances in scholarship and translation made since the 1960s and also a desire to correct what have been seen as some of the NEB's more egregious errors. For examples of changes, see the references. The changes remove many of the most idiosyncratic renderings of the New English Bible, moving the REB more in the direction of standard translations such as NRSV or NIV.


No, no respectable Christian uses the REB. Any other questions?

The most accurate translation is no translation. Instead of reworking things just go back to the original manuscripts.


I'm pretty sure I've read up somewhere about an older, much more serious and sinister version of the old bible with a much more cruel god before the new changes in attempts to make god look like a softer, much more respectable character.

A source for this would be nice, I can't really refute it if neither of us knows exactly what you're talking about.



In the time it took me to write this two more pages have spawned, I'll read over them later t.t

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Ah, what I'm trying to say that once you're formed in your mother's womb, you're pretty much doomed on a path to death anyway regardless on who you are.

It's stuck in your genes, it's in your chemistry and you just can't remove it.



And since everyone who've sinned will have to die, and since all of us will die at a point of time, doesn't that makes everyone a sinner without knowing what's the true sin is? Basically, it's like saying it's sinful to exist in this world.

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

Ah, what I'm trying to say that once you're formed in your mother's womb, you're pretty much doomed on a path to death anyway regardless on who you are.

It's stuck in your genes, it's in your chemistry and you just can't remove it.



And since everyone who've sinned will have to die, and since all of us will die at a point of time, doesn't that makes everyone a sinner without knowing what's the true sin is? Basically, it's like saying it's sinful to exist in this world.

I think that's the basis of most religions, and why most devout people end up hating themselves and locking themselves away in monestaries, to repent for all the sins they've committed, or what have you..
Though, I'd like to think, if there were a god, he'd have a little bit more faith in us.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

I think that's the basis of most religions, and why most devout people end up hating themselves and locking themselves away in monestaries, to repent for all the sins they've committed, or what have you..
Though, I'd like to think, if there were a god, he'd have a little bit more faith in us.

Well, I've been with an artistic anime fanart group for too long and stuffs.

Therefore, my opinions on how god is like had been twisted so badly and wildly, I don't feel that it's right to post it here. Nevertheless, may it be a god or a goddess or a deity, it only exists in my imagination.

That's as far as it gets.

[Juno]

Ah, what I'm trying to say that once you're formed in your mother's womb, you're pretty much doomed on a path to death anyway regardless on who you are.

It's stuck in your genes, it's in your chemistry and you just can't remove it.



And since everyone who've sinned will have to die, and since all of us will die at a point of time, doesn't that makes everyone a sinner without knowing what's the true sin is? Basically, it's like saying it's sinful to exist in this world.

Well, it's in our nature to do things which are sins. This whole religion business would be -so- much easier if it wasn't. So yeah, everyone will/has sinned so while it's not literally a sin to exist in this world it can be said that if you exist in this world you are a sinner.

This is the part where forgiveness comes in, if it wasn't for that then I wouldn't really have an answer for those who call God cruel.


I think that's the basis of most religions, and why most devout people end up hating themselves and locking themselves away in monestaries, to repent for all the sins they've committed, or what have you..
Though, I'd like to think, if there were a god, he'd have a little bit more faith in us.

Most devout people end up hating themselves and locking themselves away? To be honest, I don't think that's the motivation for becoming a monk, self-hatred. God doesn't hate me though I admit I frustrate myself at times. If he can forgive me, then I can forgive myself.

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

Most devout people end up hating themselves and locking themselves away? To be honest, I don't think that's the motivation for becoming a monk, self-hatred.

Have you ever heard of Opus Dei?
Also, when I say devout, I am referring to zealots...and giving up sex, mainstream media, pretty much an ordinary life is quite extreme.
I do not consider, salad bar christians as devout.
I would wish that on no one.
I really shouldn't have posted in this thread, it has FAIL written all over it.
So yea, just my .02.

[Fumy]

Most devout people end up hating themselves and locking themselves away? To be honest, I don't think that's the motivation for becoming a monk, self-hatred.

My grandpa was a monk and no he didn't hate hisself. He enjoyed life but well he didn't believe in god he was a buddhist. So I have to say I don't believe that becoming a monk has something to do with self-hatred. Well I dunno about devout people but over here some people become monks to become wise

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

My grandpa was a monk and no he didn't hate hisself. He enjoyed life but well he didn't believe in god he was a buddhist. So I have to say I don't believe that becoming a monk has something to do with self-hatred
Isn't one of the principles of being a monk, being celibate?

XD
He must have been a monk later in life or something.
Seeing as ...he is your grandpa.

[Fumy]

Isn't one of the principles of being a monk, being celibate?

XD
He must have been a monk later in life or something.
Seeing as ...he is your grandpa.

Well I dunno bout that xD but he was a buddha so he is an enlightened man

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Well, what can I say...

Life's unfair.

[Juno]

Have you ever heard of Opus Dei?
Also, when I say devout, I am referring to zealots...and giving up sex, mainstream media, pretty much an ordinary life is quite extreme.
I do not consider, salad bar christians as devout.
I would wish that on no one.
I really shouldn't have posted in this thread, it has FAIL written all over it.
So yea, just my .02.

So depending on what you mean by salad bar Christians (which I assume is people who pick and choose what to follow) we all have to be zealots who cut ourselves off from the world and give up sex or are just going through the motions?

I'm not sure what Opus Dei has to do with this either and to perfectly clear that's a catholic organization. I have nothing to do with them and have no interest in defending their practices.

This thread has been surprisingly not fail though I really think he premise that started it needed to be more well defined :x

[Fumy]

This thread has been surprisingly not fail though I really think he premise that started it needed to be more well defined :x

Arguing about god is fail :S No insulting anyone but at the end you have 2 groups: people that believe in god and people that don't and I doubt any side is gonna say :"You're right" 'cause for religous ppl it would be admiting that god doesn't exist and for non religous people admit that god does exist.

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

I'd add another group to that.
There are people who believe in god, but don't follow organized religion.
You don't have to be a (insert generic religion here) to believe in god.

But yeah, basically this thread fails because, A)I refuse to discuss religion on a video game forum, I'm sure mabinogi is a sin somewhere.
And B) There will never be an end to this, debating religion is nothing new, there is and never will be a solution, until everyone is dead, or aliens or something.

[Fumy]

I'd add another group to that.
There are people who believe in god, but don't follow organized religion.
You don't have to be a (insert generic religion here) to believe in god.

But yeah, basically this thread fails because, A)I refuse to discuss religion on a video game forum, I'm sure mabinogi is a sin somewhere.
And B) There will never be an end to this, debating religion is nothing new, there is and never will be a solution, until everyone is dead, or aliens or something.

Looking at loli in game girls and thinking:"omg shes so cute/hawt" is a sin right? xD

[Juno]

It's more of a discussion than a debate. The goal is simply to understand one another, not to convince each other we're wrong.

I think it was Tony Campollo that said 'No one has ever become a Christian because they lost an argument' and I believe the reverse holds true as well.

[Rime]

I'd add another group to that.
There are people who believe in god, but don't follow organized religion.
You don't have to be a (insert generic religion here) to believe in god.

