how much INT do you need to break even come G13?

[sakraycore]

Like to not lose any damage or gain any damage for bolt spells and without any G13 mastery skills?

[Tatsigi]

for bolt spells you need maybe 10int for them to do the damage they do now o3o since they aren't affected, but for adv(int) magic you need like 420-440int for current damage.

[sakraycore]

so if you had like 200+ INT, how much damage would you gain for your bolt spells?

[Cynic]

Buh. That means I need 200+ int by then.. eh.
Most mages are going to need at-least another 100 or so, I gather. Assuming they aren't all maxed out on +int skills and such.
Poor beginner mages, too.

[Pierce]

so if you had like 200+ INT, how much damage would you gain for your bolt spells?
10.

[sakraycore]

10.

Wow that's a pitiful amount. I heard that come G13 people can do over 300+ per lightning bolt. How do they achieve that?

[Zyrus]

200 int = 10% more not flat 10.

I do 180-220 now non critical lightening bolts. I have over 600 int. I expect in g13 when I capp me int skills (should be around 800 int with all the skills plus some from enchants/titles) I should easily do that 300 non crit.

20 int = 1% damage bonus.

[Pierce]

200 int = 10% more not flat 10.

I do 180-220 now non critical lightening bolts. I have over 600 int. I expect in g13 when I capp me int skills (should be around 800 int with all the skills plus some from enchants/titles) I should easily do that 300 non crit.

20 int = 1% damage bonus.

Can you quote anywhere other than the wiki where it says it will add a percentage rather than points?

Also, can you explain where does this damage come from? I read in Trigger's guide that Magic Mastery adds 1% damage per rank, but I think that was a mistake, and he meant Magic Balance. Wonder if this is true, 'cause current int formula, with your Int, yields 194ish damage:

2*log(600)^3=43

150+43=194

??

I read somewhere else that in G9 or G10 damage was improved by 10%.

Overall damage would yield 213 damage (194*1.1).

Even then, 220 is not possible.

Edit:

And in G13, max Lightning bolt damage would be 252 (150*1.4*1.2), using the % formula and Lightning Magic Mastery. Although a crit would hit 630 if crits compounds with Int damage OR 510~522 if it doesn't.

[Zyrus]

No I can't quote it anywhere excepting what players of KR/JP have told me.

This guy is the best mage I know from overseas. I forget when he told me about the formula difference but I am pretty sure he did.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T0QZguuHqg

[sakraycore]

how do you get your pet to charge firebolt but not throw it? Is there an AI for it?

Edit: just watched the video over more carefully and it HAS to be an AI. I've wanted this AI for awhile, anyone have it? It's like the perfect archery/magic support

[Chinaboy475]

yeah i want it too!

[Zyrus]

its just a bolt counter. Firebolt counter plus some smart canceling or something. He uses it all the time.

[sakraycore]

its just a bolt counter. Firebolt counter plus some smart canceling or something. He uses it all the time.

ohh can i have that AI please?

@ Archibald:

Is it the firebolt counter AI here?
http://oracle-mabinogi.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=348687&TabID=2919562&ForumID=1654835&TopicID=8861549

[Zack]

Heres a simple one I just made. All you have to do is load a skill and your pet will charge firebolt. It wont attack with you. Also, when you get your pet to attack the monster, it wont continue until you make it.



<rules>
<rule name="test">
<conditions/>
<pattern>
<param_decl/>
<sequence>
<cmd name="stack_skill" stack_magic="firebolt" charge="1"/>
</sequence>
</pattern>
<event name="master_skill_prepare" event_skill="all"/>
</rule>
</rules>

Wont space out for some reason. But you can probably just read it if it wont work. It's two steps, not very hard.

[sakraycore]

Hey Zackeh it's a nice AI.

Can you make it so that after I tell the AI to throw the firebolt to come all the way back to me before charging a firebolt?
Also the pet needs to follow me after it's charged up firebolt.
Also before charging the firebolt for the first time, it should first come to where I'm located.

[Zack]

Hey Zackeh it's a nice AI.

Can you make it so that after I tell the AI to throw the firebolt to come all the way back to me before charging a firebolt?
Also the pet needs to follow me after it's charged up firebolt.
Also before charging the firebolt for the first time, it should first come to where I'm located.

It should follow you :s It did for me. Also, it loads the firebolt when you load a skill, you could just play around with what skill and stuff. I don't feel like editing it D: But it's really easy. Just look through the commands :P

[sakraycore]

It should follow you :s It did for me. Also, it loads the firebolt when you load a skill, you could just play around with what skill and stuff. I don't feel like editing it D: But it's really easy. Just look through the commands :P

It doesn't follow you if you only move a little bit.

It's really not that easy lol.

[Zack]

It doesn't follow you if you only move a little bit.

It's really not that easy lol.

Bleh Idk lol. Not on Mabi right now so I can't work on it. If I finish (tonight) it later I'll just PM it to you.

[sakraycore]

And I REALLY doubt it's "Just" a bolt counter, considering the pet NEVER uses counter.

[Joker]

Buh. That means I need 200+ int by then.. eh.
Most mages are going to need at-least another 100 or so, I gather. Assuming they aren't all maxed out on +int skills and such.
Poor beginner mages, too.

its to get rid of total 100's with thunder thinking their all pro lol

plus every should want bolt composer over everything ... lol hax :P

[Kaeporo]

Can you quote anywhere other than the wiki where it says it will add a percentage rather than points?

