Guild Loot Systems

[Grifter]

As time goes on, our guild continues to grow and therefore runs harder dungeons together. Harder dungeons, in general, yield better loot; it's just an integral part of MMORPG's.

(Un)fortunately, Mabinogi does not operate the same way that other MMORPG's do. For example, I've been told that end-game equipments in WoW "Bind" on equip, so that whoever has a turn to loot cannot turn around and resell. On the other hand, any loot given to someone can easily be sold for a quick buck.

How do you think high-end loot should be split amongst guild members?

I ask only because I do not want to deal with any "Guild Loot Hoppers", especially since our guild is growing and runs HM dungeons more frequently than before.

It obviously wouldn't be fair if it were just a "first to call dibs" system.. same goes to a "winner take all" scheme where LUCK has too much weight on loot. The ideal loot distribution system should reward those who work the hardest while also preventing veterans from completely shutting out new runners.

There are those who request help for an item/page/enchant but never contribute.
On the flipside, in some cases those who frequently answer calls for assistance are never properly rewarded for their efforts.

What dungeon loot system do you think works the best for Mabinogi?

[Hiccup]

Whoever picks it up gets it.

[Andy-Buddy]

A pre-agreed system of:

Whomever works the hardest gets the most. If they contributed anything from amazing healing and saving you when you need it, to tanking rooms and wiping everything, that(those) person(people) should be rewarded the most. It requires honesty, so you're gonna need a reliable party.

[Intex]

If one person gets say, a rare vintage and wants to keep it, he should pay the party in accordance to the items worth.

OFC it also depends on who did the most work or who slacks.
There's always a possibility someone will resale, but you have a gist of who to trust and who not to.
There's the person who does "Oh you need potions, I think I have some."
And "Could you buy me some feathers?" (when near town and without paying back).

If it's their drop they are entitled to some of the luck though.

[Yogurticecream]

If it isn't worth a lot, person in guild gets to keep it or decide what he/she wants to do with it.

It's more about the fun rather than what you get.

Though when it comes to me, if I get high-end loot that is sellable, I'll split it. If it's something I want to keep (e.g. Viper ES), I'll request and see what the rest has to say.

[Nakishu]

I go with whatevers fair.

[Aubog007]

Guild leader decides what to do with it before the run is made.
That's how i did it and it was fair.

[Yah]

You sell the item and split the profit. If a person in guild who was in the party wants the item dropped then you need to determine a price before you start running. Depending by the amount of people that person divides the market price (or guild discount) between the remaining members of the party. This basicaly makes everyone in the party is an equal beneficiary. If someone isn't pulling their weight it i your own fault for allowing them into the party. Next time don't let them join you on your endeavor.

[Syrphid]

Whoever picks it up gets it.

That gives players an incentive to rush boss monsters, at the cost of casual play, safety, and teamwork.


A pre-agreed system of:

Whomever works the hardest gets the most. If they contributed anything from amazing healing and saving you when you need it, to tanking rooms and wiping everything, that(those) person(people) should be rewarded the most. It requires honesty, so you're gonna need a reliable party.

I agree, but how to quantify this? How to implement in practice?



If it isn't worth a lot, person in guild gets to keep it or decide what he/she wants to do with it.

It's more about the fun rather than what you get.

Though when it comes to me, if I get high-end loot that is sellable, I'll split it. If it's something I want to keep (e.g. Viper ES), I'll request and see what the rest has to say.

I agree, I play casually and don't care that much about drops. However, your last statement begins Zatrox's thread. What to do when someone wants something?


Guild leader decides what to do with it before the run is made.
That's how i did it and it was fair.

Thread creator is my guild leader, not an option.


You sell the item and split the profit. If a person in guild who was in the party wants the item dropped then you need to determine a price before you start running. Depending by the amount of people that person divides the market price (or guild discount) between the remaining members of the party. This basicaly makes everyone in the party is an equal beneficiary. If someone isn't pulling their weight it i your own fault for allowing them into the party. Next time don't let them join you on your endeavor.

This is what almost everyone does. I did it all the time before. But what if there's a better system? This does not take care of players giving different amounts of effort, as you noted.

from: Suicide Kings - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Suicide_Kings)


Suicide Kings is a loot distribution system for guild raiding. Suicide Kings was designed to be a system that distributes loot in decently fair manner, and nothing else. If you choose SK as your loot system, that means you are going to have to find some other way to get players to perform well and show up when no loot drops. This emphasizes the point that SK works better in casual and friendly environments where people show up to play first and foremost, and loot is but a happy consequence. If loot is the main (or only!) reason people show up, SK is not the right system for you.

The basics of the system are as follows:

1. Players are put in an ordered list, usually based on a random roll (although some have made attempts to translate the order from a pre-existing loot system). Multiple lists may be used (see below for discussion).
2. When a new player needs to be added to the list, it is possible to let him "roll in," or simply insert him at the bottom of the list(s).
3. When loot is dropped, the person who wants it and is nearest the top of the list wins the loot and goes to the bottom of the list.
4. Players who are not currently in the raid do not move up or down in the lists.
5. If no-one wants the item, it is up to the guild to decide what to do with it.

Before today I didn't even know they had loot distribution systems. This requires keeping a simple list of guildies on a website. This distributes loot without requiring that money change hands. It seems to handle cheap and expensive loot well too, as those shooting for expensive stuff will have to save up and hold off, while others can settle for more cheap stuff.

Doesn't help with half-ass players though.

I think it's important, if we do use a loot system, that we keep it simple. The usual cut and sell method is easy. This should be easy to do as well. The website notes that it's a very "transparent" system. Even youngin's should understand it. It would be hard to tamper with SK's list without someone noticing.

A system that rewards punctuality, frequent playing, and high level play will also tend to be complicated and annoying. I haven't read up on what I'm sure are at least hundreds of other loot systems, so I wouldn't know where to draw the line.

[Aubog007]

My original post was when i was in a guild rabbie adv so i had little time to type.




Thread creator is my guild leader, not an option.


I AM the guild leader of my guild so i was giving him a leader's opinion.
I WAS in Ruairi and anyone who came with me on my guild runs were fairly rewarded with what they needed.

