Imagine if DevCat took out windmill from the game

[sakraycore]

How would your playstyle change?

For me, I'd probably switch to primarily range with magic assisting. Smash is ok but not practical against multi aggro.

[Cannibal]

Wouldn't change anything for me at all. Never been into melee at all, and even if I were, my windmill would be low-ranked.


Hate windmill. >:|

[Tibarn]

I'd leave.

:3

[Science]

My playstyle on my Elf would be mostly unaffected unless I get bored and go Meleelf. My human on the other hand would probably resort to duel-like gameplay and resort to smash and assault combos, and continuous chains of AR and LB.

[Crazed420]

I would simply stop spamming dungeons with no effort and actually use tactic again? Possibly the return of a few braincells lost from the rank 1 training? Ahh no, i know I'd be laughing at the people who can't function and continue to fight as per usual just sans windmill usage. Hullo r1 lightningbolt oh how you'd be used and abused.

[EndlessDreams]

I will just continue to smash...
Most of the supposedly multi-aggro situation can be avoided through pet control and partying.
Partying is the best way to do Shadow Missions nowadays.

or just continue to spam lifeskills.

[Intex]

Time to play elf.

And watch every giant quit.

;D

[SilentPrayer]

Mmm windmill, Never use it, Pure range...

[Phoenix~Lament]

Go back to pure range I guess.

It would be a shame; windmill and the entire melee-style is quite fun.

[Joker]

I would quit unless they refunded all my ap with another equal skill at rank 1 already cause training suked lol

[MrShandavio]

I'd PVP a lot more.

[Byte]

I'd have one less skill to rank.

[Loret]

Mace/shield + Assault all the way.

I'd probably go melee/range and just replace WM with AR (spammin' ftw).
Though if they did that they'd better compensate for those hours of tedious grinding and all other forms of torture I've endured for my golden R1 >;

[Discord]

As a Giant this is my reaction,

-Point Atlatl at head-

[Hitaki]

Resort to Magnum in a corner and Walls.

[Flonne]

I assume this affects golem wm too.

But in any case, there would probably be a lot more elf players, myself included. Handling multi and getting easy crits would be a pain without adv magic.

Golem would be less useful in general. Still would be good for tanking and can 'bypass' an elf's bad melee too if it is needed. Otherwise, just attempt to range or use adv magic. Golem would still take care of any melee necessities.

[Tree]

Quit for all the grinding lost.

[Shanghai]

Become an Ice Mage again and spam Icebolt to solve my problems. I'll use Ice-Counter with rank 1 Counter and rank 1 Icebolt as well because WM is gone.

[Trigger]

I'd just be spamming advanced magic, like I did before I capped my melee skills. =P

Without Windmill, there'd be a LOT more mages. XD

[Syrphid]

I'd rank ice spear and go mage.

[Hitaki]

Come to think of it...If Windmill never existed, that would make Mabi tons more fun to play considering the greatly raised difficulty and people resorting to new tactics o3o;

Or at least to me...

[Okami]

Demand for my AP back and then pump it into FH and then continue with training my range.

[Trigger]

Come to think of it...If Windmill never existed, that would make Mabi tons more fun to play considering the greatly raised difficulty and people resorting to new tactics o3o;

Or at least to me...

There'd be another "spam" tactic that people would consider catch-all. I can't say what it might be, but trust me, people can get pretty creative when it comes to spamming. =P

On another note, the lack of Windmill would make monster AI harder to deal with, since WM automatically resets the AI of most monsters. It would also make Smash less useful due to no Smashmill combos.

[Phunkie]

I'd leave.

:3

LOL me too!

It would just change gameplay too harshly.

[Air]

I would use range and magic a lot more often.

[BobYoMeowMeow]

melee then would be less preferred and might actually make alchemy more reliable

[bebepanales]

i wouldnt be able to fight. if there were a *faint action i'd do it it's so absurd. o right. *plays dead (in a sad way.)
i don't use wm if i can help it, but still, in sticky situations, that's the only way to go. xd

when i solo commander 2, i use my pets as bait, and even then, if 2 monsters see me, i keep one stunned with an icebolt, and end up JUST GETTING HIT. *dies. lol i dont die though so it's all good. so i guess id just fight the same way i fight in commander 2, just minus the seldom wm's i do there. if there were no wm, i wouldnt try difficult sm's or dungeons because i wouldnt be able to take so much damage, even with all my armor on.