I think it's an issue of disillusionment with the branches of Christianity, and their respective interpretations of the bible (unless you're worshipping another monotheistic god). Personally, if I believed in god, I'd probably fall into this category since don't trust reinterpretations of religions enough to affiliate myself with any single branch.


But yeah, basically this thread fails because, A)I refuse to discuss religion on a video game forum, I'm sure mabinogi is a sin somewhere.
And B) There will never be an end to this, debating religion is nothing new, there is and never will be a solution, until everyone is dead, or aliens or something.

A)The quality of the debate depends on its participants, and this forum has some relatively intelligent posters. Give us a change, whydontcha?
B)If the answers were easy, there wouldn't be a debate. Religion makes excellent debates since, no matter how little or how much you prepare, there can be no winner.

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

A)The quality of the debate depends on its participants, and this forum has some relatively intelligent posters. Give us a change, whydontcha?
B)If the answers were easy, there wouldn't be a debate. Religion makes excellent debates since, no matter how little or how much you prepare, there can be no winner.

I just don't see a point in arguing when, frankly I don't really care what other people think on this issue...as I know what works for me, and sooner or later it'll just frustrate one of us.
.. Though, I fall in the same category as you, belief wise..
Things such as 'belief' and 'faith' are 2 highly subjective, and relative words, what's the point in arguing things until we're all black and blue in the face about something I may never understand or you might never totally get.
There is a reason they say 2 things you never talk about(don't remember the context, but it feels appropriate), are politics, and religion.
I've gone along well enough making friends with people regardless their political or religious affiliation. I don't see why it should matter now.

[Time]

Yes, I tried Googling :3 But it all leads to the Bigbang theory with the large chunk of matter exploding. Still doesn't answer my question, where did the chunk of matter come from? Scientists haven't answered that one.. Like how our religious leaders haven't answered where God comes from. It comes down to a matter of choice which to believe. I chose mine lol

And just because evolution is a general fact for a large group of people doesn't make it true, even with the evidence you show. Pretty much how like you guys do not believe in God even if a large group of people consider it as a general fact and show you evidence (like what some people here have tried to do).

"evolves and changes to suit its environment". So, consider global warming, if the planet heats up and water level rises and oxygen depletes and stuff, would humans or other creatures evolve to survive blistering heat and breathe another element underwater? Then we shouldn't worry about global warming then~
Yeah, this is kinda confusing, I mean theoretically its impossible to get something out of nothing, and there had to have been nothing before there was anything, this is pretty much impossible to debate...Or understand for that matter.

Im still confused on what evidence there actually is that god exists, for evolution theres the fossil record, we can show small changes developing in the animal...

Evolution takes a long long time, it takes generations to maybe get a small change, its all by chance, so no, we have to worry about these things

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

Yeah, this is kinda confusing, I mean theoretically its impossible to get something out of nothing, and there had to have been nothing before there was anything, this is pretty much impossible to debate...Or understand for that matter.

Im still confused on what evidence there actually is that god exists, for evolution theres the fossil record, we can show small changes developing in the animal...

Evolution takes a long long time, it takes generations to maybe get a small change, its all by chance.
Maybe god IS Evolution! :O
lol
Ok, adieu.

[Fumy]

Im still confused on what evidence there actually is that god exists, for evolution theres the fossil record, we can show small changes developing in the animal...

Evolution takes a long long time, it takes generations to maybe get a small change, its all by chance, so no, we have to worry about these things

That's why global warming is a serious problem! D: Imagine the cute lil penguin die because he doesn't get used to the warmer weather.

[Time]

That's why global warming is a serious problem! D: Imagine the cute lil penguin die because he doesn't get used to the warmer weather.

So...Lets drop this debate and go save the penguins? Lets do this:glasses:

[Rime]

Yeah, this is kinda confusing, I mean theoretically its impossible to get something out of nothing, and there had to have been nothing before there was anything, this is pretty much impossible to debate...Or understand for that matter.

Im still confused on what evidence there actually is that god exists, for evolution theres the fossil record, we can show small changes developing in the animal...

Evolution takes a long long time, it takes generations to maybe get a small change, its all by chance, so no, we have to worry about these things
You need quantum physics to explain most models to the big-bang. When you start referring to things in quantum physics, everything stops obeying logic and starts obeying math @_@

[Fumy]

You need quantum physics to explain most models to the big-bang. When you start referring things to quantum physics, everything stops obeying logic and starts obeying math @_@

Eww hell no D: what has math to do with God?


So...Lets drop this debate and go save the penguins? Lets do this:glasses:

You ish a hero :D Lets save em!

[Rime]

Eww hell no D: what has math to do with God?

Isaac Newton would backhand you. Math is the language in which we explain the mechanics of the world. Physics, which is the most fundamental branch in science used in higher levels like chemistry, is explained entirely in mathematical terms.

[Fumy]

Isaac Newton would backhand you. Math is the language in which we explain the mechanics of the world. Physics, which is the most fundamental branch in science, is explained entirely in mathematical terms.

Science doesn't believe in god though

[Rime]

Science doesn't believe in god though

*Newton somehow rips a quantum tunnel from the past just to backhand you*
Most scientists who have devised the very basic laws during the scientific revolution wanted to explain the world around them. As the most influential of them, Isaac Newton was not only a scientist but a devout believer in god. He followed the dictum that those who truly enjoyed the gifts god left behind would do his/her best to understand them. You see, God was his drive.

[Fumy]

*Newton somehow rips a quantum tunnel from the past just to backhand you*
Most scientists who have devised the very basic laws during the scientific revolution wanted to explain the world around them. As the most famous of the, Isaac Newton was not only a scientist, but a devout believer in god. He followed the dictum that those who truly enjoyed the gifts god left behind would do his/her best to understand them.

I didn't say scientist don't believe in god. I said science believe in god :S is a huge difference! :o

[Chillax]

I didn't say scientist don't believe in god. I said science believe in god :S is a huge difference! :o

How would science believe in God?

[Rime]

I didn't say scientist don't believe in god. I said science believe in god :S is a huge difference! :o

Science is just a language, it can't do human things like "believe."
Edit: Just to add on to this.
Most people use the bible as the basis for arguing against science. Well, here's a newsflash for all of you who blindly follow that idea: God doesn't obey the bible.

[Kyouriharu]

I believe in God, but I don't believe in all the political tit-for-tats of religion.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Science is just a language, it can't do human things like "believe."
Edit: Just to add on to this.
Most people use the bible as the basis for arguing against science. Well, here's a newsflash for all of you who blindly follow that idea: God doesn't obey the bible.

Does the bible even gives you a clear idea of what god does, seriously?

Bible = Written by human hands.


Nevertheless, a faithful, fancy piece of literature written by humans who thinks that they're closer to god than other humans, no matter how many people it can turn and convert into their faith, can never speak the truth in what's god.

Who knows? Maybe god screwed about with the people in the past alot, but decided to go watch over some other planet? Then again, there's always other religions out there. Considering the facts that there are other intelligent beings out there that we couldn't prove to exist (Pretty much like God him or herself), other religion from another part of the universe and considering how vast the universe might be...

In the end, Christans ain't the only one claiming that there's only one god...

In fact, religion is a very self-conflicting topic.