Too bad you weren't around for the Peaca basic runs when they were just released...
And I had someone steal a DB and violated the rules of the run.

Anywho... back to the point.
Who has the pass. Who NEEDS said item instead of WANTING said item.
If noone calls out anything BEFORE the pass is use (Since i'm guild leader) I call out what's going to be done with it. (most likely sell it and split)
Money is the most useless thing in this game... Helping guild members get skills or things they NEED > Money.
Make the guild stronger. not richer.
Greed makes people into hideous things.


When you are a fair and generous leader.
People respect you more. If they don't like your ways... Well it IS your guild afterall.

[Hiccup]

Too bad you weren't around for the Peaca basic runs when they were just released...
And I had someone steal a DB and violated the rules of the run.

Greed makes people into hideous things.
This be the problem. You can't really trust guildies even respected ones 100% cause they can turn on ya so fast.

I'd say if an item drops that someone wants have an auction with Guild discount. Goes to the highest bidder. Though that wont really work if people dun have the money. Then you could.....
The Most Successful Loot Systems | Groups of Words (http://www.groupsofwords.com/2008/12/16/the-most-successful-loot-systems/)

Overview of Loot Systems | Groups of Words (http://www.groupsofwords.com/2008/12/31/overview-of-loot-systems/)

Both good reads.

[Aubog007]

This be the problem. You can't really trust guildies even respected ones 100% cause they can turn on ya so fast.

I'd say if an item drops that someone wants have an auction with Guild discount. Goes to the highest bidder. Though that wont really work if people dun have the money. Then you could.....
The Most Successful Loot Systems | Groups of Words (http://www.groupsofwords.com/2008/12/16/the-most-successful-loot-systems/)

Overview of Loot Systems | Groups of Words (http://www.groupsofwords.com/2008/12/31/overview-of-loot-systems/)

Both good reads.

Person who did that later paid us all back.
Took a lot of harassing but it worked.
Either way i give everyone one chance of trust, Mess it up and it's gone for good.
Can't be a fair guild if you don't give everyone a fair shot.

[Justified]

Anywho... back to the point.
Who has the pass. Who NEEDS said item instead of WANTING said item.
If noone calls out anything BEFORE the pass is use (Since i'm guild leader) I call out what's going to be done with it. (most likely sell it and split)
Money is the most useless thing in this game... Helping guild members get skills or things they NEED > Money.
Make the guild stronger. not richer.
Greed makes people into hideous things.

Efficiency - "Whoever finds it gets it" - Assumption that in the long run, drops will even out between all players. Incentive for people to attend multiple runs for more chances at a "jackpot" chest. Drawback is that somebody who wants something will have to ask/buy it from the person who finds it.

Equity - "Fair split" - Monetary value is evenly decided amongst all runners. Incentive for players to attend a run and be guaranteed some cash, should anything at all drop. Drawbacks are the amount of uneven effort not being addressed, and that the finder has their reward mostly taken away from them.

In both systems, there's a high chance of resentment. Some people feel like rewards should be split since runs are group efforts. Others feel like rewards are entirely theirs because it's their luck that found it. Some people feel like weaker members or bad players shouldn't receive the same amount of a cut. Others may feel like their greater ability to kick fomor butt should receive a more plentiful reward.
And what about Hardmode dungeons? You could get more than one valuable item (I've head stories of people getting 3 Vintage Dustin Helms in one run).

A good system should not only force people to (somehow) divide the loot evenly, but motivate them to do so. It's easy to say "sure I'll share the loot" but then just run off when it's in your pocket. Saying that failure to comply will result in a kick from the guild isn't really motivation. It's been shown that our community cares nothing about past scamming/hacking history. They can just join another guild and move on with the game.

I disagree that money is useless. Equipment in endgame dungeons can make or break a player. The ability to buy Holy Water or other life skill material gives you more time to grind levels instead of grind Kristell. The ability to buy NX gets you more frequent rebirths. Money opens up a lot of doors.

[Osayidan]

The suicide kings system from WoW looks good, only isue is that it was designed for WoW. Most dungeons only give 1 really sought after item, while the rest is junk drops like a gold pile. Even when there's a few good rewards the difference between the best one and the lesser ones is usually vast. Not tomention in mabi getting a reward at the end of the dungeon to begin with is often a huge 'maybe'.

Suicide Kings is based on there being an almost guaranteed chance that there will be loot on your raid. And often times enough to go around.

In mabi it's all about luck, and tuesdays. So rather than cycling through people on the basis of them having got the loot, maybe cycle through them on the number of runs. common passes maybe give everyone 2 runs, rarer passes 1 run. Then it moves on to the next on the list for that same dungeon.

[Grifter]

If noone calls out anything BEFORE the pass is use (Since i'm guild leader) I call out what's going to be done with it. (most likely sell it and split)
Money is the most useless thing in this game... Helping guild members get skills or things they NEED > Money.
Make the guild stronger. not richer.
.

What is stopping a player from "needing" the rarest item in the loot pile, then moving it to a mule and pawning off the money? :v Untraceable.



It's been shown that our community cares nothing about past scamming/hacking history. They can just join another guild and move on with the game.


I think this is one of the bigger differences between other MMO's and Nexon games. Deception is too common and too easy to pull off.
Doesn't help that any any semblance of a "list of alleged bad apples" gets locked for harassment.


The suicide kings system from WoW looks good, only isue is that it was designed for WoW. Most dungeons only give 1 really sought after item, while the rest is junk drops like a gold pile. Even when there's a few good rewards the difference between the best one and the lesser ones is usually vast. Not tomention in mabi getting a reward at the end of the dungeon to begin with is often a huge 'maybe'.


This is another one of my concerns: adjusting another MMO's loot system(s) so that it can pertain to Mabinogi. There are just so many differences that it really does get quite annoying; I sometimes wish items like Dustin Helm were binded on equip (like ZHelms in Maple).