[Kyouria]

If I had been asked this a few months ago: I would be forced to use new techniques because I abused WM in combat. http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/OneSky/Kaoani/kao_mouth_shut.gif I try to avoid using WM unless I'm in a sticky situation or can afford to lose HP without worrying about death. http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/OneSky/Kaoani/kao_regular.gif

[bebepanales]

If I had been asked this a few months ago: I would be forced to use new techniques because I abused WM in combat. http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/OneSky/Kaoani/kao_mouth_shut.gif I try to avoid using WM unless I'm in a sticky situation or can afford to lose HP without worrying about death. http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/OneSky/Kaoani/kao_regular.gif

me 2 lol. the 10% loss per makes my heart drop. xd

[Sleet]

Yup. I'd quit lol. WM is what makes a giant even usable.

[Animefreak97]

Hmm I would probally quit.

[Kyouriharu]

I love how some people use Windmill as a clutch then think that they're "Super Pro." Then again, this goes to any skill that's used in the same spammy fashion like Elf Ranged. Anyways, if they took out Windmill, I'd probably end up using Defense more for my defensive play. Maybe actually rank Wind Cannon because that the only other skill with breakneck loading speed. All in all, it'll be quite a change.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

If this were to be the STEAM Forums, you did see me giving replies like this:

"I will masturbate, FURIOUSLY."


But since this isn't the STEAM Forums, I'll just say that it wouldn't affect me one bit at all since I din't add a single AP into Windmill.




It's like a walking stick, you do not need it, but yet you choose to depend on it.

It's not like you're a handicap or anything, are you?

[sakraycore]

Well it would make mabi as a whole a HELL of a lot harder. However, it would force people to think for once which is always a good thing.

It would also pretty much ruin melee combat which isn't really a good thing...

Anyways, I wouldn't mind if they took out windmill for a couple of days so I could see what people do for shadow missions then...

[EphraDaMan]

One thing's for sure....it'd make dragons and PEACA one-up us a whole lot more. Dragons would laugh at us and just kill us 90% faster....and they'd probably have dragons use Stomp or something instead of WM.

Ghosts would laugh too because we'd be unable to keep hitting them for periods of time/keep them in a corner.

Healing rooms? Learn to either one-hit everything or poison stuff...

Bunch of melee enemies on you? Just die. >_>;

And we'd have to forget about actually defeating Ifrit or that Giant Moth in Peaca Basic....

[Syrphid]

If this were to be the STEAM Forums, you did see me giving replies like this:

"I will masturbate, FURIOUSLY."


But since this isn't the STEAM Forums, I'll just say that it wouldn't affect me one bit at all since I din't add a single AP into Windmill.




It's like a walking stick, you do not need it, but yet you choose to depend on it.

It's not like you're a handicap or anything, are you?

More like your left leg? I don't need a left leg, but it's nice to have, and I would not voluntarily forsake it.

It's not like you can't use a wheelchair or anything, right?

[Trigger]

If this were to be the STEAM Forums, you did see me giving replies like this:

"I will masturbate, FURIOUSLY."


But since this isn't the STEAM Forums, I'll just say that it wouldn't affect me one bit at all since I din't add a single AP into Windmill.




It's like a walking stick, you do not need it, but yet you choose to depend on it.

It's not like you're a handicap or anything, are you?

I used to be against WM myself until I actually capped it; then my view underwent a radical change. It's a powerful ally of melee users and can back up just about any build. Sure it's "overpowered," but then, no game is without its relatively "broken" spam attacks. It's just part of video games -- some attacks are stronger/more versatile than others.

I must agree with Syrphid; I would not voluntarily give up my Windmill any more than I would voluntarily give up my left leg.

[Aubog007]

WM to my build is like MP to a mage build.
My heart.
WMless me = dead.

That or I resort to my healer build.
Oh how I love healers.