Think about it, if that's true and Religion A says that their god is REAL and he or she will be the only god available, and Religion B says the very same thing about a different god, then how would it be like?


IMO, god is just the perfect being. Not just normal perfect, he's "Perfect perfect". Being perfect in every single thing, perfection unachieveable by human hands. Someone this perfect would just exist for the sake of existing and setting a baseline for what's at the tip of the mountain, which kinda makes sense why most, if not all, gods in any religion can think up of rarely affects any parts of our lives.

Just think about an ultra normal person.

[Tibarn]

@Iyasenu Go through a really rough depression and tell me what you think of God for putting you through that, tell me how he comes to rescue you. annnnd why doesn't he let others know that your depressed. Is he there to save you when and if you commit suicide?

Why does God create serial killers, rapists, child molesters, kidnappers, thieves, terrorists. Why did he even let the creation of the gun happen?

Either God is seriously fu#@ed up and is a huge masochist (is that the right term for someone who enjoys pain?) and gets off on the suffering of others, oooor has seriously fu#@ed up ways of working.


Not hating cause if you believe in God. Good for you. If it makes you a better person, even better. But yea.... :I

EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Also, if God exists, why are there fossils and artifacts older than when the Earth supposedly started, hmmmmm? Why is there clear evidence for evolution? Why is there "proof" of the Big Bang?

Yet there is no concrete proof that God exists, except for supposed "miracles" and the beliefs of people.

Belief.

No, I didn't read through the other 6 pages of material (with 40 posts per page), so if this has been said before, oh well.

Don't even try to convince me that God exists. I'mma be an Astrophysicist, it's no use.

[Rime]

EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Also, if God exists, why are there fossils and artifacts older than when the Earth supposedly started, hmmmmm? Why is there clear evidence for evolution? Why is there "proof" of the Big Bang?

Yet there is no concrete proof that God exists, except for supposed "miracles" and the beliefs of people.

Belief.

No, I didn't read through the other 6 pages of material (with 40 posts per page), so if this has been said before, oh well.

Don't even try to convince me that God exists. I'mma be an Astrophysicist, it's no use.

I know it's rather futile to convince someone with such vehement non-beliefs to accept God, but here:

Most scientists who have devised the very basic laws during the scientific revolution wanted to explain the world around them. As the most influential of them, Isaac Newton was not only a scientist but a devout believer in god. He followed the dictum that those who truly enjoyed the gifts god left behind would do his/her best to understand them. You see, God was his drive.
Finally, a reason to quote myself.

[Tibarn]

I disagree. I don't think MOST scientists had/have God as their drive. Perhaps Newton did, but that's a single example. Some of the earlier scientists probably did, but the number today is DRASTICALLY lower.

[Rime]

I never said anything about numbers. I just wanted to disprove your assumption that the belief in science and the belief in god are mutually exclusive.

[Kazuni]

On the subject of sinning..
I am not a sinner. I do not follow any religion, and so sin is not real to me. If sin does not exist for me, I cannot commit sins. I do not believe in sins (as a strictly religious term).

And so I am not a sinner in my own eyes, perhaps only in the eyes of the religious.

[Tibarn]

I never said anything about numbers. I just wanted to disprove your assumption that the belief in science and the belief in god are mutually exclusive.

I never said that they were.

[Rime]

I never said that they were.

I got it from the part where you said it was "no use" since you were going to become an astrophysicist.

[Tibarn]

I got it from the part where you said it was "no use" since you were going to become an astrophysicist.

I just meant that my beliefs are strong enough that I pursued a field studying the big bang and its effects, so trying to prove God to me is pointless.

[Justified]

Yet there is no concrete proof that God exists, except for supposed "miracles" and the beliefs of people.

Belief.

Futurama, go!
Godfellas - Futurama Wiki, the Futurama database (http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Godfellas)

Why is the main counterargument for atheism the fact that God does not show Himself to us and do everything for us. The example has already been raised, a good parent will not pamper his/her child because the child needs to learn and grow to become a better person. If God did everything for us, we would not learn and develop. If God showed Himself to us, we would expect everything of Him. We would not build the wonders we have today or discover the technology we did, because we would just sit by and expect Him to do everything for us.
Why grow food? God will take care of me.
Why research medicine? God will heal me.
Do you think being a lazy, incapable, apathetic person is good? I don't. I wouldn't want me kids to grow up like that, and I'm sure God (if He exists) doesn't want humanity to steer down that path.

You don't even have to be religious to see that logic. Yes, logic. Whether or not you believe in a god or gods, expecting them to pamper us is illogical.

The ending quote from the episode
God-like entity : "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

[Tibarn]

Futurama, go!
Godfellas - Futurama Wiki, the Futurama database (http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Godfellas)

Why is the main counterargument for atheism the fact that God does not show Himself to us and do everything for us. The example has already been raised, a good parent will not pamper his/her child because the child needs to learn and grow to become a better person. If God did everything for us, we would not learn and develop. If God showed Himself to us, we would expect everything of Him. We would not build the wonders we have today or discover the technology we did, because we would just sit by and expect Him to do everything for us.
Why grow food? God will take care of me.
Why research medicine? God will heal me.
Do you think being a lazy, incapable, apathetic person is good? I don't. I wouldn't want me kids to grow up like that, and I'm sure God (if He exists) doesn't want humanity to steer down that path.

You don't even have to be religious to see that logic. Yes, logic. Whether or not you believe in a god or gods, expecting them to pamper us is illogical.

What about wars? What could WW2 possibly done to "make us better people"? The US vaporized the Japanese. Twice.

I'm not saying that God, if he/she/it exists, should "pamper us," but stepping in when millions of people are being killed would be a good way to show his/her/its existence, rather than spontaneously performing small "miracles" on individual people.

[Kazuni]

What about wars? What could WW2 possibly done to "make us better people"? The US vaporized the Japanese. Twice.

I'm not saying that God, if he/she/it exists, should "pamper us," but stepping in when millions of people are being killed would be a good way to show his/her/its existence, rather than spontaneously performing small "miracles" on individual people.

I support this post. Quite fully, really.

[Rime]

Futurama, go!
Godfellas - Futurama Wiki, the Futurama database (http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Godfellas)

Why is the main counterargument for atheism the fact that God does not show Himself to us and do everything for us. The example has already been raised, a good parent will not pamper his/her child because the child needs to learn and grow to become a better person. If God did everything for us, we would not learn and develop. If God showed Himself to us, we would expect everything of Him. We would not build the wonders we have today or discover the technology we did, because we would just sit by and expect Him to do everything for us.
Why grow food? God will take care of me.
Why research medicine? God will heal me.
Do you think being a lazy, incapable, apathetic person is good? I don't. I wouldn't want me kids to grow up like that, and I'm sure God (if He exists) doesn't want humanity to steer down that path.

You don't even have to be religious to see that logic. Yes, logic. Whether or not you believe in a god or gods, expecting them to pamper us is illogical.

The ending quote from the episode
God-like entity : "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

The idea that god has left us to develop on our own might simply just be the rationalization of abandoned children, assuming that there was even a father to begin with. You can argue that, without proper guidance, humans have become lost lambs. Take a moment to remind yourself of the how certain conflicts have escalated thanks to religious Judeo-Christian propaganda. Religion had a hand in the crusades and the inquisition, and the cases of martyrdom that resulted in the recent "terror" attacks. You can even say that humans have gone as far as to sully his name for the sake of their own personal agenda. If god is an almighty, all-loving being, would he want such things to occur?

