How would you drain the economy? [Archive] - Mabination - Mabinogi and Vindictus Fansite, Guides and Community

Ryozu

07-31-2011, 03:15 PM

Yikes, you guys scare me. Glad some of you aren't in charge over at Nexon. Wipe all items and gold? Never heard of sentimental value have you? A complete wipe? Only been playing this game and working on this character since open beta, that wouldn't make me rage or anything, and I do play legit. Increased Fees? Then I'd be even more broke than I already am. I have a hard enough time keeping 200k in the bank. Make UG stones purchasable and then lower their success rate? Suddenly I only have 49k in the bank and nothing to show for my 3 upgrade stones.

Unfortunately, there is no FAIR way to get rid of the excess gold in the economy. But there are at least ways that don't outright hurt players. Putting upgrade stones on an NPC merchant would be one thing they could do. Price much higher, but don't make them less effective as that would hurt anyone with legit gold who could only buy a couple. This idea also has the drawback of giving tangible benefit to those with duped gold in the form of stat increases.

Personally, I'd put random dye amps on Walter, temporarily, for 100 to 200k each. While it might not seem fair that those gold dupers can dye their clothes any color they want, it's not really hurting the rest of us for them to do so.

Could be other items like that they could use. Just that the key points is that it's consumable, high priced, and desirable. Not giving a tangible stat benefit would be nice to keep it fair-ish as well.

Osayidan

07-31-2011, 03:20 PM

Tara auction much more frequently with items people really want.

Cho

07-31-2011, 03:48 PM

Tara auction much more frequently with items people really want.

This. People seem to overbid by 1-2x more than it really is in the economy at times. I remember my guild leader bought a Spike 10/16 Beholder Sword from the auction for 8.2m.

What about the people that actually play with legit gold though? Wouldn't it hurt those particular players in general?

And if they did increase the bank deposit fees, what about those who'll deposit 9 gold at a time to avoid the fees if they're desperate enough...D:?

I dunno about the 10% of the Upgrade Stones though...It feels just like you're enchanting a rank 2 enchant with Blessed Magic Powder or even normal Magic Powder and it almost always doesn't come out right when you need it.
Especially those that want to go from R/S 6...I wonder what the percentage would end up being to blow up your precious weapon?

Or everyone could just shove all their gold in the Tara Donation Box and the items in the Donation box can be the higher demand items, such as Vanalen Wears and Hebona Robe, since those seem to go from 10-20m here at the moment lol...
And it goes to charity practically...I guess? D:

Royale

07-31-2011, 04:00 PM

most of the ways listed would punish they legit players and in fact reward the dupers more, the best nexon can do is releasing rare items more often with events or quests instead of gachas or other nx items, for example the upcoming puzzle master rematch event, hopefully it would offset the ridiculous price of wingbows/highlanders.

Okitaru

07-31-2011, 04:08 PM

There's no valid way, SMs and TMs give pure gold each run, that will easily outdo transaction fee's even for rich folk very easily. Removing everything would just make the game die, they'd be better off shutting the game down.

Only legitimate way: Learn to live in the new economy.

Rozel

07-31-2011, 04:25 PM

I'm fine with how things are, no need to get rid of dupers or change how things cost.

Tropa

07-31-2011, 04:31 PM

Make upgrade stones moremoremore common in elite missions and hards too.

TheKartheus

07-31-2011, 05:39 PM

Release a gachapon that costs 10 million in-game gold with the promice of it holding very rare items, but make these items have the same drop rate as the Nao coin.

Justified

07-31-2011, 05:40 PM

TheKartheus

07-31-2011, 05:44 PM

Erase all gold currently existing, including checks.

Rich people with legit gold could have upwards of 20x the average person's gold. Now everybody has twice as much.

People who had wealth before are already "poor" now, so they shouldn't complain. People who didn't have money are just going back to normal.

Lol I know a couple legitimate players who aren't "poor" now. The people who buy gold then buy stuff for high prices, which lets the merchants stay just as wealthy as they always were. The only difference in the economy is the poor people are poorer and the rich people are richer. And NOT neccasarily illegitemately.

Fyois

07-31-2011, 05:54 PM

The point of this wasn't to imply permanent changes, just temporary things to get the people with a lot of duped money to spend it so it would dissappear forever.

Justified

07-31-2011, 06:11 PM

Lol I know a couple legitimate players who aren't "poor" now. The people who buy gold then buy stuff for high prices, which lets the merchants stay just as wealthy as they always were. The only difference in the economy is the poor people are poorer and the rich people are richer. And NOT neccasarily illegitemately.

Anybody who has touched illegitimate gold has gained their riches illegitimately. Regardless of how they obtained it.

If I hear about some thugs counterfeiting money and I walk up to them and offer them something valuable for a ludicrous amount of money, (say $200,000 for some normal car) and they agree to it because they can just make more, then even though I forked over a nice car I'm still getting my money unfairly.

Which is why a gold wipe would be a good idea.

radionoise

07-31-2011, 06:15 PM

Perfectio

07-31-2011, 06:17 PM

The fact is, we have to accept that dupers/non-legit-rich have extreme amounts of buying power. And they're going to derive some kind of advantage from it. So what is to be done?

1: Better auction items, even overpowered ones.. Sure, if you put Steel Needle Dignified Dustin Gaunts or X-Grade Wyllow Horn Falcatas or Fierce Ribbons in auction, then the dupers have bought extra power, which is bad. However, it will drain gold out of the economy quickly (and you can change their repair modifiers so they die to attrition just a bit faster). Or put special enchants on those items that drastically increase repair costs. Either way, while it's not an ideal solution, I'd rather have a duper turn his 200m gold into one broken enchanted item.

2: Add an option to S and R upgrades that increases the success chance to 75%, in exchange for paying 300k for 1-3 and a 50% chance for 500k for 4-5. 5-6 can be upgraded at a 25% chance, for 1m a pop, but it won't destroy the weapon, simply set it back to 5.

3: Better donation rewards. Probably fashionogi items and such.

4. Or better yet, make things like Vanalens and stuff available in a NPC store for like 9m. (just for fun, the NPC only spawns in Hard/Elite Theater Missions at a 10% chance after completion, so dunby-afkers have to get off their asses and do something)

If I hear about some thugs counterfeiting money and I walk up to them and offer them something valuable for a ludicrous amount of money, (say $200,000 for some normal car) and they agree to it because they can just make more, then even though I forked over a nice car I'm still getting my money unfairly.

The counterfeiting example is interesting - usually when it happens the government attempts to recall the bank notes which were most likely to be counterfeited. However, can't really do that in Mabi. BUT, you can eliminate the most likely store of duped gold - checks. By only eliminating checks, as opposed to all gold, you don't hit middle-low income playes at all, and you hit the upper-income players (people between 10-20m) only slightly. And while this can be circumvented by mailing checks to accounts and depositing them, this isn't particularly practical with the massive amounts we're dealing with, and you'd have to see it coming in order to do so.
Still, it's better to let the 9 guilty come out ahead than to punish 1 innocent even in this case. And also, better gold sinks provide more reward to people who can grind legitimately.

Fact is though, removing all that gold creates a new, bigger problem - it sends us back to the early part in the year where nothing could get sold, rare items were virtually useless because anyone who could afford them already had them; something like a Glory Sword would literally get NPCed because nobody had the money to buy it - the only way you could make money selling items was running TMs and hoping a highlander item or a volcano dropped for you. Or being a legitimately end-game player who can run Peaca and such and get those drops. Or being about to gacha for the few items that do sell. Personally, even though you see those ridiculous bids for end-game items, the average player is in better shape than they were then. Then, the average player was living SM to SM, barely making enough to keep his equips repaired. There were long waiting lists for farms because most players made more on farms than they did from a whole week of missions (btw, the same people who abuse duping now would make multiple accounts and download bots to keep their farms running - cheaters gonna cheat) Now, most of the inflation is in end-game items (and dyes, but people have been *****ing about dyes since G9).

That was overall much worse than what we had now. Right now, the market is in much better shape than it was then, all that needs to happen is have the dupes patched and more effective gold sinks to cream a bit off the top.

Neko

07-31-2011, 06:31 PM

a 10 million fee every time a person hacks the game,

Kenero

07-31-2011, 06:37 PM

Special Accessories that you can equipped in a special Inventory Slot that can go with any clothes or armor. You can equip up to 2 of them.

Ring of Dagda (Strength and HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (Dexterity and Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (Alchemy Damage and Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (Intelligence and Mana)

*These 4 types of accessories are a reward for finishing a generation but you can only PICK one. However they are tradable.

Each ring can be upgraded at the Special Upgraded Anvil. To upgrade you need to use Cheap, Average, Fine, and Finest Refinement stones which can be bought/upgraded. Cheap ones comes from a Blacksmith/Weapon Shop NPC for 10,000 per stone.

