G13 grievances addressed?

[Chockeh]

Edit button? :<

[Hiccup]

i haven't went on test server in a while, but the patchlog said walter will be taking care of it.
:I only walter?

[Chockeh]

At least someone is doing something in Nexon.

[abc33kr]

:I only walter?

meh its better than fleta rite? xP

[Hiccup]

Yeah but they should have at least one NPC in each town contribute to it instead of hauling to Dun

[Chockeh]

It should be Tracy.

[sakraycore]

I TL;DR all 26 pages, can someone summarize what happened in the previous 26 pages? >_>

[Chockeh]

People giving their opinion and arguing over the first page.

[oddy231]

I TL;DR all 26 pages, can someone summarize what happened in the previous 26 pages? >_>

Devcat had a great class system then stuff hit the fan because classes and Mabinogi aren't congruent to the fantasy life or something along those lines. So they turned it into a small buff(like really small), faster skill training job system.

So hybrids are happy they're still the best and specialized people got hope shoved into their faces and then snatched away in less then three days.

[abc33kr]

hybrids are people who finished a specialized build and moving on to another specialized build.

you can't possibly use both thunder while ARing.

so how exactly are hybrids stronger than specialized people?
the argument that class system balances the difference between pure and hybrids is flawed in the sense that mabinogi was balanced before g13.

[Chockeh]

I don't think hybrid's would be stronger then specialized characters in any game.
Just that they may do more stuff.

[Aubog007]

I consider a hybrid a person who would naturally switch between range and magic or melee and alchemy in the midst of battle if needed.

A specialist would be one who prefers and sets up both his weapons slots as one type (2 bows, 2 cylinders, 2 swords ect.)

[abc33kr]

Imo mabi balancing is based on sets of skill (such as range vs. meele vs. magic vs. alchemy) instead of builds (pure vs. hybrid).

The difference between meele pure and meele/range hybrid is that:

meele pure-> you only fight with meele.
meele/range hybrid-> you fight with meele and when you get bored of meele, you switch off to a bow to have fun with a different type of fighting.

how is there a difference in the two? they both have the same skills capped at same ranks with same stats.

but with class system, meele gets advantage over meele/range hybrid, which isn't fair.

[oddy231]

hybrids are people who finished a specialized build and moving on to another specialized build.

you can't possibly use both thunder while ARing.

so how exactly are hybrids stronger than specialized people?
the argument that class system balances the difference between pure and hybrids is flawed in the sense that mabinogi was balanced before g13.

Because some people don't want to, or can't leave the branch they specialized in. Under the current system you are forced to become a hybrid once you're done with the branch you're in, some people don't want that. And because you don't want to or can't branch out the person that doesn't will always be stronger then you because now they have those extra skills to give them an edge. The old class system gave extra skills for the specialized person to rank so they don't have to leave their branch of combat to be on the same level as someone that has left their branch. But they made it come at such a huge skill cost that you'd have know way of becoming even a little big hybrid to balance out power.

[abc33kr]

Because some people don't want to, or can't leave the branch they specialized in. Under the current system you are forced to become a hybrid once you're done with the branch you're in, some people don't want that. And because you don't want to or can't branch out the person that doesn't will always be stronger then you because now they have those extra skills to give them an edge. The old class system gave extra skills for the specialized person to rank so they don't have to leave their branch of combat to be on the same level as someone that has left their branch. But they made it come at such a huge skill cost that you'd have know way of becoming even a little big hybrid to balance out power.

From what you have stated, it seemed like G13 skills were only available to hybrids.
"you don't want to or can't branch out the person that doesn't will always be stronger then you because now they have those extra skills to give them an edge."
pure people are able to rank those extra skills. nobody has an edge other anyone, all are equal.

Also from what you have stated, it seemed as if hybrids are stronger than pures and that a balancing was required to bring them equal.
"The old class system gave extra skills for the specialized person to rank so they don't have to leave their branch of combat to be on the same level as someone that has left their branch."
Explain to me in facts and logic how hybrids are stronger than meele pure when faced with the fact that
meele/range hybrid and meele pure have exactly same str (since skills give same stats to everyone). the range skills that the meele/range hybrid ranked will not affect the damage calculation as dex doesn't improve meele damage.


Also, if you want to be purely any class, save ur ap. As you will be able to rank those new skills coming out way before those hybrids out of ap trying to rank all the skills in the game.

[Seviraph]

I was about to make a giant wall of text with gaps in it but decided that was too much

people aren't really agreeing with the fact that

the old system did need some adjustments

the new system failed at their original plans

and that they should've really put more restrictions on equipment for a class system (alchemists already have their suits)

hell restrictions on them are alot better than lvl requirements for equipment like every other MMO out there and still keeps a somewhat class-like aspect (and there's already a racial restriction on equipment anyways) (I'd say equipment has already started becomming a more important part of what makes someone strong/swayed from mabi's original eer way of things? but it's not such a huge difference though)

[oddy231]

I was about to make a giant wall of text with gaps in it but decided that was too much

people aren't really agreeing with the fact that

the old system did need some adjustments

the new system failed at their original plans

and that they should've really put more restrictions on equipment for a class system (alchemists already have their suits)

hell restrictions on them are alot better than lvl requirements for equipment like every other MMO out there and still keeps a somewhat class-like aspect (and there's already a racial restriction on equipment anyways) (I'd say equipment has already started becomming a more important part of what makes someone strong/swayed from mabi's original eer way of things? but it's not such a huge difference though)

This is what I'm trying to say. They went from one extreme to the other, this extreme being extremely lame. Meeting in the middle would have been better.

[Moppy]

This is what I'm trying to say. They went from one extreme to the other, this extreme being extremely lame. Meeting in the middle would have been better.

But at least this extreme is better than the old one.

[Seviraph]

yeah I suppose, lol that would've been a much easier reply than all those things you said earlier

yeah basically DEVcat has just made stuff overpowered again, and it lost balance cause people can use whatever they want from another class, and the fact that skill training became alot easier makes the matters worse

can someone remind me what exactly was the restriction on classes, other than life skill/Wizard wm cause I kinda lost track over time xD

damn ninja'd well this extreme may be better but they still need to make adjustments to it, at least that's what I think

[oddy231]

But at least this extreme is better than the old one.


In you're opinion.
They went from the extreme that was revolutionary to the extreme were they were just rolling over like dogs. All the things that were completely new and exiting got turned into a usual blan run-of-the-mill update because apparently no on likes change.

[Moppy]

In you're opinion.
They went from the extreme that was revolutionary to the extreme were they were just rolling over like dogs. All the things that were completely new and exiting got turned into a usual blan run-of-the-mill update because apparently no on likes change.

No one likes fast and large updates. They could slowly develop this class system overtime to the point that everyone will enjoy it. We can hope in the least.

[oddy231]

No one likes fast and large updates. They could slowly develop this class system overtime to the point that everyone will enjoy it. We can hope in the least.

But what would be the difference? If they released G11-G13 at once a ton of people would complain. But how is it any different from us getting to G13 in a year. That's something I don't understand about people, the slightest nuances can spend them off for no reason.

[Chockeh]

But what would be the difference? If they released G11-G13 at once a ton of people would complain. But how is it any different from us getting to G13 in a year. That's something I don't understand about people, the slightest nuances can spend them off for no reason.
People complain because they can't catch up with the times and scared that they might catch up to KR and have a complete update stop for a while.

[pataterose]

i saw no one complain when we got g4-g5-g6 all at once.

[Chockeh]

Maybe cause there wasn't much to do during that time.
There's no mainstream owo.

[pataterose]

2 new races with mainstream, alot of new skills and area, new enchants, equips, that way more than g11-g13 together :x

[Zid]

In you're opinion.
They went from the extreme that was revolutionary to the extreme were they were just rolling over like dogs. All the things that were completely new and exiting got turned into a usual blan run-of-the-mill update because apparently no on likes change.

Isn't that also your opinion?

It wasn't revolutionary in any way, by the way. MMORPGs that adopt the class system (which is the majority of them) uses skill restrictions too, almost exact with what the Mabinogi old class system was trying to do. The class system is as old as the creation of MMORPGs (or MUDs if you want to step that far).

Pre-G13 Mabinogi is the first MMORPG (out of many) I've played that doesn't use this system at all (even if ranking nothing but Magic skills consider you a Wizard).

[Chockeh]

Well to correct, it's more of a side quest for transformations :D.
Can't really complain about new items.
I don't think there were too much skills ( besides race specific).
And everyone is exploring the area due to the event :D.

[oddy231]

Isn't that also your opinion?

It wasn't revolutionary in any way, by the way. MMORPGs that adopt the class system (which is the majority of them) uses skill restrictions too, almost exact with what the Mabinogi old class system was trying to do. The class system is as old as the creation of MMORPGs (or MUDs if you want to step that far).