Edit: Buh, I got ninja'd kind of

[Justified]

What about wars? What could WW2 possibly done to "make us better people"? The US vaporized the Japanese. Twice.

I'm not saying that God, if he/she/it exists, should "pamper us," but stepping in when millions of people are being killed would be a good way to show his/her/its existence, rather than spontaneously performing small "miracles" on individual people.

That's the thing though. Just by knowing that God exists, it would screw up our way of life.
Just think, you say it's ridiculous for us to pray to God for assistance in times of need. This is without solid proof that He exists. If we know for certain that He does, just think how much more we would rely on him.

Yes, wars are an extremely terrible thing, but you can't say nothing has come of them. Wars drive science, even if it's for a bad purpose, they push us to develop even greater technology. Through the vaporization of Japan, we came to realize how terrible nuclear weaponry is. Our understanding of these things is constantly growing.
Not saying that the wars are justified or that there's more better than good. Just that we are taking from them.
Wars today are nothing like they were in the past. Today, one soldier dies and its all over the news. The people get in an uproar and blame the government for not properly protecting us. One soldier. In the past, hundred and hundreds of people would die just in one battle, and yet those still raged on for years. Not with small territorial captures here and there, but with real bloodshed. It's clear that we're at least somewhat better than we were before.

[Tibarn]

That's the thing though. Just by knowing that God exists, it would screw up our way of life.
Just think, you say it's ridiculous for us to pray to God for assistance in times of need. This is without solid proof that He exists. If we know for certain that He does, just think how much more we would rely on him.

Yes, wars are an extremely terrible thing, but you can't say nothing has come of them. Wars drive science, even if it's for a bad purpose, they push us to develop even greater technology. Through the vaporization of Japan, we came to realize how terrible nuclear weaponry is. Our understanding of these things is constantly growing.
Not saying that the wars are justified or that there's more better than good. Just that we are taking from them.
Wars today are nothing like they were in the past. Today, one soldier dies and its all over the news. The people get in an uproar and blame the government for not properly protecting us. One soldier. In the past, hundred and hundreds of people would die just in one battle, and yet those still raged on for years. Not with small territorial captures here and there, but with real bloodshed. It's clear that we're at least somewhat better than we were before.

We're just more advanced with better media, not necessarily due to war.

[Rime]

That's the thing though. Just by knowing that God exists, it would screw up our way of life.
Just think, you say it's ridiculous for us to pray to God for assistance in times of need. This is without solid proof that He exists. If we know for certain that He does, just think how much more we would rely on him.

Yes, wars are an extremely terrible thing, but you can't say nothing has come of them. Wars drive science, even if it's for a bad purpose, they push us to develop even greater technology. Through the vaporization of Japan, we came to realize how terrible nuclear weaponry is. Our understanding of these things is constantly growing.
Not saying that the wars are justified or that there's more better than good. Just that we are taking from them.
Wars today are nothing like they were in the past. Today, one soldier dies and its all over the news. The people get in an uproar and blame the government for not properly protecting us. One soldier. In the past, hundred and hundreds of people would die just in one battle, and yet those still raged on for years. Not with small territorial captures here and there, but with real bloodshed. It's clear that we're at least somewhat better than we were before.

Historically speaking, there has never been a time in which development of technology occurs more slowly in times of war than in times of peace (see Cold War). Did God plan for us prosper for the sake of the subjugation of our enemies, or is this the human design for progress?

[Justified]

Historically speaking, there has never been a time in which development of technology occurs more slowly in times of war than in times of peace (see Cold War). Did God plan for us prosper for the sake of the subjugation of our enemies, or is this the human design for progress?

Competition is usually a good thing. In economy, competition forces sellers to keep their prices lower, or make their product better. A monopoly would be able to charge whatever they want for whatever crap they sell.
It's the same for technology. The space race between the US and Russia pushed research in Physics and Astrology to see who can get the first man into outer space and on the moon and whatnot.
It's just a trait of humans. We are competitive people. Our competitiveness greatly motivates us in anything we do which (unfortunately) includes the power to kill in war. Although, there are friendly forms of competition that don't involve killing or crushing as the main goal, such as sports, video games, talent, music, art, etc. Not all of it is bad.

[Phunkie]

Competition is usually a good thing. In economy, competition forces sellers to keep their prices lower, or make their product better. A monopoly would be able to charge whatever they want for whatever crap they sell.
It's the same for technology. The space race between the US and Russia pushed research in Physics and Astrology to see who can get the first man into outer space and on the moon and whatnot..

Astronomy.

xD

But I agree with you.

[Juno]

There seem to be two questions popping up more frequently than the rest. Since people seem unlikely to read links I'll use quotes.

1.) How can a loving God send people to hell?


I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside.

All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood...


Jesus repeatedly issued warnings that if we turn away from God in this life, we will be alienated from God eternally.

And yet, although "the wages of sin is death," Paul also says that "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). While breath remains, it is never too late to turn to God in repentance, and when we ask for forgiveness, God eagerly grants it.


We may rest assured that no one will suffer in hell who could by any means have been won to Christ in this life. God leaves no stone unturned to rescue all who would respond to the convicting and wooing of the Holy Spirit.

As for the fate of [the damned] being eternal, it could not be otherwise. Death is not the cessation of existence but the continuation of the eternal being with which God lovingly endowed man--but now in painful separation from God and all else in utter darkness and loneliness.


The Bible says that God prepared hell for the devil and his demonic cohorts (Matthew 25:41), that He is "...not wishing for any [person] to perish but for all to come to repentance." (II Peter 3:9), and that He has done everything possible to save us from that terrible, terrible place. Yet in the end God will not violate or overrule the deliberate choice of those who consciously and willfully turn away from Him.

If that doesn't clear things up, which I doubt it will, I hope it will at least allow for more specific inquiries.


2.) How can a loving God not interfere when we do mean things to one another?

There are basically two types of human suffering. That which occurs from the natural order of the earth such as natural disasters or gravity being a jerk and the self-inflicted human hurting human kind. It is important to realize that from an eternal viewpoint our lives after death are much more significant than before. Therefore, the worst of our suffering has been addressed with the extended hand of forgiveness.

The above quotes touch on the latter along with the earlier predictions that this thread would eventually hinge on free will. Humans are given the freedom to act as they please which often results in consequences for other humans. While he may step in when asked such as parting the Red Sea for Moses or granting Samson the strength for his last stand he's not going to babysit us policing our actions.

Again, I don't expect this to fully answer said questions...just to help narrow them down a bit.

[Chillax]

My main beef with God is that he was willing to provide irrefutable proofs of his existence throughout the various time periods covered in the Bible, but he does not do so in the present. You're probably going to say, "you lack faith, that's why you can't see these miracles." Elijah challenged the followers of Baal to prove that Baal existed. Both groups prepared sacrifices and prayed to their own gods to burn those sacrifices, and God sent down a rain of fire to vaporize the sacrifice, which was even covered in water. I don't know if you can cast Firaga or if you can cure cancer instantanously, but I sure would have a stronger belief in God if he did miracles like that today.