Upgrading

Base (Level 1)

Ring of Dagda (+50 Strength and +50 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+50 Dexterity and +100 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+10 Water, +5 Fire Alchemy Damage and +20 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+50 Intelligence and +50 Mana)

Requirements: Level 1500 total
Money Cost: 30,000
Upgrade Material Needed: None
Chance to Upgrade: None

Level 2

Ring of Dagda (+1) (+70 Strength and +70 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+1) (+70 Dexterity and +150 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+1) (+15 Water, +10 Fire Alchemy Damage and +30 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+1) (+70 Intelligence and +60 Mana)

Requirements: Level 1200 total
Money Cost: 30,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 1x Cheap Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 70%

Level 3

Ring of Dagda (+2) (+90 Strength and +90 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+2) (+90 Dexterity and +200 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+2) (+20 Water, +15 Fire Alchemy Damage and +50 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+2) (+90 Intelligence and +90 Mana)

Requirements: Level 1000 total
Money Cost: 60,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 3x Cheap Refinement Stone, 1x Average Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 60%

Level 4

Ring of Dagda (+3) (+120 Strength and +120 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+3) (+120 Dexterity and +250 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+3) (+25 Water, +20 Fire Alchemy Damage and +70 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+3) (+120 Intelligence and +120 Mana)

Requirements: Level 900 total
Money Cost: 70,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 4x Cheap Refinement Stone, 3x Average Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 40%

Level 5

Ring of Dagda (+4) (+150 Strength and +150 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+4) (+150 Dexterity and +300 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+4) (+30 Water, +25 Fire Alchemy Damage and +100 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+4) (+150 Intelligence and +150 Mana)

Requirements: Level 700 total
Money Cost: 70,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 5x Cheap Refinement Stone, 5x Average Refinement Stone, 1x Fine Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 30%

Level 6

Ring of Dagda (+5) (+200 Strength and +200 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+5) (+200 Dexterity and +350 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+5) (+35 Water, +30 Fire Alchemy Damage and +150 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+5) (+200 Intelligence and +200 Mana)

Requirements: Level 500 total
Money Cost: 100,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 8x Average Refinement Stone, 3x Fine Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 25%

Level 7

Ring of Dagda (+6) (+250 Strength and +250 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+6) (+250 Dexterity and +400 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+6) (+40 Water, +35 Fire Alchemy Damage and +200 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+6) (+250 Intelligence and +300 Mana)

Requirements: Level 300 total
Money Cost: 170,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 6x Fine Refinement Stone, 1x Finest Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 20%

Level 8

Ring of Dagda (+7) (+350 Strength and +350 HP)
Armlet of the Highlander Uliasis (+7) (+350 Dexterity and +500 Range Distance)
Insignia Alchemia of the Lennox (+7) (+50 Water, +45 Fire Alchemy Damage and +300 Stamina)
Necklace of Maelona (+7) (+350 Intelligence and +400 Mana)

Requirements: Level 100 total
Money Cost: 250,000
Upgrade Material Needed: 4x Finest Refinement Stone
Chance to Upgrade: 10%

---

Notes to Upgrade

*If you FAIL to upgrade, you will GO Back to the Base or Level 1. So if you fail from going from +5 to +6, you will drop back to +1.

*The Higher level the ring, the more stats it gives and the less total required to upgrade.

Synthesis Recipe

The Average, Fine, and Finest Refinement Stones can only be made through Synthesis. To create them requires the following:

3 x Cheap Refinement Stone = 1 Average Refinement Stone (Base Success 80%)
3 x Average Refinement Stone = 1 Fine Refinement Stone (Base Success 30%)
3 x Fine Refinement Stone = 1 Finest Refinement Stone (Base Success 20%)

-- Special NX Items (From Nexon's Point of View) --

*Sapphire Heart - 1,000 NX
- A rare item which contains nature's spirit, in which if you wash it on your Special Accessories, you will get an additional +15% success rate. Upon a success, the Special Effect will disappear and a new one must be purchased. It will not disappear upon failure, however it won't stop the item from dropping to Level 1 if it fails.

*Heart of Fire - 1,200 NX
- A rare item which was originally a Sapphire Heart that was modified through the use and study of Alchemy. While the Modification of the Spirits inside the heart isn't as powerful as the original one, it will still grant an aditional +5% success rate and SHOULD the item fail, it will drop down 1 level instead of falling back to base level of 1. However, the effect will stay with the item, even upon success, however once the item fails to upgrade, the item's effect will disappear as well.

--

Good way to tempt those with a lot of money and NX to upgrade their two special accessories for power, while draining their money and NX. The tempting power of having a +7 and the path to get there will be tough indeed. Only those with a lot of resources or a lot of luck will even see a +7 (unless they glitch it >>).

Syrion

07-31-2011, 06:50 PM

increase transaction fees

make more items synth-able

Claudia

07-31-2011, 07:15 PM

One obvious problem with increasing fees, though, is all you're doing is hurting legit players and just helping dupers/gold buyers more.

And, you're just encouraging people to want to dupe/buy gold if you raise prices.

Syrion

07-31-2011, 07:19 PM

ull pay more transaction fees when u have more money to move

Claudia

07-31-2011, 07:25 PM

Syrion

07-31-2011, 07:33 PM

That doesn't make sense. [Your train of thought and the literal sentence you typed.]

How does charging more money to legit players who have little to no gold do any good?
Like I said, people who have mass amounts of duped gold have...mass amounts of duped gold.

transaction fees are a percentage of the amount of money your transferring

so the more money you have to move around, the more fees you are going to pay

moving 1mil will cost you 5%=50,000

moving 100mil will cost you 5%=5,000,000

so you become poorer over time based on the amount of gold you have

Osayidan

07-31-2011, 07:35 PM

Which is why a gold wipe would be a good idea.

Not if they want to keep their players.

Small rollbacks from things like sever crashes is horrible and everyone gets upset about it, a handful quit from loosing something and being fed up with the constant issues.

A planned gold wipe, or wipe of any kind, in any MMO, would be the death of that game. There's very few people who actually accept losing their hard work in an MMO. Some people like starting over once in a while, and others might accept it as a solution to the problem, but from the perspective of running a business and wanting people to give you their money, it's suicide to do this.

The only viable solution is gold sinks, the kind people actually want to throw their gold at to get something in return. That, combined with actually investigating those who obtained ridiculous amounts of gold (guild who bid 900m on housing would be a damn good start).

frozenwilderness

07-31-2011, 07:45 PM

I don't really see why the economy needs money drained out of it if the duping's stopped.

Hatsunechan

07-31-2011, 07:51 PM

Because people are still walking around with like 100m in gold. That's more than enough to get anything you want and a good merchant would be able to earn it back.

Claudia

07-31-2011, 08:00 PM

oh, for fees I was thinking more along the lines of repair fees

transaction fees: yes

TheKartheus

07-31-2011, 08:00 PM

Not if they want to keep their players.

Small rollbacks from things like sever crashes is horrible and everyone gets upset about it, a handful quit from loosing something and being fed up with the constant issues.

A planned gold wipe, or wipe of any kind, in any MMO, would be the death of that game. There's very few people who actually accept losing their hard work in an MMO. Some people like starting over once in a while, and others might accept it as a solution to the problem, but from the perspective of running a business and wanting people to give you their money, it's suicide to do this.

The only viable solution is gold sinks, the kind people actually want to throw their gold at to get something in return. That, combined with actually investigating those who obtained ridiculous amounts of gold (guild who bid 900m on housing would be a damn good start).

This. Wiping all the gold is a HORRIBLE idea. The real-life example doesn't even work, because there are just too many differences. If someone in-game decides to sell something for much cheaper, it will simply be re-sold for a higher price. It's not even something conscious, I guarentee that every person has touched illigitamate gold though. You may say this is why it should be deleted, but that doesn't work either. People should not get punished simply because they are intelligent enough to take advantage of the situation.

If you want to say that, then they should just do an entire rollback on the game to 2 months ago. Everything someone bought with illigitamate gold helped their leveling, which means they got their AP illigitamately too. You could take this to the extreme, but it's really not that extreme at all. In Alexina anyway, the economy is already stabilizing, because like I said, the gold buyers BUY things with their gold, and the people selling get lots of gold as well. Everyone has lots of gold except for newbies, who can make gold easily by selling random stuff by running dungeons.

The only thing duping does to change the economy is make it less profitable to get money from sm's/farms/rafting/etc.

frozenwilderness

07-31-2011, 08:03 PM

Because people are still walking around with like 100m in gold. That's more than enough to get anything you want and a good merchant would be able to earn it back.Your point being?

BecomeMeguca

07-31-2011, 08:28 PM

I don't really see why the economy needs money drained out of it if the duping's stopped.

Who said it was fixed? Supposedly some hackers in Ruairi can even dupe urn gachas.....just that its not being released to the public anymore

Fyois

07-31-2011, 09:41 PM

Who said it was fixed? Supposedly some hackers in Ruairi can even dupe urn gachas.....just that its not being released to the public anymore

Duping would not be an issue if the idiots would stop giving out the secrets and just let the small group of hackers exist instead of turning the whole population into script kiddies.