[Fumy]

Lets say~
Me and my guild run Fomor Commander II for Enchants/Broad Axe...
So we grind till everyone gets something he/she wants and I hold everything (Im Guild Leader :P) till I got enough to split it up and make everyone happy^^ Works pretty good your guild members just need to have some patience~

[Grifter]

Lets say~
Me and my guild run Fomor Commander II for Enchants/Broad Axe...
So we grind till everyone gets something he/she wants and I hold everything (Im Guild Leader :P) till I got enough to split it up and make everyone happy^^ Works pretty good your guild members just need to have some patience~

What is stopping a player from "becoming busy" once his/her item is found? :v

[Fumy]

What is stopping a player from "becoming busy" once his/her item is found? :v

Sowwy but I dun have members like that in my guild :P well if he/she completely goes afk and doesnt go to any future runs (I don't really mind if you go afk for a few minutes and don't participate in like 1 run) he/she gets nothing for not helping :3 You can't really help once and when someone gets the item you want just leave and wait till the others get more thats just messed up

[Justified]

Suicide Kings is based on there being an almost guaranteed chance that there will be loot on your raid. And often times enough to go around.

In mabi it's all about luck, and tuesdays. So rather than cycling through people on the basis of them having got the loot, maybe cycle through them on the number of runs. common passes maybe give everyone 2 runs, rarer passes 1 run. Then it moves on to the next on the list for that same dungeon.

WoW actually does guarantee a defined number of loot per boss kill. The only random part is which class-type is dropped. Another thing is that there are class restrictions on the loot, while Mabi only has race restrictions (and the majority of endgame players are human, making this even more iffy).

I looked through a couple more of the loot systems and I have to say I like Relational DKP (http://www.wowwiki.com/Relational_DKP) the best. It can easily be adapted into Mabi, and doesn't base anything off of "needs" but off of frequency of participation and loot grabbing. The price of items can be set by their worth in millions, while the DKP accumulation can be the long-term average profit per run.

[December]

In the party I've been in anyway, the system always seems to be if your party is doing a dungeon without the intentions of getting that item, finders keeper

But if its like doing Alby Int for 4 in search for an Adv Pass and the page drops, its usually split. I suppose its a matter of how valuable the item is, though I only ever go with friends so its not too hard to work out. When a person in the party does considerably more work than everyone else we tend to give them priority.

@Zatrox, I suppose you could be 'buzy' in give them their item, that assumes the guild leader has it already. Oh and Zhelms can be unbinded using NX ^^;;

[Grifter]

In the party I've been in anyway, the system always seems to be if your party is doing a dungeon without the intentions of getting that item, finders keeper

But if its like doing Alby Int for 4 in search for an Adv Pass and the page drops, its usually split. I suppose its a matter of how valuable the item is, though I only ever go with friends so its not too hard to work out. When a person in the party does considerably more work than everyone else we tend to give them priority.

@Zatrox, I suppose you could be 'buzy' in give them their item, that assumes the guild leader has it already. Oh and Zhelms can be unbinded using NX ^^;;

Finders keeps = items <1m. Done and done.
We're talking items of higher value here, such as Dustin Helms and Colin Plates, where a simple "finder's keepers" does not appropriately reward runners.

Guild leader corruption -> People leave guild -> No guild + infamy. Not going to happen as far as I'm concerned.
And I'm talking about when ZHelm was organized before that unbinding NX item was released :p

[Fumy]

it isnt Guild Leader corruption if you refuse to give someone items that didnt help to get them :o

well the way I did it never made anyone mad/angry yet

[Yogurticecream]

I agree, I play casually and don't care that much about drops. However, your last statement begins Zatrox's thread. What to do when someone wants something?
In a trusted group, whoever opens it is entitled to their share of luck.
If they want to share their luck or not, it's perfectly up to them.
I'm only saying that if it's me, I will share it unless the item is difficult to share (e.g. Viper enchant scroll isn't worth as much as a successful item and you need some investment into magical clothing to get it successfully enchanted, so it's not really easy to share).

Anyway I believe the future exclusive-enchant-binding system is meant to keep some drops exclusive to people who get them.

[Grifter]

In a trusted group, whoever opens it is entitled to their share of luck.
If they want to share their luck or not, it's perfectly up to them.
I'm only saying that if it's me, I will share it unless the item is difficult to share (e.g. Viper enchant scroll isn't worth as much as a successful item and you need some investment into magical clothing to get it successfully enchanted, so it's not really easy to share).

Anyway I believe the future exclusive-enchant-binding system is meant to keep some drops exclusive to people who get them.

Systems like these do not reward dungeon frequency; it really only works for a one-time casual run with a buddy list or something.

[Osayidan]

If you track it on a per-dungeon basis rather than as a full guild list, you can assign points to individuals for that dungeon. Then if they are on a run that drops something they wanted, you either set them back to 0 for that dungeon, or remove X points, as if they were using the points to 'buy' the item. Maybe you can give out bonus points for providing the pass.


So for example in a massive guild of 4 people. They want to run peaca basic for a dblade.

Person 1 finds a pass, so +0.5 point. All 4 participate in the run, so +1 to all of them (assuming they all contributed equally to the run and no one AFKed for a whole floor or something).

The next day person 2 managed to get 3 passes for peaca basic, he provides all 3 to the guild, so +1.5 to him. all but person 1 participated in the 3 runs.

So after all that the points distribution is:
P1: 1.5
P2: 5.5
P3: 4
P4: 4

On their next run, if P2 was in that run, he would have rights to the dblade if they find one. Then depending how the guild leader manages it, he's either set back to 0 for the peaca basic category, or loses X points based on the decided value of the dblade.

That way not only encourages people to go on runs, but to hunt passes for the runs.

[Grifter]

On their next run, if P2 was in that run, he would have rights to the dblade if they find one. Then depending how the guild leader manages it, he's either set back to 0 for the peaca basic category, or loses X points based on the decided value of the dblade.


Would have to modify this idea for it to work.
What if a player accrues, say, 15 points (even with 20% decay) and always attends runs, but on the ONE run he doesn't attend it drops?