Pre-G13 Mabinogi is the first MMORPG (out of many) I've played that doesn't use this system at all (even if ranking nothing but Magic skills consider you a Wizard).
I didn't say it wasn't my opinion, nor did I say what it was revolutionary to. The class system has been done before, but it would be revolutionary to this game. I don't want to argue.


i saw no one complain when we got g4-g5-g6 all at once.

You didn't? I remember tons of complaints.


People complain because they can't catch up with the times and scared that they might catch up to KR and have a complete update stop for a while.

Would it matter? Because eventually we would catch up to them anyways. Releasing all of them now would make up for the time it takes for Korea to add new content, or something along those lines. But anyways releasing them now and having to wait six months for an update is the same as releasing them later, when you have more to catch up to and having to wait for content. Another nuance that flips people out.

[pataterose]

indeeds, i didn't, everyone i knew was happy with that and wished for mroe giant update to catch up with foreign server :o

[Zid]

I didn't say it wasn't my opinion, nor did I say what it was revolutionary to. The class system has been done before, but it would be revolutionary to this game. I don't want to argue.

You're still stating an opinion(s), despite what you say. But whatever you say. :gloom2:

[Chockeh]

Would it matter? Because eventually we would catch up to them anyways. Releasing all of them now would make up for the time it takes for Korea to add new content, or something along those lines. But anyways releasing them now and having to wait six months for an update is the same as releasing them later, when you have more to catch up to and having to wait for content. Another nuance that flips people out.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, so iunno.

[Seviraph]

races on their own is more content than G13

transformation quests are almost like G2 for them, and as you have seen they are somewhat linked to G9/G10 a huge continent and the beginning of flying mounts/ability to fly seems pretty significan to me
+ exploration quests sorta multiply the amount of AP you can get by at least 1/3 of what you get regularly is quite significant as well, without exploration AP I don't think some of us would've been able to rank some of our skills as quickly as we do now

people have abandoned their "hard earned" characters for races before as well (so what happens with all that money spent into their humans, that they had to abandon to train the other races)

races were a step towards classes as well as diversity

edit: DAMNIT BOB xD (yeah I'll still call you bob out of laziness, instead of calling you Kev)

[oddy231]

You're still stating an opinion(s), despite what you say. But whatever you say. :gloom2:
I wasn't trying to be mean, sorry. I just didn't want to get into another discussion were I say the same thing over and over and over and over. And yeah I know It's my opinion, I was restating it in a way that would make more sense.

[abc33kr]

hmm how come i don't understand your theory of restriction bringing more diversity?

it just don't make any sense at all to me.

maybe im just dumb and have to take a logic 101 class. Please wise gurus of mabi logics, how would restrictions bring more diversity to mabinogi?


As mabinogi grows, of course the chars will be OPed, but that is no excuse to take out the fundamental roots of mabinogi. The developers need to stop being lazy and develop actual creative ideas that mabinogi was once full of. If i wanted class system in mabinogi, i would rather play maple private server. hey at least there you can rebirth into other classes.

[Syrphid]

From what you have stated, it seemed like G13 skills were only available to hybrids.
"you don't want to or can't branch out the person that doesn't will always be stronger then you because now they have those extra skills to give them an edge."
pure people are able to rank those extra skills. nobody has an edge other anyone, all are equal.

Also from what you have stated, it seemed as if hybrids are stronger than pures and that a balancing was required to bring them equal.
"The old class system gave extra skills for the specialized person to rank so they don't have to leave their branch of combat to be on the same level as someone that has left their branch."
Explain to me in facts and logic how hybrids are stronger than meele pure when faced with the fact that
meele/range hybrid and meele pure have exactly same str (since skills give same stats to everyone). the range skills that the meele/range hybrid ranked will not affect the damage calculation as dex doesn't improve meele damage.


Also, if you want to be purely any class, save ur ap. As you will be able to rank those new skills coming out way before those hybrids out of ap trying to rank all the skills in the game.

When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.

I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.

[Aubog007]

When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.

I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.

Whatever gives me more Strength so my spins do more damage.
For i am. the Spin Master!


(Been Pure Melee since G1.)

[oddy231]

When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.

I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.

Exactly.
And it's not that restriction equals diversity. Restriction equals balance that equals diversity.

[abc33kr]

When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.

I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.

but what the class supporters are saying is that if there are classes, then pures will be equal to hybrid in power.
in that ciar adv boss example, a meele with 50 more dmg won't really change much.

what they need is not a class, but new strategy. i read your 3rd hand guide and learned to solo the ciar adv golems with pets. just pet smash the golems out of aggro. lure sprites with bolts (this was part of old class knight so u cant argue that i was using magic) and wm then smash. afterwards just smash the golem and charge wm. send pets to lower their hp if they r wming.

so them saying pure builds are weak aren't really valid.

i do agree that other type of combat people should be in mabi. But class isn't a solution to that, they just need strategies to use other skillsets effectively.

being a warrior is low costed and pretty effective, but with a correct strategy other skillsets can be better than warrior (eg. mana master build)
so basically, class won't solve the problem of everyone being a warrior, but dedication will.

[oddy231]

but what the class supporters are saying is that if there are classes, then pures will be equal to hybrid in power.
in that ciar adv boss example, a meele with 50 more dmg won't really change much.

what they need is not a class, but new strategy. i read your 3rd hand guide and learned to solo the ciar adv golems with pets. just pet smash the golems out of aggro. lure sprites with bolts (this was part of old class knight so u cant argue that i was using magic) and wm then smash. afterwards just smash the golem and charge wm. send pets to lower their hp if they r wming.

so them saying pure builds are weak aren't really valid.

i do agree that other type of combat people should be in mabi. But class isn't a solution to that, they just need strategies to use other skillsets effectively.

being a warrior is low costed and pretty effective, but with a correct strategy other skillsets can be better than warrior (eg. mana master build)
so basically, class won't solve the problem of everyone being a warrior, but dedication will.
It's not the stats that help. It's the skills. The skills aren't specific anymore so there is no longer anything special about specializing. Pure builds aren't weak but they aren't as strong as hybrids. In this game you're either a god who has everything or not. There's no betweenness, even if you want some. If you want to be as powerful as a hybrid you have to branch out. If two pure mages masters all magic and one decides to branch out, the other one has to even if they don't want to. Under the class system the person that doesn't branch out would have had those extra skills to keep them on the same level as the person that decided to branch out. The point is everyone doesn't want to or can master everything, But the people who can are mad because apparently that is no longer possible when it never was in the first place.

[abc33kr]

Exactly.
And it's not that restriction equals diversity. Restriction equals balance that equals diversity.

Balance and diversity does not have any relation.

Also I don't see why a distinction between hybrid and pure is required (I apologize that i used those terms as I needed to in order to be consistent with the thread). There are players that have r1 TH,FB,IS, and Blaze and considers themselves pure meele. Obviously, that is not "pure". Mabinogi is a game of being able to be anything you want.
Unlike other MMORPGS where only one class is required to hunt stuff. Mabinogi is built to benefit diverse in skills (COUGH COUGH PASSIVE DEFENSE COUGH and there are certain mobs where a skillset isn't rly effective: eg. meele vs. beetle wolf) so that is why hybrids seem to be better than pures and that does not require balance as you would need to flip mabinogi upside down to correct all those. However, you can still get past that obstruction with great strategies and decisions (eg. pet play). Just because it looks hard doesn't mean it is impossible.

Compared to other boring games, Mabinogi is a COMPLEX game. A good analogy would be eating a steak. Normally, most people would use fork and knife to eat the steak, but if you decide to be pure, you can eat the steak using only your fork and lift that 1 pound meat everytime you take a bite. It is still doable.

TL;DR, class=/=diversity and pure builds are hardmode and hybrid builds are easymode. Don't like how pures can't have same power as hybrid? Then go play a SIMPLE game, mabinogi is too difficult for you.

[Syrphid]

but what the class supporters are saying is that if there are classes, then pures will be equal to hybrid in power.
in that ciar adv boss example, a meele with 50 more dmg won't really change much.

what they need is not a class, but new strategy. i read your 3rd hand guide and learned to solo the ciar adv golems with pets. just pet smash the golems out of aggro. lure sprites with bolts (this was part of old class knight so u cant argue that i was using magic) and wm then smash. afterwards just smash the golem and charge wm. send pets to lower their hp if they r wming.

so them saying pure builds are weak aren't really valid.

i do agree that other type of combat people should be in mabi. But class isn't a solution to that, they just need strategies to use other skillsets effectively.

being a warrior is low costed and pretty effective, but with a correct strategy other skillsets can be better than warrior (eg. mana master build)
so basically, class won't solve the problem of everyone being a warrior, but dedication will.

I guess the idea of classes appeals to me. I like mabi's get-touched-and-die and kb system but the way it's set up leads to too much reliance on wm. A class system would add a lot of diversity to the game without ruining it. Seems like a good solution to me.