[Laconicus]

I'd be quite happy if they took out wm, since I'm in the middle of training it right now. I'm an archer so it's not super important that I have it, but at the same time I need to get it anyways ._.

[Drago]

-switches to magic/alch build- :D

[Kayalomy]

Would use smash more.

[Valencia]

If they took windmill out of the game I wouldn't have a bunch of people overrating the skill breathing down my neck about it. That skill has killed me more than it has saved me. Nothing special about it. I only use it in the middle of combos, but that only works for crappy the AI most of the time.

[Taycat]

I would use counter and defend more.

Also, I would use lightning more.

[Chihaya]

Wouldn't change anything for me at all. Never been into melee at all, and even if I were, my windmill would be low-ranked.


Hate windmill. >:|

Saani, thou FAILS!

As for me, i'd quit Mabi

[Crimmy]

Yup. I'd quit lol. WM is what makes a giant even usable.

Hay. Just because we don't have decent Int or a decent range skill doesn't mean we depend solely on WM. I wasn't even able to use WM decently until R9 because of the glitch in giant's WM range.

If WM were removed, I'd be disappointed, but I'd still play. Smash + charge + smash is good tact more giants should use and I'd rely on it more. Maybe we could figure out something with stomp when it becomes uncapped and y'know, usable.

Then there's Wind Guard. That could sorta be a WM replacement.. sort of.

[Juno]

I rarely use it as is, smash is kind of my answer to everything. I'd stock a few more hp pots since I couldn't worm my way out of multiaggro as smoothly but I wouldn't lose any sleep on it.

[Zid]

I'd actually consider a Mage/Alchemist hybrid build, seriously.

And just spam Spark/Ice Spear/Blaze.

I'd see more Defense/Counterattack use.

If Ranged was super nerfed when WM is gone, I'd actually be happier, lol.

[MrShandavio]

I don't even know if I have WM on my giant. And I've got trans.

[Kurezan]

I'd invest into some hardcore defense.

[Osayidan]

If they remove WM, the servers go offline. The power of the spinning motion is what powers mabinogi servers, kinda like hamsters in a wheel.

[starpaw7]

If I got all my AP back I'd cry in happiness and rank up whatever the *** I want :blood:

[Tedio]

I would shed a man-tear.

Then just abuse giants faster loading smash...

[Moppy]

...

I can't imagine it. SO SCARY! But in all seriousness, I'd probably stop using my giant and become a human. Without Windmill to handle multi aggro, I'd have to be more versatile.

[Ninjam]

I would destroy something (or someone, but thats not the point).

[Nevermind]

Would most likely move to AR/Protective Wall abuse, with Golem Summoning in case I need the melee.

Essentially I'd remake into an Elf..

[Sleet]

Hay. Just because we don't have decent Int or a decent range skill doesn't mean we depend solely on WM. I wasn't even able to use WM decently until R9 because of the glitch in giant's WM range.

If WM were removed, I'd be disappointed, but I'd still play. Smash + charge + smash is good tact more giants should use and I'd rely on it more. Maybe we could figure out something with stomp when it becomes uncapped and y'know, usable.

Then there's Wind Guard. That could sorta be a WM replacement.. sort of.

I dare you to try, TRY soloing shadow wiz HM without windmill. It's literally impossible.
Any character can have decent int, and to be honest I think I've dabbled in many skills giants wouldn't even touch. (I have over 350 base int).

That charge combo only works for 1 v 1, which doesn't apply to most of the dungeons and shadow missions of higher difficult, not to mention one PD could entirely mess up your combo chain.

Only reason I can pull through is windmill.

I don't know if I could even solo shining karu without windmill without horribly abusing Life Drain.

[Majikaru]

Sounds terrible. I couldn't do many things without windmill...
So I'd probably rank blaze.

[Rei]

Imagine if they actually did take it out. All those months I spent slaving over zombies and such to rank it for squat. I'd probably crawl into a fetal position and cry myself to sleep.


But I don't usually depend on it too much, despite it being R1. I like to play it safe, depending on other skills like defense and counter, haha. It wouldn't change my tactics too much....but I'd probably die a lot quicker from multi-aggro....