Also, can you explain where does this damage come from? I read in Trigger's guide that Magic Mastery adds 1% damage per rank, but I think that was a mistake, and he meant Magic Balance. Wonder if this is true, 'cause current int formula, with your Int, yields 194ish damage:

2*log(600)^3=43

150+43=194

??

I read somewhere else that in G9 or G10 damage was improved by 10%.

Overall damage would yield 213 damage (194*1.1).

Even then, 220 is not possible.

Edit:

And in G13, max Lightning bolt damage would be 252 (150*1.4*1.2), using the % formula and Lightning Magic Mastery. Although a crit would hit 630 if crits compounds with Int damage OR 510~522 if it doesn't.

Intelligence improves magic damage (with the exception of Blaze) by 1% for every 20 intelligence. Magic Mastery improves Magic Balance by 1% per rank up to a maximum of 15%, which combined with the players own Magic Balance (obtained through intelligence) allows magic users to obtain 100% Magic Balance.


how do you get your pet to charge firebolt but not throw it? Is there an AI for it?

Edit: just watched the video over more carefully and it HAS to be an AI. I've wanted this AI for awhile, anyone have it? It's like the perfect archery/magic support

As far as artificial intelligence is concerned, perhaps you should try Pet Guardian v2.3?


its to get rid of total 100's with thunder thinking their all pro lol

plus every should want bolt composer over everything ... lol hax :P

Bolt Composer is no better than standard alchemy skills and is significantly worse against multiagro than intermediate magic.

[rinaek]

If Blaze follows a different formula for int, how much will be needed to reverse the 25% damage nerf?

[radionoise]

If Blaze follows a different formula for int, how much will be needed to reverse the 25% damage nerf?

The 25% damage nerf on Blaze is irreversible, there's no non-elemental magic mastery to boost its damage and the amount of intelligence that will affect the skill's multiplier is capped at 600.

[Pierce]

The 25% damage nerf on Blaze is irreversible, there's no non-elemental magic mastery to boost its damage and the amount of intelligence that will affect the skill's multiplier is capped at 600.

Do you know if affects the melee part as well or just the explosion?

[radionoise]

Do you know if affects the melee part as well or just the explosion?

Doubt it'll affect the melee part, that's just a % multiplier on your melee damage... The wiki says "1.4~2.0" is the melee damage multiplier, but unless it varies every time you use blaze, I would imagine that it's 140% at rF and 200% at r1?

[Pierce]

Doubt it'll affect the melee part, that's just a % multiplier on your melee damage... The wiki says "1.4~2.0" is the melee damage multiplier, but unless it varies every time you use blaze, I would imagine that it's 140% at rF and 200% at r1?

afaik, you get 200% damage at a full charge and 140%~ depending on how long you charge it.

(this makes a beast combo with Smash+Leap Attack+Blaze= 850%~ melee damage +Int explosion o.o)

[radionoise]

afaik, you get 200% damage at a full charge and 140%~ depending on how long you charge it.

(this makes a beast combo with Smash+Leap Attack+Blaze= 850%~ melee damage +Int explosion o.o)

That makes a bit more sense then, and the combo seems like it'd do some really good damage if leap attack allows you to activate the full knockdown multiplier.

[Cryosite]

Considering that the current best ways to use blaze solo is the 2 wandslaps + blaze combo, adding leap attack will let you get a lot more knockdown multiplier. That probably offsets the damage nerf through more ease of use.

Lol. 850% melee damage is not quite as impressive even with a ~90 damage combat wand ego, when you're losing a roughly ~100 damage weapon #2 for dual wielding swords and ~90 damage for a bast sword ego instead of combat wand. You'd do more damage with actual melee weapons doing smash+leap attack than you would with blaze. The point of blaze now, and still will be the explosion damage.

[Pierce]

Considering that the current best ways to use blaze solo is the 2 wandslaps + blaze combo, adding leap attack will let you get a lot more knockdown multiplier. That probably offsets the damage nerf through more ease of use.

Lol. 850% melee damage is not quite as impressive even with a ~90 damage combat wand ego, when you're losing a roughly ~100 damage weapon #2 for dual wielding swords and ~90 damage for a bast sword ego instead of combat wand. You'd do more damage with actual melee weapons doing smash+leap attack than you would with blaze. The point of blaze now, and still will be the explosion damage.

That's because Blaze was meant for a magic-melee hybrid, with both high Int and Str. I can easily get ~200 damage with enough lvl ups and some damage enchants using a combat wand. And most of my melee skills are rF. Now imagine an actual warrior with maxed out Str and end-game damage enchants. Combat wands have a really high crit and balance so they are really good melee weapons -expensive, but good-. Also, they have a huge splash radius (like a two hander), so that leap attack tactic would stun monsters nearby as well for AoE damage.

A combat wand is meant to be used with a shield. An actual Wizard Knight would wield a wand and a pair of swords (maybe a two hander). I don't believe the explosion is the most important part of the skill, looking at the big picture; maybe it is for pure mages, but not for high lvl hybrids.

Since damage from the skill itself comes from Int and Str, neither should have higher damage output than the other (in this combo, at least). 850% of 200 is 1700 non crit; plus Int damage, that's more than 3k damage in a single combo.