[Chockeh]

I live in a catholic family and all, so I can pretty much guess what a catholic thinks. Though history lessons kinda made me a Atheist.
*Going to eventually read every post so I don't repeat what everyone is saying*.

[Juno]

My main beef with God is that he was willing to provide irrefutable proofs of his existence throughout the various time periods covered in the Bible, but he does not do so in the present. You're probably going to say, "you lack faith, that's why you can't see these miracles." Elijah challenged the followers of Baal to prove that Baal existed. Both groups prepared sacrifices and prayed to their own gods to burn those sacrifices, and God sent down a rain of fire to vaporize the sacrifice, which was even covered in water. I don't know if you can cast Firaga or if you can cure cancer instantanously, but I sure would have a stronger belief in God if he did miracles like that today.

At that time, with the methods of dispersing information and general lack of understanding of how things worked such displays didn't pass as irrefutable proof. It was often very convincing to the people who were right there but interestingly enough it didn't permeate much further.

[Chillax]

The main question is, why then, not now? Why were those people worthy enough to be shown pretty amazing miracles while we aren't treated to the same thing?

[Kazuni]

The main question is, why then, not now? Why were those people worthy enough to be shown pretty amazing miracles while we aren't treated to the same thing?

What they considered miracles was different from what we consider miracles.

And so our view of religion should change to match, imo.

[Raj]

I see it as 1 of 4 different possibilities.

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists, but doesn't act. (That's in its own way, sort of evil.)
3. God exists, but has no power. (Not all powerful as everyone says.)
4. God exists, and has power and acts, but it is in a "mysterious way" that no one can understand. (Apparently affects believers and non-believers.)

2/3 is what my religon says.
I wanan convert to a religon close to mine. o.o Makes more sense.

[Rime]

At that time, with the methods of dispersing information and general lack of understanding of how things worked such displays didn't pass as irrefutable proof. It was often very convincing to the people who were right there but interestingly enough it didn't permeate much further.

As science has broken down phenomena to worldly mechanics, societies that embrace scientific rationalization have become more and more secularized. In ancient days a burning bush might have been an otherworldly message and a fearsome lightning storm could have been interpreted as heavenly judgment. Now that we have technology from science, they're merely caused by changes in the weather.

Today, there is clearly a negative correlation between a country's level of religious belief and it's level of technology (i.e. higher values in one area mean lower values in the other). Do you think that the religions correlating to lack of technology are miss-understandings of phenomena? Personally, I'd say that they are.

[Chillax]

What they considered miracles was different from what we consider miracles.

And so our view of religion should change to match, imo.

But God is omnipotent; there are so many different miracles He could perform to make us believe. He has shown that He isn't averse to showing miracles to prove He exists, so the question still stands. Many are still basing morality on the Bible, a book several millenia old, so why do we need to change our views?

[Justified]

But God is omnipotent; there are so many different miracles He could perform to make us believe. He has shown that He isn't averse to showing miracles to prove He exists, so the question still stands. Many are still basing morality on the Bible, a book several millenia old, so why do we need to change our views?

Simpsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_vs._Lisa_and_the_8th_Commandment) episode go!
http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/homervslisaandthe8thcommandment1_thumb.png?w=512&h=384

If you remember that episode, Lisa learns about the ten commandments while Homer pirates cable. There's a short scene where Moses comes to deliver his message while incarnations of the cast walk around committing sins as if it were nothing.

The question is, based on what I was saying before, do you think that absolute proof of his existence would make humanity better?
Morals are often attributed to religion because God supported these in a time when there was very little of it. Sure, we aren't perfect today, but I don't think we're in the same state as the past. Perfection isn't really possible (reinsert the Free Will and the Light/Dark Arguments here).

There's a difference between guiding and forcing. In the past, His actions were to direct us on the right path, while today an action may instead force us be a certain way.
Also, based on our logic (that we shouldn't believe in God because He hasn't done any miracles for us) the future people won't believe in God either. God would have to keep on making more and more miracles.
Should God have to continuously perform miracles just for Humanity to believe in Him?



What they considered miracles was different from what we consider miracles.

And so our view of religion should change to match, imo.

Many are still basing morality on the Bible, a book several millenia old, so why do we need to change our views?

What and how do both of you mean by changing views?

[Chillax]

Simpsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_vs._Lisa_and_the_8th_Commandment) episode go!
http://deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/homervslisaandthe8thcommandment1_thumb.png?w=512&h=384

If you remember that episode, Lisa learns about the ten commandments while Homer pirates cable. There's a short scene where Moses comes to deliver his message while incarnations of the cast walk around committing sins as if it were nothing.

The question is, based on what I was saying before, do you think that absolute proof of his existence would make humanity better?
Morals are often attributed to religion because God supported these in a time when there was very little of it. Sure, we aren't perfect today, but I don't think we're in the same state as the past. Perfection isn't really possible (reinsert the Free Will and the Light/Dark Arguments here).

There's a difference between guiding and forcing. In the past, His actions were to direct us on the right path, while today an action may instead force us be a certain way.
Also, based on our logic (that we shouldn't believe in God because He hasn't done any miracles for us) the future people won't believe in God either. God would have to keep on making more and more miracles.
Should God have to continuously perform miracles just for Humanity to believe in Him?





What and how do both of you mean by changing views?

How is guiding the people of yesteryears on the right path any different from doing so in the present?

Kazuni probably means changing our view of no proof, no God.

[Justified]

How is guiding the people of yesteryears on the right path any different from doing so in the present?

Kazuni probably means changing our view of no proof, no God.

We more or less are on the right path already, even if we stray from it now and then.
If some extremists go and do stupid things like crash airplanes into towers, most of us know it's bad and will react to it. We get back on the path by ourselves, we don't need God to nudge us anymore. And (before somebody brings in the SSM debate), we aren't past that obstacle yet so you can't say we aren't guiding ourselves. As said, more people including the religious are warming up to the idea.

[Chillax]

We more or less are on the right path already, even if we stray from it now and then.
If some extremists go and do stupid things like crash airplanes into towers, most of us know it's bad and will react to it. We get back on the path by ourselves, we don't need God to nudge us anymore. And (before somebody brings in the SSM debate), we aren't past that obstacle yet so you can't say we aren't guiding ourselves. As said, more people including the religious are warming up to the idea.

The purpose of these miracles was to convert people to the side of God, but what you're referring to is human conscience. It seems that good people that don't believe in God still go to hell, so how are we on the right path?

[Justified]

The purpose of these miracles was to convert people to the side of God, but what you're referring to is human conscience. It seems that good people that don't believe in God still go to hell, so how are we on the right path?

So then you're again saying that God should do things for us. "Only believers go to Heaven, so He should make us believe."
How is that different from "Only those who don't sin go to Heaven, so He should make sure we don't sin."
It all lies in how much you think He should do for us.

Personally, I think that less guidance from Him promotes more spiritual/soul development. As I've said before, I don't believe that any action would make us better, if anything it may make us worse or limit our freedom. - coming from an agnostic theist.