[Trigger]

If they took windmill out of the game I wouldn't have a bunch of people overrating the skill breathing down my neck about it. That skill has killed me more than it has saved me. Nothing special about it. I only use it in the middle of combos, but that only works for crappy the AI most of the time.

Your first sentence is true, and there'd be a lot less people going OMG OMG OMG THE ONLY SKILL YOU NEED IS WINDMILL.

The rest is indicative of poor playing and/or poor connection. Windmill is one of the most universally useful skills in the game, and packs a massive punch if you use it properly. If you're dying a lot because of Windmill use, you need more practice or better Internet or both.

[Valencia]

Your first sentence is true, and there'd be a lot less people going OMG OMG OMG THE ONLY SKILL YOU NEED IS WINDMILL.

The rest is indicative of poor playing and/or poor connection. Windmill is one of the most universally useful skills in the game, and packs a massive punch if you use it properly. If you're dying a lot because of Windmill use, you need more practice or better Internet or both.

Not really. Just because I've died from using it does not indicate poor connection or playing. That's just an assumption. I don't need practice. I just find myself using windmill to hit an enemy when they charge (not the skill) me instead of using counter or defense. Most of the time when I click when an enemy is in my range(when they are charging towards me), it completely ignores my command, and in half a second the enemy hits me.
Edit: So I'm probably just using it wrong.

[Trigger]

Not really. Just because I've died from using it does not indicate poor connection or playing. That's just an assumption. I don't need practice. I just find myself using windmill to hit an enemy when they charge (not the skill) me instead of using counter or defense. Most of the time when I click when an enemy is in my range(when they are charging towards me), it completely ignores my command, and in half a second the enemy hits me.

Uh...that's called poor Internet, more specifically "position lag". The place you think you're in isn't the place the server sees you in, which is why things that appear to be in your range can't be hit (they're not within range of your real location). There is no assumption here; if you are dying because of Windmill, you either need to play better, or you need a better connection so your client syncs up better with the server. That's all there is to it.

[Juno]

I can solo wiz adv without windmill, haven't tried hard .-.

Used wind guard a lot though...a lot...

[Valencia]

Uh...that's called poor Internet, more specifically "position lag". The place you think you're in isn't the place the server sees you in, which is why things that appear to be in your range can't be hit (they're not within range of your real location). There is no assumption here; if you are dying because of Windmill, you either need to play better, or you need a better connection so your client syncs up better with the server. That's all there is to it.

I could go on as to how "play better" is extremely subjective, but I didn't intend to start an argument or debate. I'll just drop it.

[Crimmy]

I dare you to try, TRY soloing shadow wiz HM without windmill. It's literally impossible.
Any character can have decent int, and to be honest I think I've dabbled in many skills giants wouldn't even touch. (I have over 350 base int).

That charge combo only works for 1 v 1, which doesn't apply to most of the dungeons and shadow missions of higher difficult, not to mention one PD could entirely mess up your combo chain.

Only reason I can pull through is windmill.

I don't know if I could even solo shining karu without windmill without horribly abusing Life Drain.

Can I please have a discussion without some snarky reply? ewe

I know any character can have decent Int, look at Vejosa. I'm just saying we have lower Int than humans and elves and have to work harder to get it decent. That's common knowledge.

Also, I don't solo much. I think it's horribly boring and not worth my time. I like playing the game to have fun, not waste my life trying to be "pro" at a free mmo. I have better things to do in life.

[MrShandavio]

Also, I don't solo much. I think it's horribly boring and not worth my time. I like playing the game to have fun, not waste my life trying to be "pro" at a free mmo. I have better things to do in life.

I only solo because I have no friends. :(

[Frawmus]

I'd be mostly unaffected. I hardly use windmill, but I guess I'd miss the bonuses.

