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Virtue
07-26-2010, 11:52 AM
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01092/happy-3_1092744a.jpg

THIS is the sickening moment two thugs from a teenage 'happy-slapping' gang delivered their killer blows on a pensioner — in front of his three-year-old granddaughter.

Leon Elcock, 15 at the time, and Hamza Lyzai, then 14, ambushed frail pensioner Ekram Haque as he left evening prayers at a mosque during the holy month of Ramadan.

The brutes smashed 67-year-old Mr Haque to the ground — the impact of his head hitting the pavement leaving him with fatal brain damage.

CCTV pictures released by cops show little Mariam walking with the grandfather she called 'Papa'.

Amid her crying screams, she attempts to comfort him as he lies on the floor.

Four days earlier Elcock and a pal had stormed the house of a married couple aged 78 and 72 to beat them up.

And a minute before leaving gentle Mr Haque for dead, the trio had also felled two other worshippers outside the mosque in Tooting, South London, rendering one unconscious in hospital.

Elcock and Lyzai — who styled themselves 'The Lane Gang' after Tooting's Church Lane where they lived — admitted manslaughter and charges of assault.

'Fun'

Judge Stephens caged Elcock in a detention centre for four-and-half years and Lyzai for three-and-a-half years — though they are likely to be out next year on licence having already spent 325 days on remand.

A youth aged 15 who joined-in the attack on the old couple in their home was given six months detention after admitting assault.

The judge told them: "You three committed a series of very serious cowardly and deeply unpleasant offences against elderly and vulnerable men and women.

"Other offences were filmed as part of what you saw as fun."

He said to Elcock and Lyzai: "The blows launched on this gentleman led directly to his death. As a result of your so-called bit of fun, he was deprived of a full and contented life and his family of a devoted and inspiring and beloved grandfather and father who played a large part in the daily care of his granddaughter."

Mariam's father legal adviser Arfan Haque, 35, of Letchworth, Herts, today branded the sentences "a joke" and added: "They should have been locked away for longer."

In an impact statement read out at the Old Bailey, he said: "I was devastated that the attack happened right outside my father's place of worship.

"My grandfather was the primary carer for Mariam as I am a single father. After the attack Mariam was very traumatised.

"She is frightened of hoods and wary of seeing boys in the street. She regularly has nightmares. I had to explain to her they were only dreams.

"She says 'I miss my papa', they had a special relationship. She still talks about my father and the attack that night.

"It is a dreadful loss. My father was a very loving individual, he was a very special man, a peaceful man.

"I hope the boys who did this realise the gravity of what they have done."

The court heard mobile phone footage recovered from one gang member's house revealed the hoodies launching six violent slap-attacks before which they brazenly announced: "Lane Gang Productions."

One shown to the court was on a London bus driver sitting in his cab reading a paper who was approached with the trigger phrase: "Have you got the time?"

However, none of the attacks for which they were sentenced were recorded on their phones.

The judge heard the elderly couple, Jushbhai and Jasumati Patel, asked several youths sitting on their garden wall to go away, but Elcock and his mate rushed inside their house and battered them.

Mr Patel was left with a heel mark in his chest.

Four days later Elcock and Lyzai targeted the two men Ataa-il Hasan Mir and Imdad Bukari standing outside the mosque.

They had earlier been to Notting Hill Carnival, and were heard saying before the assaults it was "fighting time" and they were going to "bang someone".

They ran off laughing seconds before striking Calcutta-born Mr Haque, a retired warden in a disabled home, on August 31 last year. His life support machine was switched off a week later.

That night Lyzai injured a finger climbing a wall and went to St George's Hospital in Tooting, where it was amputated.

Three fellow gang members went to see their friend, but when a female nurse denied them admission a 12-year-old boy threatened to stab her.

Barrister Michael Wood, for Elcock — suspended from school after a violent attack on a teacher — said the defendant had written a note to the Haque family expressing remorse.

Nigel Lambert, for Lyzai, said his client had become involved in "a few short moments of madness".

Oliver Blunt, representing the third gang member who could not be named, added: "They were young bored listless youths who sought entertainment in this extremely unpleasant and distorted fashion."

Source: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3068885/Happy-slap-pair-jailed-for-8yrs.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

Disgusting. 4,5 and 3,5 years for taking a man's life.

If that was my father I'd gladly wait until those little ****s get out and then give them an eye for an eye.

Tomates
07-26-2010, 12:13 PM
In front of the granddaughter? That's just sad :(

Hiccup
07-26-2010, 12:18 PM
That girl is gonna be scarred for life. And that sentence was nothing T_T

Zid
07-26-2010, 12:20 PM
Not just taking a man's life, but, in front of a religious place, taking an ELDERLY man's life in front of his granddaughter whom had a very devoted relationship to him, traumatizing her, possibly scarring her for life. For fun.