In the ciar adv example, warriors can pet smash the golems away, draw a sprite with 2x ice, swipe it, and then run behind to smash it toward the wall to smashmill, but that takes a lot of time, and the damage isn't very good (melee's appeal lies in its wm's aoe, after all). AR spam probably kills a lot faster. [it would be really cool if warriors had a slight dmg boost to encourage the more adventurous ones to charge in and swipemill all 4 mobs at once and brave the pd, seems to fit the warrior spirit right?]

If the progression is really warrior --> mana master, then at the beginning of the game everyone is a warrior, a year in we might have a few mm's, and by the 2nd year nearly everyone is now spamming thunder instead of wm. You don't really get diversity this way. Perhaps we could if they planned out some new strategies, but a soft class system that encourages specialization seems like a much fresher approach.

[abc33kr]

It seems queer that people want to be pure than branching out. Why so mesochistic? This is Mabinogi, you tried out this game because of the potentials and the freedom to rank any skills.

This game isn't designed to not branch out. Before, I gave you pures suggestions to enjoy the game as pures, but you chose to want a patch that ruins mabi.

When I first saw mabi and read their game intro, I saw the ability to rank any skill you want and be master of everything with diligence.
"Activities in Mabinogi are enabled through skills. A swordsman can learn the skills of a bowman, and bowmen can wield the magic of wizards! Anything is possible if you take the time to learn and train. Hard work and time are all you need to fulfill the requirements of each skill in order to master it."
They said anything was possible. Hard work and time are all I need, not a certain class.

All I want them is to keep their promise of freedom. IDC if they balance some stuff so that ppl r not OPed.

[Seviraph]

and you're not really accepting the fact that people "want the freedom to stay a pure" at the same time being able to match hybrids in combat

and people have got to stop using "pet strategies" as an excuse or anything in their explainations, we need to consider that this game could be played just fine without using nx at all, and pets are not part of that

also put into consideration that newbs don't have full access to all of Mabinogi, or the fact that noone is ever likely to reach endgame within a matter of months

there is diversity in balance because when one is stronger than another, the logical thing to do is to go towards the stronger

there are some people that like a challenge, but this new class system kinda takes away quite abit of that for those people

and being as strong as a pro could possibly make this community abit nicer, so that we don't have some egotistic elitists running around bragging about their achievements all the time (at some point in time you're strength is going to hit a deadend/ come to a stand still anyways)

[abc33kr]

I guess the idea of classes appeals to me. I like mabi's get-touched-and-die and kb system but the way it's set up leads to too much reliance on wm. A class system would add a lot of diversity to the game without ruining it. Seems like a good solution to me.

In the ciar adv example, warriors can pet smash the golems away, draw a sprite with 2x ice, swipe it, and then run behind to smash it toward the wall to smashmill, but that takes a lot of time, and the damage isn't very good (melee's appeal lies in its wm's aoe, after all). AR spam probably kills a lot faster. [it would be really cool if warriors had a slight dmg boost to encourage the more adventurous ones to charge in and swipemill all 4 mobs at once and brave the pd, seems to fit the warrior spirit right?]

If the progression is really warrior --> mana master, then at the beginning of the game everyone is a warrior, a year in we might have a few mm's, and by the 2nd year nearly everyone is now spamming thunder instead of wm. You don't really get diversity this way. Perhaps we could if they planned out some new strategies, but a soft class system that encourages specialization seems like a much fresher approach.

The thing is class doesn't seem to solve anything, if it is best to use wm till you have enough aps to become mm, then they will just become knight then go to wizard.

What will bring balance/diversity is if devcat actually make skills that are compare able with wm and can't argue, which is best. They could do something like *shudders wm nerf *nuuuuu.

However, what I also think is that people in NA are not as creative/dedicated as foreign servers. In NA, i barely see any IS-Blazers or real rangers (ones who have 300+ dmg). Those are actually good skills that can arguably beat windmill. Just that they take a bit more dedication and NA ppl aren't capable of that.

[oddy231]

Balance and diversity does not have any relation.

Also I don't see why a distinction between hybrid and pure is required (I apologize that i used those terms as I needed to in order to be consistent with the thread). There are players that have r1 TH,FB,IS, and Blaze and considers themselves pure meele. Obviously, that is not "pure". Mabinogi is a game of being able to be anything you want.
Unlike other MMORPGS where only one class is required to hunt stuff. Mabinogi is built to benefit diverse in skills (COUGH COUGH PASSIVE DEFENSE COUGH and there are certain mobs where a skillset isn't rly effective: eg. meele vs. beetle wolf) so that is why hybrids seem to be better than pures and that does not require balance as you would need to flip mabinogi upside down to correct all those. However, you can still get past that obstruction with great strategies and decisions (eg. pet play). Just because it looks hard doesn't mean it is impossible.

Compared to other boring games, Mabinogi is a COMPLEX game. A good analogy would be eating a steak. Normally, most people would use fork and knife to eat the steak, but if you decide to be pure, you can eat the steak using only your fork and lift that 1 pound meat everytime you take a bite. It is still doable.

TL;DR, class=/=diversity and pure builds are hardmode and hybrid builds are easymode. Don't like how pures can't have same power as hybrid? Then go play a SIMPLE game, mabinogi is too difficult for you.

I'm tired of people telling me to go play a different game. I quit when I found out that the class system didn't go through so don't tell me to quit, I already did. And don't act like I'm stupid just because I play the game differently from you.
Restrictions give people options and option give people diversity and diversity give balance, no longer is one way the strongest, all ways can be strong.
I wouldn't define people as pure by there skills, a pure person is someone who would have made those sacrifices to excel in the area they want to. Doesn't matter if you have Rank 1 in all combat skills, if you would have sacrificed them to become a alchemist then you're a pure alchemist. If not then you're a hybrid and should have stayed an adventurer.
And there is no reason you're giving that pures can't be equal to hybrids other than "This is Mabinogi". That's not a real reason, it's a game and It's content can change. If this class system had gone through, this whole thing would be reversed, I'd be the one telling you to quit and you'd be giving reasons in your defense as well. Just be glad that a ton of Mabinogi Korea players don't like the think things through and keep their minds closed.

[Syrphid]

The thing is class doesn't seem to solve anything, if it is best to use wm till you have enough aps to become mm, then they will just become knight then go to wizard.

I propose that class specialization make ranged, low-level magic, and high-level melee all viable choices. I was explaining how the presence of mm endgame build doesn't make the game any more diverse, an argument you advanced a few posts ago to counter my argument that everyone spins 24/7.

[abc33kr]

and you're not really accepting the fact that people "want the freedom to stay a pure" at the same time being able to match hybrids in combat

and people have got to stop using "pet strategies" as an excuse or anything in their explainations, we need to consider that this game could be played just fine without using nx at all, and pets are not part of that

also put into consideration that newbs don't have full access to all of Mabinogi, or the fact that noone is ever likely to reach endgame within a matter of months

there is diversity in balance because when one is stronger than another, the logical thing to do is to go towards the stronger

there are some people that like a challenge, but this new class system kinda takes away quite abit of that for those people

and being as strong as a pro could possibly make this community abit nicer, so that we don't have some egotistic elitists running around bragging about their achievements all the time (at some point in time you're strength is going to hit a deadend/ come to a stand still anyways)

you are not accepting the fact that those who want the freedom to pure build also have the freedom to play runescape or maplestory owo. rofl

the balance between pure and hybrid =/= diversity because pure is just the developing step of hybrid.

you class supporters think hybrid =/= diversity, but that is quite ironic as hybrid is the one that is logically related with diversity and pure is the one that is disassociated with diversity. With pure, there are only 4 types to choose from (warrior, mage, range, alchemist). With hybrid there are too many choices to list (meele/range, alchemy/mage, range/alchemy, meele/mage, etc).

I will repeat with more examples that MABINOGI IS FOR HYBRIDS.
You might not realize, but are certain things that will be almost impossible for a pure.

G10 zombies (range/mage X_X)
G11 Beeper (meele X_X)
G11 Uroboros (mage/maybe alchemist X_X)

but if they are hybrid...
G10 zombies (golem summoning :D)
G11 Beeper (Sand Burst :D)
G11 Uroboros (meh... nexon hates you, you still screwed without a strategy)

Thus, stop the QQ that hybrids r OPed. Referring back to my previous analogy, eat your steak with fork and knife you derp xP.

edit1



And there is no reason you're giving that pures can't be equal to hybrids other than "This is Mabinogi". That's not a real reason, it's a game and It's content can change. If this class system had gone through, this whole thing would be reversed, I'd be the one telling you to quit and you'd be giving reasons in your defense as well. Just be glad that a ton of Mabinogi Korea players don't like the think things through and keep their minds closed.
o rly? so you want all the passive defenses removed? you want raft removed? you want hot-air balloon removed? Just because there are classes in other games doesn't mean it is needed here. Mabinogi is pretty much a haven for those who are tired of same old boring gameplay.

[oddy231]

It seems queer that people want to be pure than branching out. Why so mesochistic? This is Mabinogi, you tried out this game because of the potentials and the freedom to rank any skills.

This game isn't designed to not branch out. Before, I gave you pures suggestions to enjoy the game as pures, but you chose to want a patch that ruins mabi.