[Justified]

If you track it on a per-dungeon basis rather than as a full guild list, you can assign points to individuals for that dungeon. Then if they are on a run that drops something they wanted, you either set them back to 0 for that dungeon, or remove X points, as if they were using the points to 'buy' the item. Maybe you can give out bonus points for providing the pass.

But after they receive the item they want they might stop doing Peaca altogether. This is where a universal guild list is better than a dungeon specific one, people will be motivated to run dungeons that they don't want anything just so they can gain more favor for other dungeons where they do.

A system that awards points based on the difficult of the dungeon, and subtracts points based on the value of the item seems the most balanced to me. It will keep members coming to runs, which is what most other methods can't do.

("Thanks for the free FB10, are we doing another run? ... Oh wait sorry, I have to go now, bye~")

[Aubog007]

Wow. Everyone here doesn't trust a soul at all in their guilds.
Needing an item and Wanting an item are two very different things.
If you are a mage and "need" AR. Go to a different source.
I'm talking about pages and skills.
If we run a dungeon and clothing drops... It's an instant sell.
I did this system for 1 year before one guild mate resented ME (This was a direct attack on me) to screw this system over.
Still a good system if you trust your guildmates.

Never realized everyone here was paranoid that people might be screwing you.
You do know if they sell it behind your back that means they fail the system and trust...

And the whole money is useless thing is my personal opinion from playing the game and amassing a mil a day doing dungeons and repairing without merchanting.


All in all.
Simply put my philosophy is: You got to give a little to get a little. Respect of your fellow guildmates is more important than money is it not?
And if you REALLY need money then just PM me and ill just give you a quick mini-guide on how to make money without gacha or merchanting...


And after careful reading of everyone's posts it seems everyone is talking about expensive items that are worth well over 5mil.
My Answer to that? Sell them. Good god if i'm going to run a hellish dungeon with a large group and give away an equip when it can be sold and split evenly.
I was under the impression it was pages and enchants.

[Justified]

Wow. Everyone here doesn't trust a soul at all in their guilds.

Never realized everyone here was paranoid that people might be screwing you.
You do know if they sell it behind your back that means they fail the system and trust...

Guilds gain new members. Do you instantly trust this member?
I also don't know the less active members very well. I'm sure all guilds with more than 15 or so people have had that situation where somebody asks "Hi are you new?" "No, I've been here a while. Lol."

It's not just about stealing either. Everybody in the guild has something they need/want money for. Personally, I'm ranking enchant, trying to recover items I lost from the server chaos, and feeding my new ego. I need money for everything I'm currently doing in game, and if I don't want to spend months doing it then amassing 1mil a day doesn't cut it. I need as much gold as I can from the run, but I don't want to shaft the other people in my party.

Selling and splitting evenly brings up the base questions again.
Does everybody deserve an equal cut? Even if most of the work was handled by 1 or 2 people out of the entire 8? I sure as hell wouldn't be entirely happy with that.
And what if we actually want the item worth 5mil+ and don't want to sell it? The point of dungeoning guilds is having people to run with so that you can get the best stuff, why run the dungeon and sell the item just so you can buy that same item later down the line? Having a system to distribute these things fairly can be extremely useful.

[Fumy]

You know I trust my members and I luv em so edit it and make it say everyone except Fumy D:
I make everyone that helps happy and don't just split up money wise :o Money isnt important anyway

[Aubog007]

Guilds gain new members. Do you instantly trust this member?

It's not just about stealing either. Everybody in the guild has something they need/want money for. Personally, I'm ranking enchant, trying to recover items I lost from the server chaos, and feeding my new ego. I need money for everything I'm currently doing in game, and if I don't want to spend months doing it then amassing 1mil a day doesn't cut it. I need as much gold as I can from the run, but I don't want to shaft the other people in my party.

Selling and splitting evenly brings up the base questions again.
Does everybody deserve an equal cut? Even if most of the work was handled by 1 or 2 people out of the entire 8? I sure as hell wouldn't be entirely happy with that.
And what if we actually want the item worth 5mil+ and don't want to sell it? The point of dungeoning guilds is having people to run with so that you can get the best stuff, why run the dungeon and sell the item just so you can buy that same item later down the line? Having a system to distribute these things fairly can be extremely useful.

Your opinions and my opinions are different. Neither one is right nor wrong.
My system states that if someone needs an expensive item that they should let the guild know days in advance. If someone states in the middle of the run they need something. They are SOL.

And for the whole money thing. I bought a lot of herbs back in my Ruairian days to get rank 1 potion making before 2nd place got rank 3. I hoarded enough money and spent enough money to have 25m in gold in G3. Everyone gets and uses money in their own ways. This is why I don't understand how people use up so much money so fast. Simple dungeons replenish that gold. Alby inter for 4, Fiodh Inter for 4.
Although I guess that's because I have loads more patience in this game than ANYONE I know.

[Justified]

Your opinions and my opinions are different. Neither one is right nor wrong.

Everyone gets and uses money in their own ways. This is why I don't understand how people use up so much money so fast. Simple dungeons replenish that gold. Alby inter for 4, Fiodh Inter for 4.

Not asserting that I'm right or that you're wrong, just that your system may not work for my guild in particular.

As far as I can tell, Hardmode dungeons are much more profitable than A4/F4. It can take 10+ of those runs just to snag a single page worth 1-2mil (which is still needed for guild members, so we wouldn't be selling it anyways), while a good Hardmode prize worth 2mil+ can usually be found in fewer runs. They're more fun and provide more exp as well.

[Aubog007]

Wasn't saying you asserted. Sorry for the implication. I said that because our opinions always seem to clash.

Not asserting that I'm right or that you're wrong, just that your system may not work for my guild in particular.

As far as I can tell, Hardmode dungeons are much more profitable than A4/F4. It can take 10+ of those runs just to snag a single page worth 1-2mil (which is still needed for guild members, so we wouldn't be selling it anyways), while a good Hardmode prize worth 2mil+ can usually be found in fewer runs. They're more fun and provide more exp as well.

Not everyone though is over total level 250
This account is freshly made and it's only 180.
I don't have experience in HM drop rates or profit rates so I can't really comment on that.
I can only comment on what I personally have done.