[Cryosite]

rk1 blaze with full charge off of a knockback can do 7200 on explosion damage alone. 5400 post-g13 nerf. That is not a crit. I've personally crit for nearly 12k with only rk2, against golden apple hard mobs.

Combo is nice I guess.

Also, smash>leap attack>wm does 900% melee damage, probably allows room for at least one weapon switch between smash and leap attack, so could potentially be using 2hander 600%, Leap attack 200% (with dual wield), and 250% WM (also with dual wield) for 1050% damage, all while using much more powerful melee weapons with a lot more max damage.

[Pierce]

rk1 blaze with full charge off of a knockback can do 7200 on explosion damage alone. 5400 post-g13 nerf. That is not a crit. I've personally crit for nearly 12k with only rk2, against golden apple hard mobs.

Combo is nice I guess.

Yes. But you need a full knockback for that damage. The previous formula is for soloing.

[radionoise]

That's because Blaze was meant for a magic-melee hybrid, with both high Int and Str. I can easily get ~200 damage with enough lvl ups and some damage enchants using a combat wand. And most of my melee skills are rF. Now imagine an actual warrior with maxed out Str and end-game damage enchants. Combat wands have a really high crit and balance so they are really good melee weapons -expensive, but good-. Also, they have a huge splash radius (like a two hander), so that leap attack tactic would stun monsters nearby as well for AoE damage.

A combat wand is meant to be used with a shield. An actual Wizard Knight would wield a wand and a pair of swords (maybe a two hander). I don't believe the explosion is the most important part of the skill, looking at the big picture; maybe it is for pure mages, but not for high lvl hybrids.

Since damage from the skill itself comes from Int and Str, neither should have higher damage output than the other (in this combo, at least). 850% of 200 is 1700 non crit; plus Int damage, that's more than 3k damage in a single combo.

At 200 max on a hardmode mob (~50 def, 30% prot), the melee portion (500% + 200% + 140%~200%) would deal ~1100 damage noncrit, the resulting explosion (G13 Blaze damage, full multiplier due to down attack and capped INT) would deal ~3700 noncrit damage. I think it would be optimal to have 250~300 max melee damage to make it worthwhile for hardmode and depending on leap attack's cooldown, you might have to stall a bit for consecutive usage.

The bulk of the damage would still come from the INT explosion, but the extra melee damage definitely helps and leap attack should make the full multiplier easier to achieve regularly.

[Pierce]

At 200 max on a hardmode mob (~50 def, 30% prot), the melee portion (500% + 200% + 140%~200%) would deal ~1100 damage noncrit, the resulting explosion (G13 Blaze damage, full multiplier due to down attack and capped INT) would deal ~3700 noncrit damage. I think it would be optimal to have 250~300 max melee damage to make it worthwhile for hardmode and depending on leap attack's cooldown, you might have to stall a bit for consecutive usage.

The bulk of the damage would still come from the INT explosion, but the extra melee damage definitely helps and leap attack should make the full multiplier easier to achieve regularly.

I'm not sure if you get a full multiplier after leap attack. I was under the impression that it worked like Charge.

[radionoise]

I'm not sure if you get a full multiplier after leap attack. I was under the impression that it worked like Charge.

Mmm... not sure if they changed it since the last time I saw the blaze combo being used (when leap attack was still in test), but I think it did back then.

If it doesn't, it's still better than def -> n+blaze in many situations... though Blaze at full multiplier will always deal faster damage.

[Chiyuri]

I'll just like to point out that while the new G13 int formula seem more powerful, it's actually weaker than our current int formula.

Here are some calculs I made in the past based on the information on the wiki.

Pre-G13 Int formula: 300 int with coresponding wand

Rank 1 Lightning bolt: 71 min - 193 max
Rank 1 ice bolt: 104 min - 120 max

G13 Int Formula: 300 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 47.15 min - 187.45 max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 85.1 min - 103.5 Max

G13 Int Formula: 600 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 53.3 min - 211.9 Max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 96.2 min - 117 Max


But.. with g13, the bonus damage from int is applied in critical so critical hit with bolt magic will be much higher than what it used to be.

[Cryosite]

@Chiyuri yes, the old formula did provide more of a boost to your damage at the lower ends of the INT scale than the post G13 does. read: newbie mages won't get as much out of their INT. However, the upper ends of the scale do provide more damage giving an incentive to actually trying to gain huge amounts of INT. that was one of the key missing aspects of a mage style build... warriors and archers are already hot and keen on piling on their stat, but prior to g13, once a mage learns how things actually work... they realize that something like +11 INT from Honorable/Famous accessory... does not much of anything.

The INT formula post g13 is also much more significant to intermediate and advanced magics. +1% damage on a spell that naturally does less than 100 damage is not very impressive at all (icebolt). +1% damage on a spell that hits for 3k is (fireball).

My biggest love for the new system is not so much the actual rewards it promises to me as a mage, it is the fact that boosting INT will actually be meaningful, and it is a system that rewards a player for devoting more time, ap, and training to being a better mage. Much like how how a mid-late game melee build will rank up a skill like final hit or carpentry... not because final hit is all that good (wm is almost always strictly better, as is smash) or because they like making bows, but because those skills enhance their playstyle through more strength.