When I first saw mabi and read their game intro, I saw the ability to rank any skill you want and be master of everything with diligence.
"Activities in Mabinogi are enabled through skills. A swordsman can learn the skills of a bowman, and bowmen can wield the magic of wizards! Anything is possible if you take the time to learn and train. Hard work and time are all you need to fulfill the requirements of each skill in order to master it."
They said anything was possible. Hard work and time are all I need, not a certain class.

All I want them is to keep their promise of freedom. IDC if they balance some stuff so that ppl r not OPed.
Not everyone is you. Not everyone plays for the same reason as you. Not everyone plays the same way as you. I only play for the combat mechanics, everything else, the stupid repair system, the blessing system, the enchant system, the skill system, and even some of the time the rebirth system I pretty much hate. But it's balanced with my love of the combat mechanics, that's why I play.
People against the class system don't seem to get that everyone doen't play as a human god that's mastered everything. If you want to keep you're whole "doing whatever a want" thing they you could have just stayed adventurer.

[Tatsigi]

The thing is class doesn't seem to solve anything, if it is best to use wm till you have enough aps to become mm, then they will just become knight then go to wizard.

What will bring balance/diversity is if devcat actually make skills that are compare able with wm and can't argue, which is best. They could do something like *shudders wm nerf *nuuuuu.

However, what I also think is that people in NA are not as creative/dedicated as foreign servers. In NA, i barely see any IS-Blazers or real rangers (ones who have 300+ dmg). Those are actually good skills that can arguably beat windmill. Just that they take a bit more dedication and NA ppl aren't capable of that.

Maybe people on YOUR server arent capable of that, but people on the tarlach server are. I for one havent equipped a sword or used WM for 7months. (yes i keep track) I use Thunder or IS+blaze and most archers that i party with hit 300 - 400 dmage and 3k crit magnums. So don't just lump up everyone into the same boat ur in.


I'm tired of people telling me to go play a different game. I quit when I found out that the class system didn't go through so don't tell me to quit, I already did. And don't act like I'm stupid just because I play the game differently from you.
Restrictions give people options and option give people diversity and diversity give balance, no longer is one way the strongest, all ways can be strong.
I wouldn't define people as pure by there skills, a pure person is someone who would have made those sacrifices to excel in the area they want to. Doesn't matter if you have Rank 1 in all combat skills, if you would have sacrificed them to become a alchemist then you're a pure alchemist. If not then you're a hybrid and should have stayed an adventurer.
And there is no reason you're giving that pures can't be equal to hybrids other than "This is Mabinogi". That's not a real reason, it's a game and It's content can change. If this class system had gone through, this whole thing would be reversed, I'd be the one telling you to quit and you'd be giving reasons in your defense as well. Just be glad that a ton of Mabinogi Korea players don't like the think things through and keep their minds closed.

^agreed, everyone that opposef this is a whining cry baby unable to accept a change that would have ultimately made the game better.


I guess the idea of classes appeals to me. I like mabi's get-touched-and-die and kb system but the way it's set up leads to too much reliance on wm. A class system would add a lot of diversity to the game without ruining it. Seems like a good solution to me.

In the ciar adv example, warriors can pet smash the golems away, draw a sprite with 2x ice, swipe it, and then run behind to smash it toward the wall to smashmill, but that takes a lot of time, and the damage isn't very good (melee's appeal lies in its wm's aoe, after all). AR spam probably kills a lot faster. [it would be really cool if warriors had a slight dmg boost to encourage the more adventurous ones to charge in and swipemill all 4 mobs at once and brave the pd, seems to fit the warrior spirit right?]

If the progression is really warrior --> mana master, then at the beginning of the game everyone is a warrior, a year in we might have a few mm's, and by the 2nd year nearly everyone is now spamming thunder instead of wm. You don't really get diversity this way. Perhaps we could if they planned out some new strategies, but a soft class system that encourages specialization seems like a much fresher approach.

I like this. Except not everyone goes warrior to mana master. Even when i started playing the game 2 1/2 years ago i was determined to not use range/melee unless it was an absolute requirement. Also not everyones end game is mana master, maybe for them its to master all range, barrier spikes, and dex giving skills

[Seviraph]

you are not accepting the fact that those who want the freedom to pure build also have the freedom to play runescape or maplestory owo. rofl

the balance between pure and hybrid =/= diversity because pure is just the developing step of hybrid.

you class supporters think hybrid =/= diversity, but that is quite ironic as hybrid is the one that is logically related with diversity and pure is the one that is disassociated with diversity. With pure, there are only 4 types to choose from (warrior, mage, range, alchemist). With hybrid there are too many choices to list (meele/range, alchemy/mage, range/alchemy, meele/mage, etc).

I will repeat with more examples that MABINOGI IS FOR HYBRIDS.
You might not realize, but are certain things that will be almost impossible for a pure.

G10 zombies (range/mage X_X)
G11 Beeper (meele X_X)
G11 Uroboros (mage/maybe alchemist X_X)

but if they are hybrid...
G10 zombies (golem summoning :D)
G11 Beeper (Sand Burst :D)
G11 Uroboros (meh... nexon hates you, you still screwed without a strategy)

Thus, stop the QQ that hybrids r OPed. Referring back to my previous analogy, eat your steak with fork and knife you derp xP.

so.. where have I mentioned hybrids being overpowered? I would just rather not repeat my dozen posts , obviously they have the freedom to choose MMOs yes, so they choose Mabi, the freedom is not strictly combat or skills

I only suggested to put more things into consideration rather than being biased as you have been all along "don't like it? stop playing" CONSIDER that there are more reasons for a person to play Mabinogi, the art style? the combat mechanics? unrestricted equipment (to more of a degree than other MMO), transformations? Bard/music scrolls?

what you've said completely ruined your argument, you say Mabinogi is about freedom yet, it's FOR HYBRIDS? not everyone will be going to every single dungeon known to man, not everyone fight, not everyone grind all day to finish training their skills, not everyone do Mainstream, not everyone care about the skills,

maybe you should put into consideration more things when you're debating or arguing whichever floats your boat I would rather this be more civilized without any insults thrown out there, and learn to accept that there are other perspectives other than your own, I came to this conclusion when you decided to start saying queer and derp, you seem mad, pissed, annoyed, irritated whichever you prefer

and with my freedom, I can eat my steak with a chopstick thank you very much

[Tatsigi]

Ha! A quote from the most pro mabi player i know.


Mabinogi has no limits on what skills your character can acquire. This, combined with the advertising campaign of Nexon's "fantasy life," has led many people to mistakenly believe that hybridization is the key to everything—that everyone should immediately gain as many skills as possible and rank most or all of them in order to be as "flexible" as possible and have the ability to run any dungeon they want to.

This way of thinking is entirely backward. Hybridization should occur later in your fantasy life, not right away. Instead, you should build yourself strong in one particular skill set, and use the immense power you have in that one area to quickly gain the AP and money you will need for the other skill sets. Purism is a means to an end. You won't stay a pure mage (or pure ranger or pure warrior) forever. You're using high ranks in a select few skills (and the high damage output that comes with those ranks) to more quickly expand your power base.

The opposition will immediately bring up "but then you have no flexibility, you can't do a lot of the dungeons that are available to you and you'll have no way to defeat certain monsters." Guess what? You don't actually need to do every dungeon available, nor do you need to be able to defeat every monster. You only need the skill set for the job you signed up for—becoming a powerful mage in the shortest time possible. You won't have to worry about most dungeons at all. The best dungeons for leveling, hands down, are Ciar Advanced and Rundal Normal Hardmode, and of the two, Ciar Advanced is preferable. With the skill build I've laid out here, you'll have no trouble grinding Ciar Advanced with a little practice under your belt.

Just remember that this guide is written for the "serious" individual. If you would prefer more immediate flexibility as opposed to an overall quick and powerful build that requires dedication of time and potential boredom, that's not a bad thing, but it is an inferior way to build a character overall.

From Trigger's guide To Magic

[Seviraph]

Ha! A quote from the most pro mabi player i know.



From Trigger's guide To Magic

:lol: :thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::2thumb: :awesome::lol:

[Syrphid]

you are not accepting the fact that those who want the freedom to pure build also have the freedom to play runescape or maplestory owo. rofl

the balance between pure and hybrid =/= diversity because pure is just the developing step of hybrid.

you class supporters think hybrid =/= diversity, but that is quite ironic as hybrid is the one that is logically related with diversity and pure is the one that is disassociated with diversity. With pure, there are only 4 types to choose from (warrior, mage, range, alchemist). With hybrid there are too many choices to list (meele/range, alchemy/mage, range/alchemy, meele/mage, etc).

I will repeat with more examples that MABINOGI IS FOR HYBRIDS.
You might not realize, but are certain things that will be almost impossible for a pure.