Kyubey

07-31-2011, 10:04 PM

easymode : trace dupers, gold sellers and buyers and ban them all
lawsuits against gold selling sites and their hosts to force them to close and prevent them to rise again

economy will stabilize easily after that is done since mabi have tons of gold sinks (repair, auction, etc etc)

But then, nexon is lazy to go through item logs. They might even take years to just punish the 1st ppl that started duping gold

frozenwilderness

07-31-2011, 10:54 PM

Who said it was fixed? Supposedly some hackers in Ruairi can even dupe urn gachas.....just that its not being released to the public anymore

Point out to me where I wrote that duping's been fixed. Pretty sure I said that the economy doesn't really need a gold sink IF the duping has stopped. Isn't this thread made with the assumption to drain gold after duping has been fixed? Otherwise, what is the point of draining gold out of the economy if dupers can just infinitely dupe it?

But then again, even if the dupings have stopped, what is the point of draining gold out of the economy?

Justified

07-31-2011, 11:36 PM

Not if they want to keep their players.

Small rollbacks from things like sever crashes is horrible and everyone gets upset about it, a handful quit from loosing something and being fed up with the constant issues.

A planned gold wipe, or wipe of any kind, in any MMO, would be the death of that game. There's very few people who actually accept losing their hard work in an MMO. Some people like starting over once in a while, and others might accept it as a solution to the problem, but from the perspective of running a business and wanting people to give you their money, it's suicide to do this.

The only viable solution is gold sinks, the kind people actually want to throw their gold at to get something in return. That, combined with actually investigating those who obtained ridiculous amounts of gold (guild who bid 900m on housing would be a damn good start).

The difference is this isn't a rollback. Only gold is lost, the experience and item gains are still maintained.

The real suicide was allowing this to happen in the first place. Look at how many people quit, look at how many people are on breaks. Those who continue to play have lost motivation and refrain from weekly rebirth (or anything NX related at all). People who used NX as their main source of income no longer need to sell it since gold floats around by millions. The ones who do don't need to sell $50 worth for a sizable paycheck, now $10 works fine.

Personally, if this gold dupe never happened I'd have used around 150k more NX than I did in the past 1-2 months, maybe more if I decided to Gacha. That's from one person who still plays, now count all the other people and toss in the large amount that quit and you're sitting on a small fortune.

Claudia

07-31-2011, 11:40 PM

Claudia

07-31-2011, 11:40 PM

EndlessDreams

08-01-2011, 12:24 AM

Yeah, it's just a shame that it's gotten out of control.
Granted, the fact that it even happened shows that it was out of control in the first place.

But, Nexon just doesn't care. And since they don't care and the problem is persisting, soon we're going to be SOL.

Just because they don't show that they are doing something doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Nexon never had tell people when they solve hacking problems. The duping gold problem isn't easy to fix at all. Certain parts of it did get fixed, but fixing everything is not possible. It isn't possible to patch every single present and future hacks/mods.

Many people's "solutions" doesn't take to the account that the people duping is a very small minority compared to the massive non-dupers out there. Deleting all gold? Deleting all items? How about if they just delete the characters of whoever suggests such things.

Justified

08-01-2011, 02:46 AM

Many people's "solutions" doesn't take to the account that the people duping is a very small minority compared to the massive non-dupers out there. Deleting all gold? Deleting all items? How about if they just delete the characters of whoever suggests such things.

If you wanted a "solution" that only penalized the people duping, that's what bans are for. The problem is that the gold has been created and distributed throughout the server, not just that somebody did it.

Going back to the counterfeiting example, if some people printed $10,000,000,000,000,000,000 and spread it all throughout the country, then law enforcement would want to do more than just arrest the criminals. They'd need to destroy that money as well.

Erasing all the gold and then following up with some sort of event (5x drop rate for gold/items, ego food event for npcables, etc) would be a good solution, as much as people may protest. It's horrible for the short-term, but it's effective in the long-term.

Auctions and Upgrade Stones are good solutions as well, except for two things.
1. It provides a very large benefit for the dupers/dupe-rich.
2. It's optional, and people can just hold out until everybody else is poor and then run the server with the retained riches.

The second part is only solved by a mandatory server-wide erasure/reduction of all wealth. Otherwise any other measure could be circumvented.

frozenwilderness

08-01-2011, 04:49 AM

If you wanted a "solution" that only penalized the people duping, that's what bans are for. The problem is that the gold has been created and distributed throughout the server, not just that somebody did it.

Going back to the counterfeiting example, if some people printed $10,000,000,000,000,000,000 and spread it all throughout the country, then law enforcement would want to do more than just arrest the criminals. They'd need to destroy that money as well.

Erasing all the gold and then following up with some sort of event (5x drop rate for gold/items, ego food event for npcables, etc) would be a good solution, as much as people may protest. It's horrible for the short-term, but it's effective in the long-term.

Auctions and Upgrade Stones are good solutions as well, except for two things.
1. It provides a very large benefit for the dupers/dupe-rich.
2. It's optional, and people can just hold out until everybody else is poor and then run the server with the retained riches.

The second part is only solved by a mandatory server-wide erasure/reduction of all wealth. Otherwise any other measure could be circumvented.

Wiping all gold is a short term solution, not a long term one. The issue is that dupers have not only duped gold, but they have duped items as well. If they wanted to, they could sell their items for easy money after all gold has been wiped from the server and still be easily better off than everyone else. All they would have to do is wait for players to farm gold from monsters after the event. The only solution to "fix" the economy is to prevent duping, and ban the dupers. Anything else.. well, you can't really fix the economy per se, and there should be no reason to drain the gold out of it anyway because that doesn't really fix anything.

If anything, some inflation is always good for the economy -- just not rapid inflation. Inflation has been beneficial in the real world since most of the time it indicates economic growth, but rapid inflation is bad is because it prevents long term contracts between parties. In a game, rapid inflation caused by duping just means that less people want to sell their items for gold because 10mil gold today may be worth 5mil gold tomorrow; you never know how much less your gold will be worth the next day, so what's the point of selling your items and holding gold? However, if nx could stop the duping, then things would pretty much all resolve themselves on their own.

Yes, it sucks that you can't buy NX at lower rates but if there's more gold in circulation, then it should also be easy to make more gold through page-farming, item-hunting, etc. The only thing that's bad is that fixed rates of gold coming from the game from things such as farming and monster gold drops are now much lower in value relative to the economy.

TheKartheus

08-01-2011, 05:01 AM

What about people who have horribly expensive weapons to repair, and won't be able to run missions without their previously stockpiled gold? Mabi is now over for them unless they go and sell things that they worked hard to get.

Justified

08-01-2011, 07:13 AM

That'd be assuming the duping problem is fixed/diminished in some way.

What about people who have horribly expensive weapons to repair, and won't be able to run missions without their previously stockpiled gold? Mabi is now over for them unless they go and sell things that they worked hard to get.

That's why there would be some event to boost the vanished economy. Just like new players and new games that start with 0 gold, there are ways to make money when you have none.

Okitaru

08-01-2011, 07:20 AM

Okay, I really actually like the idea of a gold gachapon. It's a pretty good idea. People WILL buy gachapon. You just have to hope the economical meta-gamers don't catch on before they use it some.

Nakishu

08-01-2011, 10:36 AM

Ban the hackers/dupers.

Seriously, if Nexon interviewed a few long-term players, they could just ask them who those people are.

I know the names of most of the dupers, it's not that hard to tell.

Omegatronic

08-01-2011, 02:07 PM

Hold a failing economy event.

Start by having NPCs increase the cost of goods and services and decrease their buying power. Have this lead to hyperinflation, and the eventual close of businesses.
Being concerned by the failing economy and people lack of faith in the banking system, the gov't of Erinn form a FDIC insurance that guarantees deposits up to 200k.
The insurance cap and hyperinflation leads to runs on the bank, and leads to an eventual bank failure.
The gold in the bank is gone. The promissory notes printed by the bank are valueless.
The Gov't bank insurance steps in and issues up to 200k in "nu-gold" (per character) making it the new world currency.

All duped gold is now valueless. The poor folks lose very little of their wealth. People who spent NX on more characters are rewarded.

Hazeri

08-01-2011, 11:33 PM

Just holding a candle here hoping for the ducats to become a successful experiment.

Phanterz

08-02-2011, 12:17 AM

Under the extremely hypothetical situation that Nexon has prevented all forms of duping:

Theoretically, you could just sit and wait for the economy to recover. If there is no easy way to obtain additional gold like duping the economy SHOULD eventually recover. But that wouldn't be practical.

Basically, what OP is asking for is a way to lure people with 692394872 gold to spend it on something that won't give them too much of an advantage. People with duped gold aren't stupid. They would easily be able to identify an attempt like this. As its obvious that you can't solve this problem without seriously harming innocent players, you might as well stop trying and just try to minimize the damage.

