Question on Thunder

[Yogurticecream]

What rank of Thunder will it start to be decent for rafting use?

(I'm still worried about the CP gains)

Considering on rafting with 3-4 people for items like common leather and iron ingots.

[fathippo]

I think its good at rank F o.o, I used to raft a bunch with rank F thunder and it wasnt that bad, its just that you have to charge more to kill less. Yes, thunder is extremely good for rafting just like the other advanced magics, the CP is'nt that bad untill you rank it pretty high, and it depends on your current CP, if its really high and you still need to rank things like taming or WM then it wont make it any easier.

I think this will help, if you havent seen it already: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Thunder

[Majikaru]

I personally wouldn't use it until it's at least rank 5.

[Bankai231]

I personally wouldn't use it until it's at least rank 5.
Well you cant to rank 5 without using it :P
But seriously thunder is a really nice skill for rafting. It hits a lot of targets at once. I would think about ranking it up but if only for rafting rank it to a lower rank for less cp.

[Trigger]

Rank 1 is obviously best for rafting. If you're going solo, accept no substitute.

If you're rafting with a party, don't even bother using Thunder; use Ice Spear instead. You'll have party members there to steer the raft closer to the riverbanks to let you kill off entire mobs with a single shot. If you'd really rather use Thunder, Rank B gives 2 hits on the first charge, and Rank 6 gives 3. More is obviously better; it's up to you how high you want to take Thunder if you're worried about CP gains.

[EndlessDreams]

If you go in a party, just make sure the other people can kill stuff quickly. You can just pretend to shoot arrows or something. That way, you save AP/have lower CP while still get materials. Of course, pay them mana pots or something.

[adc7516]

I can handle rafting alone with r6 thunder, and get about 10-13 big stars by the time I get to cor. The training there is pretty good because you can attack all those hobgoblins at once. Though, r1 is recommended because you can hit 5 hobgoblins with one charge, so its more efficient, not to mention it does way more damage at r1...

Thunder burns mana like crazy because the first charge is 40 mana, so you should probably use trans for extra mp. It also makes your cp crazy high. While learning thunder, my cp went up about 300, and by r1, the total cp gain would be around 500. But cp really isn't a problem unless you are wm training or animal taming, right?
:XD:

[Fumy]

I can handle rafting alone with r6 thunder, and get about 10-13 big stars by the time I get to cor.....
:XD:

I easily get a lot more than that with just spaming Magnum... Not worth the MP pots if that's all you can do with r6 thunder :S

[Yogurticecream]

So it's thunder or magnum, which are skills I'm really hesitating to learn...

I guess I'll give up until much later. (Who knows really if I'll still be playing often then.)

[Fumy]

I think Thunder is actually better when you rank it. But well I can kill more with 1 Mag than ppl with 1 fully charged Thunder cuz of splash dmg... I hit hard enough to 1 hit kill with splash dmg so I can get 15-20 kills with 1 shot

[Yogurticecream]

I think Thunder is actually better when you rank it. But well I can kill more with 1 Mag than ppl with 1 fully charged Thunder cuz of splash dmg... I hit hard enough to 1 hit kill with splash dmg so I can get 15-20 kills with 1 shot
How much dex do you have, what rank is your magnum, and what equipments are you using?

I'll very much prefer to use range over magic if it means that I will never need to touch a supply of blue pots. There's also this issue on mana consumption and lag over here.

[Fumy]

320+ Dex can't tell you the actual number cuz I'm ranking life skills like mad and it increases everyday, r1 Magnum, Max dmg equip cuz I already have 85% crit with just my bow.

[rinaek]

For rafting, thunder does a pretty nice job at rank 9. At that point, it can one-shot hobgoblin bowmen and exorcists most of the time. Of course, ranking it up to 6 will make rafting easier and more mana efficient, but that's not necessary.

[Yogurticecream]

320+ Dex can't tell you the actual number cuz I'm ranking life skills like mad and it increases everyday, r1 Magnum, Max dmg equip cuz I already have 85% crit with just my bow.
I have a couple of dex skills and my dex is only 267 x.x What sort of life skills are you focusing on?
If I do complete the range combat it'll only go to 298 at most.

[Fumy]

Doing Weaving right now (almost r4) once I reach r1 I'll have 333 dex. After that I'm gonna get Metallurgy from r8 to r6 and I'll have 335 dex than I'll be finishing Mirage Missile, Counter Attack, Playing Instrument, Tailoring and Handicraft. I should have 370+ dex. Once FS gets uncapped I should have 400+ dex.
It's more time consuming than AP consuming... I'll have enough AP for all these skills in maybe 3-4 weeks.