[Crimmy]

I only solo because I have no friends. :(

:< *E-Hug?*

[MrShandavio]

:< *E-Hug?*

It's okay. I'm not looking for pity. I'm serious, though. I have, I think, two or three people on my friends list. So more often than not, I'm solo-ing. It's boring and difficult. :P

[Lan]

I would Get Rank 1 Lightning, Thunder and spark and become an electric zerger :D

[Crimmy]

It's okay. I'm not looking for pity. I'm serious, though. I have, I think, two or three people on my friends list. So more often than not, I'm solo-ing. It's boring and difficult. :P

Ah I don't pity ya, I just know how ya feel. I used to have only four on my F-list for a while. Then I just started be'n friendly and helping random people... Now I have so many I can't even use the Blacklist feature. x_x;

[MrShandavio]

Ah I don't pity ya, I just know how ya feel. I used to have only four on my F-list for a while. Then I just started be'n friendly and helping random people... Now I have so many I can't even use the Blacklist feature. x_x;

I see. I guess I don't play enough nor have the desire to make a lot of friends. So I often do things alone or with a person as a one-time kind of thing.

[Sleet]

Can I please have a discussion without some snarky reply? ewe

I know any character can have decent Int, look at Vejosa. I'm just saying we have lower Int than humans and elves and have to work harder to get it decent. That's common knowledge.

Also, I don't solo much. I think it's horribly boring and not worth my time. I like playing the game to have fun, not waste my life trying to be "pro" at a free mmo. I have better things to do in life.

Well, that still doesn't answer my question. I asked if we can deal without it. And you responded with a "snarky" comment of your own which had nothing to do with dealing with or without windmill.

We all have lives, not just you.

Int doesn't really matter when you have over a certain amount (around 200 not sure of the exact number). And it requires the same amount of effort to get it (same AP costs for magics, actually elves have to work "harder"). So having 400 or 350 hardly makes any difference.

I'll cut off my comment here because I have a feeling this discussion is going to head off in the wrong direction.

[RicochetOrange]

Start playing again.

Ranking Windmill is boring.

[Kyouriharu]

I dare you to try, TRY soloing shadow wiz HM without windmill. It's literally impossible.
Any character can have decent int, and to be honest I think I've dabbled in many skills giants wouldn't even touch. (I have over 350 base int).

That charge combo only works for 1 v 1, which doesn't apply to most of the dungeons and shadow missions of higher difficult, not to mention one PD could entirely mess up your combo chain.

Only reason I can pull through is windmill.

I don't know if I could even solo shining karu without windmill without horribly abusing Life Drain.

...I did it... With Ranged and Ice Spear ;O;

Oh yeah, and with Barrier Spikes and looooooots of SP potions.

[Syrphid]

I think the game would be more fun without wm. Imagine a party of 4 mid-levels taking on Peaca; what would that look like? What would they do, now that center spinning --> corner spinning is no longer possible? What complex player-pet maneuvers would become integral to party play?

Indeed, dungeon running would be a lot slower. Surviving multi aggro would be far more difficult, and the typical player would not usually solo hard dungeons. Would this be so bad?

[Lyrveil]

Syrphid you make the "removal of windmill" sound so awesome. Personally I wouldn't be affected, sure I enjoy my rank 5 windmill but I never planned to raise it. Argument about soloing hard shadow mission? I don't know I hate soloing anyway, playing with friend is what make mabinogi so fun for me.

[Justified]

Indeed, dungeon running would be a lot slower. Surviving multi aggro would be far more difficult, and the typical player would not usually solo hard dungeons. Would this be so bad?

Mabinogi is the only MMO I've played that has productive solo play past the beginner levels.
Because soloing is so effective, the party factor is pretty weak. It's almost impossible to party with randoms (they'll either leech or suck) and even end-game tasks (Peaca, Field Bosses) can be handled with little to no cooperation, as long as the strongest member has some meatshields and aggrobaits.
Strategizing and intense cooperative play is far more entertaining than solo accomplishments, and are also way more fun to watch. Mabi lacks that.

The Provocation mission is currently my favorite, because it actually requires three decent members to accomplish. While it still doesn't foster group play, it's a step closer.

[Sleet]

...I did it... With Ranged and Ice Spear ;O;

Oh yeah, and with Barrier Spikes and looooooots of SP potions.
This is impressive (no doubt) but this question was posed to another giant, without the aid of range. :)

[Arrionso]

I'd probably end up having more fun with melee as an elf. Having Windmill taken away would force me to use things such as defense and counter so things would be varied again.

[Zid]

... and the typical player would not usually solo hard dungeons.