Thus, I would be in favor of a gold wipe. Rich players will still be able obtain more money. It's basically like a reset, which is better than having 999,999,999,999,999,999,999g hanging around. People will get over it, eventually. (Well, the half of them that are left.)

Giving a warning would not be helpful, obviously.

frozenwilderness

08-02-2011, 05:12 AM

Justified

08-02-2011, 06:00 AM

how is wiping all gold practical? why not just ban the dupers instead? by the time the gold dupe's fixed, the dupers would most likely have been identified and banned, seeing as NX has started on banning already. it's going to take NX much longer to fix and prevent future gold duping than it is to ban dupers. what's the point of wiping all gold then? because someone's richer than you?

Game balance.

New players (if there are any) will have trouble dealing with massively inflated prices until they can squeeze their way into the market somehow.
Meanwhile, current players have almost no worries with maintenance cost (repairs/potions/etc). These things were not intended to be free, but with gold trading hands at 10-20x as much as it should be, these things are trivialized.
Because inflation is just annoying. It's much easier to trade in hundreds of thousands than it is in tens of millions. The former actually fitting in the average person's bank for example. This also means that the wealth generated normally though the game (drops, mission clears, etc) are greatly devalued, stagnating the economy a bit. Although transaction fees should reduce this, it's done much too slowly compared to a forced wipe.

NomadTrooper

08-02-2011, 06:48 AM

I'm for a complete gold wipe...
http://www.discount-quality-ties.co.uk/images/gold_hanky.jpg

It'll hurt the dupers far more then the legit players. Strong player can get their money back with their high ranks. So they'll keep their monetary advantage, wile leaving dupers in the gutter. Merchants? They still have their merchanting skills after the wipe.

Royale

08-02-2011, 07:05 AM

Niuu

08-02-2011, 03:40 PM

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Nexon in some miraculous feat of competence solved gold duping. All that money is still in the game economy and it doesn't really go anywhere when it's traded from player to player other than from transaction charges. If you were nexon, how would you remove this money in a way that doesn't "hurt" honest players, since that seems to be their main reason against just taking the money out manually.

My idea: temporary event where upgrade stones can be purchase for like 50k...and then secretly lower the success rates. They still say 50%, but they're really 10%

What ways can you think of to drain the economy of all this extra gold?

Stop giving rare items in gacha and put realllly good stuff in auction starting at like 20M+

Phanterz

08-02-2011, 03:40 PM

Well it depends on how many people have duped money. If it's like 10%+ I don't see what else you can do. Contrarily, if it's about 0.1% then wiping wouldn't be practical.

Justified

08-02-2011, 05:23 PM

a gold wipe would be the equivalent of a government confiscating all your property because someone in your city is making counterfeit money.... it wouldn't help the economy at all, it would reset it, and make 80% of the population ragequit.

I don't get why everybody is stretching it to loss of "property" or "items." You are losing your money, and only your money.
This has happened in the real world, in Zimbabwe. The government basically said "our economy is ****ed, so your $10,000,000,000 is now $1. You can keep spending it, but yea... its only $1 now."

And while yes, only a few people are duping gold, it's proliferated well into the community. No, you aren't getting lucky with trades, and no you're not a great entrepreneur. These people are just throwing out solid gold bricks at whatever interests them. In the case of real world counterfeiting, the government would not accept any of the counterfeited bills, and markets are considered to confiscated them when detected. Now imagine that the majority of societies money is counterfeited. It's easier to torch the entire currency and start anew, rather than try to remedy it. Especially since in this case the illegal gold can't be detected.

Other angles would be to chop all gold/checks by like 90%, or increase the cost and capacity of everything by 1000% (effectively devaluing the gold), but then the people with over 1 billion (900mil castle bid says hi) would still rule the game.

frozenwilderness

08-02-2011, 10:27 PM

Game balance.

New players (if there are any) will have trouble dealing with massively inflated prices until they can squeeze their way into the market somehow.
Meanwhile, current players have almost no worries with maintenance cost (repairs/potions/etc). These things were not intended to be free, but with gold trading hands at 10-20x as much as it should be, these things are trivialized.
Because inflation is just annoying. It's much easier to trade in hundreds of thousands than it is in tens of millions. The former actually fitting in the average person's bank for example. This also means that the wealth generated normally though the game (drops, mission clears, etc) are greatly devalued, stagnating the economy a bit. Although transaction fees should reduce this, it's done much too slowly compared to a forced wipe.

You will kill the game much faster with a gold wipe than banning dupers, fixing the duping issue, and not doing anything to the gold.

Repair costs/npc items are always a fixed gold amount, so if inflation occurs, those costs always become relatively cheaper for the general population. At the current rate, it's still much easier for new players to make money with MORE gold in the economy than less gold, so it would be easier for them to maintain repairs. Most newbies who don't spend much NX will be mostly dealing with npc items and their costs will be mostly consumed by npcs anyway, so the inflation would not affect them that much anyhow unless they wanted to buy expensive gach or player items. By wiping all the gold, you're basically saying that so-and-so is has more gold than so-and-so because some other people broke the rules of the game, therefore we should punish everyone by wiping the gold.

Also, your example of Zimbabwe is a redenomination of their currency, which is a reduction based on the amount of money, not a complete reduction to 0, which ignores whatever amount you own. Those are 2 completely different things.

And consider, what if some players sold most of their items to hang on to gold? You're basically screwing over those people.

Not to mention, you pretty much invalidate your own point when you say "New players (if there are any)" because by that logic you're taking, and with statistics shown from market research -- it is MUCH easier for a company to retain its existing customers than to attract new ones. So why are you focusing on the newbies in the game if by proportion, they account for much less of the population?

You'll hurt the game population far more by reducing all gold to 0 than just about any other solution. On a personal level, I would support wiping all gold from the economy because it benefits me far more than it hurts me since I keep most of my value in items. On the general level of keeping players in the game however, that solution is much much less attractive, and I almost can't think of a faster way to kill the game population.

Plus.. the rate of inflation in the mabi economy is nowhere near the rate of inflation Zimbabwe reached. That's like comparing multiples of billions and trillions to like.. 10s.

Syrion

08-02-2011, 10:44 PM

I don't get why everybody is stretching it to loss of "property" or "items." You are losing your money, and only your money.
This has happened in the real world, in Zimbabwe. The government basically said "our economy is ****ed, so your $10,000,000,000 is now $1. You can keep spending it, but yea... its only $1 now."

And while yes, only a few people are duping gold, it's proliferated well into the community. No, you aren't getting lucky with trades, and no you're not a great entrepreneur. These people are just throwing out solid gold bricks at whatever interests them. In the case of real world counterfeiting, the government would not accept any of the counterfeited bills, and markets are considered to confiscated them when detected. Now imagine that the majority of societies money is counterfeited. It's easier to torch the entire currency and start anew, rather than try to remedy it. Especially since in this case the illegal gold can't be detected.

Other angles would be to chop all gold/checks by like 90%, or increase the cost and capacity of everything by 1000% (effectively devaluing the gold), but then the people with over 1 billion (900mil castle bid says hi) would still rule the game.

you can't really compare a real life economy to the mabi one in that sense because people are much more willing to quit mabi than they are to quit life (suicide)

frozenwilderness

08-03-2011, 12:45 AM

Other angles would be to chop all gold/checks by like 90%, or increase the cost and capacity of everything by 1000% (effectively devaluing the gold), but then the people with over 1 billion (900mil castle bid says hi) would still rule the game.Forgot to add, you're working under the assumption that there are still dupers/duping in the game by this argument. If this were to hold true, then there would be 0 point in wiping gold because the guild stone based dupes can generate infinite amounts of gold in an instant, and isn't based on the amount of actual/"real" gold there is in the stone. 900 mil castle bid says hi in your 0 gold economy.

GALO SENGEN

08-03-2011, 01:00 AM

Sell branches for 1 million gold each
Or modify life drain to "economy drain"
It's simple

Justified

08-03-2011, 02:10 AM

Forgot to add, you're working under the assumption that there are still dupers/duping in the game by this argument. If this were to hold true, then there would be 0 point in wiping gold because the guild stone based dupes can generate infinite amounts of gold in an instant, and isn't based on the amount of actual/"real" gold there is in the stone. 900 mil castle bid says hi in your 0 gold economy.

I'm not assuming that dupers still exist, you're assuming that I'm assuming that they do.
I already said in an earlier post that obviously the root of the problem has to be solved first before you apply recovery plans.
And who said Guild Stones are exempt from the wipe. That's still gold. I said all gold.

@ Fixed repair costs.
Inflation on Fashionogi has no influence on necessities. Until this widespread dupe happened, items that were actually useful maintained their prices for the most part. They may have fluctuated +/- 50% of their common value from month to month, but now some things are jumping up to 300% or more.

@ Zimbabwe
The difference is that people in Mabi may have infinite amounts of money. On the other hand, Zimbabwe controls how much money they print. Reducing Zimbabwe money devalued it, while reducing an infinite amount of money will hurt everybody except the dupers.

