Mega Mosque near ground zero?

[paladin]

If you want to read a article on it heres the link A 'mega mosque' near Ground Zero? - The Week (http://theweek.com/article/index/203439/a-mega-mosque-near-ground-zero)
Basicly a group of muslims want to build a massive mosque within 2 blocks of ground zero(9/11)
Being that a mosque is the reglion of the people responsible for 9/11 it basically for many feels like an insult to the 3k people who died due to the 9/11 terriost attacks.

Some people say its the right of the muslims to build there due to americas religious freedom and stuff and it will help foster tolerance and stuff
Others say even with the freedoms it is still very bad gesture to place a mosque near such a place

Tl:dr for the lazy
Muslims want to build great mosque near ground zero people protesting.

What do you people think
I feel although they have the right to build there. They should reconsider it very insensitive toward the people with famly who died there

[Chillax]

First of all, are there mosques in the area where Muslims can practice their religion? If not, it would be stupid to disallow it to be built just because the terrorists were Muslim.

[mewball]

First of all, are there mosques in the area where Muslims can practice their religion? If not, it would be stupid to disallow it to be built just because the terrorists were Muslim.

There are. Many of them selling stuff surrounding the area at least.

[paladin]

First of all, are there mosques in the area where Muslims can practice their religion? If not, it would be stupid to disallow it to be built just because the terrorists were Muslim.

Chances with the location of ground zero more then likey

[Time]

...Okay, heres my opinion. Its not just a mosque, its also a community center
These are a few of the many ways conservative pundits have referred to plans by a Muslim group to construct a 13-story, $100 million community center that will include a swimming pool, an auditorium, an art exhibit, bookstores, restaurants and a mosque three blocks from Ground Zero. Source (The Daily Athenaeum - Outrage over proposed NYC Muslim community center troubling (http://www.thedaonline.com/opinion/outrage-over-proposed-nyc-muslim-community-center-troubling-1.1502117)), and I have also heard, and am 99% positive, that since the actual religious part would have to contain a copy of the Qur'an it would have to be located at the top of the building, due to the fact that no one is allowed to be above where it is kept.

And also, how is it offensive? Do people really think no Muslims worked there and were killed in 9/11? Its not like EVERY Muslim caused 9/11, but if were going to group people by things certain people like them did in the past, lets not trust the Germans, or Christians, or for Americans, The British!

AND PLUS, theres a mosque four blocks away anyway...

The truth is, there shouldnt be a problem with it, America was founded with Religious freedom, and I cant really believe the stupidity of some of my fellow Americans, those Muslims didnt cause 9/11.


Edit: I kinda wanted to argue with someone, so anyone on the other side?

[Osayidan]

As much as I hate religion this would just show that just because the terrorists (which I don't believe there were any anyways but that's a different story) were muslim, not every muslim is a bad person.

There's religious terrorists in ireland and other parts of the world too, should they not be allowed to build places of worship at certain places?

[paladin]

...Okay, heres my opinion. Its not just a mosque, its also a community center , and I have also heard, and am 99% positive, that since the actual religious part would have to contain a copy of the Qur'an it would have to be located at the top of the building, due to the fact that no one is allowed to be above where it is kept.

And also, how is it offensive? Do people really think no Muslims worked there and were killed in 9/11? Its not like EVERY Muslim caused 9/11, but if were going to group people by things certain people like them did in the past, lets not trust the Germans, or Christians, or for Americans, The British!

AND PLUS, theres a mosque four blocks away anyway...

The truth is, there shouldnt be a problem with it, America was founded with Religious freedom, and I cant really believe the stupidity of some of my fellow Americans, those Muslims didnt cause 9/11.


Edit: I kinda wanted to argue with someone, so anyone on the other side?

Makes me question why they need another
The community center part am all for

[Science]

People shouldn't judge a complete group just by the extremists also associated with that group. I honestly wouldn't care if they did or didn't build a mosque there. Not like they're recruiting terrorists or something >>

[Lie]

By American rights, they are all completely free to build a mosque there. If people get offended by it, it's a sad thing, because they won't move away from their past and it interferes with people that in no way was part of it all (at least, we all hope they aren't).

Letting your emotions deny people who are unrelated to your past (other than just being Muslim) isn't justified in that case.

On a related note, why build another mosque when there's one 4 blocks away? Plus, isn't there a lot of public community centers in that area anyway? Finally, why choose to build a mosque near an area where you definitely know what you're doing is bound to stir people's emotions and media attention, no matter how right you are?

I wouldn't be surprised if people would terrorize that mosque later on after it's built.