=<

Opinion belittles me. v.v

[Crimmy]

Well, that still doesn't answer my question. I asked if we can deal without it. And you responded with a "snarky" comment of your own which had nothing to do with dealing with or without windmill.

We all have lives, not just you.

Int doesn't really matter when you have over a certain amount (around 200 not sure of the exact number). And it requires the same amount of effort to get it (same AP costs for magics, actually elves have to work "harder"). So having 400 or 350 hardly makes any difference.

I'll cut off my comment here because I have a feeling this discussion is going to head off in the wrong direction.

You're not making any sense, sorry.

Someone said WM is what makes giants playable. I disagreed and stated that while we have our downsides, WM isn't our only saving factor and listed some possible skills that we would rely on more. Then you come in and bash the fact that I don't worship WM. Is WM great? Yeah, I use it a lot and if it were removed, I would be disappointed like I said. Would I throw a total hissy fit? No. I'd figure out something different to do. Magic and Alch is always another way to go even if we don't have range.

I have no idea why you're bringing Int into this discussion other than to prove me wrong over.. I don't even know what. Make yourself look pro I guess? I already told you that I think all races are capable of decent Int and it is a fact that giants have to work harder to get it. Does it cost elves slightly higher ap? Yeah. But they already have decent Int base so they may only have to get half the skill rank that giants have to get to get anywhere near them. I have RA Magic Mastery and only 80 max MP. That is nothing without mp potions. My Int is 54 base with D Pot and D Herbalism and C FBolt. Obviously, magic isn't a very high priority to me but again, this is pathetic compared to my human/elf friends who are near the same lvl as me or even LOWER than me. Oh, and they don't even rank Potion or even HAVE Herbalism.

You wanna say elves have to work harder for decent Int?

Either way, it's a what-if scenario. Don't worry, all-holy WM won't be going anywhere anytime soon. I am done taking this thread off-track just because you want to argue over it.

[Syrphid]

=<

Opinion belittles me. v.v

Is it so bad to be "typical", to be in the majority?


Mabinogi is the only MMO I've played that has productive solo play past the beginner levels.
Because soloing is so effective, the party factor is pretty weak. It's almost impossible to party with randoms (they'll either leech or suck) and even end-game tasks (Peaca, Field Bosses) can be handled with little to no cooperation, as long as the strongest member has some meatshields and aggrobaits.
Strategizing and intense cooperative play is far more entertaining than solo accomplishments, and are also way more fun to watch. Mabi lacks that.

The Provocation mission is currently my favorite, because it actually requires three decent members to accomplish. While it still doesn't foster group play, it's a step closer.

Provocation stinks. I just sit on the sidelines flapping my wings, wishing I didn't dump all my fireball crystals (+ fed my cylinder to ego). D;

[Zid]

Is it so bad to be "typical", to be in the majority?

Oh, no, I meant I consider myself to be a "typical" player, then I read "solo advance dungeons."

I'm just befuddled with the perspective here.

[Trigger]

Mabinogi is the only MMO I've played that has productive solo play past the beginner levels.
Because soloing is so effective, the party factor is pretty weak. It's almost impossible to party with randoms (they'll either leech or suck) and even end-game tasks (Peaca, Field Bosses) can be handled with little to no cooperation, as long as the strongest member has some meatshields and aggrobaits.
Strategizing and intense cooperative play is far more entertaining than solo accomplishments, and are also way more fun to watch. Mabi lacks that.

The Provocation mission is currently my favorite, because it actually requires three decent members to accomplish. While it still doesn't foster group play, it's a step closer.

The lack of party-based play is precisely why I continue to play Mabinogi after more than two years. It's one of the few MMORPGs that actually allows me to FUNCTION as a single, independent entity. I don't have to have a highly-specialized group of tanks'n'healers to get something done.

Granted, I too would like to see some real, effective, worthwhile party missions (G9 Final comes to mind, having one of the game's best EXP yields and not dividing that EXP up based on party size, and actually FUN), but overall I must say Mabinogi's emphasis on training yourself and becoming strong enough to stand on your own two feet is the reason I still play today. If I fail, I have only myself to blame (or my Internet connection, which is an aside). I don't have to rely on multiple people to keep the entire group alive.