[Yogurticecream]

Doing Weaving right now (almost r4) once I reach r1 I'll have 333 dex. After that I'm gonna get Metallurgy from r8 to r6 and I'll have 335 dex than I'll be finishing Mirage Missile, Counter Attack, Playing Instrument, Tailoring and Handicraft. I should have 370+ dex. Once FS gets uncapped I should have 400+ dex.
:gloom: Something is really wrong with my stats, or maybe the levels matter (current level 31 because I was busy ranking enchant)....

One more thing, what age is your character usually at?

[Fumy]

Age 10 because I used to weekly rb. But right now I'm in Thailand and dunno how to get NX so she's 12 years old and I'm not leveling cuz I'm busy with life skills and feeding my ego

[Yogurticecream]

Age 10 because I used to weekly rb. But right now I'm in Thailand and dunno how to get NX so she's 12 years old and I'm not leveling cuz I'm busy with life skills and feeding my ego
I see...that explains how there is a lot of dex. My character is usually age 17 because I can't afford to weekly rebirth (and also even if I could afford it, that's too tiring for me with all the life skills to handle).

[Fumy]

I see...that explains how there is a lot of dex. My character is usually age 17 because I can't afford to weekly rebirth (and also even if I could afford it, that's too tiring for me with all the life skills to handle).

Yea I know what you're talking about... Life skills T.T well I'm gonna tell you how much dex I have when I rb on monday for reference. Well just got weaving r4 :D

[Yogurticecream]

Yea I know what you're talking about... Life skills T.T well I'm gonna tell you how much dex I have when I rb on monday for reference. Well just got weaving r4 :D
I'll be sure to note that and compare with the next rebirth stats when I rebirth to age 17 next week. (Along with calculations for age bonuses)
Grats on weaving r4 =)

[Chihaya]

I easily get a lot more than that with just spaming Magnum... Not worth the MP pots if that's all you can do with r6 thunder :S

Even with r1 magnum shot that crits and causes splash dmg, Thunder is better
First of all, the chances of crits are really not that high; capped at 30%. Second, Mag has a chance of "miss", so you can't really get 10-13 BIG STARS consistently. 3rd, you're basically screwed when 3-5 hobgoblins jump on the boat with others firing magic at you; better to take them down at once

I've personally never seen an elf using mag in Rafting; they use more of Thunder or even Fireball and IS. Even with total level OVER 9000!!!!, it'll be quite difficult for an elf to get that many stars in rafting.

[Nyo]

I think I started rafting more often when my thunder was able to hit 3 targets at the initial charge (rank 6). Rank 1 is definitely the best, though. Aiming for at least 16 stars per stop, I rarely have to use any potions with a huge mana pool, transformations, and visits to the mana tunnel in the daytime.

[Yogurticecream]

I think I started rafting more often when my thunder was able to hit 3 targets at the initial charge (rank 6). Rank 1 is definitely the best, though. Aiming for at least 16 stars per stop, I rarely have to use any potions with a huge mana pool, transformations, and visits to the mana tunnel in the daytime.
How much mana do you have?

[Fumy]

Even with r1 magnum shot that crits and causes splash dmg, Thunder is better
First of all, the chances of crits are really not that high; capped at 30%. Second, Mag has a chance of "miss", so you can't really get 10-13 BIG STARS consistently. 3rd, you're basically screwed when 3-5 hobgoblins jump on the boat with others firing magic at you; better to take them down at once

I've personally never seen an elf using mag in Rafting; they use more of Thunder or even Fireball and IS. Even with total level OVER 9000!!!!, it'll be quite difficult for an elf to get that many stars in rafting.

1st I don't need to crit to kill em with splash dmg
2nd Sure it can miss but chances of missing at 99% are really low don't you think so?
3rd You can stay out of range and ever heard of Windmill? :3

[Chihaya]

1st I don't need to crit to kill em with splash dmg
2nd Sure it can miss but chances of missing at 99% are really low don't you think so?
3rd You can stay out of range and ever heard of Windmill? :3

If you're an elf (which i really hope you are for the mag shot charge decrease, your wm will be nerfed. On the other hand, if you ARE a human, your mag shot will be hard to fire cause of its longer charge time. Also, mag shot takes a long time to aim; with the aiming speed increasing logarithmically (increasing fast at first, but becoming slower) so even with r1 range, it's most beneficial to fire it at 60-70%, or you're wasting too much time. That's when you can miss.

In the end, Thunder is beneficial because of its 100% hit rate and multi-targetting feature. As i've said, i've NEVER seen an elf use magnum shot on rafting in Tarlach, so if you can post a video, I think your argument can be plausible.

P.S. I realized that even lag can be a factor.