[wolfram]

...Okay, heres my opinion. Its not just a mosque, its also a community center , and I have also heard, and am 99% positive, that since the actual religious part would have to contain a copy of the Qur'an it would have to be located at the top of the building, due to the fact that no one is allowed to be above where it is kept.

And also, how is it offensive? Do people really think no Muslims worked there and were killed in 9/11? Its not like EVERY Muslim caused 9/11, but if were going to group people by things certain people like them did in the past, lets not trust the Germans, or Christians, or for Americans, The British!

AND PLUS, theres a mosque four blocks away anyway...

The truth is, there shouldnt be a problem with it, America was founded with Religious freedom, and I cant really believe the stupidity of some of my fellow Americans, those Muslims didnt cause 9/11.


Edit: I kinda wanted to argue with someone, so anyone on the other side?

Why is that a Christian Church that was destroyed from the events of 9/11 not allowed to rebuild? While at the same time, the Islamic Mosque is green lighted. The Port Authority has given them run around ever since they ask about rebuilding their church in the exact same place it once stood.

We should all respect freedom to worship, but it should be extended to all religions. Islam shouldn't be given the right to build while Christianity is ignored.
Freedom of Religion is meant for all, not just the minorities.

[Magenera]

Islam is not a minority religion. I think it is the second largest religion,and is the fastest growing religion to boot.

[wolfram]

Islam is not a minority religion. I think it is the second largest religion,and is the fastest growing religion to boot.

The consider themselves a minority religion.

[Osayidan]

AND PLUS, theres a mosque four blocks away anyway...


But it's okay for churches to be blocks apart.

[Intex]

The mosque is going to go over an old Burlington Coat factory.
I don't think the mosque is even in the "hollow ground" area.
Even a reporter(?) on Fox and Friends supported the building of the mosque.

[Time]

But it's okay for churches to be blocks apart.

Uh, please tell me your not being sarcastic and disprove of that part of my post...That was meant to say that its not like its a huge deal, theres one 4 blocks away anyway....And...People saying why do they need another one anyway? I dont know like, the exact locations, but if ones four blocks away, and the others 3, thats 7 blocks....

But...Why is that a big deal? It shouldnt be a problem that they are building it anyway, I mean, unless your views are clouded by hatred, and you are a judgmental fool....So the only problem with it is that theres another one 7 blocks away...Um....So? Thats 7 blocks, how many of you go to Starbucks?

[Osayidan]

People are using the 4 blocks away story as an argument against it. I see churches closer together than that. There's even a place here with churches across the street from each other. I'm saying it makes no sense to use that as an argument unless people are hypocrites saying it's not okay for a mosque but fine for churches.

[Andy-Buddy]

Uhh..

I just read this.

3 Reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" Debate Makes No Sense | Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/)

[Intex]

Q: Why are people are opposed to this mosque?
A: It's a mosque.

These are the same people who don't like the thought of building more mosques anywhere in America :T

[wolfram]

Q: Why are people are opposed to this mosque?
A: It's a mosque.

These are the same people who don't like the thought of building more mosques anywhere in America :T

Its not that we're oppose to mosque building. What we're asking is for them to show consideration to the victims and family of people who lost their lives on 9/11 to not build there. Legally they have the right to build there as they did pass all the zoning codes.

Islam expects us to show consideration to them regarding their way of life, and we're just asking for a little back. Seems like they aren't willing to return the favor. The mayor has even offered them State Land and various other solutions to build somewhere else, but various reports have stated that they specifically want that Burlington Coat Factory Building because a wheel of one of the Airplanes that hit that tower landed on that specific building. No idea why that matters to them.

[Time]

Its not that we're oppose to mosque building. What we're asking is for them to show consideration to the victims and family of people who lost their lives on 9/11 to not build there. Legally they have the right to build there as they did pass all the zoning codes.

Islam expects us to show consideration to them regarding their way of life, and we're just asking for a little back. Seems like they aren't willing to return the favor. The mayor has even offered them State Land and various other solutions to build somewhere else, but various reports have stated that they specifically want that Burlington Coat Factory Building because a wheel of one of the Airplanes that hit that tower landed on that specific building. No idea why that matters to them.

Muslims dies in 9/11, show some consideration to them and stop ignoring that?

I mean seriously, why do people not get that? Islam is one of the largest religions, so Muslims definitely died in 9/11, not all Muslims caused 9/11. So, why cant they build it?

[wolfram]

People are using the 4 blocks away story as an argument against it. I see churches closer together than that. There's even a place here with churches across the street from each other. I'm saying it makes no sense to use that as an argument unless people are hypocrites saying it's not okay for a mosque but fine for churches.