And I personally find A4/F4 to be a good learning experience for newer guildmates.

[Hiccup]

Wow. Everyone here doesn't trust a soul at all in their guilds.

Never realized everyone here was paranoid that people might be screwing you.
You do know if they sell it behind your back that means they fail the system and trust...

You got screwed over yourself, even though it was once still shows how easily trust can vanish. Besides in the larger guilds 100+ where members are coming and going (mostly newer members leaving) you can't exactly keep up with everything. If they stay for a month or so and earn the respect of the guild/me then I will give em a little. Recently in my guild we had to kick out one of the founding members because they kept instigating fights with the regular guildies. The regulars didn't really do anything wrong but this guy was just stuck on pissing at everyone, so we said goodbye.

Classic case of people turning on ya. :L Which is why trust is a huge issue.


My Answer to that? Sell them. Good god if i'm going to run a hellish dungeon with a large group and give away an equip when it can be sold and split evenly.
I was under the impression it was pages and enchants.
This seems the most practical and safe out of anything. If the guild leader sells it and splits the money then their is no chance of corruption/"theft" (Outside of the fact your giving away a mill or so.) But if your going after an item you could always have the guild leader pick a number and those who want it Dice Roll, whoever gets the number gets it. In case of a tie a new number is chosen and those left duke it out again.

[Seviraph]

I stopped reading after awhile because all the comments are pretty much filled with greed,

ideally it's "fair to split the reward" but that's only effective if noone in the party really needs it (the item being sold)

but when someone does need it, and you force them to "buy it" after running the dungeon with you, that just isn't fair
the reason people do dungeons for items is because they can't afford to actually buy them, it's especially not fair if they were the one that had the pass and put alot of effort into getting it.(also telling people they needed it first) but a good deal is when it comes to dungeons, the person that had the pass should be able to decide what happens to it, without him/her noone would be in that specific dungeon

also if the item is so important you shouldn't even be taking strangers with you
and if you're a real guild there wouldn't really be any distrust between members, unless the guild is just a bunch of people put into a guild not because they're friends but just to be a large guild

and I hate writing long posts cause at the end I'm not totally sure I make sense to people that read it <.<

cause if it doesn't require a pass, general it shouldn't be too difficult to spam it unless it's like Peaca, but then <_< Dragon Blades aren't that rare nowadays

[Intex]

I stopped reading after awhile because all the comments are pretty much filled with greed
We want our fair share, sorry for wanting some money.
Curare and Justin have helped me out a lot for free, I'd hardly describe them as greedy people.
I think you should describe this thread as cynical, not greedy.


the reason people do dungeons for items is because they can't afford to actually buy them
I don't know about you, but I dungeon for money.
When I run a dungeon with a friend and he gets the wooden needle blade, do I just give it to him for keeps so that he can sell it himself.


but when someone does need it, and you force them to "buy it" after running the dungeon with you, that just isn't fair
If the whole guild toils through a dungeon just so one person who needs it gets it, what about others who needed it?
What about all the repair costs and potion money? Yeah sure I'll let the guy keep his EJ3 page but if I died 15 times then I'd like SOME compensation.

Also

What is stopping a player from "needing" the rarest item in the loot pile, then moving it to a mule and pawning off the money? :v Untraceable.


also if the item is so important you shouldn't even be taking strangers with you
Not everyone has a lot of friends who will dungeon with them.
There's also urgency with pass time and tuesday bonus, if my pass is about to expire then I'll run with whatever help I can find.


and if you're a real guild there wouldn't really be any distrust between members
Growing guild need to recruit, there are new members people might not really know well.
If I don't trust him should I isolate him from our weekly guild run?
I will let him run to BUILD TRUST but that doesn't mean I trust him completely.


cause if it doesn't require a pass, general it shouldn't be too difficult to spam it unless it's like Peaca
???
Most rare loots require a pass.

[Grifter]

Our comments "pertain" to greed because neither I nor my guild members want to be lulled into a false sense of security, only to be duped by another player :awesome:

===


the reason people do dungeons for items is because they can't afford to actually buy them, it's especially not fair if they were the one that had the pass and put alot of effort into getting it.(also telling people they needed it first) but a good deal is when it comes to dungeons, the person that had the pass should be able to decide what happens to it, without him/her noone would be in that specific dungeon

This is completely wrong. I don't run Rabbie Adv. because I can't afford IS2; I run the dungeon so I can profit. The system we wish to establish is one that will evenly distribute "big game" profits so that there are no disputes when it comes time to cash out.


and if you're a real guild there wouldn't really be any distrust between members, unless the guild is just a bunch of people put into a guild not because they're friends but just to be a large guild

Another bout of naivete. Sure, our guild is tight knit, but how well do we /actually/ know eachother? Very few of us are connected outside of the game, and though we'd all like to believe that people are good, many players change once they get their hands on some serious loot.

This is why we wish to implement a drop system, so there is no room for disputing how the drops are split, whether or not to split, etc.
Saves lots of headaches especially when dealing with end-game drops.

[Intex]

We're all so cynical :D

[Aubog007]

And why does noone KNOW what to do with the items or enchants or pages in this thread until AFTER it drops.
Assign who gets what if said item drops BEFORE the run occurs. Not during or after. (unless i am misunderstanding.)
Or else rampant complaining and moaning will occur. People complain the MOST after a dungeon is over because of the cost of dungeoning... You knew what you were going into before hand... Don't complain about potions or repair costs... I never do.

People always say harsh things at the end of a dungeon because of rage or anger from dying or using too many potions.

I used 30 Dura and 400 Hp 30's and 150 SP 30's from rabbie adv spam yesterday and i was killed over and over.
Didn't care in the bit after it was over. The game is made to be a time occupier and to have fun. Not to fret over.



You got screwed over yourself, even though it was once still shows how easily trust can vanish. Besides in the larger guilds 100+ where members are coming and going (mostly newer members leaving) you can't exactly keep up with everything. If they stay for a month or so and earn the respect of the guild/me then I will give em a little. Recently in my guild we had to kick out one of the founding members because they kept instigating fights with the regular guildies. The regulars didn't really do anything wrong but this guy was just stuck on pissing at everyone, so we said goodbye.