P.P.S. Yes, i know of windmill, i'm one of the few people in Tarlach who even bothered to take the Dan 3 tests:srsly?:

[Fumy]

If you're an elf (which i really hope you are for the mag shot charge decrease, your wm will be nerfed. On the other hand, if you ARE a human, your mag shot will be hard to fire cause of its longer charge time. Also, mag shot takes a long time to aim; with the aiming speed increasing logarithmically (increasing fast at first, but becoming slower) so even with r1 range, it's most beneficial to fire it at 60-70%, or you're wasting too much time. That's when you can miss.

In the end, Thunder is beneficial because of its 100% hit rate and multi-targetting feature. As i've said, i've NEVER seen an elf use magnum shot on rafting in Tarlach, so if you can post a video, I think your argument can be plausible.

P.S. I realized that even lag can be a factor

I've been rafting with a few mages (rF-r5 Thunder) and I always got more kills. I'm not saying Thunder won't be better at lets say r1 but rafting with Magnum is cheaper (No MP pots) and you can get enough kills for Common Leather/Iron Ingots with 3-4 People without spending money on MP pots.

[Chihaya]

I've been rafting with a few mages (rF-r5 Thunder) and I always got more kills.

Screenshot/Video is requested =P
Here's mine; my friend had rD while I had r6.
http://i41.tinypic.com/2uol2zd.jpg

[EndlessDreams]

I've been rafting with a few mages (rF-r5 Thunder) and I always got more kills. I'm not saying Thunder won't be better at lets say r1 but rafting with Magnum is cheaper (No MP pots) and you can get enough kills for Common Leather/Iron Ingots with 3-4 People without spending money on MP pots.

Is that 3-4 people without killing anything and at per stop?

[21993]

Rank 1 Thunder is the best! 1 Charge will kill 4, which is the number of monsters per wave (standard)

[Chihaya]

I'm not saying Thunder won't be better at lets say r1 but rafting with Magnum is cheaper (No MP pots) and you can get enough kills for Common Leather/Iron Ingots with 3-4 People without spending money on MP pots.

I also don't spend money on MP potions either =P
I just get mana herbs (i get 20 or 30 if i'm lucky) each run, and I use that to make my own potions. I use around 7-8 MP100s, so with one run dedicated to mana herbs, I can get 3 runs dedicated to iron ingots (30 or 40 each run)

Fumy, your argument that Magnum is better in ANY sense is flawed from the beginning. It really seems like you never experienced the power of Thunder in rafting yourself. Please rank Thunder to r6, raft a few times with mana potions, then come back to this thread to clearly state that Magnum Shot is better than Thunder

[Justified]

Thunder is overrated by a lot of people. The Hobgoblins are extremely weak (some even die with a single Icebolt) so I can see how Magnum would be much more efficient than Thunder given the person has enough ranks and Dex. Chaincast Lightningbolt and mid-to-high rank Ice Spear are also feasible, but overlooked because of Thunder fandom.
However, both Thunder and Magnum get the job done. It's way easier to be a Mage (whose damage relies only on the rank of the skill being used) than it is to rank up all the different Range skills and Life skills to go with it - the only obstacle is cost, which doesn't pose a real problem to veteran players.

Personally, I prefer Ballooning over rafting either way. It's much easier and I can get over 51 stars in under 5 minutes just spamming Chaincast Firebolt, and get 18k per turn in without the trouble of selling materials. Firebolt is way less AP than Thunder/Range too.

[EndlessDreams]

I also don't spend money on MP potions either =P
I just get mana herbs (i get 20 or 30 if i'm lucky) each run, and I use that to make my own potions. I use around 7-8 MP100s, so with one run dedicated to mana herbs, I can get 3 runs dedicated to iron ingots (30 or 40 each run)

Fumy, your argument that Magnum is better in ANY sense is flawed from the beginning. It really seems like you never experienced the power of Thunder in rafting yourself. Please rank Thunder to r6, raft a few times with mana potions, then come back to this thread to clearly state that Magnum Shot is better than Thunder

Well yea, if you go rafting for Iron Ingots, you will find yourself having too much mana herbs than you can actually cast Thunder. Also, one of the thing that is good about Thunder is the long reach, and ability to use the time floating around to increase more targets.

Ice Spear and Bolts, while fast, have very short reach. You will have problems in some areas if you aren't purposely rolling your raft toward the monster's direction. I know with Thunder you can often reach either sides of the shores, and have a small frame to throw your Thunder, which can often chain to reach the monsters behind it. Also, if you are just running around with Thunder, monsters can't hit you. I can do rafting many times without getting hit.

The problem with Ice Spear is that it also lacks control as well. You will always know how many targets your Thunder will hit, but never Ice Spear due to its annoying spread.

I used to Magnum/AR my way through the rafting. While it is easy to get a lot of stars like that when you by yourself. It is harder to do it when you have multiple people on you that don't really attack. Also, it is pretty inconsistent due to occasional misses as well. However, Elf Range/magnum would probably fair better.