[Chiyuri]

Even for powerful mage, 600+ int is within the realm of Tranform. Unless you spam payed rebirths and focus on int skill like crazy, which is not something everyone can do.. And even with 600 int, ice bolt damage is still lower than a 300 int mage pre-G13. I honestly can,t say that the formula is better simply because of int.. it's worst. But, once you take into acount critical damage will raise by a lot, I also have to agree this new formula is also better.

Also, from a source of information, I heard that int will also speed up casting speed of Bolt magic.

1% for 20 int is still very minor.. it's difficult to notice unlike raising Str or Dex for their respective class. Even if int become more importent, I think many magic user will still feel like int is somewhat pointless to raise past a certain point. Having more int will simply be a Bonus.. not the main reason you rank a skill.

Even for a skill like fireball, small little 1% are still far from been impressive. The main damage will still come from the power of Fireball. And situation where these little 30 more damamge would help finish up the ennemy that didn,t die from fireball high dammage are very slim.


Still, in general, g13 is a major boost for Magic user because of the mastery skills. using the right equipment and skill rank, it is possible to reach 99% mana reduction which is pretty crazy (no inter or Advance magic possible with that though)

[Tatsigi]

Even for powerful mage, 600+ int is within the realm of Tranform. Unless you spam payed rebirths and focus on int skill like crazy, which is not something everyone can do.. And even with 600 int, ice bolt damage is still lower than a 300 int mage pre-G13. I honestly can,t say that the formula is better simply because of int.. it's worst. But, once you take into acount critical damage will raise by a lot, I also have to agree this new formula is also better.

Also, from a source of information, I heard that int will also speed up casting speed of Bolt magic.

1% for 20 int is still very minor.. it's difficult to notice unlike raising Str or Dex for their respective class. Even if int become more importent, I think many magic user will still feel like int is somewhat pointless to raise past a certain point. Having more int will simply be a Bonus.. not the main reason you rank a skill.

Even for a skill like fireball, small little 1% are still far from been impressive. The main damage will still come from the power of Fireball. And situation where these little 30 more damamge would help finish up the ennemy that didn,t die from fireball high dammage are very slim.


Still, in general, g13 is a major boost for Magic user because of the mastery skills. using the right equipment and skill rank, it is possible to reach 99% mana reduction which is pretty crazy (no inter or Advance magic possible with that though)

First off, with some enchants and such a pure mage should have barely any difficulty reaching 600int. Right now ranking all the int skills a human would have 593int and a elf would have 607int just from the skills alone. Decent enchants and a title can easily add 30-80 int as well. I myself have around 760ish int with a good dk roll so no 600int is not within the realm and trans.

By next generation their is no excuse for a mage not to have 600int. After the g13 skills are added, humans can get up to 801int and elves can get up to 815 from ranking int skills alone. After adding enchants, leveling int, titles, and such then i can imagine that some hardcore mages will reach int in 900s without trans.

Next part at hand bolt magic can not reach 99% mana reduction due to the fact that mana reduction is multiplicative and not additive so all the mana reductions would be like that i believe

amount of mp used for bolt magic(45% (upgraded tikka wand) x 20% (rank 1 elemental mastery) x 20% (rank 1 bolt mastery) x 10% (mana reduction set)) = mana used.

[sakraycore]

I'll just like to point out that while the new G13 int formula seem more powerful, it's actually weaker than our current int formula.

Here are some calculs I made in the past based on the information on the wiki.

Pre-G13 Int formula: 300 int with coresponding wand

Rank 1 Lightning bolt: 71 min - 193 max
Rank 1 ice bolt: 104 min - 120 max

G13 Int Formula: 300 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 47.15 min - 187.45 max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 85.1 min - 103.5 Max

G13 Int Formula: 600 int with corresponding wand
Rank 1 lightning bolt: 53.3 min - 211.9 Max
Rank 1 Ice Bolt: 96.2 min - 117 Max


But.. with g13, the bonus damage from int is applied in critical so critical hit with bolt magic will be much higher than what it used to be.

Seriously conflicting information here. I was told earlier in the topic that only 10 INT is needed to break even??

[Lie]

Seriously conflicting information here. I was told earlier in the topic that only 10 INT is needed to break even??

Pre-G13 Intelligence of 10 = +2 extra damage

Post-G13 Intelligence of 10 = +0.5% extra damage

rF Lightningbolt = 1~40 damage

Pre-G13 rF Lightningbolt with 10 Int = 3~42 damage

Post-G13 rF Lightningbolt with 10 Int = 1~42 damage


I'm not sure if you get a full multiplier after leap attack. I was under the impression that it worked like Charge.

Depends on when you use Down Attack on the downed enemy.

At certain points of the knock back gauge, a Down Attack will actually "bounce" the target rather than push back the target like Charge.

[Chiyuri]

First off, with some enchants and such a pure mage should have barely any difficulty reaching 600int. Right now ranking all the int skills a human would have 593int and a elf would have 607int just from the skills alone. Decent enchants and a title can easily add 30-80 int as well. I myself have around 760ish int with a good dk roll so no 600int is not within the realm and trans.

By next generation their is no excuse for a mage not to have 600int. After the g13 skills are added, humans can get up to 801int and elves can get up to 815 from ranking int skills alone. After adding enchants, leveling int, titles, and such then i can imagine that some hardcore mages will reach int in 900s without trans.