That's not manslaughter. That's a felony murder. First degree murder is a capital offense, and is punishable with execution in the States. These kids are lucky they're of the minor age, and living over wherever they are.

I can't believe they were doing all these stuff before (including that one involving the guy having his life support shut off), and yet, nobody stopped them. And this man died for it.

Axx
07-26-2010, 02:01 PM
— though they are likely to be out next year on licence having already spent 325 days on remand.

But despite how you many want to punish them, it's not first-degree murder unless it's explicitly shown that it was A. planned with B. the intent to kill. You're lacking B.

Cucurbita
07-26-2010, 02:05 PM
I'd strap them up and beat them. Every day.

Serathx
07-26-2010, 02:16 PM
Our justice system is &*^%ed up. Seriously &*^%ed up.
Also, it's disgusting how animals like these enjoy deriving pain and suffering from others.
It's simply deplorable.
I wonder why humans love killing each other.

Zid
07-26-2010, 02:24 PM
But despite how you many want to punish them, it's not first-degree murder unless it's explicitly shown that it was A. planned with B. the intent to kill. You're lacking B.


They ran off laughing seconds before striking Calcutta-born Mr Haque, a retired warden in a disabled home, on August 31 last year. His life support machine was switched off a week later.

You can take this part any way, but looking at it, it shows how they didn't care for a human life even though this person died. You can argue whether or not they knew afterward he died from being unsustainable from life support because of what the two teens did.

And now they did the same to this elderly man. Let's say they knew the previous person died, yet they did this to the old man and he died. What does they say about them? Or their view of human life? Even after killing people, if they still disregard others' lives so callously just so they can have "fun", it brings up the question of whether or not they care about the consequences of killing.

After what happened here, and before, it doesn't seem to me that their intent is to not kill. Again, anybody can take this either way (safely or what have you). Some might consider it a lesser crime (manslaughter or 2nd/3rd degree murder), but from how I view it, it's first degree.

Serathx
07-26-2010, 02:31 PM
Personally? Manslaughter is nothing.
As Zid said, these monsters have no respect for human life whatsoever.
This leads me to believe that after jail they'll kill again. I'm not a psychologist though.

Kazuni
07-26-2010, 02:45 PM
Calling them monsters isn't right.

BobYoMeowMeow
07-26-2010, 02:50 PM
what a weak punishment

Lan
07-26-2010, 03:14 PM
I wonder why humans love killing each other.

Don't compare normal people to sociopaths.

Sociopaths would laugh at the site of a kitten/baby on fire. Would NORMAL people?

Serathx
07-26-2010, 03:19 PM
Calling them monsters isn't right.

They're bad enough to me to be considered monsters.

Kazuni
07-26-2010, 03:22 PM
They're bad enough to me to be considered monsters.

"Monster" is a purely insulting word that makes you appear to be closed-minded.
They're human beings, too, just like you. Something made them that way, whether it be trauma, or just a different view on life. Maybe one that you would consider gruesome, but they're people.
What if someone kept referring to you as a monster and a sociopath because you did something you considered was right, but everyone else frowned upon it?

Axx
07-26-2010, 03:25 PM
You can take this part any way, but looking at it, it shows how they didn't care for a human life even though this person died. You can argue whether or not they knew afterward he died from being unsustainable from life support because of what the two teens did.

And now they did the same to this elderly man. Let's say they knew the previous person died, yet they did this to the old man and he died. What does they say about them? Or their view of human life? Even after killing people, if they still disregard others' lives so callously just so they can have "fun", it brings up the question of whether or not they care about the consequences of killing.

After what happened here, and before, it doesn't seem to me that their intent is to not kill. Again, anybody can take this either way (safely or what have you). Some might consider it a lesser crime (manslaughter or 2nd/3rd degree murder), but from how I view it, it's first degree.

You misunderstand me, I agree they're horrible people, but the law is against you. You would never be able to charge these kids with first-degree murder. Not caring about human life isn't illegal. Regardless, first degree is specifically pre-meditated with an intent to kill. And not having an intent to not kill isn't the same as having an intent to kill. I also doubt that you'd be able to prove premeditation -- it's too easy to just say it was a spur of the moment thing, and there's no voice records for the crimes they were actually charged with, just other ones that apparently went ignored.

[Actually, I think under most modern laws, you CAN'T use the evidence about the other events that was recorded on the phone against them. You have to bring separate charges and can only use that evidence for those charges.]

Serathx
07-26-2010, 03:40 PM
"Monster" is a purely insulting word that makes you appear to be closed-minded.
They're human beings, too, just like you. Something made them that way, whether it be trauma, or just a different view on life. Maybe one that you would consider gruesome, but they're people.
What if someone kept referring to you as a monster and a sociopath because you did something you considered was right, but everyone else frowned upon it?