[Chillax]

So then you're again saying that God should do things for us. "Only believers go to Heaven, so He should make us believe."
How is that different from "Only those who don't sin go to Heaven, so He should make sure we don't sin."
It all lies in how much you think He should do for us.

Personally, I think that less guidance from Him promotes more spiritual/soul development. As I've said before, I don't believe that any action would make us better, if anything it may make us worse or limit our freedom. - coming from an agnostic theist.

I just want to know why God is working on a double standard by doing something before and not now. Because He showed people miracles, they believed; hence many of the Christian predecessors. Would Jesus have had attracted as many followers if he did not travel across the land performing miracles?

The number of Christians in the world is quickly becoming outnumbered by the number of those in other religions. Wouldn't God view this as alarming? Unless you can get into heaven just by being an upright person, then we can all get along.

[Juno]

The main question is, why then, not now? Why were those people worthy enough to be shown pretty amazing miracles while we aren't treated to the same thing?

What I'm saying is those weren't exactly amazing back in the day. People would attribute it to all manner of things since they didn't know that such an event was really impossible. Even when they realized it, it was attributed to any number of gods. In addition, they were all contained. Even the miracles that left little room for doubt weren't heard around the world for a while and even then there was no video to prove it. There was never a miracle that gave the whole world no choice but to believe save maybe the flood...but...lol


As science has broken down phenomena to worldly mechanics, societies that embrace scientific rationalization have become more and more secularized. In ancient days a burning bush might have been an otherworldly message and a fearsome lightning storm could have been interpreted as heavenly judgment. Now that we have technology from science, they're merely caused by changes in the weather.

Today, there is clearly a negative correlation between a country's level of religious belief and it's level of technology (i.e. higher values in one area mean lower values in the other). Do you think that the religions correlating to lack of technology are miss-understandings of phenomena? Personally, I'd say that they are.

I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying because I can't quite place the prompt for this response. I think we're saying roughly the same thing.

I would agree that areas more focused on religion tend to be less focused on technology. There are a myriad of reasons for this ranging from them being content with their life as is to power-hungry people wielding religion as a tool trying to keep their subjects in ignorance. I do not think that the two have to conversely exist though and I sincerely wish it hadn't worked out that way in the past.

[Chillax]

What I'm saying is those weren't exactly amazing back in the day. People would attribute it to all manner of things since they didn't know that such an event was really impossible. Even when they realized it, it was attributed to any number of gods. In addition, they were all contained. Even the miracles that left little room for doubt weren't heard around the world for a while and even then there was no video to prove it. There was never a miracle that gave the whole world no choice but to believe save maybe the flood...but...lol

How amazing it was back then seems like a pretty relative statement since we don't know their mindset from back then, though I'm pretty sure people were either awed or scared ****less by the things He did because they didn't know what was going on. If you have a prophet perform an unexplainable miracle and saying that so-and-so miracle is a work of God, I'd believe that back then, that it was the equivalent of a fact. The Bible seems to state that these people were almost instantly converted, except for the haters. Even then, God was even willing to work his powers on some haters, like Saul, who was forced to believe after losing his sight.

Well, word of these miracles didn't spread much farther than the areas near Europe and the Middle East because there were large geographic barriers. Aside from Jesus, I don't think any of the other people spreading the word of God were able to walk on water or fly across mountains, although word of mouth was a pretty big thing back then. Jesus's arrival to towns were usually anticipated hours or days in advance.

[Rime]

I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying because I can't quite place the prompt for this response. I think we're saying roughly the same thing.
.
I originally planned to type a more descriptive response, but I decided to condense it down since I was sleepy and lazy. What I was leading into was a question of perceptions, eventually leading into a question of the validity of the perception of people back in early times. From the general standpoint of a modern day scientist, yesterdays prophets would be today's schizophrenics. Couldn't it be said that certain biblical accounts may have been recorded by people who would've been today's schizophrenics because, back then, their stories were just crazy enough to be true?

Well, just from my understanding of the spread of the religion, most people didn't accept it, but it was wide spread in small groups. It bloomed once the Roman Empire stabilized the religion in 380 AD, which is well after any of the original accounts. Maybe time and the religion's endurance made it all the accounts more believable.

[Juno]

How amazing it was back then seems like a pretty relative statement since we don't know their mindset from back then, though I'm pretty sure people were either awed or scared ****less by the things He did because they didn't know what was going on. If you have a prophet perform an unexplainable miracle and saying that so-and-so miracle is a work of God, I'd believe that back then, that it was the equivalent of a fact. The Bible seems to state that these people were almost instantly converted, except for the haters. Even then, God was even willing to work his powers on some haters, like Saul, who was forced to believe after losing his sight.

Imagine if something irrefutable happened today~ It wouldn't just be the immediate crowd that saw it but likely the whole world. Or perhaps what if such things are happening but no one believes them without solid proof. It's just not the same playing ground.

In the case of Saul he did kind of ninja him into the faith, you're right. Given Saul's (Paul, that is) later doings I can see why he might have made an exception there.

In Samuel 3:1 it says ' ...In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions.' This suggests that there are times when we're not going to see many displays of power.


Well, word of these miracles didn't spread much farther than the areas near Europe and the Middle East because there were large geographic barriers. Aside from Jesus, I don't think any of the other people spreading the word of God were able to walk on water or fly across mountains, although word of mouth was a pretty big thing back then. Jesus's arrival to towns were usually anticipated hours or days in advance.

That's part of the point I'm trying to make. Nowadays it'd be everywhere, instantly, and everyone can 'fly over mountains' and traverse water. Either that or it'd be written off with some sort of natural explanation. Word of mouth is slower and not as convincing as a video taken on a cell phone.


I originally planned to type a more descriptive response, but I decided to condense it down since I was sleepy and lazy. What I was leading into was a question of perceptions, eventually leading into a question of the validity of the perception of people back in early times. From the general standpoint of a modern day scientist, yesterdays prophets would be today's schizophrenics. Couldn't it be said that certain biblical accounts may have been recorded by people who would've been today's schizophrenics because, back then, their stories were just crazy enough to be true?

Precisely. Though I opt to believe them in their case due to them all seeing the same people doing the same things. Barring some sort of schizophrenic overmind it wouldn't add up.


Well, just from my understanding of the spread of the religion, most people didn't accept it, but it was wide spread in small groups. It bloomed once the Roman Empire stabilized the religion in 380 AD, which is well after any of the original accounts. Maybe time and the religion's endurance made it all the accounts more believable.

Which is how it was intended to work out I think. If God wanted to give people no choice but to believe he probably would have given them no choice...literally.

[Chillax]

Imagine if something irrefutable happened today~ It wouldn't just be the immediate crowd that saw it but likely the whole world. Or perhaps what if such things are happening but no one believes them without solid proof. It's just not the same playing ground. In Samuel 3:1 it says ' ...In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions.' This suggests that there are times when we're not going to see many displays of power.

I just don't see why God can't arrange something today of similar magnitude to what a rain of fire was to people back then, and I don't know why He decided to favor one period over the other. Most miracles were performed with maybe a few century's gaps in between. It has been many centuries since the Dark Ages in Europe ended, and maybe I'm just ignorant, but I haven't heard of any writings between then and now about miraculous happenings that could not be explained without divine intervention. I just feel that now would be a good time for God to do something more overt than what He has been doing now. Elijah carefully set the parameters for the miracle so the followers of Baal would clearly know which god was stronger, so couldn't we have scientists set a similar experiment that only God could set into motion?