G10 zombies (range/mage X_X)
G11 Beeper (meele X_X)
G11 Uroboros (mage/maybe alchemist X_X)

but if they are hybrid...
G10 zombies (golem summoning :D)
G11 Beeper (Sand Burst :D)
G11 Uroboros (meh... nexon hates you, you still screwed without a strategy)

Thus, stop the QQ that hybrids r OPed. Referring back to my previous analogy, eat your steak with fork and knife you derp xP.

edit1


o rly? so you want all the passive defenses removed? you want raft removed? you want hot-air balloon removed? Just because there are classes in other games doesn't mean it is needed here. Mabinogi is pretty much a haven for those who are tired of same old boring gameplay.

abc33kr, you aren't king of mabi, you don't get to decide by yourself how mabi should and should not be. You argue that mabi should remain perfectly classless because that's how you envisioned it. You're only one person, not everyone shares or agrees with your vision.

Those examples go to show that you confuse pure builds will self-restriction, as if an archer could never pull out dual glads and spin. Perhaps their spins only do half damage, they'd still wipe zombies out.

Perhaps melee's AR and magnum are disabled, they can still chew away with normal ranged attack.


I like this. Except not everyone goes warrior to mana master. Even when i started playing the game 2 1/2 years ago i was determined to not use range/melee unless it was an absolute requirement. Also not everyones end game is mana master, maybe for them its to master all range, barrier spikes, and dex giving skills

Maybe that's a competitive build, I couldn't say for sure, but range's lack of a large aoe and weak multi aggro control doesn't make it very appealing.

[abc33kr]

Ha! A quote from the most pro mabi player i know.



From Trigger's guide To Magic

rofl you should have hid the 2nd paragraph.
what he said was that pure build is a developmental build and hybrid is what everyone eventually ends up with.

so let's put that into class context, you can't become hybrid anymore and everyone is stuck in the development stage without anything to develop. QQ for everyone.

just because you are still under development doesn't mean you should bring down hybrids to your level.

Here is a question that I want to ask that have been ignored and made me more and more confused about ur view:

WHY DO YOU THINK CURRENT MABINOGI SYSTEM IS FORCING HYBRID ON YOU? cuz its not.
At first you gave a vague answer that hybrid is stronger. Then we came to conclusion that hybrids can have upper hand at certain situations. Then I was annoyed at the fact that you were bawwing at how current system lacks diversity, which is quite ironic. Thus, I ranted that pures should leave mabi, but that was mistake on my part.
I'm pretty sure you ignored my suggestion of not being forced hybrid and staying pure (saving up ap so you can rank the skills of your pure when it comes out).

So please give a clear answer that won't create future confusion and argument that has continued for 31 pages.
I want to see your view except it is extremely confusing.

[Tatsigi]

rofl you should have hid the 2nd paragraph.
what he said was that pure build is a developmental build and hybrid is what everyone eventually ends up with.

so let's put that into class context, you can't become hybrid anymore and everyone is stuck in the development stage without anything to develop. QQ for everyone.

just because you are still under development doesn't mean you should bring down hybrids to your level.

Here is a question that I want to ask that have been ignored and made me more and more confused about ur view:

WHY DO YOU THINK CURRENT MABINOGI SYSTEM IS FORCING HYBRID ON YOU? cuz its not.
At first you gave a vague answer that hybrid is stronger. Then we came to conclusion that hybrids can have upper hand at certain situations. Then I was annoyed at the fact that you were bawwing at how current system lacks diversity, which is quite ironic. Thus, I ranted that pures should leave mabi, but that was mistake on my part.
I'm pretty sure you ignored my suggestion of not being forced hybrid and staying pure (saving up ap so you can rank the skills of your pure when it comes out).

So please give a clear answer that won't create future confusion and argument that has continued for 31 pages.
I want to see your view except it is extremely confusing.

First off, after you have mastered all the skills, you have an addiction. But thats not the main point. Thats why they made the adventurer class so people can use all the pre-g13 skills. Also my answer was pretty clear :/

[abc33kr]

First off, after you have mastered all the skills, you have an addiction. But thats not the main point. Thats why they made the adventurer class so people can use all the pre-g13 skills. Also my answer was pretty clear :/

The fact that adventurer class not being able to solve the class problem has been resolved a long time ago (here are some example, exclusion from parties due to less dmg and missing out on all future content; behind competition. That as well be my main reason for opposing classes.

sooo
WHY DO YOU THINK CURRENT MABINOGI SYSTEM IS FORCING HYBRID ON YOU?
You haven't answered on your post. Going back through all the pages and reading all your posts is not effective as your message could be interpreted differently.
I want a clear summarized answer that will end this time consuming argument.

[Tatsigi]

The fact that adventurer class not being able to solve the class problem has been resolved a long time ago (here are some example, exclusion from parties due to less dmg and missing out on all future content; behind competition. That as well be my main reason for opposing classes.

sooo
WHY DO YOU THINK CURRENT MABINOGI SYSTEM IS FORCING HYBRID ON YOU?
You haven't answered on your post. Going back through all the pages and reading all your posts is not effective as your message could be interpreted differently.
I want a clear summarized answer that will end this time consuming argument.

the adventurer/classless people do NOT deserve the new content. If they don't want to join a class then oh freakin well. The current system is forcing the new system on everyone because of hybrid>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pure which isnt fair at all. The old class system balanced that out and all you people who complained are.....nvm wont finish that. Moppy and Juno are reading this thread.

[abc33kr]

the adventurer/classless people do NOT deserve the new content. If they don't want to join a class then oh freakin well. The current system is forcing the new system on everyone because of hybrid>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pure which isnt fair at all. The old class system balanced that out and all you people who complained are.....nvm wont finish that. Moppy and Juno are reading this thread.

*doesn't see Mop on thread browser list.
does that mean he acquired elf hide?

but hybrids do same damage as pure.

[Tatsigi]

*doesn't see Mop on thread browser list.
does that mean he acquired elf hide?

no no, they check back every so often :o

[Zeo]

Hmm... so when people was reading my title in Mabinogi how I liked new Classes system better.

I explained to them it's because of no skill restrictions and that I don't want to be restricted, then they used..

"You already are restricted, based on your races" for their agruements. x:

[abc33kr]

xP ya i think races could be vaguely class ish.

zeo you do realize moon is his last name and sung joon is his first name.

[pataterose]

when i first started playing mabinogi (long time ago), i was like: "hell yeah, i can be a magical warrior" and i went to rank melee and magic together. that was probably a development error since it took em longer to get good damage as most people would have, but i really enjoyed that possibility. the irony is that now im almost entirely melee (using bolt left and right, sometime using a wand in rabbie adv).

i didn't like the old class system, cause it was forcing me to use a specific skill set (even if i could change it every week, it was still annoying), and if i was restarting playing with the new class system i would quit by the time i do g9. seriously, i would obtain skills i can't even use, when doing g10, the odds of me unable to do last boss (cause life drain was disabled for most class), and g11 needs for spark would drive me away quite fast.

all the go adventurer to stay hybrid is a bad arguments, as most people "specialize" in one are of combat, and sometimes uses the others if needs be. in my case its mainly melee, and to eb able to keep comptitive damge with my melee, i would have needed to go knight, thus gaining the needed damage, but sacrificing over 300mp, 35hp from lack of life drain, mana shield, and the ability to use skills i trained for a long time (it would be even worse for the korean/japanese/etc.. who has this game for 4+ years and who always played competitively)

also, if you really want to keep a "pure" build, you can always do a "final" rebirth wich consist of rebirthing at 10, getting the highest lvl possible, and then capping the stats you need to 999 using food.

[Kazuni]

Maybe people on YOUR server arent capable of that, but people on the tarlach server are. I for one havent equipped a sword or used WM for 7months. (yes i keep track) I use Thunder or IS+blaze and most archers that i party with hit 300 - 400 dmage and 3k crit magnums. So don't just lump up everyone into the same boat ur in.

^agreed, everyone that opposef this is a whining cry baby unable to accept a change that would have ultimately made the game better.

I like this. Except not everyone goes warrior to mana master. Even when i started playing the game 2 1/2 years ago i was determined to not use range/melee unless it was an absolute requirement. Also not everyones end game is mana master, maybe for them its to master all range, barrier spikes, and dex giving skills

Bold for irony.

Underline+bold for assuming/opinion/more irony

Which was disabled by the original class system unless you want to go against your previous arguments.

[Juno]

hybrids are people who finished a specialized build and moving on to another specialized build.

you can't possibly use both thunder while ARing.

so how exactly are hybrids stronger than specialized people?
the argument that class system balances the difference between pure and hybrids is flawed in the sense that mabinogi was balanced before g13.

I was gonna respond to this, but then later on you decided that hybrids are stronger than pures so...guess I won't bother.


hmm how come i don't understand your theory of restriction bringing more diversity?

it just don't make any sense at all to me.

maybe im just dumb and have to take a logic 101 class. Please wise gurus of mabi logics, how would restrictions bring more diversity to mabinogi?