So it's right to kill people for fun then as long as from your point of view it's all dandy and fine?
If you ask me trauma isn't an excuse for killing people like that. Neither is a different viewpoint on life.

Seviraph
07-26-2010, 03:41 PM
._. yeah our justice system is definately screwed up, I say corporal punishment

it bugs me that they went after defenseless elderly people
and that they did it multiple times o-e

what's the point of not being able to use evidence of another crime they commited? o_O (so that the judge won't have to deal with more stress?)

Kazuni
07-26-2010, 03:47 PM
So it's right to kill people for fun then as long as from your point of view it's all dandy and fine?
If you ask me trauma isn't an excuse for killing people like that. Neither is a different viewpoint on life.

So it's right to call someone a monster?

Lan
07-26-2010, 04:18 PM
So it's right to kill people for fun then as long as from your point of view it's all dandy and fine?
If you ask me trauma isn't an excuse for killing people like that. Neither is a different viewpoint on life.

Give a monkey a gun and if it shoots someone.

Zid
07-26-2010, 11:59 PM
Not caring about human life isn't illegal.

Not caring about human life mentally is fine, yes, but putting it into action is another story.


Regardless, first degree is specifically pre-meditated with an intent to kill. And not having an intent to not kill isn't the same as having an intent to kill.

Yes, that'd be doable if it wasn't a first time thing. These teens' actions aren't their first time, and also not less in severity. An elderly man is stated to have been put off life support a week after the teens struck him. Whether or not a caustic connection can be put there, the teens did not lessen their intent.

As for the intent, maybe I'm being limited in scope of thought here, but, to me, not having an intent to not kill already lends itself to the possibility of having the proposed intent. If I'm not thinking to myself "I shouldn't commit homicide" in a situation like this, while it could mean "I might just eat lunch," it also means I already opened to myself the possibility of doing it, since the idea is not prevented from occurring and shaping the person's behavior.

And I seriously doubt it's "I might eat lunch" when I already committed similar crimes before me in quick succession.


I also doubt that you'd be able to prove premeditation -- it's too easy to just say it was a spur of the moment thing, and there's no voice records for the crimes they were actually charged with, just other ones that apparently went ignored.

Again, it's easy to say it's also not a spur of the moment thing, when you consider the teens' past actions. Whether or not the jurisdiction will receive or even use evidence in judgment, that is up to them.

Axx
07-27-2010, 01:27 AM
I agree with your entire post. But you'd never be able to convict the teens of 1st degree murder in a US-based court of law. Most countries share the same general legal system, so that probably also applies to whichever court they were actually tried in.

Chillax
07-27-2010, 02:06 AM
So it's right to kill people for fun then as long as from your point of view it's all dandy and fine?
If you ask me trauma isn't an excuse for killing people like that. Neither is a different viewpoint on life.

It's not an excuse, but it would be better to attempt to understand the mindset of these people when they commit these acts of violence. Simply dismissing them as monsters certainly doesn't help prevention of future cases, and further alienation might make them even worse. That brings us to the purpose of their punishment: will they become better citizens after wasting years of their life in jail, or will they commit the same crimes again, with hatred to spur them on?

Chockeh
07-27-2010, 04:32 PM
The granddaughter is just 3 years old... And they enjoyed it too...
I kinda wished people like this would just die, but like you guys said... Its better to understand their situation or something.

Serathx
07-27-2010, 04:34 PM
It's not an excuse, but it would be better to attempt to understand the mindset of these people when they commit these acts of violence. Simply dismissing them as monsters certainly doesn't help prevention of future cases, and further alienation might make them even worse. That brings us to the purpose of their punishment: will they become better citizens after wasting years of their life in jail, or will they commit the same crimes again, with hatred to spur them on?

In that case then yes, I agree with what you're saying.
Meh. I suppose I'm just not optimistic enough to consider that this sort of thing will stop.

Kurezan
07-28-2010, 09:18 AM
And I question our justice system once more..

pinkkea
07-28-2010, 01:23 PM
My god. Somebody comfort the granddaughter 24/7.

Axx
07-28-2010, 02:13 PM
And I question our justice system once more..
They're 15 and 14. It's also not in the US, so our justice system doesn't have anything to do with it, but the very fact that the criminals are 15 and 14 years old means the average person will go soft on them. After all, they're just kids, right? Children are pure and innocent creatures meant to be protected. Either that or it's not really their fault. It's society's fault for making them that way. >.>

Hiccup
07-28-2010, 02:16 PM
Justice systems around the world are similar though.

It could have happened here

Kurezan
07-29-2010, 08:06 AM
Justice systems around the world are similar though.

It could have happened here

Yeah exactly.

Also, if someone murdered my father like this, I would kill them, regardless of the costs of doing it.