@ New players
Because I believe games should be balanced whether or not it benefits the majority. Nothing makes a game crappier than imbalance. The fact that you don't care about new players only further screws over Mabi, because people will quit faster than new people join, and the level gap will be tremendous. Not only will this foster a bad community, but a bad economy as well (less new players to farm materials for veterans, less mid-levels to help the low-levels learn, etcetc.)This is already happening to an extent.

frozenwilderness

08-03-2011, 04:44 AM

I'm not assuming that dupers still exist, you're assuming that I'm assuming that they do.No, my assumption is valid because if dupers did not exist, there would be no reason for you to mention anything about people with over 1 billion and 900 mil castle bids still ruling the game.

I already said in an earlier post that obviously the root of the problem has to be solved first before you apply recovery plans.
And who said Guild Stones are exempt from the wipe. That's still gold. I said all gold.
I never said guild stones are exempt from the wipe. I said that if you work under the assumption that duping still exists in the game, that there does not have to be gold in the stone to create 900 mil out of nowhere. And clearly, if duping no longer existed and dupers were banned, then there would be no comment such as 1 bil gold users still ruling the game. Plz read what I quoted from ur post in my previous post. That would not be a concern if 1. the dupers were banned, and 2. duping does not exist anymore, so why would you bring that up unless you were assuming that dupers were still around? If they aren't around and someone had 1bil gold legitimately, then aren't you just basically saying that the game is imba because they have more than everyone else therefore all gold should be wiped so that they don't get to have more gold than everyone else?

@ Fixed repair costs.
Inflation on Fashionogi has no influence on necessities. Until this widespread dupe happened, items that were actually useful maintained their prices for the most part. They may have fluctuated +/- 50% of their common value from month to month, but now some things are jumping up to 300% or more.
I don't see how this fluctuation has anything to do with fixed repair costs, since you know, they are fixed and always cost the same at npc. And if you mean necessities such as holy water & lifeskill mats, I would argue that they are still about the same prices as they were before. I can still buy holy water for 20k/stack easily. Leather prices are still about the same, same goes for fabrics + silks. They may be a bit higher than before, but certainly not half as much as by the proportion that gold has increased in the economy.

@ Zimbabwe
The difference is that people in Mabi may have infinite amounts of money. On the other hand, Zimbabwe controls how much money they print. Reducing Zimbabwe money devalued it, while reducing an infinite amount of money will hurt everybody except the dupers.No, it will hurt everyone who holds on to more money than items, and I'm not really seeing how this is relevant, considering the fact that Zimbabwe inflation is far worse than mabi inflation. In addition, you just said that you're "not assuming that dupers still exist", so how can there be people with infinite amounts of money if the dupers have been banned? And if they still have infinite amounts of money, and as such, still exist in the game economy, then why are you zeroing out all the gold if the supposed dupers can create money out of thin air? In that case, the ONLY players you would be hurting are the legitimate ones, since you know, dupers can create gold with basically no gold in the bank/guild stone. They would pretty much be the ONLY people with gold in that case, and all the legitimate players would have no gold.

Maybe you are working under the assumption that dupers are still running around on mabi but duping itself has been fixed? If this is the case, dupers still have the advantage because they have massive amounts of duped items, as well as gold. So at the end of the day, the dupers are still richer than everyone else. However, I am fairly certain that it's much easier for NX to identify and ban an obvious duper than it is to fix the duping issue, seeing as they have already started banning the most prominent dupers. But if both dupers and duping are non-concerns under your scenario, then "infinite gold" should also be a non-concern and should not be brought up as an argument in favor wiping all gold.

@ New players
Because I believe games should be balanced whether or not it benefits the majority. Nothing makes a game crappier than imbalance. The fact that you don't care about new players only further screws over Mabi, because people will quit faster than new people join, and the level gap will be tremendous. Not only will this foster a bad community, but a bad economy as well (less new players to farm materials for veterans, less mid-levels to help the low-levels learn, etcetc.)This is already happening to an extent.
New players, unless they want to fashionogi or buy higher-end items, are mostly unaffected. Granted that items such as AR pages have gone up in price about 4-5 fold, many of those types of items can still be hunted and they are often 1-time items, and not like lifeskill mats.

@level gap - all games that have been around for a while have tremendous level gaps, not seeing your point.

Please quote me where I said that I don't care for newbie players. Veteran/older players make up a much larger percentage of the game population, and it is much easier and more advantageous for Nexon to keep those players playing and paying than to attract new players to the game. Since most businesses operate by the pareto principle, most of Nexon's revenue from mabi comes from a small percentage of the population, and I guarantee you that it will NOT be the newbies who are just starting the game. Thus, it's more important to focus on the existing players of mabi. The problem will eventually resolve itself after duping has stopped and the gold slowly sinks out of the game on its own, and things will become easier for newbies again. If you're hoping to gain a new player population surge from the gold wipe, I'm 100% sure that it's going to be insignificant compared to the players you'll lose from zeroing out all gold. I'm also certain that by zeroing out all gold, a case where a game loses players faster than it gains is much more applicable.

Imagine if you zeroed out all gold in the economy, held a gold drop event afterwards, and ended the event maybe 2-3 weeks later. I know plenty of people who take breaks from mabi; they'll be pretty pissed to find that all their gold is gone and that they've missed the gold drop event, and many of those players may decide to not even bother with the game anymore.

Additionally, you are underestimating the number of players who buy gold. 50mil or 100mil is still $50 or $100; these people will also be pretty angry to see $100 of their money disappear that they've spent on buying gold and will probably ragequit after that happens. Yes, it's against ToS, but they still account for a good percentage of players in the game. Plus, holding a gold drop event after a wipe will pretty much make the game a gold botting heaven.

Again, I honestly can't think of a faster way to kill the game than to zero out all player gold, except maybe by killing everyone's items too.

Who are you to say what's imbalanced and what's not?

I'd be rich as hell if Nexon would wipe all the gold in the game, and I'd love it if they did that, but I'm pretty sure most other players won't be so happy.

NomadTrooper

08-03-2011, 07:07 AM

Additionally, you are underestimating the number of players who buy gold. 50mil or 100mil is still $50 or $100; these people will also be pretty angry to see $100 of their money disappear that they've spent on buying gold and will probably ragequit after that happens. Yes, it's against ToS, but they still account for a good percentage of players in the game.

Oh, God YES! Do it, do it, do it, do it NOW! Nexon! Gold wipe!

Also, it says in the OP assuming that duping is fixed. So most of your counter argument is invalid to this thread.

frozenwilderness

08-03-2011, 07:09 AM

Oh, God YES! Do it, do it, do it, do it NOW! Nexon! Gold wipe!

Also, it says in the OP assuming that duping is fixed. So most of your counter argument is invalid to this thread.

It's irrelevant to the thread, not invalid ;)

But Justified isn't assuming that the dupe's fixed, so I can say the same for that, no?

and yes, wiping the gold would kill not only the gold buyers but also the game. see how much you'll like it when nexon is forced to shut down the game due to mabi no longer being profitable to maintain =)

Tropa

08-03-2011, 08:43 PM

In the KR test server, the Quest scroll rewards are 3x.
Aka in NA: metal skele scroll quest are 15.900gold
In KR test server the reward is 47.700gold

Aliyah

08-03-2011, 08:47 PM

Oh, God YES! Do it, do it, do it, do it NOW! Nexon! Gold wipe!

Also, it says in the OP assuming that duping is fixed. So most of your counter argument is invalid to this thread.

If they wiped gold, then the dupers who spent all their gold on pretty gear will just sell some of it and be rich again. :gloom3:

Justified

08-04-2011, 12:45 AM

But Justified isn't assuming that the dupe's fixed, so I can say the same for that, no?

and yes, wiping the gold would kill not only the gold buyers but also the game. see how much you'll like it when nexon is forced to shut down the game due to mabi no longer being profitable to maintain =)

You like to ignore things.

Not everybody dupes, but people get rich off that gold created.
Dupers have alts they can dump their gold onto.
Etc.etc.

No point in reading or answering anything else in your wall of text if you're just gonna shove things I never said into my mouth, and ignore other things.

And this game is already screwed over, yet people will still shell out $9 per gacha and $15 for limited pets. Some of these people play maybe 1 hour a week, or 1 hour a month. It doesn't matter how diseased the game gets, until it officially gets shut down they'll still make a buck off it.

frozenwilderness

08-04-2011, 02:06 AM

You like to ignore things.

Not everybody dupes, but people get rich off that gold created.
Dupers have alts they can dump their gold onto.
Etc.etc.

No point in reading or answering anything else in your wall of text if you're just gonna shove things I never said into my mouth, and ignore other things.

And this game is already screwed over, yet people will still shell out $9 per gacha and $15 for limited pets. Some of these people play maybe 1 hour a week, or 1 hour a month. It doesn't matter how diseased the game gets, until it officially gets shut down they'll still make a buck off it.