If you want something done right, do it yourself. That's always been my motto.

[Syrphid]

=<

Opinion belittles me. v.v


Oh, no, I meant I consider myself to be a "typical" player, then I read "solo advance dungeons."

I'm just befuddled with the perspective here.

Mmm I see. If you read far into the words someone uses, you would pick up on their beliefs. Many people do solo hard dungeons on a normal basis, and I do consider that level of performance typical. It was not my intention to belittle players who aren't able to, sorry.

Still, I do think that hard dungeons aren't really challenging enough, and I do think that removing wm would make the game more engaging at all levels of play.

[Aubog007]

If you want something done right, do it yourself. That's always been my motto.

Allow me to shorten this to the point of extreme clarity

Ya dang right.

I enjoy the rewarding combat system and life skill system in this game. The End

[Justified]

The lack of party-based play is precisely why I continue to play Mabinogi after more than two years. It's one of the few MMORPGs that actually allows me to FUNCTION as a single, independent entity. I don't have to have a highly-specialized group of tanks'n'healers to get something done.

Granted, I too would like to see some real, effective, worthwhile party missions (G9 Final comes to mind, having one of the game's best EXP yields and not dividing that EXP up based on party size, and actually FUN)

G9 Final (the Finale) can easily be soloed. The Last Battle requires a party, but still requires very little party cooperation - everybody still solos their respective mobs and doesn't falter if somebody else dies. I don't consider these as good "group" tasks.

By all means, soloing can be fun when you're fighting things like Claimh or suicide attempting Wizard Hard solo, but there should be party dependent things as well. This is an MMO after all. Mabinogi doesn't have to adhere to the strict tanks+healers format, just make extremely beast monsters, kind of like field bosses except susceptible to stun and with much more reactive attacks.

[Zeo]

Would not change me at all. I nevers use windmill, lol. o-o

-is mage and alchemy hybrid-

[Trigger]

G9 Final (the Finale) can easily be soloed. The Last Battle requires a party, but still requires very little party cooperation - everybody still solos their respective mobs and doesn't falter if somebody else dies. I don't consider these as good "group" tasks.

Never said it couldn't be soloed. I merely said that taking a party into a G9 Final is actually productive, as your EXP gains are not nerfed because of your party size (everyone still gets the same mission completion bonus) and running it with a large party is far faster, making easy grinding for everyone involved.

You seem to want to see the entire party go down if one person dies and isn't doing their part. My character's survivability shouldn't depend on the competence or luck of my fellow combatants. I should be able to survive with or without them. This is why I don't play more "traditional" MMORPGs that force players to depend on one another to get anything done. That's the reason I left Maple -- you simply couldn't do anything fun or productive without having a good party, resulting in hours upon hours of sheer boredom, whereas in Mabinogi I can do pretty much whatever I feel like doing alone, without needing to first find a bunch of people willing to spend their time doing it with me.

[Sleet]

You're not making any sense, sorry.

Someone said WM is what makes giants playable. I disagreed and stated that while we have our downsides, WM isn't our only saving factor and listed some possible skills that we would rely on more. Then you come in and bash the fact that I don't worship WM. Is WM great? Yeah, I use it a lot and if it were removed, I would be disappointed like I said. Would I throw a total hissy fit? No. I'd figure out something different to do. Magic and Alch is always another way to go even if we don't have range.

I have no idea why you're bringing Int into this discussion other than to prove me wrong over.. I don't even know what. Make yourself look pro I guess? I already told you that I think all races are capable of decent Int and it is a fact that giants have to work harder to get it. Does it cost elves slightly higher ap? Yeah. But they already have decent Int base so they may only have to get half the skill rank that giants have to get to get anywhere near them. I have RA Magic Mastery and only 80 max MP. That is nothing without mp potions. My Int is 54 base with D Pot and D Herbalism and C FBolt. Obviously, magic isn't a very high priority to me but again, this is pathetic compared to my human/elf friends who are near the same lvl as me or even LOWER than me. Oh, and they don't even rank Potion or even HAVE Herbalism.

You wanna say elves have to work harder for decent Int?