As mabinogi grows, of course the chars will be OPed, but that is no excuse to take out the fundamental roots of mabinogi. The developers need to stop being lazy and develop actual creative ideas that mabinogi was once full of. If i wanted class system in mabinogi, i would rather play maple private server. hey at least there you can rebirth into other classes.

Optional restrictions.

Optional being the key word. You and those like-minded could continue about business as usual. Myself and others like me would choose a class and become on par in our area of expertise. It's not fair to say it's a class system like maple/WoW/etc. because it's entirely optional. In the end, the classes would have created several end-game builds rather than the current one and only.

I too enjoy mabinogi's classless atmosphere but I do tend to stick to one skillset. My giant is melee or alchemy, though not both at once. My elf is a mage and my human is a seamstress. This means that my giant and elf are hitting walls in their development due to maxing skills and my human has to go out of her way to get exp if she wants to lvl past 2.5. It would have been very good news if I could actually play the way I want to play without selling out now and then.


no no, they check back every so often :o

Very so often~


when i first started playing mabinogi (long time ago), i was like: "hell yeah, i can be a magical warrior" and i went to rank melee and magic together. that was probably a development error since it took em longer to get good damage as most people would have, but i really enjoyed that possibility. the irony is that now im almost entirely melee (using bolt left and right, sometime using a wand in rabbie adv).

i didn't like the old class system, cause it was forcing me to use a specific skill set (even if i could change it every week, it was still annoying), and if i was restarting playing with the new class system i would quit by the time i do g9. seriously, i would obtain skills i can't even use, when doing g10, the odds of me unable to do last boss (cause life drain was disabled for most class), and g11 needs for spark would drive me away quite fast.

all the go adventurer to stay hybrid is a bad arguments, as most people "specialize" in one are of combat, and sometimes uses the others if needs be. in my case its mainly melee, and to eb able to keep comptitive damge with my melee, i would have needed to go knight, thus gaining the needed damage, but sacrificing over 300mp, 35hp from lack of life drain, mana shield, and the ability to use skills i trained for a long time (it would be even worse for the korean/japanese/etc.. who has this game for 4+ years and who always played competitively)

also, if you really want to keep a "pure" build, you can always do a "final" rebirth wich consist of rebirthing at 10, getting the highest lvl possible, and then capping the stats you need to 999 using food.

You say forcing like choosing adventurer would result in the death of everyone you love~

Saying you'd have to go knight to stay competitive with your melee, while true, is sort of the point. Knights were supposed to have an edge in melee at the cost of the other things you listed. Overall, you'd still be competitive as a hybrid. If a pure build can't surpass a hybrid in its area of specialization then you have only one endgame class...which is neither diverse, fun or competitive. As an adventurer your melee would still be wonderfully sufficient especially when supplemented with your other skillsets.

[abc33kr]

As an adventurer your melee would still be wonderfully sufficient especially when supplemented with your other skillsets.

pfft. With what supplement? dex from range and int from magic?

[Seviraph]

pfft. With what supplement? dex from range and int from magic?

Again without thinking it through

Have you heard of DPS?
Dex also affects balance incase you have forgotten

[abc33kr]

Again without thinking it through

Have you heard of DPS?
[D]ex also affects balance incase you have forgotten

rofl at you coming up with desperate arguments.

by the time you have capped meele, balance should be 80% all the time.

and this isn't maple/cabal dex does not increase speed thus having no effect on dps


If a pure build can't surpass a hybrid in its area of specialization then you have only one endgame class...which is neither diverse, fun or competitive.
pfft, pure/hybrid =/= class. As I have pointed a valid point, pure=warrior, range, mage, and alchemist. While hybrids have way more combination than that.
The words "diverse, fun or competitive" are rather opinionated as mabinogi has been diverse, fun, or competitive without class for all its existence.

[Kaeporo]

With all skills capped, the class system is essentially the same as a title. Also, I was wrong about Crash Shot. OP skill is OP.

[Leefia]

so, no nerfs but we get the best part of the classes the extra stat boosts and masteries and easier skill training if we say were a certain class.

if so epic i totally approve of this update. then again i did before so gg devcat. o-o
I agree entirely, if they still keep the generalist "Adventurer" class, which it appears they are doing.

If nothing else, it allows me to temporarily specialize in a class to boost my skills training, and when those are maxed out, hopping to another class to do the same. Makes building an effective hybrid character much easier.

Too bad Windmill won't benefit from the training boost. :mad:

[IceBlade]

the adventurer/classless people do NOT deserve the new content. If they don't want to join a class then oh freakin well. The current system is forcing the new system on everyone because of hybrid>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pure which isnt fair at all. The old class system balanced that out and all you people who complained are.....nvm wont finish that. Moppy and Juno are reading this thread.

How can you justify denying anyone the new content?

And why shouldn't a hybrid be more powerful than a pure player? They invested allot more time, effort and most likely money into their character, why should they get no benefits for that?

The main problem with the old class system was that it was too restricting. Putting a large content restriction on you when you picked a class, which in all honestly wasn't fair to their older players who've got all the skills capped. And yes you could stay an adventure, but then you'd get restricted on the new content.

I think a good midway would have been to keep the masteries class locked. So a Wizard would do more magic damage than a Knight and a Knight would still do more melee damage.

[Cide]

gosh, all these pure players qqing all over the place.. i'm a pure archer and i approve of this switch. E_______E a hybrid that has invested the ap to branch into multiple skillsets will be more versatile than a pure, no matter how you cut it, and taking that versatility away will take away the best aspect of mabinogi. :I half the reason i love it so much is the lack of rigid class system. if i wanted a class system, i'd go play wow.

[Syrphid]

gosh, all these pure players qqing all over the place.. i'm a pure archer and i approve of this switch. E_______E a hybrid that has invested the ap to branch into multiple skillsets will be more versatile than a pure, no matter how you cut it, and taking that versatility away will take away the best aspect of mabinogi. :I half the reason i love it so much is the lack of rigid class system. if i wanted a class system, i'd go play wow.

Optional specialization does not force you to lose versatility, it merely gives you the option to do so.


How can you justify denying anyone the new content?

And why shouldn't a hybrid be more powerful than a pure player? They invested allot more time, effort and most likely money into their character, why should they get no benefits for that?

The main problem with the old class system was that it was too restricting. Putting a large content restriction on you when you picked a class, which in all honestly wasn't fair to their older players who've got all the skills capped. And yes you could stay an adventure, but then you'd get restricted on the new content.

I think a good midway would have been to keep the masteries class locked. So a Wizard would do more magic damage than a Knight and a Knight would still do more melee damage.

No one is being denied new content, unless you consider giving giants stomp denying humans and elves new content. Optional specialization is open to all.


pfft. With what supplement? dex from range and int from magic?

Supplement skill sets as in range and magic that aren't penalized, because they do come in handy the 10% of the time you aren't spamming wm.

[abc33kr]

Supplement skill sets as in range and magic that aren't penalized, because they do come in handy the 10% of the time you aren't spamming wm.

so does that mean i can switch to bow in middle of wm animation and start shooting arrows?
or does that mean i can switch from wand to swords without a heavy penalty?

hybrids aren't not much different from pures. the distinctions are what you imagine in your head.

[Syrphid]

so does that mean i can switch to bow in middle of wm animation and start shooting arrows?
or does that mean i can switch from wand to swords without a heavy penalty?

hybrids aren't not much different from pures. the distinctions are what you imagine in your head.

In that example Juno and I were discussing the future not the present.

[Tatsigi]

How can you justify denying anyone the new content?

And why shouldn't a hybrid be more powerful than a pure player? They invested allot more time, effort and most likely money into their character, why should they get no benefits for that?

The main problem with the old class system was that it was too restricting. Putting a large content restriction on you when you picked a class, which in all honestly wasn't fair to their older players who've got all the skills capped. And yes you could stay an adventure, but then you'd get restricted on the new content.

I think a good midway would have been to keep the masteries class locked. So a Wizard would do more magic damage than a Knight and a Knight would still do more melee damage.

Its totally fair to restrict all the new content from adventurers/classless. Why should they already have ALL the pre-13 skills and get more. Its either that or give then all the skills and let them use them at 50% power. Someone who spends points in everything should never be good as a pure. Thats like saying someone who spent there whole life playing soccer isnt as valuable as someone who played soccer and basketball their whole life and the college should choose the lather.

Everyone who agrees with the new update is lazy and just wants to be OP and play mabi on easy mode.

[ＣＩＲＮＯ]

Like I've said, give the pures a reasonable buff and debuff.

Since they would want to go pure, then give them a reason to.




How ever, this does not mean you should break what's not broken. Leave the hybrids alone, just give us our rainbow or chocolate rice, or perhaps nuts and almonds to go along with our Chocolate/ Strawberry/ Mint/ Neopolitan/ <Insert your flavor here> Ice cream.