Pretty sure I didn't ignore anything, and I'm fairly certain that I've covered all the points that you did under valid assumptions. If you can't point out the flaws in my logic, then of course there's no point for you to argue. If you're not reading it simply because it's a "wall of text", then that's your problem, not mine. If I could, I'd bet you the cash value of my mabi account that you'll kill the game faster by wiping the gold vs. resolving the dupe + banning the most of the prominent dupers and letting it sit, but hey, there's no way to actually prove that because Nexon will do what's profitable for itself, which is NOT that.. but maybe we should start a poll and see how many users actually agree that a gold wipe is a practical solution?

Also, please explain to me why 900 mil bids and users walking around with 1 bil in gold will still be a concern after the duping is resolved and dupers have been banned, since you say, I should quote, "I'm not assuming that dupers still exist, you're assuming that I'm assuming that they do".

Again.. easier to make money in an economy with more gold than an economy with less; this applies for everyone, unless you're stupid or a total beginner. I don't see a problem with people getting rich off of others who duped since more gold in economy = more gold for everyone. The only issue where this excess gold becomes a problem is when there is rapid inflation -- in which duping still exists and unmanageable inflation continues without curb.

Justified

08-04-2011, 05:18 AM

Pretty sure I didn't ignore anything, and I'm fairly certain that I've covered all the points that you did under valid assumptions. If you can't point out the flaws in my logic, then of course there's no point for you to argue. If you're not reading it simply because it's a "wall of text", then that's your problem, not mine. If I could, I'd bet you the cash value of my mabi account that you'll kill the game faster by wiping the gold vs. resolving the dupe + banning the most of the prominent dupers and letting it sit, but hey, there's no way to actually prove that because Nexon will do what's profitable for itself, which is NOT that.. but maybe we should start a poll and see how many users actually agree that a gold wipe is a practical solution?
No such thing as a "valid assumption."
The flaws in your logic are mostly that you're arguing things I didn't say, and I don't care enough to go into them.
For example, where did I say anything about caring if I kill the game? I don't care at all if my idea kills the game, I only care about if the game is balanced. As some people have posted, despite how much money they have, they can see how a gold-wipe would be helpful.

I almost never read walls of text, and I try not to write them. While I believe that people should always explain themselves properly, if they need paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation to get their point across (aside from restarting things over and over for the ignorant) then chances are they're not saying anything smart.
Short and sweet.

Also, please explain to me why 900 mil bids and users walking around with 1 bil in gold will still be a concern after the duping is resolved and dupers have been banned, since you say, I should quote, "I'm not assuming that dupers still exist, you're assuming that I'm assuming that they do".

As I said. Some people duped, but all people have that duped money now. People who call themselves "merchants" can easily make upwards of 20mil per day.

Again.. easier to make money in an economy with more gold than an economy with less; this applies for everyone, unless you're stupid or a total beginner. I don't see a problem with people getting rich off of others who duped since more gold in economy = more gold for everyone. The only issue where this excess gold becomes a problem is when there is rapid inflation -- in which duping still exists and unmanageable inflation continues without curb.

I already said who cares about easy. I care about balance.
You say there's no problem, yet there already is.
Bank Limit - Players cannot carry gold and will be forced to carry checks, which makes pets/multiple chars (NX bonuses) necessary.
Store Limit - Houses can only hold 5m. Dunbarton stores 2m. Forced to go to Cobh for non-in person trades.
Trade Limit - Trade windows can only hold 50m. Assuming duping continues, it's possible we'll exceed this, then we get screwed.

frozenwilderness

08-04-2011, 05:47 AM

No such thing as a "valid assumption."Maybe I should change it to "logical" assumption.

The flaws in your logic are mostly that you're arguing things I didn't say, and I don't care enough to go into them.
For example, where did I say anything about caring if I kill the game? I don't care at all if my idea kills the game, I only care about if the game is balanced. As some people have posted, despite how much money they have, they can see how a gold-wipe would be helpful.What's balanced? That's highly subjective. I'm not saying that a gold wipe has no benefits, but I am saying that the disadvantages far outweigh the benefits. If you don't care that the game gets killed, why do you care about your so-called "balance" for a game if it soon becomes unplayable? And who are you to say what's balanced and what's not? I could say the same and tell you that a gold wipe makes the game imba, and that I only care to balance the game. That can neither be proven nor disproven.

I almost never read walls of text, and I try not to write them. While I believe that people should always explain themselves properly, if they need paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation to get their point across (aside from restarting things over and over for the ignorant) then chances are they're not saying anything smart.
Short and sweet.That's an opinion, and respectively to me, a wrong one. I could say the same for you - if you refuse to read someone's counterpoint, then you're just purely lazy, and shouldn't even be responding.

As I said. Some people duped, but all people have that duped money now. People who call themselves "merchants" can easily make upwards of 20mil per day.Which is the equivalent of 5m back then, and can only buy the equivalent of what 5m would buy back then. Not seeing the issue.

I already said who cares about easy. I care about balance.Again, balance is extremely subjective, and again, I could say that I care about balance too. You're only complaining that the game is imba because it's easier for some people to make money than others, but that's always been the case though.

You say there's no problem, yet there already is.
Bank Limit - Players cannot carry gold and will be forced to carry checks, which makes pets/multiple chars (NX bonuses) necessary.
Store Limit - Houses can only hold 5m. Dunbarton stores 2m. Forced to go to Cobh for non-in person trades.
Trade Limit - Trade windows can only hold 50m. Assuming duping continues, it's possible we'll exceed this, then we get screwed.Hasn't really been an issue so far, and I don't foresee those to be upcoming issues. If the inflation ends up stagnating at too high a point, just lift the check/house cap amount like before, or reduce everyone's gold by a multiple of 10, so that they can fit into reasonable trade window amounts again.

Justified

08-04-2011, 06:16 AM

1. I don't care if the game gets killed (as in many/majority of players quit) because a balanced game will still have some players. Those people can enjoy the balance. Killed games are not unplayable.

2. Explain how a gold wipe would be imbalanced. Yes it'll be rough from the start, just like a fresh game in which no player has any gold at all, but that fixes itself in time. Massive inflation doesn't unless Nexon implements a fix.

3. I refuse to read your counterpoint, I'm not saying you're wrong (for what I ignored). You're making assumptions again.
A wall of text implies you need to explain more, which often means you're trying to justify more. In other words, you make more and more excuses as you go, thus making an invalid argument. If something is right, then it doesn't need explanation because by nature people should see why it's right with their own logic.

4. Inflation means less gold comes into the system. It devalues work (gold drops, mission rewards, etc) and devalues maintenance (repair fees, potions, etc) as I already said before. This shifts the game to a market focus, and trading is not the intended point of the game. In other words the market is imbalanced, and was already imbalanced by gachapon before inflation.

5. I never said "easier for some to make money" was imbalance. Nor did I say that was what I had a problem with. More assumptions.

6. Items have been traded for over 50m. So it has already come up.
The majority of players have 3 characters. The majority of people I speak to have over 15m. Thus, this has come up too.
Likewise for stores, the majority of items have been valued over 2m/5m, meaning only Cobh is a viable market spot. So this has come up.

How has this not been an issue? All three cases have occured. Of course there are measures to go around it, but all of them are a hassle for players who don't play 10 hours a day or buy 30 pets.

7. Reducing people's gold by 90% is similar to what I said earlier.

frozenwilderness

08-04-2011, 06:37 AM

1. I don't care if the game gets killed (as in many/majority of players quit) because a balanced game will still have some players. Those people can enjoy the balance. Killed games are not unplayable.

It will be unplayable if the game is no longer profitable for Nexon to run it, which is what is likely to happen if you wipe all gold from the game.

2. Explain how a gold wipe would be imbalanced. Yes it'll be rough from the start, just like a fresh game in which no player has any gold at all, but that fixes itself in time. Massive inflation doesn't unless Nexon implements a fix.

Explain how a gold wipe would be balanced. I can tell you how it's not balanced. Mass gold drop event afterwards = mass botting event. On and off mabi players (of which there are a lot), would miss it, and have no gold to come back to on their accounts.

3. I refuse to read your counterpoint, I'm not saying you're wrong (for what I ignored). You're making assumptions again.
A wall of text implies you need to explain more, which often means you're trying to justify more. In other words, you make more and more excuses as you go, thus making an invalid argument. If something is right, then it doesn't need explanation because by nature people should see why it's right with their own logic.

I didn't say you said I was wrong, you're the one making assumptions. Personally I write paragraphs to cover points in detail or sometimes bring up a point more than once; it's not my problem if you don't read it, but then you can't really be justified in responding.

4. Inflation means less gold comes into the system. It devalues work (gold drops, mission rewards, etc) and devalues maintenance (repair fees, potions, etc) as I already said before. This shifts the game to a market focus, and trading is not the intended point of the game. In other words the market is imbalanced, and was already imbalanced by gachapon before inflation.

Who are you to say what the "intended" point of the game is? The only intention of the game is for Nexon to profit when you get down to it, and if the game starts costing more to maintain than the revenue NX derives from it, then they shut it down.