Next part at hand bolt magic can not reach 99% mana reduction due to the fact that mana reduction is multiplicative and not additive so all the mana reductions would be like that i believe

amount of mp used for bolt magic(45% (upgraded tikka wand) x 20% (rank 1 elemental mastery) x 20% (rank 1 bolt mastery) x 10% (mana reduction set)) = mana used.

Int isn't everything for a magic user, Mana is also quite importent. My space for enchants was used for mana, not int.
Anyway, I'm not the best placed person to talk for mages, I'm a witch after all. Mana is first and only importance to a witch. With a good Rank 2 DK Roll (cause 1 is ugly) I can get around 1k mana, a Good int roll is only around 650 through in my case.


Anyway, I did some research on this multiplicative reduction. From what I found, while you are partially correct, you might as well be wrong too.

Mana Usage Reduction Armor effect act as a Cost Decreasing ability. If a spell would cost 100 mana to cast, you can cast it at 90 and it will only cost 90 mana.

Mana Reduction upgrades on wands Reduce the consuption of mana. 50% reduction on a wand would reduce the cost of a 100 mana spell down to 50. But you still need 100 mana to start casting.
These two mana reduction work differently which might be why they aren't addictive.. The armor first Reduce the cost of the spell down to 90, then the wand will remove 50% of the 90. ((Btw, I when ahead and tested it myself about 10 minutes ago))

Wand upgrades and the Armor are different form of mana reducing ability. One is "Consuption" and the other is "Cost".

The let me ask you.. Elemental mastery and Bolt Mastery Mana Reduction. Is it a Consuption reduction like wands?, a Cost Reduction like the armor effect? or a completly different reduction?

Wand Upgrades already prove that Consuption reduction can stack since we stack multiple upgrade with each their consuption reduction value.
So it's quite possible that "Cost" reduction also stack up. The wiki currently stade that Bolt mastery and elemental mastery have a Cost Reduction but it might just be a bad translation.

Anyway.. maybe I was a little far off with 99%, but it could reach atleast 74.5% overall reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X (10% + 20% + 20%))) X (100% - 49%) = Mana Used. Anyway, that,s based off if both skill are Cost reduction.
If they would be Consuption reduction it would be more like 90.1% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 20% - 20% - 49%) = Mana Used

If the Elemental mastery and bolt magic mastery mana reduction effect is different than "Cost" and "Consuption" but act like a secondary "Consuption" and both are the same thing.. We would get a 72.46% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% -20% - 20%) = Mana Used

If Elemental mastery and bolt Magic reduction are also different from each others and are neither Cost or Consuption but act like a Second and Third "Consuption". Then yes, it would be your complete Multiplicative reduction. 70.624% reduction (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% - 20%) X (100% - 20%) = Mana Used

Of course.. My guess is that Both these skills are a "Cost" reduction.

[Tatsigi]

Int isn't everything for a magic user, Mana is also quite importent. My space for enchants was used for mana, not int.
Anyway, I'm not the best placed person to talk for mages, I'm a witch after all. Mana is first and only importance to a witch. With a good Rank 2 DK Roll (cause 1 is ugly) I can get around 1k mana, a Good int roll is only around 650 through in my case.


Anyway, I did some research on this multiplicative reduction. From what I found, while you are partially correct, you might as well be wrong too.

Mana Usage Reduction Armor effect act as a Cost Decreasing ability. If a spell would cost 100 mana to cast, you can cast it at 90 and it will only cost 90 mana.

Mana Reduction upgrades on wands Reduce the consuption of mana. 50% reduction on a wand would reduce the cost of a 100 mana spell down to 50. But you still need 100 mana to start casting.
These two mana reduction work differently which might be why they aren't addictive.. The armor first Reduce the cost of the spell down to 90, then the wand will remove 50% of the 90. ((Btw, I when ahead and tested it myself about 10 minutes ago))

Wand upgrades and the Armor are different form of mana reducing ability. One is "Consuption" and the other is "Cost".

The let me ask you.. Elemental mastery and Bolt Mastery Mana Reduction. Is it a Consuption reduction like wands?, a Cost Reduction like the armor effect? or a completly different reduction?

Wand Upgrades already prove that Consuption reduction can stack since we stack multiple upgrade with each their consuption reduction value.
So it's quite possible that "Cost" reduction also stack up. The wiki currently stade that Bolt mastery and elemental mastery have a Cost Reduction but it might just be a bad translation.

Anyway.. maybe I was a little far off with 99%, but it could reach atleast 74.5% overall reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X (10% + 20% + 20%))) X (100% - 49%) = Mana Used. Anyway, that,s based off if both skill are Cost reduction.
If they would be Consuption reduction it would be more like 90.1% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 20% - 20% - 49%) = Mana Used

If the Elemental mastery and bolt magic mastery mana reduction effect is different than "Cost" and "Consuption" but act like a secondary "Consuption" and both are the same thing.. We would get a 72.46% reduction. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% -20% - 20%) = Mana Used

If Elemental mastery and bolt Magic reduction are also different from each others and are neither Cost or Consuption but act like a Second and Third "Consuption". Then yes, it would be your complete Multiplicative reduction. 70.624% reduction (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X 10%)) X (100% - 49%) X (100% - 20%) X (100% - 20%) = Mana Used

Of course.. My guess is that Both these skills are a "Cost" reduction.