[Justified]

Ice Spear and Bolts, while fast, have very short reach. You will have problems in some areas if you aren't purposely rolling your raft toward the monster's direction. I know with Thunder you can often reach either sides of the shores, and have a small frame to throw your Thunder, which can often chain to reach the monsters behind it. Also, if you are just running around with Thunder, monsters can't hit you. I can do rafting many times without getting hit.

The problem with Ice Spear is that it also lacks control as well. You will always know how many targets your Thunder will hit, but never Ice Spear due to its annoying spread.

The range is the flaw, but if you're good at steering or have a partner (partner, not group) then it could be better in terms of cost -> profit.
And I mentioned higher rank Ice Spear. Even if you fail at aiming and only hit one mob on the very extreme, you're still guaranteed a lot of kills with one charge. A single charge non-crit for me chained for an additional two explosions, getting me about 7 kills on that wave. If you use one charge Thunder, you risk the mobs surviving in deadly, and also have to cast more than once per wave. While the Thunder range is a very important, it's the only benefit over bolt magic and Ice Spear.
But Rank 4 Fireball crystals from Hard Shadow Missions is just win, it beats everything else if you take the time out to gather/buy them.

[Yogurticecream]

You know what, looking at people using thunder on rafting and all these talk about Thunder is making me wanting to learn thunder before completing my combat skills :T_T:

Now I have to think about what to do @_@

Get ready for a new set of questions on a new thread once I have figured out everything.

[EndlessDreams]

A single charge non-crit for me chained for an additional two explosions, getting me about 7 kills on that wave. If you use one charge Thunder, you risk the mobs surviving in deadly, and also have to cast more than once per wave. While the Thunder range is a very important, it's the only benefit over bolt magic and Ice Spear.


I don't need to steer to get the amount of stars I need with Thunder. The direct money from rafting isn't really profit at all. There are only a few things that are worth a lot of rafting, and is guaranteed. Iron Ingots, Mana Herbs, and maybe Braids.

You highlighted the second major problem of Ice Spear. If you want a controlled amount of stars, Ice Spear properties makes it very hard to control. Thunder don't spread, and it has a set number of targets. The initial shock combined with the Thunderfall, I never have a problem with deadly at all.
Second charge (or third charge), usually done when you are just waiting to get there, will definitely stop stuff from being deadly.

If you want unlimited amount of stars, then Ice Spear is probably the better way. However, the rewards for 30+ stars aren't very good.

[Nyo]

How much mana do you have?A little over 300. I use a mana reduction wand and outfit though, so it feels like I have 500mp.

You know what, looking at people using thunder on rafting and all these talk about Thunder is making me wanting to learn thunder before completing my combat skills :T_T:

Now I have to think about what to do @_@

Get ready for a new set of questions on a new thread once I have figured out everything.I wouldn't get thunder just for rafting. Well, unless you really like to raft. Thunder eats up a lot of AP and raises a lot of CP. I don't really use thunder nowadays when the shadow missions I usually do only spawn sparse mobs with some of them having lightning resistance.

[sakraycore]

So uh how much exploration exp do u get per stop, those who have r5+ thunder?

[Trigger]

Since the demise of the 2x spawns on ch6-7, I'm able to get max exploration EXP on both the first and third stops, because it is now literally impossible to do so at the second stop. This is using Thunder Rank 1, of course.

Now, if I were using Shining Laser, I'd be able to hit those monsters far behind me as they respawn, due to the laser's tremendous range, and I'd get max EXP. But I don't have my laser.

[Yogurticecream]

Since the demise of the 2x spawns on ch6-7, I'm able to get max exploration EXP on both the first and third stops, because it is now literally impossible to do so at the second stop. This is using Thunder Rank 1, of course.

Now, if I were using Shining Laser, I'd be able to hit those monsters far behind me as they respawn, due to the laser's tremendous range, and I'd get max EXP. But I don't have my laser.
I'm thinking about OC fireball, which has since been patched (or maybe resurrected in another form).

I don't do much and when I go rafting with another Thunder mage, I can get to exploration 8 at the very first stop. About 2 entire rafting trips and my exploration should be about 13-14. This is when the cap quests are removed.

[Kyouriharu]

As an elf, I use Ice Spear more while rafting because 20 MP a charge is really a joke. More bang for your buck.

[Justified]

You highlighted the second major problem of Ice Spear. If you want a controlled amount of stars, Ice Spear properties makes it very hard to control. Thunder don't spread, and it has a set number of targets. The initial shock combined with the Thunderfall, I never have a problem with deadly at all.
If you want unlimited amount of stars, then Ice Spear is probably the better way. However, the rewards for 30+ stars aren't very good.

I wasn't considering a certain amount of stars, totally forgot about that.
With ballooning, the gold rewards are above the value of the item prizes so I just shoot continuously until I'm out of mana.