That's part of the point I'm trying to make. Nowadays it'd be everywhere, instantly, and everyone can 'fly over mountains' and traverse water. Either that or it'd be written off with some sort of natural explanation. Word of mouth is slower and not as convincing as a video taken on a cell phone.

But why does God need to stick to the same miracles, since He is omnipotent? At the very least, a miracle clearly orchestrated by God would set the stage for more discussion in His favor, since modern communications would facilitate the spread of that occurrence throughout the world. I don't feel that it would be just to sentence a person to eternal damnation until that happens, but that's just my opinion.

[Time]

The number of Christians in the world is quickly becoming outnumbered by the number of those in other religions. Wouldn't God view this as alarming? Unless you can get into heaven just by being an upright person, then we can all get along.

If Heaven exists, I sure hope that this is the case.....

[Juno]

But why does God need to stick to the same miracles, since He is omnipotent? At the very least, a miracle clearly orchestrated by God would set the stage for more discussion in His favor, since modern communications would facilitate the spread of that occurrence throughout the world. I don't feel that it would be just to sentence a person to eternal damnation until that happens, but that's just my opinion.

For fear of going in circles, I'll try to condense a bit.

God is not going to prove his existence to you. If there was irrefutable proof [that is to say, any proof] of his existence there wouldn't really be a choice to follow or not to. It'd be a simple matter of eternal suffering or eternal bliss. Kind of a no-brainer.

Though, a sort of counter-argument to my self...that's the setting of the garden of Eden. To be fair, neither of those two had knowledge of hell or knew much about death I presume.

[Chillax]

I thought God was trying to prove his existence to the people he showed miracles to?

Eh. I suppose I'll just pose this question to any theologians I happen to meet in rl. Maybe I'll find what I was looking for.

[Rime]

Precisely. Though I opt to believe them in their case due to them all seeing the same people doing the same things. Barring some sort of schizophrenic overmind it wouldn't add up.

It's really hard to imagine the original context in which these people wrote the bible though. Guess the most definitive answer is that there is no clear answer.


Which is how it was intended to work out I think. If God wanted to give people no choice but to believe he probably would have given them no choice...literally.

To me, belief through fear seems very halfhearted. It doesn't imply the wanting to obey religion, but rather the fear of not obeying it. I can only imagine what happens when the fear factor is gone. In the Roman's case, their repeated subjugation and absorption of others into their own nation caused fissures that ultimately led the nation to be destroyed from within when the cracks started to show.

[Crimmy]

Plenty of interesting viewpoints, I'm surprised it's been kept so civil.

I am a Christian and not because I was raised as one either. I've been through a lot of bull in my child/teenage life: psychological and sexual abuse, being nearly poor as dirt, having no friends and being bullied constantly through to high school due to being nearly poor as dirt, and having the only things that I could talk to, my pets (parakeets and a Rottweiler, Shana), die due to old age or sickness because we have no vets here.

I don't put this info here because I want sympathy or any consolation, but because from a neutral standpoint, one could say that "God was not good to me."

But none of this is the work of God, it is due to a fallen world. Yet you could say "it's God's fault the world is fallen." No, it is because Adam and Eve, the first two humans, forsake God and ate of the forbidden fruit. "But God gave them free will so of course they'd pick it." Would you have preferred to be mindless servants with no freedom, like ants? I'm not exactly sure why God put the tree of evil in the garden but since there was a tree of life there also, I guess that makes sense, but it seemed Adam and Eve followed the rule until Satan, as a serpent, came in and tempted them.

I believe we live in a fallen world. I don't believe death is natural, nor sicknesses or poverty. If you experience the effects of death in multiple ways, especially human deaths, it's easy to see how unnatural it really is. Although I'm sure it's easy to say "death is natural" if you're sitting behind a tv watching lions tear up a zebra. I honestly don't believe God made diseases and poverty to torment the poor puny humans either. He even went around curing them while in human form. I don't believe God made those things happen to me but instead consoled me through them.

I believe life is like a race. When something trips you up, you don't sit there and complain about how God put that rock there, instead you pick yourself up and keep going. It's like the saying goes: if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. I would much rather live in a world where I had to work to become stronger and deal with the evils yet still have a loving father, a God, to lean on. This is why I believe in God, not out of fear of hell or because I was raised to believe in him, but because I know He exists and has effected my life personally.

I dunno, the idea of living in a world where God does everything for you and hand-feeds you seems repulsive to me. I like my freedom, or "free will", thanks.

[Criticalxhit]

God is not going to prove his existence to you. If there was irrefutable proof [that is to say, any proof] of his existence there wouldn't really be a choice to follow or not to. It'd be a simple matter of eternal suffering or eternal bliss. Kind of a no-brainer.

You can't have it both ways. You don't believe in God, it's your choice, but don't expect to find yourself in heaven after death just for being "good".

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Plenty of interesting viewpoints, I'm surprised it's been kept so civil.

I am a Christian and not because I was raised as one either. I've been through a lot of bull in my child/teenage life: psychological and sexual abuse, being nearly poor as dirt, having no friends and being bullied constantly through to high school due to being nearly poor as dirt, and having the only things that I could talk to, my pets (parakeets and a Rottweiler, Shana), die due to old age or sickness because we have no vets here.

I don't put this info here because I want sympathy or any consolation, but because from a neutral standpoint, one could say that "God was not good to me."

But none of this is the work of God, it is due to a fallen world. Yet you could say "it's God's fault the world is fallen." No, it is because Adam and Eve, the first two humans, forsake God and ate of the forbidden fruit. "But God gave them free will so of course they'd pick it." Would you have preferred to be mindless servants with no freedom, like ants? I'm not exactly sure why God put the tree of evil in the garden but since there was a tree of life there also, I guess that makes sense, but it seemed Adam and Eve followed the rule until Satan, as a serpent, came in and tempted them.

I believe we live in a fallen world. I don't believe death is natural, nor sicknesses or poverty. If you experience the effects of death in multiple ways, especially human deaths, it's easy to see how unnatural it really is. Although I'm sure it's easy to say "death is natural" if you're sitting behind a tv watching lions tear up a zebra. I honestly don't believe God made diseases and poverty to torment the poor puny humans either. He even went around curing them while in human form. I don't believe God made those things happen to me but instead consoled me through them.

I believe life is like a race. When something trips you up, you don't sit there and complain about how God put that rock there, instead you pick yourself up and keep going. It's like the saying goes: if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. I would much rather live in a world where I had to work to become stronger and deal with the evils yet still have a loving father, a God, to lean on. This is why I believe in God, not out of fear of hell or because I was raised to believe in him, but because I know He exists and has effected my life personally.

I dunno, the idea of living in a world where God does everything for you and hand-feeds you seems repulsive to me. I like my freedom, or "free will", thanks.

Death is natural.

Without it, the world would be overpopulated... And sex would be banned.

And since you can't die, you'll forever be forced to suffer the pains of living. Diseases, torture, pain, whatever physical aliments that would happen to you will last as an eternal torture.