To all those that have missed my proposed change, you can find it on page 23 (http://mabination.com/mabinogi/mabinogi-talk/6242-g13-grievances-addressed-23.html)

[abc33kr]

In that example Juno and I were discussing the future not the present.
o.e so in the future you can use shoot mobs with AR while charging thunder?
if that is the case, all you pures can have all the buffs u want xPPP


Thats like saying someone who spent there whole life playing soccer isnt as valuable as someone who played soccer and basketball their whole life and the college should choose the lather.
cough its human nature that people wants a person who can do everything. This is the reason why college want students who have a good SAT/ACT/GPA, with good community service hours, good at sport, music, and actively participate a club.


Everyone who agrees with the new update is lazy and just wants to be OP and play mabi on easy mode.
cough generalization/irony.
do you think it is easy to learn a new form of fighting after a player has been using only one type for a year? a Meele pure who branched to range have to learn from scratch about zero shot, sog, etc. Pures are the ones who are lazy and decide not to learn new things to improve themselves.

Also Pures can overpower hybrids. Just max out ur build and foodnogi till 999stats. Although it takes work, it does work and not doing it would seem lazy.

Like I've said, give the pures a reasonable buff and debuff.

Since they would want to go pure, then give them a reason to.




How ever, this does not mean you should break what's not broken. Leave the hybrids alone, just give us our rainbow or chocolate rice, or perhaps nuts and almonds to go along with our Chocolate/ Strawberry/ Mint/ Neopolitan/ <Insert your flavor here> Ice cream.





To all those that have missed my proposed change, you can find it on page 23 (http://mabination.com/mabinogi/mabinogi-talk/6242-g13-grievances-addressed-23.html)

ah this seems more neutral toned. not like omg haxor hybridz r OPwed.

[Tatsigi]

cough generalization/irony.
do you think it is easy to learn a new form of fighting after a player has been using only one type for a year? a Meele pure who branched to range have to learn from scratch about zero shot, sog, etc. Pures are the ones who are lazy and decide not to learn new things to improve themselves.

As if zero shotting, SoG is so hard. Hybrids are the lazy one instead of ranking a high ranked skill such as thunder for mages to kill monsters with rank 1 - 2 mana deflector. Hybrids would rather jsut rank a whole new skills giving them a large but mediocre skill set.

[Juno]

pfft. With what supplement? dex from range and int from magic?

Other skills, actually. Charge and windmill start a lot of combos that would only be available to the hybrid class for example.


pfft, pure/hybrid =/= class. As I have pointed a valid point, pure=warrior, range, mage, and alchemist. While hybrids have way more combination than that.
The words "diverse, fun or competitive" are rather opinionated as mabinogi has been diverse, fun, or competitive without class for all its existence.

I don't understand your point here. No one was saying that hybrids have less combinations or that pure wasn't warrior, range, etc.


gosh, all these pure players qqing all over the place.. i'm a pure archer and i approve of this switch. E_______E a hybrid that has invested the ap to branch into multiple skillsets will be more versatile than a pure, no matter how you cut it, and taking that versatility away will take away the best aspect of mabinogi. :I half the reason i love it so much is the lack of rigid class system. if i wanted a class system, i'd go play wow.

It wasn't being taken away. Also the 'class' system was nothing like WoW or any other mmo. Feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point though.

[Sora]

What I see is Nexon throwing a bunch of useless skills to keep us busy, way to slowly make a unique game called Mabinogi turn into WoW, just great.

Sword Mastery? Axe Mastery? I know they are part of that certain class but god dammit, I'm disliking this slowly more and more :/

[Tatsigi]

What I see is Nexon throwing a bunch of useless skills to keep us busy, way to slowly make a unique game called Mabinogi turn into WoW, just great.

Sword Mastery? Axe Mastery? I know they are part of that certain class but god dammit, I'm disliking this slowly more and more :/

So you just want us to keeep the same old skills :/

[Sora]

So you just want us to keeep the same old skills :/

Nope, I want them to put there time into making more quests, shadow missions, more storyline, something that will make new and current players enjoy the game better, not adding skills that will make players that have everything capped come back for a month to cap everything over again. I like the current system that there is, it is enjoyable, and different from other MMO's. Why take time to add something in the game that most people play because of no-class restriction? Instead, I'd rather see them come up with something INTERESTING to do, and fun, not keep leveling up, and acquire other skills. I mean, I enjoy new skills, and what not, but I feel like Nexon has lost the grip and adding more things to do, what I said in my first sentence.

I don't hate the new system, I'm not fond of Nexon's use of time :<

Edit: Anyway, I hope it will be more fun, back to Exploration and G9 for me..

[Juno]

I think it would be fun and interesting if melee got alternatives to windmill.

[Taliya]

B>Final Smash for giants. <.<;

[Zid]

Nope, I want them to put there time into making more quests, shadow missions, more storyline, something that will make new and current players enjoy the game better, not adding skills that will make players that have everything capped come back for a month to cap everything over again. I like the current system that there is, it is enjoyable, and different from other MMO's. Why take time to add something in the game that most people play because of no-class restriction? Instead, I'd rather see them come up with something INTERESTING to do, and fun, not keep leveling up, and acquire other skills. I mean, I enjoy new skills, and what not, but I feel like Nexon has lost the grip and adding more things to do, what I said in my first sentence.

I don't hate the new system, I'm not fond of Nexon's use of time :<

Edit: Anyway, I hope it will be more fun, back to Exploration and G9 for me..

^This.

I actually saw the whole class system (old and revised) as useless and unnecessary too. To me, the class system was not the answer to "freshen up" Mabinogi.

Moot point, but both sides of this class system argument are subjective. No right or wrong sides here as long as your opinions and emotions get mixed in.

[Tatsigi]

Nope, I want them to put there time into making more quests, shadow missions, more storyline, something that will make new and current players enjoy the game better, not adding skills that will make players that have everything capped come back for a month to cap everything over again. I like the current system that there is, it is enjoyable, and different from other MMO's. Why take time to add something in the game that most people play because of no-class restriction? Instead, I'd rather see them come up with something INTERESTING to do, and fun, not keep leveling up, and acquire other skills. I mean, I enjoy new skills, and what not, but I feel like Nexon has lost the grip and adding more things to do, what I said in my first sentence.

I don't hate the new system, I'm not fond of Nexon's use of time :<

Edit: Anyway, I hope it will be more fun, back to Exploration and G9 for me..

Sigh, i admit u have a point. I can't remember the last time i had a actual quest that wasnt a shadow mission or mainstream.

[Juno]

^This.

I actually saw the whole class system (old and revised) as useless and unnecessary too. To me, the class system was not the answer to "freshen up" Mabinogi.

Moot point, but both sides of this class system argument are subjective. No right or wrong sides here as long as your opinions and emotions get mixed in.

While I also want more content in general (and they've promised it) the class system would have been a fresh breath for anyone sporting a pure build. For people who wouldn't benefit from it they also released all of g13 and a new area. It wasn't the answer by itself, but it would have been a big help...for some of us.

[Zeo]

Hmm.. to the people who said that hybrid people were lazy, may I ask how exactly are they lazy?

Edit: And geeeeez... so much agruements, devCAT should just remove the new skills, and Classes from G13.

[Hiccup]

As if zero shotting, SoG is so hard. Hybrids are the lazy one instead of ranking a high ranked skill such as thunder for mages to kill monsters with rank 1 - 2 mana deflector. Hybrids would rather jsut rank a whole new skills giving them a large but mediocre skill set.

Lolwut? Hybrids are lazy for ranking 1 skill set? You have it backwards my friend. Most decent hybrids are well into 2xxx and have ranked plenty of skills to high levels. And that makes them lazy? If anything hybrids have to work 2x as hard as pures because unlike you guys who can dish out decent damage at low-mid end gameplay, we work our way up to do good damage at mid-high end gameplay.