Classic case of people turning on ya. :L Which is why trust is a huge issue.


This seems the most practical and safe out of anything. If the guild leader sells it and splits the money then their is no chance of corruption/"theft" (Outside of the fact your giving away a mill or so.) But if your going after an item you could always have the guild leader pick a number and those who want it Dice Roll, whoever gets the number gets it. In case of a tie a new number is chosen and those left duke it out again.

That incident made everyone else in the guild grew together ironically.


Oh i apologize if i sounded brash or rude. Was not my intention.

[Arrionso]

For us it's always been whoever kills the monster/opens the chest with the item keeps it. Luck of the draw. This person can then decide if they want to hand it to another guild member, split its profit, or just use it for themselves. No hard feelings either way.

There are situations where we do specific dungeons for a certain item though. In these instances we all agree to give the item we're looking for (EJ, IS, AR8, etc etc) to the person who needs it or has been looking for it for some time. If no one needs it then we just sell it and split the profit amongst the folks who ran the dungeon or agree to hand it to a fellow guildie who needs it but didn't have a chance to run with us.

We've never run into situations where a member would "steal" the item we were looking for either. Everyone's always been pretty laid back about these things. Though if it were to ever occur, we'd be down one member. It all comes down to trust and maturity.

[Aubog007]

For us it's always been whoever kills the monster/opens the chest with the item keeps it. Luck of the draw. This person can then decide if they want to hand it to another guild member, split its profit, or just use it for themselves. No hard feelings either way.

There are situations where we do specific dungeons for a certain item though. In these instances we all agree to give the item we're looking for (EJ, IS, AR8, etc etc) to the person who needs it or has been looking for it for some time. If no one needs it then we just sell it and split the profit amongst the folks who ran the dungeon or agree to hand it to a fellow guildie who needs it but didn't have a chance to run with us.
We've never run into situations where a member would "steal" the item we were looking for either. Everyone's always been pretty laid back about these things.

Pretty much how it is. If i don't make a rule the drop is FFA. Unless it's worth more than 1m

[Creampuff]

I've never really had a problem with looting; that being said, I don't run very many dungeons where the drops are potentially worth over 1 million. In the one case where I've had help running A4 for AR8, I was able to get the page for no cost since I had already indicated that I was looking to complete my AR book (I trained range before melee). The help + the free page was definitely much appreciated, and I am very grateful to the guildmates and one stranger who ran with me.

When it comes to more expensive drops, I'm pretty laid back about the money split, but to me it would make sense to split any items that no one intended for personal use. If they ran the dungeon with the intention of keeping one of the potential drops, then ideally they should make that known to all the runners well beforehand.

@Zat: I think last week worked out okay; Bun was able to keep a little more of the cash since it was from his chest, but the other runners still got more or less an even share. =) I'm pretty happy about how the whole thing ended.

[Zyrus]

This is partially why players like Trigger and myself solo dungeons when we really want something from it. Generally we are the strongest member and do most of the hard work in party runs. Pretty much most of the runs I do I kill more than half the mobs even when there is 8 people running. But at the end normally we just let whoever gets it keep it because you look like a jerk saying "Look, I did the heavy lifting pass me the rare item." This is why I created the Mana Master in the first place. Not because I don't like running with friends (still do if they are strong) but because I needed a way for me to get out what I put in in effort. I can't handle running normal dungeons anymore unless I am teaching a player how to do something. They are just too easy and I basically end up soloing with a tag along unless I consciously sit in a corner in some rooms to let them play.

[Justified]

This is partially why players like Trigger and myself solo dungeons when we really want something from it.

I saw this coming when Archi had the last post. xD

But anyways, in the long term where guild members are constantly running with each other, it makes sense to have a system that fairly distributes gold or items to each person. "Splitting equally" can work in single finds or when nobody wants the item, but if you continuously split equally with somebody who you think doesn't deserve it for whatever reason then resentment grows. The scales are also tipped when somebody claims they want an item - I could easily say I "need/want" Lion Hunter every time it drops. People commonly have more than 1 weapon, what's my limit on how many I should get?


iirc - Zyrus has a dungeon running partner. He has a very simple 2-man system on what happens to the loot. A guild system is the same thing, but has considerations for more people, and for people who aren't currently in the run.

[Zyrus]

I've type casted myself into the selfish soloing higher level player. ouch.

KISS Method: Keep it simple stupid. 2 man run (predetermine) 5-8 FFA.

[BobYoMeowMeow]

Put the diablo loot system
but they're gonna have to redo the naming and triggers of all the equipment
and the item system itself

[pataterose]

when i hunt for money im usualy doing so alone.

when i go into a dungeon because someone needs something in it, we all decide what drops goes to who before going in it (if someone doesn't agree, he can leave), as most valuable (all in most case) are known.

i think its important to do dungeons that are of your level. don't try ciar adv hm when you just got your lvl250, odds are you will be leeching off of someone (if all the party is around 250, sure, but its gonna be hella long xD). As long as you dont bring underpowered people, nobody should whine about doing all the work.

[Zyrus]

I don't whine about underpowered people its underpowered dungeons I hate. And I only run dungeons with others for fun not for items (unless I'm helping a friend get a specific item). I do typically avoid going into dungeons with people less than 1k as it usually ends up with the pre-formentioned results.

[Seviraph]

<_< like I said I don't like long posts, at least me making them- I don't mind reading them at all,

anyways while reading the reply keep in mind, I was sorta thinking of runs where, people that needed the specific item, got the pass/ is the one that has the pass (thus having more right to get the item in the end)




We want our fair share, sorry for wanting some money.
Curare and Justin have helped me out a lot for free, I'd hardly describe them as greedy people.
I think you should describe this thread as cynical, not greedy.