Either way, it's a what-if scenario. Don't worry, all-holy WM won't be going anywhere anytime soon. I am done taking this thread off-track just because you want to argue over it.

Let's make it clear. You started the argument. I kept it as a discussion. I never said we were arguing.

When have I said we should all worship windmill? Attack the commentand not the person because you're definitely letting your emotions run in and out of your argument. I only mentioned the int argument because you mentioned it first in this comment below.



Hay. Just because we don't have decent Int or a decent range skill doesn't mean we depend solely on WM. I wasn't even able to use WM decently until R9 because of the glitch in giant's WM range.

I never said anything about int in my very first post. You said that giants don't have decent int. I'm proving that as false. Is that such a thing to fight over? Of course now you say that not everyone has high int as my argument...lol.

Yes, elves/humans have a higher base. My argument is that once your base int gets to a certain point (maxing 2 or so magic skills in addition to music theory to rank 6, which is completely doable because it's the easiest and cheapest life skill EVER), then it doesn't matter how high your int is. This doesn't cost that much AP too.

And about the whole discussion on relying on the other skills more. I was providing counter examples on how those may not work. Is that so wrong to your "unshatterable" image of smash -> assault --> smash?

Again who said I'm trying to make myself pro? I'm just stating things and you're evaluating them as though to make myself look self-conceited. Look past your opinions and look at the statements.

EDIT: I completely intend to stop posting here. If you intend to take it step further, PM me. I intended to stop last post but you insisted in continually insulting me. I will continue posting if you decide to keep taking the wrong ideas from my posts.

[Totoro]

I don't use WM much, so it won't affect me a lot. But I will demand my AP back :O
I'd die a bit more though D: WM is useful to use when there are lots of monsters surrounding you.

[Justified]

You seem to want to see the entire party go down if one person dies and isn't doing their part. My character's survivability shouldn't depend on the competence or luck of my fellow combatants. I should be able to survive with or without them. This is why I don't play more "traditional" MMORPGs that force players to depend on one another to get anything done. That's the reason I left Maple -- you simply couldn't do anything fun or productive without having a good party, resulting in hours upon hours of sheer boredom, whereas in Mabinogi I can do pretty much whatever I feel like doing alone, without needing to first find a bunch of people willing to spend their time doing it with me.

Want one person's fail to kill the entire group? No. Want one person's fail to drastically increase difficulty? Yes.
That's the point of a guild, and the foundation of a healthy community. People who suck will be left behind and forced to get better, resulting in only good players reaching high levels and less high level failures.

When I played Maple about 2 years ago, I had one friend that I did everything with. We got pretty well known for having the fastest and most successful PQ runs. Guild Quest was a joke for three of us, all under level 100, while some three party guilds still took forever to complete it. The only time I was ever bored playing that was when I was soloing something because my friend wasn't on. In Mabi, I'm still bored often even when people are on because nothing requires real teamwork. If I wanted to do everything solo I'd play a console/handheld game, not an MMO.

[Trigger]

If I wanted to do everything solo I'd play a console/handheld game, not an MMO.

Well it just so happens I'm heavily into solo adventure games, so...yeah. =P I prefer to have the ability to act alone, because I tend to be a hell of a lot more dedicated to things than most people I know (meaning I'm online a lot when they are not, such as all-nighters on a regular basis). Don't get me wrong, I too wish Mabi had more things that were favorable to parties, but the combat system simply does not lend itself to that. That's why I mentioned G9 Final as an example of a party-friendly activity, because it is actually BETTER to run it in a party than it is to do it solo (as opposed to regular dungeons, which divide all EXP according to the number of players in the party, reducing EXP gain for everyone).

[♪★ Scandalous ☆ ♫]

I think the game would be more fun without wm. Imagine a party of 4 mid-levels taking on Peaca; what would that look like? What would they do?

They would die, painful, gruesome deaths.

[Drago]

i would also run to nexon and do a real windmill in the middle of the CEO's office :mad2:

[Kyouriharu]

Without Windmill, cooking would be capped rD since we need that windmill to grind that wheat for kneading, ya know. Not to mention that no one can learn Production Mastery since the windmill is required for that beginner quest.