Well, mana in not the topic of this thread is it? Also, you are the 1st person for me to hear refer to there character as a "witch". Mana is important and all and I personally use will o wisp gear for mana and int due to the lack of good int enchants currently, but mana is something that can be easily obtained with pots. While thunder mages like myself will have larger mana pools compared to ice spear mages, in the end it doesn't really matter because both spells are using a crapload of mana that exceeds both of our mana pools. Also i'll just randomly add in that in g13 704mp can be obtained from skill ranking.

Now for the point of a mana reduction set. I question where you get this "cost" theory from, because if you were to hover over the icon on mabinogi or check the wiki you will see that it obviously states "Reduces Mana consumption by 10%". The spell being able to be cast at 90% of the mana is supposed to cost is just a bonus affect, that most mages hardly notice or even care for. If that was the only affect then the set would be worthless. They care about if they 100mana currently and they are wearing the set instead of using 32 mana for 1 charge of rank one ice spear, they will instead only use 28.8. Saving them 4 mana per charged. Meaning that the 10% from the mana reduction set would be multiplicative with the mana reduction from the wands and masteries.

For the masteries, your reasoning....confused me...so before i reply to that, I would like to be more informed about it.

[Justified]

Wand Upgrades already prove that Consuption reduction can stack since we stack multiple upgrade with each their consuption reduction value.
So it's quite possible that "Cost" reduction also stack up. The wiki currently stade that Bolt mastery and elemental mastery have a Cost Reduction but it might just be a bad translation.

They don't add. Wand upgrades are considered one effect, which is why they're added. Other effects (mastery, bolt properties) will not be added.

Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost

Meaning 0.89MP Icebolts at Rank 1 or 0.22MP Icebolts at Rank F.


This isn't Maplestory, people need to stop adding percentages.

[Chiyuri]

They don't add. Wand upgrades are considered one effect, which is why they're added. Other effects (mastery, bolt properties) will not be added.

Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost

Meaning 0.89MP Icebolts at Rank 1 or 0.22MP Icebolts at Rank F.


This isn't Maplestory, people need to stop adding percentages.

So what you are saying is that Bolt Magic mastery's 20% is overuled if Ice Magic mastery has more mana cost reduction?
I'll just like to know where you got that information and if you tested it out yourself in a server that has G13?

Also I never played, researched or even looked at maplestory. I don't see the point of your comment unless ya taking for granted I'm been influenced by that game somehow?


Also to the other person before.
Wiki has called Fireball/Thunder/Ice Spear to be Advance magic for a long time which was wrong from the begining.
Even NA Mabinogi game call Escra from G2 as "He" which is a translation error in most case.
You can't take for granted how things are writen ingame.. but simply how they work. Test it out yourself if you don't beleive "Cost" type Mana Reduction and "Consuption" type mana reduction. I personnaly got that theory from one of Justified's post I found while researching this multiplicative theory of yours and tested it to see if it did work.

Last detail. I use the word "Witch" because I can't use "Mage". If I claim to be a mage on a forum, I get this "a person who drink mana potion" labled forced on me. Honestly it piss me off. I made a Self-Mana Suffisant magic user that doesn't need mana potions. If I can't call myself a mage, I might as well use a different "Magic user" related name instead. Which is why I took Witch. Ice Spear never exceeded my mana pool. If used wisely, inter magic are never mana costy and will not require you to drinik mana potions. Of course if ya just the type to spam it left and right, of course you'll end up wasting all your mana.

[Tatsigi]

So what you are saying is that Bolt Magic mastery's 20% is overuled if Ice Magic mastery has more mana cost reduction?
I'll just like to know where you got that information and if you tested it out yourself in a server that has G13?

Also I never played, researched or even looked at maplestory. I don't see the point of your comment unless ya taking for granted I'm been influenced by that game somehow?


Also to the other person before.
Wiki has called Fireball/Thunder/Ice Spear to be Advance magic for a long time which was wrong from the begining.
Even NA Mabinogi game call Escra from G2 as "He" which is a translation error in most case.
You can't take for granted how things are writen ingame.. but simply how they work. Test it out yourself if you don't beleive "Cost" type Mana Reduction and "Consuption" type mana reduction. I personnaly got that theory from one of Justified's post I found while researching this multiplicative theory of yours and tested it to see if it did work.

Last detail. I use the word "Witch" because I can't use "Mage". If I claim to be a mage on a forum, I get this "a person who drink mana potion" labled forced on me. Honestly it piss me off. I made a Self-Mana Suffisant magic user that doesn't need mana potions. If I can't call myself a mage, I might as well use a different "Magic user" related name instead. Which is why I took Witch. Ice Spear never exceeded my mana pool. If used wisely, inter magic are never mana costy and will not require you to drinik mana potions. Of course if ya just the type to spam it left and right, of course you'll end up wasting all your mana.

So you are telling me you can run a whole SCC HM and not use 1 pot.

[Chiyuri]

So you are telling me you can run a whole SCC HM and not use 1 pot.

I never tried this one before at that dificulity, I only run what I need to run. But I did run a big bunch of Ennemy Behind HM while Hunting for Shock. Some Provocation as well
and a bunch of offerings.
I did run a peaca basic resently too, it was quite fun.

[Justified]

So what you are saying is that Bolt Magic mastery's 20% is overuled if Ice Magic mastery has more mana cost reduction?
I'll just like to know where you got that information and if you tested it out yourself in a server that has G13?

Also I never played, researched or even looked at maplestory. I don't see the point of your comment unless ya taking for granted I'm been influenced by that game somehow?