I hope you would love it when you can live forever.



Everything is beautiful in it's own way. If you couldn't see it, I doubt you should call this world a fallen world for no proper reason. It's so delicately balanced, yet harsh in such a way for the cycle to exist.

[Jean]

Based off the nature of most religious believers, I am disgusted with the nature of the people. Some of the things involved in a religions ideals are in fact very ethical and virtuous, yet... as Ghandi said (Fail paraphrase comin' up!):

"I like your Christ. He seemed like a great man. Although, I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ."
That aside; Science can explain a great deal of things, but... there are just some things it'll never be able to explain. They can go on and on about how morals and ethics in people are electrical impulses and are based off social inflictions from our societies, but there are some things that people do that go against their very nature of existing, such as giving themselves in the name of love for somebody they care for, or even a complete stranger (Very rare, but it's happened. Look it up. Also, in other words, sacrificing themselves.)

[Rime]

Based off the nature of most religious believers, I am disgusted with the nature of the people. Some of the things involved in a religions ideals are in fact very ethical and virtuous, yet... as Ghandi said (Fail paraphrase comin' up!):

"I like your Christ. He seemed like a great man. Although, I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ."

The culprit is ignorance and groupthink on a grand scale. I think we've already established how easy it is to skew religion for the benefit of the few.


That aside; Science can explain a great deal of things, but... there are just some things it'll never be able to explain. They can go on and on about how morals and ethics in people are electrical impulses and are based off social inflictions from our societies, but there are some things that people do that go against their very nature of existing, such as giving themselves in the name of love for somebody they care for, or even a complete stranger (Very rare, but it's happened. Look it up. Also, in other words, sacrificing themselves.)

Err even psychologist don't go as far as to relate specific thoughts to electrical impulses in the brain; the field is just too young and undeveloped for that form of thought. It was only less than a hundred or so years ago that scientist truly began to correlate behavior and emotion with brain activity, and they're still not completely sure with how the brain works today because of the its complexity. But that only implies that we have yet to figure it out, not that we'll never be able to figure it out. I'd explain a list of the areas of the brain that directly relate to cognition and even emotions, but it would probably be better if you received some actual classroom instruction on it. No offense or anything, but it's a difficult subject in itself and reading random articles online nowadays tends to spawn pseudo-scientific knowledge.

[Crimmy]

Death is natural.

Without it, the world would be overpopulated... And sex would be banned.

And since you can't die, you'll forever be forced to suffer the pains of living. Diseases, torture, pain, whatever physical aliments that would happen to you will last as an eternal torture.

I hope you would love it when you can live forever.

Everything is beautiful in it's own way. If you couldn't see it, I doubt you should call this world a fallen world for no proper reason. It's so delicately balanced, yet harsh in such a way for the cycle to exist.

There would be no need for death if the world was not fallen. There would be no diseases nor ailments and overpopulation would not be an issue, why am I repeating myself just because someone did not read my post in its entirety and missed many of my points. I did not say "there should be no death" either but that it is not natural and a result of the fallen world. I really don't appreciate it when someone tries to put words in my mouth.

Also, I thought I'd make myself clear in that I am disgusted with the current church of today and am fully aware of how "christians" act. There are also many many denominations of Christianity and a lot of fighting goes on in between them not just between Christians and non-Christians. I have withdrawn myself from churches because of the corruptness and the so-called "christians" many times. I see what you guys see and am usually on the same ground of opinion, especially when it comes to homosexuals. But do realize that these people are NOT following Christianity's #1 rule: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." They're just people trying to be righteous by their works because they believe that God's got their back. The reality is that God should be in front of them not behind them. Blame the people who twist the religion to conform to what they believe, not the religion itself.

[Phunkie]

Death is completely natural.

Just like some elements decay after long periods of time.

Nothing lasts forever.

Who is anyone to say that this world is "fallen" because it is ridden with death and diseases and illnesses? That's to say that the world is fallen because it is not perfect.

Death is a natural decay of life. Just like everything that is thrown upwards must fall down at some point due to the effects of gravity. We are born, we die.

It's not the work of God.

[Zeo]

I don't believe in god or Jesus, and I never will.

I myself is a atheist, and it pisses me off when people tried to talk to me about religion.

I had dad's side of family, mostly my dad and my grandma, and they tried to pressure me into following their own religion which make me do not want to believe in the god/Jesus even more.

It also pisses me off that if people, such as your dad or grandma asked me to go to Church, I replied with a "no." then they went psycho and was all like "WHY NOT?!?!?!?!?11?!" to me. :l

I also had two more, other reasons; lot of people who believed in religions, they often would say how "god will save all of us humans from danger no matter what" But we're already in danger, lot of storms, earthquake, wars, and more. Guess what? God didn't even do anything to us.

And other reason, people with odd sexual orientations, like me.. (I'm gay)

They said god would accept everyone who they're, but in the bible, they were against the homosexual and I had several idiots who went and telling me "OMG You're gay, you must go straight or you'll go to hell!" which really irks me. x:

That is how I felt about the gods, Jesus, and religion. I don't.. even like to hang out with friends if they're religion because I had have many bad experiences about it in past. I don't want to be offensive.. but I think religion is just a way for people to not worry about death, and danger. |;

EDITTED:: I'm not sure if anyone already said this, but most of the wars, is often caused by religion, lol.

[Crimmy]

I think I'm pretty much done with this thread, I don't even think this is really a debate or belief thread, just a religion bashing thread really. Bash the extremists who take religion and disfigure it to conform to their ways, not the religion itself you know nothing about. If you want to complain about extremists bashing you then don't do the same thing they're doing. You complain about them not accepting you yet you don't accept people who have different beliefs than you either. I'm not pushing my beliefs on you, I'm just stating them. If you want to believe everything that exists came from rock over billions of years according to the evolutionary theory, you won't see me bashing you.


And other reason, people with odd sexual orientations, like me.. (I'm gay)

They said god would accept everyone who they're, but in the bible, they were against the homosexual and I had several idiots who went and telling me "OMG You're gay, you must go straight or you'll go to hell!" which really irks me. x:

This is one of biggest issues with extremists, the inability to accept people just because they're different so instead they twist the scriptures to, again, conform to their ways. I hate it just as much as you people.

Bible never says anything about homosexuality except for the commandments "do not lie with a man like you would a woman" to the Jewish people to keep them separate from the other cultures at that time. This was similar to the "do not eat pork" and "don't touch a woman while she's on her period" and many speculate these rules were just put in for general cleanliness at that time. Later on, these rules were removed and many animals were "made clean" for them to eat. If someone tries to use this rule against you then ask them if they eat pork or shave their beard or cut their hair. If so, then they're total hypocrites.

Peter's talk about "homosexuals" in the NT was actually about the orgies in the pagan temples not homosexuality itself.

God himself says why Sodom was destroyed: "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."

No mention of homosexuality. At all. None. This is why I say blame the extremists because the religion itself is not at fault. If you're gay, that's perfectly fine! According to the Bible itself, there's no problem! I have no issue with gay people at all and have had gay friends. If you got "rid of religion", the extremists would just use something else to twist. Just like they're doing now with keeping homosexuals from marrying with their "marriage was meant for a woman and a man".