I guess I did use the wrong word, but that was the what I thought off the top of my head at the time
and I'm not sure if I mentioned (cause I had to retype the post) I usually keep in mind to get at least enough gold to be able to repair my stuff from the run,

and I typed that with the idea that usually you're not killing anything if you're not making sufficient amount of money in the dungeon,that and the end chest should give a good amount of money enough for repairs and etc (so if you didn't lose any dura, or exp what exactly did you lose? and how is it "your fair share" if you're just sitting around (I understand people might die before being able to kill something or they get "KS-ed" but if that's the case you shouldn't be in the dungeon, and if you get KS'd might as well let them do the work


I don't know about you, but I dungeon for money.
When I run a dungeon with a friend and he gets the wooden needle blade, do I just give it to him for keeps so that he can sell it himself.

I dungeon for money, but I don't necessarily do the harder dungeons for money, (actually I barely do anything above Intermediate, counting hardmode as above regular Intermediate) I tend to do dungeons only if I can have a casual time doing them xD



If the whole guild toils through a dungeon just so one person who needs it gets it, what about others who needed it?
What about all the repair costs and potion money? Yeah sure I'll let the guy keep his EJ3 page but if I died 15 times then I'd like SOME compensation.


I think I've answered that with my first quote, but also you decided to go in to his run, and this is also assuming HE was the reason you're even able to get in (cause he had the pass, and could easily have asked someone else, if you didn't volunteer) all of that isn't dependent on the person just because you could've just said no


Not everyone has a lot of friends who will dungeon with them.
There's also urgency with pass time and tuesday bonus, if my pass is about to expire then I'll run with whatever help I can find.

I suppose I also don't fully understand that because I usually am able to get friends to help, and if not so be it, no big deal (and I think this thread was sorta geared towards the idea that people are in a guild, and thus they DO have the people for it)


Growing guild need to recruit, there are new members people might not really know well.
If I don't trust him should I isolate him from our weekly guild run?
I will let him run to BUILD TRUST but that doesn't mean I trust him completely.

also as I've said to not bring strangers to important dungeon runs/(if the the item is that important to get)



???
Most rare loots require a pass.

... that was sorta the point of me saying that (but also considering Shadow Missions, cause they don't really require any passes, and they sometimes do drop something good)

ok, yeah I really don't like long posts (last time you'll see me in this thread xD, not looking back so sorry if some of it does sound stupid)

[Syrphid]

I stopped reading after awhile because all the comments are pretty much filled with greed,

ideally it's "fair to split the reward" but that's only effective if noone in the party really needs it (the item being sold)

but when someone does need it, and you force them to "buy it" after running the dungeon with you, that just isn't fair
the reason people do dungeons for items is because they can't afford to actually buy them, it's especially not fair if they were the one that had the pass and put alot of effort into getting it.(also telling people they needed it first) but a good deal is when it comes to dungeons, the person that had the pass should be able to decide what happens to it, without him/her noone would be in that specific dungeon

also if the item is so important you shouldn't even be taking strangers with you
and if you're a real guild there wouldn't really be any distrust between members, unless the guild is just a bunch of people put into a guild not because they're friends but just to be a large guild

and I hate writing long posts cause at the end I'm not totally sure I make sense to people that read it <.<

cause if it doesn't require a pass, general it shouldn't be too difficult to spam it unless it's like Peaca, but then <_< Dragon Blades aren't that rare nowadays

I am currently hunting destruction es to complete my demi lich 2hander. This es drops in siren hard mode, a dungeon I definitely need help with. So I get a bunch of guildies together and run through siren a few times until destruction drops. They give it to me since I was working for it. The next day we run an f4 together and fb10 drops. We cut and sell. Should I get a cut?

Under the normal cut & sell + donate to the needy system that everyone is so used to, yes I would be entitled to my cut. But wouldn't it be more fair if I seceded my portion, since in a way, the others gave me theirs on the previous siren hunt? The others are not in a position to ask me to do so. I normally would not.

You see, by implementing a loot system we actually protect the selfless from those who are more needy.

I am unsure why we are being accused of greed. The whole point of a loot distribution system is just to hand out loot in the most equitable way possible.

[SkyWyvern]

I stopped reading after awhile because all the comments are pretty much filled with greed,

ideally it's "fair to split the reward" but that's only effective if noone in the party really needs it (the item being sold)

but when someone does need it, and you force them to "buy it" after running the dungeon with you, that just isn't fair
the reason people do dungeons for items is because they can't afford to actually buy them, it's especially not fair if they were the one that had the pass and put alot of effort into getting it.(also telling people they needed it first) but a good deal is when it comes to dungeons, the person that had the pass should be able to decide what happens to it, without him/her noone would be in that specific dungeon

also if the item is so important you shouldn't even be taking strangers with you
and if you're a real guild there wouldn't really be any distrust between members, unless the guild is just a bunch of people put into a guild not because they're friends but just to be a large guild

and I hate writing long posts cause at the end I'm not totally sure I make sense to people that read it <.<

cause if it doesn't require a pass, general it shouldn't be too difficult to spam it unless it's like Peaca, but then <_< Dragon Blades aren't that rare nowadays

This man deserves an award. Listen to him.

[Tedio]

I would just designate who gets the item, when it drops, the person could just trade it to whoever needs it.
I doubt alot of people would just screw a entire guild over, If they wanter the item they could just ask them for another few runs or something....

[Justified]

Consider another hypothetical then.

A wants several items.
B is in a run where item drops, but it goes to A.
B is offline, and the guild runs several more dungeons with A.
B gets on and joins another run where an item A wants is found, it goes to A.
B again misses more runs because s/he isn't as active as everybody else.
B gets on again. An item drops that both s/he and A want. Because of the several runs A was in where B wasn't, they decide to give it to A.

B gets upset that A gets everything. Guild is confused because A participated in several runs where loot was shared with other members. They call B paranoid. B gets angry and leaves the guild.


Often times, people aren't aware how discontented people are with how splits are handled. When 6 of your guildmates agree to give somebody an item, most people would just stay silent even if they don't think it's fair - and it may not be. If you take every run on an individual run-by-run basis, you may be shafting somebody similar to the above scenario without intending to do so.
A good system would eliminate the spur judgement in designating who gets what. Since parties don't always consist of the same people, effort vs reward can be extremely high for some and abysmally low for others.