Where did I say overruled? I said they were multiplied, not added. That doesn't mean overruled.

Maplestory adds percentages for Critical Hit. Can't remember exactly since I quit that several years ago, but it's the same thing people keep doing here when calculating things.

It's like Smash and Critical Hit. You dont add 500% and 250% to get 750%. You multiply 500% by 250% to get 1250%.

[Pierce]

Where did I say overruled? I said they were multiplied, not added. That doesn't mean overruled.

Maplestory adds percentages for Critical Hit. Can't remember exactly since I quit that several years ago, but it's the same thing people keep doing here when calculating things.

It's like Smash and Critical Hit. You dont add 500% and 250% to get 750%. You multiply 500% by 250% to get 1250%.

I don't even know what she means with overruled. ._.

It doesn't matter if you multiply percentages in any order...

(ice magic mastery %)*(INT damage %) = (INT damage %)*(ice magic mastery %)

Example:

90% of 50% is the same as 50% of 90%.

[Chiyuri]

Where did I say overruled? I said they were multiplied, not added. That doesn't mean overruled..

You said ""Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost""

Why didn't you add Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction effect in there then?

[Pierce]

You said ""Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost""

Why didn't you add Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction effect in there then?

That actually means 77.97% reduction XD

[Justified]

You said ""Mana Reduction, Tikka Wand, Icebolt Mastery, and Icebolt 5th Charge will be the most reduction you can get.
x .90 x .51 x .80 x .60 = 22.03% MP Usage/Cost""

Why didn't you add Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction effect in there then?

I left out Magic Bolt Mastery then, since I forgot about it. Still don't know where "overruling" came from.

In which case you get 17.62% Usage, or 82.37% Reduction.

The point was that you don't add them together, you multiply. If you added 10% (Reduction Status), 49% (Tikka Upgrades), 20% (Ice Mastery), 20% (Bolt Mastery), 40% (Icebolt charges), then you'd end up with 139%. Meaning you'd have either 0MP Cost, or gain MP by casting magic.

It's obvious that it doesn't work that way.

[Pierce]

Meaning you'd have either 0MP Cost, or gain MP by casting magic.

Now that would be sexy.

[Chiyuri]

I left out Magic Bolt Mastery then, since I forgot about it. Still don't know where "overruling" came from.

In which case you get 17.62% Usage, or 82.37% Reduction.

The point was that you don't add them together, you multiply. If you added 10% (Reduction Status), 49% (Tikka Upgrades), 20% (Ice Mastery), 20% (Bolt Mastery), 40% (Icebolt charges), then you'd end up with 139%. Meaning you'd have either 0MP Cost, or gain MP by casting magic.

It's obvious that it doesn't work that way.

I already said I gave up the idea of Adding All of it togeter. But it's still possible that "Cost" type reductions Stack with other "Cost" type and that "Consuption" type stack with other "Consuption".
I already had asked you before.. where do you get the information about G13 that they absolutly don't stack up togeter? Did you go in a G13 server and tested it out yourself?


If Cost type Do Stack togeter and that Both Bolt Magic mastery and elemental mastery are Cost Type reduction.
it would give something like that(Ice Bolt final charge mana reduction is a Cost type)
94.9% overall reduction when using ice bolt final charge. (Spell Innitial Cost - (Spell Innitial Cost X (10% + 20% + 20% + 40%))) X (100% - 49%) = Mana Used.
It's still under 100%.

If they are consuption Type, which I find really doubtful since it wouldn't make much sence, it's possible it could go over 100% reduction.

Anyway, I'm just stating possibilities until someone bring proof of how Elemental Mastery Mana reduction and Bolt Magic Mastery Mana Reduction work with other mana reductions.


Edit: for those who saw the first version, Look at it again, I went and tested out if Ice bolt Final Charge was a Cost type or a Consuption type. It's a cost type reduction. I,ma go test out if mana reduction armor reduction and ice bolt final charge reduction stack togeter.. sadly using such low amount of mana, it might be difficult to actually notice the different but I'll see.

Edit 2: Hmm that's pretty sad... That I use mana reduction armor or not, the ice bolt can be casted at around 2.4 mana If it was addictive, it should be 2 mana... if it was multiplicative, it should be at 2.16 mana. it's possible that these Cost reduction are overullnig the lower one and only the highest one is used... or maybe ice bolt final charge reduction is special...

[Pierce]

Hey Chiyuri, I'm trying to understand your reasoning but please be more specific in your equations. Like, where do the numbers come from? Categorize those % that you consider cost-type and reduction-type before proceeding to formulate the equation so we can have a clear vision of your reasoning.

[Chiyuri]

Hey Chiyuri, I'm trying to understand your reasoning but please be more specific in your equations. Like, where do the numbers come from? Categorize those % that you consider cost-type and reduction-type before proceeding to formulate the equation so we can have a clear vision of your reasoning.

Well I'm not even sure it works anymore...
But here it goes: 10% is the Mana Reduction from Armor Effect. I call it a Cost type Reduction.
The 20% are Reduction from Ice mastery and Bolt Mastery. Both these skill add 20% reduction. It ain't sure what kind of reduction they are.
The 40% is the mana reduction when casting the final ice bolt charge. It is a Cost type reduction. (First charge of ice bolt is 100% cost, second bolt is 90%, third is 80% fourth is 70% and the final one is 60%, so you save 40% mana when casting the last one)
The 49% is the reduction from a fully upgraded tikka healing wand. It's a Consuption reduction.