[Seviraph]

y'know what, this argument's becoming really pointless

I haven't tried to force an opinion on anyone, I was mostly pointing things out, but I get "mocked/laughed at" for it (also I wasn't on my computer so I just typed a short few sentences and left it)

I've already accepted this "class system" I'm just abit disappointed because there could have been better adjustments than what DEVcat has chosen

and honestly elitists make the community far less appealing

and as I mentioned earlier, at one point everyone will be the same, stats will make so little difference that you'll never notice it

pures are a developmental build, with the current class system, they will be "forced" not literally but eventually, because there would be nothing else to rank, in that way everyone has been forced to be a hybrid

and everyone is generalizing really, we can't argue with anything about "hybrids/pures" because not every player will go the same path, some probably don't even do combat

some start off as life skillers


so as an attempt to calm this down abit, because obviously abc33kr your attitude's become hostile (if I seemed to have been the same to you with my attitude it would only be because you started being that way)

so let us at least refresh ourselves, and say what our stand is (what we're trying to get across)
to make things less confusing because ._. I mean who would want to look back on those posts

I've mentioned in my earlier posts that I mostly wished they had kept some equipment limitations for the "class system" that way they can have some kind of distinction

that is things such as Hailstorm should be a class restricted skill (thus equipment can be a less restricting form of class restriction) because we already DO have equipment restrictions (Race/Age) and sometimes what guild (Guild Robe) and things like the Dan robes

and.. actually that might've been it

oh and the idea that classes can't rank/train those "restricted skills" but can still use them, would still leave quite abit of freedom compared to the older system

but yeah

abc33kr, I'll be the better man and step down, I can't even remember the main reason I started "arguing" which I don't really think it was arguing but rather pointing things out like I said

I'll have to go back to see about that, and yeah if I left anything out I'll address it in my next post (or edit)


edit: oh right, yeah um, everyone's arguments seem to involve the polar opposites/extremes "newb - pro" or "beginning - endgame" I would've liked it if your arguments weren't so again, hostile and biased because you haven't considered or at least, if you did you haven't shown any signs that you have ever considered that not everyone's playstyle is the same, and because it is Mabinogi, we have that freedom, (I have bad memory so I can't remember everything of why the old class system would've made everyone complain) Trigger has mentioned that not everyone will do every dungeon that there is, everyone does what works for them so we can't necessarily put that into an argument anymore because you're generalizing that everyone will run into that situation

[Hazeri]

I find fun that some of those against class system are now essentially calling those who liked the system crybabies because now that they ruined a concept that some of us liked, we're starting to adress this issue. Yet, the ones who caused that change were them with ther massive crying "BAAAAAWW I NO LIKE CHANGE" "BAAAAAWWWW I CAN'T HAVE EVERYTHING" baawww bawwww... Hypocrites much?

We'll see how it goes now, like i said earlier, Change may come on another gen. This one has become another bunch of shinny skils for everyone to use and yadda yadda, more of the same. Something that piqued my interest though, and maybe someone who can read korean may clarify this... Earlier today I recalled reading something via google translate, about a new sword that seems to be an special limited sword (as in limited/rare/not everyone will get it), could one fo you clarify this? I read it on one of gameabout's interviews~

And one more thing, drop the "MABI'S BECOMING WOW, OH NOES QQ" Argument. Unles you've played WoW and now how the system works in there you can't compare both systems. And if you have and still are comparing them I have just one question for you, did you made it past level 1/past the "tutorial" zone?

[abc33kr]

I find fun that some of those against class system are now essentially calling those who liked the system crybabies because now that they ruined a concept that some of us liked, we're starting to adress this issue. Yet, the ones who caused that change were them with ther massive crying "BAAAAAWW I NO LIKE CHANGE" "BAAAAAWWWW I CAN'T HAVE EVERYTHING" baawww bawwww... Hypocrites much?

We'll see how it goes now, like i said earlier, Change may come on another gen. This one has become another bunch of shinny skils for everyone to use and yadda yadda, more of the same. Something that piqued my interest though, and maybe someone who can read korean may clarify this... Earlier today I recalled reading something via google translate, about a new sword that seems to be an special limited sword (as in limited/rare/not everyone will get it), could one fo you clarify this? I read it on one of gameabout's interviews~

And one more thing, drop the "MABI'S BECOMING WOW, OH NOES QQ" Argument. Unles you've played WoW and now how the system works in there you can't compare both systems. And if you have and still are comparing them I have just one question for you, did you made it past level 1/past the "tutorial" zone?

Ah that is the flaming sword in avon.
It works sort of like seal breaker title. Maybe one sword per server, but I heard there will be more (they weren't so specific so I'm guessing either more flame sword of avon or more unique items in other places like how there isn't only one seal stone in mabi.

[Hazeri]

Ah that is the flaming sword in avon.
It works sort of like seal breaker title. Maybe one sword per server, but I heard there will be more (they weren't so specific so I'm guessing either more flame sword of avon or more unique items in other places like how there isn't only one seal stone in mabi.

Oh, thought that was there for storyline purpouses. Thanks for the tip though~

[sakraycore]

Yea I agree G13 is really pointless, they should just scrap it altogether and just add in more content for the base game where players old and new alike can enjoy.

[Leefia]

Looks like all that Devcat is doing is just adding more stuff to grind on. Like others have said, I'd much rather see new quests aside from the mainstream and SM stuff. There is a tiny handful of non-mainstream quests, but they're all pretty basic, and are all role-playing quests so you don't even get to play them as yourself. I'd also be happier if they'd devote their time on fixing the bugs in the game, and improving the balance; instead of dumping in a bunch of overpowered new skills that replace the tactical aspect of combat with OMG!!!1HKO!!!

[Kazuni]

Its totally fair to restrict all the new content from adventurers/classless. Why should they already have ALL the pre-13 skills and get more. Its either that or give then all the skills and let them use them at 50% power. Someone who spends points in everything should never be good as a pure. Thats like saying someone who spent there whole life playing soccer isnt as valuable as someone who played soccer and basketball their whole life and the college should choose the lather.
Everyone who agrees with the new update is lazy and just wants to be OP and play mabi on easy mode.

Why should they have preG13 skills and new content? Because they worked for it. Because they traded their time, effort, and money for those maxed tabs and high stats. You’re saying someone who maxed out both melee and magic should be weaker than one who had just finished melee? No. They put more work into their character, so obviously they’re going to get more in return.
Also, I think you should stop generalizing and calling everyone lazy and whiny as it provokes unnecessary argument and it doesn’t showcase you in the best light.



As if zero shotting, SoG is so hard. Hybrids are the lazy one instead of ranking a high ranked skill such as thunder for mages to kill monsters with rank 1 - 2 mana deflector. Hybrids would rather jsut rank a whole new skills giving them a large but mediocre skill set.

I don’t think you understand the concept of hybrid. Hybrid means to have skills in all tabs, but it doesn’t mean that the tabs aren’t maxed out or they don’t have rank 1s in there. A hybrid could well have r1 windmill, smash, crit, combat, etc, and also all adv magic and bolts at a high rank. You can’t call that easy. Yes, they will have a large skill set, but in no way can you call it mediocre.

[Zeo]

Mmm... Kazuni got some very good points there.

Plus, that doesn't really make senses to me, for devCAT to release the Classes system this late too.

[Justified]

Hybrids shouldn't be weaker, but there should be a limit to how powerful/diverse a person can get.
Keyword : Balance
How many other MMOs allow you to get to the top exclusively with solo play? If I wanted to play solo I'd go get a console game, the internetz is fun with other people.

My question is, whether or not you liked the previous class system, what's the point in providing this new one if all there is are stat boosts? The game just gets even easier than it is with our infinitely hybridized and powerful characters. Now we're getting stat boosts to kill any hope at party play and remove any small aspect of strategy that Windmill spam requires by giving us OHKO everything?

The class system was a step forward for game development. Whether or not you liked the idea of being restricted, you should at least recognize that it opened up doors for more diverse characters (instead of everybody with r1 Windmill r1 Refine etc, spamming Windmill then AR-spamming Lightning Sprites) and some new gameplay strategies, perhaps involving actual teamwork. devCAT turned their back on that, just because a few protests rang out.

They're giving you your cake and letting you eat it. Though as far as game development goes, putting aside what you WANT as one selfish player (hey it's only natural, don't take this as an insult), can you say there were no merits to having these classes introduced?

[Taliya]

My thoughts exactly. I felt that way about the update even before they introduced the possibility of classes.

[Iyasenu]

Ah the class skill training bonuses sound nice to have.
Train up wm as a knight, rb into a mage and do some enchanting.
Alchemist for synth and mastery and wall xD

Still makes me wish there was a life skill class for helping train things like weaving and such :p


I also wish PTJ were more worth it for exp than just training mats.

[MikeHo]

Blah read alot of the pages but my eyes are starting to burn.

I didnt like the skill restrictions but Well what i think is i kinda wish there was some small restriction. Even if it was as simple as the class you get like if you were a Knight gets the buffs ect... and magic and archer gets like a 10% reduction or something like that.

I dont like how they are making skill training easier. I mean it seems like they keep dumbing down games lately. What happen to the good old grinding. I mean there has to be some amount of effort. Making things easy are just making people lazy in general.

[Kaeporo]

Blah read alot of the pages but my eyes are starting to burn.

I didnt like the skill restrictions but Well what i think is i kinda wish there was some small restriction. Even if it was as simple as the class you get like if you were a Knight gets the buffs ect... and magic and archer gets like a 10% reduction or something like that.

I dont like how they are making skill training easier. I mean it seems like they keep dumbing down games lately. What happen to the good old grinding. I mean there has to be some amount of effort. Making things easy are just making people lazy in general.

They don't want to alienate new players. If nubs hop on Mabinogi and everyone is 1000+ (like on Mabi KR) then they won't have anyone to run Ciar basic with. Unhappy nubs = dying online population. This gives them a chance at catching up.

Not to mention that AP is still a massive grind.

[thestick]

Is 2X skill EXP also effect maximum skill points? ex. If a skill training requirement calls for 50 points, can you fully train it and get the 100 points to rank up?

[Juno]

Is 2X skill EXP also effect maximum skill points? ex. If a skill training requirement calls for 50 points, can you fully train it and get the 100 points to rank up?

No.