[Aubog007]

Consider another hypothetical then.

A wants several items.
B is in a run where item drops, but it goes to A.
B is offline, and the guild runs several more dungeons with A.
B gets on and joins another run where an item A wants is found, it goes to A.
B again misses more runs because s/he isn't as active as everybody else.
B gets on again. An item drops that both s/he and A want. Because of the several runs A was in where B wasn't, they decide to give it to A.

B gets upset that A gets everything. Guild is confused because A participated in several runs where loot was shared with other members. They call B paranoid. B gets angry and leaves the guild.


Often times, people aren't aware how discontented people are with how splits are handled. When 6 of your guildmates agree to give somebody an item, most people would just stay silent even if they don't think it's fair - and it may not be. If you take every run on an individual run-by-run basis, you may be shafting somebody similar to the above scenario without intending to do so.
A good system would eliminate the spur judgement in designating who gets what. Since parties don't always consist of the same people, effort vs reward can be extremely high for some and abysmally low for others.

Which is why i enjoy my system.
Gotta figure it out before-hand of the run.
I've been in this situation where someone couldn't do something because their computer was unable to actually function there. Guild gets the item that person needs but someone at the last second wanted it and then the guild gave said item to person who wanted it at the last second. Is it the first person's fault their computer could not handle it? I left the guild that i was in for a year and a half...Can't stand it when people change their mind because the item of value actually drops.
I swore never to let that happen with any guild i ran or had large authority in. (This was in a different game)


I'm actually not immune to greed. When i get the item that someone called for before the run began... I IMMEDIATELY trade it to them before the greed in me sets in.

[Ekaterin]

If you're running a dungeon for a page for a skill for a specific member, they get the page. Usually, they provide the pass as well.

If you're running for profit (often glowing, rabbie adv, or fiodh 4), sell the page and split the money evenly, after accounting for expenses to statue provider and designated seller.

If you run a very difficult dungeon and get a high-value (say 3M+) drop to sell, I split with the party, but the lucky person who got the drop gets the lion's share. If it's a good but lower value item, chest opener gets the item.

I don't generally run with leeches. My new guild was made of people about my level so none of us is really ever leeching off the stronger members. We all kick ass.

[Syrphid]

Here is yet another scenario which is not handled well by the current cut and share system.

Player A helps out in many guild runs, giving away cuts in ar8, fb10, etc., so that his guildies can use them.

Player A logs on 2 minutes before a super rare page hunt is about to take place for profit, and does less than his share of the work (for reasons like rl afk and lag). That super rare page drops, and player A could use it, but is not in a position to ask for it, even though he deserves it because of his previous generosity.


This man deserves an award. Listen to him.

That dude's already been rebutted multiple times. Until he or you or someone else steps up to defend his words, I think it's fair to say he doesn't know what he's talking about.

In any event, I feel like a lot of people in this thread don't understand how resentment can build up even among close guildies who are not particularly materialistic.

The question isn't, does the current cut and sell system function, but, is it the best system?

[Justified]

If you run a very difficult dungeon and get a high-value (say 3M+) drop to sell, I split with the party, but the lucky person who got the drop gets the lion's share. If it's a good but lower value item, chest opener gets the item.

Say a guild finds an item they're looking to sell for big bucks on the 20th run. A person who attended the first 19 runs didn't make it for the 20th, so a different person took the spot. According to the common policy, they earned in one run what everybody else took 20 runs to get. Maybe it even ended up in their chest, meaning they get an even larger cut while doing less than 5% of the work. Meanwhile, the original person ends up with nothing despite all their hard work.

I wouldn't be very happy if somebody else got a lot for nothing while I got nothing for a lot.
They didn't leech or anything, but the distribution is still imbalanced.

[Syrphid]

I ran a siren hm dungeon with guildies back when I was in BANANA. A destruction es dropped at the end for one of my guildies, who didn't want it. I asked if I could buy it from him, but he chose to give it to another friend, who was one of the founding members, and I guess more popular than I was.

I don't resent either of them personally, I mean, gifting wasn't against the rules. Whoever the es dropped for owned it, and could do whatever they wanted with it. I just felt that, since I worked as hard as my friend did, am I not equally entitled to it?

In the end, after moving on to another guild, I'm still looking for destruction es. I got none of the loot, while my friend received all of it, because I was less popular. I don't feel like popularity should be a factor in loot distribution. I'm not really into endgame equips and all, but I honestly feel some resentment about that. It shouldn't've been that way, and I feel it can be better.

[Bankai231]

I ran a siren hm dungeon with guildies back when I was in BANANA. A destruction es dropped at the end for one of my guildies, who didn't want it. I asked if I could buy it from him, but he chose to give it to another friend, who was one of the founding members, and I guess more popular than I was.

I don't resent either of them personally, I mean, gifting wasn't against the rules. Whoever the es dropped for owned it, and could do whatever they wanted with it. I just felt that, since I worked as hard as my friend did, am I not equally entitled to it?

In the end, after moving on to another guild, I'm still looking for destruction es. I got none of the loot, while my friend received all of it, because I was less popular. I don't feel like popularity should be a factor in loot distribution. I'm not really into endgame equips and all, but I honestly feel some resentment about that. It shouldn't've been that way, and I feel it can be better.

This is so true. Im kind of a guild hopper. I dont stay in the same place often. Sometimes people will just forget about me because "So and so" Is so cool and great.

But yeah I think if the person spent the time to hunt the pass down and then asked his guildies to run it with him to get a item he should have the right for it.
Its different if you were just leeching off a random pass.

[Kurezan]

If you're running a dungeon for a page for a skill for a specific member, they get the page. Usually, they provide the pass as well.

If you're running for profit (often glowing, rabbie adv, or fiodh 4), sell the page and split the money evenly, after accounting for expenses to statue provider and designated seller.

If you run a very difficult dungeon and get a high-value (say 3M+) drop to sell, I split with the party, but the lucky person who got the drop gets the lion's share. If it's a good but lower value item, chest opener gets the item.



Thats pretty much how I like things in dungeons. And how I share out the loot.