The 100% I use in the equation is to reverse the reduction amount since the equation is not how much mana is removed but instead how much mana is used when Casting.

[Pierce]

Well I'm not even sure it works anymore...
But here it goes: 10% is the Mana Reduction from Armor Effect. I call it a Cost type Reduction.
The 20% are Reduction from Ice mastery and Bolt Mastery. Both these skill add 20% reduction. It ain't sure what kind of reduction they are.
The 40% is the mana reduction when casting the final ice bolt charge. It is a Cost type reduction. (First charge of ice bolt is 100% cost, second bolt is 90%, third is 80% fourth is 70% and the final one is 60%, so you save 40% mana when casting the last one)
The 49% is the reduction from a fully upgraded tikka healing wand. It's a Consuption reduction.

The 100% I use in the equation is to reverse the reduction amount since the equation is not how much mana is removed but instead how much mana is used when Casting.

Okay then according to you,

Reduction set: Cost.

5th charge: Cost (btw, are you sure about this? afaik you need to have the enough MP to cast the spell, however, it will consume just a %. Therefore, it should be consumption, right?)

Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery: either cost or consumption. But should they both fall under the same category?


First charge of ice bolt is 100% cost, second bolt is 90%, third is 80% fourth is 70% and the final one is 60%, so you save 40% mana when casting the last one)

For the moment I would like to leave this aside.

- So, we all agree the 10% reduction from the set is a cost reduction.

so the final consumption would be 90% (of something)

- If Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery reduction stack, the final consumption would be 60% of the total.

=90%(60%(of something)=54%

- So this fixed reduction percentage would apply to the Xth icebolt charge. Equation for the final charge would be 54%*60%=32.4%, for a 67.6% reduction.

- However, I think every percentage reduction compounds like this:

(Reduction set)*(Bolt Mastery reduction)*(Elemental Mastery reduction)*(Bolt consumption)

=0.9*0.8*0.8*0.6=0.3456,

a 65.44% reduction.

[Chiyuri]

Okay then according to you,

Reduction set: Cost.

5th charge: Cost (btw, are you sure about this? afaik you need to have the enough MP to cast the spell, however, it will consume just a %. Therefore, it should be consumption, right?)

Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery: either cost or consumption. But should they both fall under the same category?



For the moment I would like to leave this aside.

- So, we all agree the 10% reduction from the set is a cost reduction.

so the final consumption would be 90% (of something)

- If Ice Mastery and Bolt Mastery reduction stack, the final consumption would be 60% of the total.

=90%(60%(of something)=54%

- So this fixed reduction percentage would apply to the Xth icebolt charge. Equation for the final charge would be 54%*60%=32.4%, for a 67.6% reduction.

- However, I think every percentage reduction compounds like this:

(Reduction set)*(Bolt Mastery reduction)*(Elemental Mastery reduction)*(Bolt consumption)

=0.9*0.8*0.8*0.6=0.3456,

a 65.44% reduction.

For the IceBolt Mana reduction which is 40%, it act like a Cost reduction, just like the Armor effect. Let say you have rank 1 ice bolt which cost 4 mana. You have 3 mana left in your pool. You aren,t aloud to cast ice bolt until you actually have that 4 mana. Now Let say you already have 4 ice bolt so the next have a 40% Cost reduction. Once you have 2.4 mana, you can start casting ice bolt. I tested it a while ago and if you got the right skill rank, you can go ahead and test it yourself.
But yea.. sadly my testing showed that Armor effect and the IceBolt effect don't compound or stack.. Since both act like a Cost reduction.. after they compount you should be able to start casting at 2.16 mana. (4 mana * 0.6 * 0.9) = 2.16 . But ingame.. I couldn,t cast Ice bolt at 2.16 mana.. I could only start casting at 2.4 mana. It's possible that Cost reduction only apply the highest reduction and ignore any additionnal Cost reduction Effects.

[Pierce]

Why are we having this byzantine argument anyways? Icebolt is the only spell with this property so it's not that important... also I don't know many mages that rely on the 5th bolt to kill stuff, and a fused bolt has no element... so...

[Justified]

Why are we having this byzantine argument anyways? Icebolt is the only spell with this property so it's not that important... also I don't know many mages that rely on the 5th bolt to kill stuff, and a fused bolt has no element... so...

I spent ~500 levels of my newb life spamming 5th charge Icebolts, lol.
Plus the fact that they'll be stronger and cheaper might make them more useful for things like Fiodh Int. I can already run Int 1 with only Icebolt and no MP Pots, so with the changes it may be possible to clear it with no MP usage at all (counting regen).

[sakraycore]

Why would you use icebolt instead of arrow revolver for clearing fiodh int 1?

Is it to reduce consumption of arrows and stamina?

[Justified]

Why would you use icebolt instead of arrow revolver for clearing fiodh int 1?

Is it to reduce consumption of arrows and stamina?

Icebolt + Ice Mastery + Bolt Mastery = 362 AP
Arrow Revolver + Ranged Attack = 369 AP +1.5mil for AR pages

I don't like Human range at all so I have almost no AP invested into it, except for Rank B Range (Delusional) and Rank 8 Support Shot. In fact I don't even have AR.