5. I never said "easier for some to make money" was imbalance. Nor did I say that was what I had a problem with. More assumptions.

Nop, you said that some players can easily make 20mil a day, and by bringing that up, you're directly implying the game is imba. Therefore, easy for some to make money = game is imba. Otherwise why would you even bring up that as a point if all you cared about was game balance and it has nothing to do with game balance?

6. Items have been traded for over 50m. So it has already come up.
The majority of players have 3 characters. The majority of people I speak to have over 15m. Thus, this has come up too.
Likewise for stores, the majority of items have been valued over 2m/5m, meaning only Cobh is a viable market spot. So this has come up.

How has this not been an issue? All three cases have occured. Of course there are measures to go around it, but all of them are a hassle for players who don't play 10 hours a day or buy 30 pets.

Items were traded for 30m+ back when the check cap was 1m and trade limit was 10m. Character banks were limited to 2m per and plenty of people carried more than 6m back then. A good portion of the population party sells, in which checks are traded anyway. Iich had 500 million gold legitimately long before duping. Still not seeing the issue.

7. Reducing people's gold by 90% is similar to what I said earlier.

Yes, but it's completely different from a gold wipe.

And it's quite funny how most of the people supporting the gold wipe other than you, aren't that rich gold-wise.

Justified

08-04-2011, 07:03 AM

Low population comes with lower maintenance costs. You also assume everybody would quit. There are a lot of addicts and casual people who would not quit, and these are the people who shell out large amounts of money.

I already said how it would be balanced. Botting doesn't matter, since proportionally the same amount of gold goes to the same people. Not to mention that significantly more gold comes from Hardmode missions, which bots cant farm. Likewise bots dont plant Taillteann crops (yet?). The event can run for an extended period of time, and obviously an item can be made that increases your droprate significantly if you miss the event period.

I didn't respond to anything I didn't specifically read. I don't see why you're attacking me for that.

The intention of the game is to be played as designed.
The intention of the company is to make money.
That's two different things.

Bringing up the Merchant thing out of context. I didn't say the game was imbalanced because they make more or less than another player, only that they can make that much. You said "the game is imba because it's easier for some people to make money than others" which is nothing like what I said.

Comparing one person (Iich) to the majority of the server. Nice.
Note that raising bank/check caps were a rebalancing mechanic, a step in the right direction. The difference this time is we're not dealing with new content and high volume of players, but rather spontaneous infinite gold.

frozenwilderness

08-04-2011, 07:37 AM

Low population comes with lower maintenance costs. You also assume everybody would quit. There are a lot of addicts and casual people who would not quit, and these are the people who shell out large amounts of money.

I am not assuming everyone would quit, but a large amount would, putting the game in potential danger, seeing how mabi has one of the lowest player bases compared to other nexon games. It's much safer to just get rid of the duping issues and let the economy slowly sink back to normal.

I already said how it would be balanced. Botting doesn't matter, since proportionally the same amount of gold goes to the same people. Not to mention that significantly more gold comes from Hardmode missions, which bots cant farm. Likewise bots dont plant Taillteann crops (yet?). The event can run for an extended period of time, and obviously an item can be made that increases your droprate significantly if you miss the event period.

They can't farm, but they can farm from missions and more in proportion than they used to pre-dupe, since everyone's gold is wiped. People who haven't bought gold before may be prone to begin buying gold since bots can farm it for cheap, after the regular gold buyers have ragequit. And I have no idea what you mean about the item to increase drop rates.

I didn't respond to anything I didn't specifically read. I don't see why you're attacking me for that.

Which means you just select whichever parts you want to read, and I'm calling you lazy.

The intention of the game is to be played as designed.
who are you to say that merchs and fashionogis/gachers aren't playing the game as designed if the mechanics are within the game itself?
The intention of the company is to make money.
good job
That's two different things.
no, not really.

Bringing up the Merchant thing out of context. I didn't say the game was imbalanced because they make more or less than another player, only that they can make that much. You said "the game is imba because it's easier for some people to make money than others" which is nothing like what I said.

You said that "merchants" can easily make upwards of 20mil per day. I think it's fairly logical to assume that you think it's unfair that some people can't make that much so easily in a day since if that wasn't the case, you would be complaining that everyone is easily making massive amounts of gold, not just the merchants.

Comparing one person (Iich) to the majority of the server. Nice.

Iich was only one example. A good number of people held a significant amount of gold back then as well, and there were plenty of deals that went beyond the trade window limit. He wasn't the only one, so again, not seeing the issue.

Note that raising bank/check caps were a rebalancing mechanic, a step in the right direction. The difference this time is we're not dealing with new content and high volume of players, but rather spontaneous infinite gold.

which is easily resolved if nexon would just fix all the duping related issues. not seeing a difference between more players and more gold and same # of players with more gold if rapid inflation is no longer occurring. the gold will drain out naturally through money sinks as there is less gold created in the game than exiting the game. you could also redenominate the gold to 1/10 of its current numbers and it basically gives the same effect so that you don't have to lift the caps, but that's still massively different from a gold wipe.

maybe you should poll the users of nation and see how many would support a gold wipe vs how many wouldn't

Justified

08-04-2011, 08:57 AM

You're picking select parts of my posts again, so I'm making this my last response unless you have a real argument without assumptions.

I am not assuming everyone would quit, but a large amount would, putting the game in potential danger,
And you're assuming a large amount would. And assuming the remaining players would be too low an amount to keep the game up.
There's no evidence proving a gold wipe would cause, so you can argue it might close the game, but you can't go anywhere with a might when trying to disprove something. There's far worse things players persevere through, and those players who rarely play but still pay.

It's much safer to just get rid of the duping issues and let the economy slowly sink back to normal.
Seeing how much gold was created, it could take years for gold sinks (mainly tax and repair costs) to return it to normal. In the meanwhile everybody still benefits off the riches.

They can't farm, but they can farm from missions and more in proportion than they used to pre-dupe, since everyone's gold is wiped.
Duh? That's the point, making gold more valuable again.

People who haven't bought gold before may be prone to begin buying gold since bots can farm it for cheap
Why? They can make gold just as easily. And you're assuming they'd resort to gold buying.

And I have no idea what you mean about the item to increase drop rates.
How can you not understand that. Special 10x Drop Rate item for "On and off mabi players (of which there are a lot), would miss it, and have no gold to come back to on their accounts." solves that problem easily.

Level 150 prerequisite could also make it bot-proof. Seeing as how with Daily Rebirth, it shouldn't take a new player more than 5-8 days to get to 100, and super new players don't need compensation anyways as they had nothing to begin with.

Which means you just select whichever parts you want to read, and I'm calling you lazy.
Cool. Why does that matter when the parts I responded to are valid?

That's two different things.
no, not really.
"I write paragraphs to cover points in detail"
Nice detail there.

I think it's fairly logical to assume that you think it's unfair that some people can't make that much so easily in a day since if that wasn't the case, you would be complaining that everyone is easily making massive amounts of gold, not just the merchants.
Yes, it's fairly logical to assume what I explicitly said I didn't mean.
"There's no such thing as a valid assumption." <-- Repeating myself again
You're not being logical make an assumption and fail to prove it as true. You're just being an ass.

"I didn't say the game was imbalanced because they make more or less than another player, only that they can make that much." <-- Do you know what an example is? Cause this is an example of an example.

Iich was only one example.
Oh look you do know what examples are! Though you still failed at it.
Various people exceeding the money limits, versus the vast majority of people. That's like saying "We didn't need the army to deal with ten rebels, so we won't need them for 10,000 rebels." Cause 10 is totally as bad as 10,000 right?
Also if there was no issue, then why were Banks increased 2.5x, Checks increased 5x, and Personal Shops increased ~4x with Cobh? Oh, maybe because there was an issue that needed some rebalancing to fix it?

you could also redenominate the gold to 1/10 of its current numbers and it basically gives the same effect so that you don't have to lift the caps, but that's still massively different from a gold wipe.
Repeating myself again...
"Now imagine that the majority of societies money is counterfeited. It's easier to torch the entire currency and start anew, rather than try to remedy it. Especially since in this case the illegal gold can't be detected."
""while reducing an infinite amount of money will hurt everybody except the dupers."
Unless Nexon manages to erase all Dupers, Duper's alts, Duper's benefited friend, etc, this is a horribly ineffective fix. There's a high likelyhood some will go under the radar and retain their monopoly. This can only be effectively resolved by a wipe.

I think that's the most sarcasm I've ever loaded into one post. Your counterpoints got weaker and weaker as you broke up my posts farther and farther, as they got disconnected from the actual point of the arguments, which I guess you weren't taking into consideration, your answers got less and less applicable. Remember to fight the point of the statements, not the isolated paragraphs next time.

Aubog007

08-04-2011, 08:58 AM

I like the idea of taking 90% of the gold out of the economy. Works4me.

frozenwilderness

08-04-2011, 09:27 AM

Remember to fight the point of the statements, not the isolated paragraphs next time.I guess you must be speaking for yourself then.

Merchants can make 20 mil a day easily now. So what? What's your point of saying this? Just because they can make it easily the game is imba? There has to be some form of unfairness within the mechanics of a game if you're going to claim a game is imbalanced. If it's unfair due to your own stupidity, then you can't punish others for it.

Since you're not claiming that the game is imba because some players are making more money more easily than others and that you don't care for the relative "easiness" of obtaining gold, then that must mean that people are making it in the same proportions as they were before the dupe, except in greater amounts. If that's the case, then it's just a matter of multiples. If gold inflated 10x, then reduce it back to 1/10 of the current to get to the original amounts. Much better and more practical solution than a gold wipe, and you'd make a lot more of the legitimate players happy.

Pretty much the ONLY argument you've given so far in favor wiping all gold is because the current trading rates can't fit into trade windows and people can't hold them with the current limits. Again, just reduce the gold to 1/10 of the current amount or, omg, up the bank limits if you don't do that.

The only claims you have made so far in favor of a gold wipe is that players can't hold all that gold and that trades above the trade window limit are occurring, though these have always occurred before the dupe anyway, which is why I don't consider it an issue. On a personal level, I'm not finding it very hard to hold my money in checks and only deposit money when I have to break it up into smaller amounts, as I've always done. I'm pretty sure this aspect of the game mechanics as a result of the duping is a negligible concern to most other players as well, which is why I say do nothing as a better option than a gold wipe because a lot of players would consider a wipe unfair to their legitimately gotten gold.

Also, you are basically arguing that a gold wipe might not close the game. We can't prove this one way or the other, but I can bet you my account that more people will be against a gold wipe than for.

As for the rest, I'm not going to respond to it. I read it, but you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing, so hf with that.

Perfectio

08-04-2011, 10:23 AM

Honestly, I really get the feeling that all the people who ***** about the current economy fall into one of two categories:

1: People who grind easy sub-10 minute missions that give a high rate of gold/exp per hour (and these players are usually already high-leveled)
2: People who buy a lot of NX, or a lot of dyes.

I really think that everyone's forgotten the pre-inflation economy which was definitely worse than now (when you have too many items and not enough gold, do you know what happens? The economy shuts down.). Again, the people who "won" in that economy was the high-level SCC/Their Method grinders who could make 150-250k an hour in gold drops. The people who lost was "everyone else".

Hey, the average player has money now. The average player isn't living SM to SM, struggling to cover his repairs and pots, or having to watch every single gold coin he spends. Sure a few people have obscene amounts of money. Sure prices on a lot of items are over the top. But because more things have value, and it's far easier to sell lower-end goods, the average player actually comes out ahead. Contrast with a few months ago when people had maybe 50k in gold reserves ON AVERAGE (with inventories filled with things like gacha items and beholders).

As for new players, the logical endpoint of the idea that new players won't be motivated to play because of high prices is that the whole game should be wiped, because level 5-10k players exist. I'm sure nobody supports that.

TheKartheus

08-04-2011, 05:21 PM

My friend just came back from a long break from mabi to these prices. As you can imagine he was originally a little upset that the prices were this outrageously high. But then he realized he could sell a couple of random worthless items in his inventory for several mil each, bought 2 urns and got items to sell for 5mil+ each, and in one day now has 15mil+, which is pretty average in this economy.

I think that new players won't have much trouble making money in this economy, they can still run low-level dungeons and get things to sell for several mil. There's absolutely no reason to even drain the economy in the first place.

AsterSelene

08-04-2011, 05:34 PM

I'm a new player, pretty much (see total level below). I get antsy when I lose even three days worth of gold earning (about 20k on a lucky day), so a gold wipe would drive me nuts.
Perhaps it'd be okay if accompanied by an event of massive goldmaking (though I'd hope to god it'd be when I'm on Mabi), but still, I'd be in despair for quite a bit.

Sekwaf

08-04-2011, 05:35 PM

I'd put in a "donation system". Every week a different town would ask for donation for some special project or other and ask adventurers for donation to help. The player that donates the most on each server will get a box that contains some fabulous item, so a lot of people would donate in hopes of getting that item (Heck could even throw in a title with lowish stats for the winner).

Balenciaga

08-04-2011, 05:39 PM

jirachistar

08-05-2011, 12:32 PM

Mabinogi gambling casinos. Let's waste all the gold trying to get rare prizes. :3

Claudia

08-05-2011, 12:36 PM

Mabinogi gambling casinos. Let's waste all the gold trying to get rare prizes. :3

...

That's gachapon. Substitute gold for rl money, or, as some players do, buy NX with gold, then whore up gachapon.

Balenciaga

08-05-2011, 12:54 PM

Mabinogi gambling casinos. Let's waste all the gold trying to get rare prizes. :3
Is that even legal? to put a gambling in a game where underaged kids play?
But then again, gachapon is pretty much a gambling machine.

Perfectio

08-05-2011, 02:18 PM

With everything else, Nexon manipulates the text of legal code to do obviously illegal things without getting busted for them. With gachapon, the idea is that you get *something*, even if the item sucks (as well as the fact that "NX has no real world value in the eyes of the law - we know it's 10 dollars, but legally it's not). With this, there's not even real money involved.

Ekaterin

08-07-2011, 10:15 PM

1. Get rid of the source of the money... gold bots and dupers.
2. Make an event where upgrade stones are so common that you can buy them for 1k ea, the special upgrade system is an excellent money drain as long as there are stones in great quantities.

That just shifts money around players, not out of the system. Here's my ideas:

- FIRST, fix the duping and botting problems to stop more illegitimate gold from getting into the system.
- Up Tara Auction from 2 items per day to maybe 5 or 10. Reduce time to bid form last bid from 180s to 60s.
- sell wool / leather / thread / fabric pouches at an NPC for 200-500k each, or more
- create a 99% repair NPC with 5x Edern's prices

As for the special upgrade system... learn 2 math. All it is is gambling that you can hit a streak of wins. At 50% success/fail rate, the normal progression is that you do not move. It would be better if it were 50-50, then on fail you only drop 50% of the time, otherwise you just stay the same. UNtil they change it, I am not special upgrading anything.

Maalik

08-07-2011, 10:31 PM

Every Sunday night, server time like 8:00 PM or so, open public lottery.
50k each attempt, giving out from basic production materials, pots to something like rare color weapons.
or even rare items like some never released in NA before items. (obivious rates r set giving out mostly cheap consumable item like hp50 or mp50 )

Even rates r set to really low, this will consume significantly amount of golds in economy till it gets balance to a point that spamming this lottery at ground rate will not be able to give out any benefits.

Or, like wat devcat is doing right now, make ducat(new currency) to merge the system.

Teleports service from town to town on additional to moon gates. (starting from 5000g to 20000g depends on distance, fee automaticly deduct from banks not gold pouch :) ). This will slowly consume significant amount of cashes.

Ekaterin

08-07-2011, 10:42 PM

Teleports service from town to town on additional to moon gates. (starting from 5000g to 20000g depends on distance, fee automaticly deduct from banks not gold pouch :) ). This will slowly consume significant amount of cashes.

This. Like wax wings. Or just make wax wings in-game item instead of cash shop. I could dump my return coupons and free up 10-15 inv slots (still need a few for some bosses or TNN/Baol/Ceo).

AsterSelene

08-07-2011, 10:45 PM

This. Like wax wings. Or just make wax wings in-game item instead of cash shop. I could dump my return coupons and free up 10-15 inv slots (still need a few for some bosses or TNN/Baol/Ceo).

We could also have Maple's system, "return scrolls", for Uladh. I'd do what used to do in MS and constantly hoard them.

Zyrus

08-07-2011, 10:51 PM

Mabinogi gambling casinos. Let's waste all the gold trying to get rare prizes. :3

I don't care about gold leaving the game but some sort of gambling content should be added. Any of the old RPG players remember Dragon warrior games where you could bet on monsters in a battle arena. I would love something like that where players could bet on fomors fighting each other and the odds could change like the typical vegas system. It would be a great place to hang out with friends and maybe win some money.

Also a coliseum content where players can solo or groups and fight in rounds that progressively get harder and harder until that level is complete all the way up to elite mission where the final boss is something incredible like a Desert Dragon(kinda a spin-off of final fantasy) and the prizes get progressively better and better (like exp and gold from a shadow mission with a % chance to get a drop from endchest).

You could have 4 coliseums with each having different mobs. The mobs would be semi randomized by str

Dungeon Coliseum - Dungeon mobs and bosses
Shadow Coliseum- Shadow mobs and bosses
Iria coliseum - Field bosses and Iria Mobs
PVP coliseum - Players vs players and actual rewards in exp based on total levels or somethin (this idea needs work)

Perhaps make is so other players (up to a limit, disable demigod in the coliseum and such) can watch.

THAT would be win content

:thumb::whip:

This would totally be win.