There are various denominations of churches, hence they build next to each other. They preach different things.
Islam does have its main denominations consisting of Sunnis and Shiites, but they'd kill each other before building next to each other.


Muslims dies in 9/11, show some consideration to them and stop ignoring that?

I never said Muslims didn't die during 9/11. I was talking about victims as a whole. I see it as Americans that died on 9/11.
You seem to think that I'm just talking about Christians and that everyone that died is White during 9/11.
I was posting the various solutions that are being talked about.

[Time]

I never said Muslims didn't die during 9/11. I was talking about victims as a whole. I see it as Americans that died on 9/11.
You seem to think that I'm just talking about Christians and that everyone that died is White during 9/11.
I was posting the various solutions that are being talked about.


What we're asking is for them to show consideration to the victims and family of people who lost their lives on 9/11 to not build there.

Okay, well, if you saying, yes Muslims died on 9/11, then why is it offensive? Unless your saying that every Muslim caused 9/11.

Oh, and they can be white....So....yeah

[Science]

The crusades argument really should've ended wolfram's posts.

[Time]

The crusades argument really should've ended wolfram's posts.

O.o? When was there a crusades argument....*goes back to re-read*

[Science]

The crusades argument really should've ended wolfram's posts.

Might've read it somewhere else, bad memory ; ;


And to those who say that any location in lower Manhattan is too close for a Muslim structure, let me remind you that right now, in the shadow of what would be the former World Trade Center, there’s a Halal Meat Hot Truck with a multi-denominational line that wraps around my building every day at lunch time. And I’m positive that’s owned by a Muslim. And I’ve even suffered at his hands. (Spoiler alert: avoid the goat rhoti). Should he move a few more blocks away too? Of course, not. That would just be silly, right? Is it different? Why? Because mosques are religious and the 911 terrorists perverted Islam into something violent and hateful? Guess what? Those knights did the same thing to Christianity for the 300 years of the Crusades, and no one’s saying that churches shouldn’t be built anywhere in … Europe.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/#ixzz0xRzdLmFZ

[wolfram]

Okay, well, if you saying, yes Muslims died on 9/11, then why is it offensive? Unless your saying that every Muslim caused 9/11.

Oh, and they can be white....So....yeah

A radical division of Islam, not all of Islam, did cause the events of 9/11.

The mosque isn't being built there to honor and Muslims that fell during 9/11 either. Building the mosque there represents a proposition that is opposed by 61% of Americans by polls taken while 26% approve of the idea, public opinions don't count anymore? We're just asking to be listened to.

[Science]

A radical division of Islam, not all of Islam, did cause the events of 9/11.

The mosque isn't being built there to honor and Muslims that fell during 9/11 either. Building the mosque there represents a proposition that is opposed by 61% of Americans by polls taken while 26% approve of the idea, public opinions don't count anymore? We're just asking to be listened to.

The terrorists attacks of Islam were just people who took the Quran too far. They took the meaning in the worst way possible, and twisted it into their excuse for violence and death. Honestly, all religions honor life dearly, so why would any part of the Islamic religion tell followers to murder others?

[Time]

A radical division of Islam, not all of Islam, did cause the events of 9/11.

The mosque isn't being built there to honor and Muslims that fell during 9/11 either. Building the mosque there represents a proposition that is opposed by 61% of Americans by polls taken while 26% approve of the idea, public opinions don't count anymore? We're just asking to be listened to.

You didnt answer my question, why is it offensive?

And that poll, I can assure you is flawed, did you see that on Fox news? I mean, I know a ton of people that support the mosque, like,everyone I know....I hate when people use polls like that, because its not really 61 or 26 percent of Americans, its 61 or 26 percent of Americans WHO THEY ASKED, they didnt ask me or my family, or any of my friends, did they ask you? Or anyone in this thread? No.

[wolfram]

Might've read it somewhere else, bad memory ; ;

Blog post aren't news....those are opinionated facts.

[Science]

Blog post aren't news....those are opinionated facts.

He used FACT to support his opinion(COMPLETE stupidity of others).

[Time]

Blog post aren't news....those are opinionated facts.
I still just need to know WHY its offensive...reason please?

[wolfram]

You didnt answer my question, why is it offensive?

And that poll, I can assure you is flawed, did you see that on Fox news? I mean, I know a ton of people that support the mosque, like, everyone I know....I hate when people use polls like that, because its not really 61 or 26 percent of Americans, its 61 or 26 percent of Americans WHO THEY ASKED, they didnt ask me or my family, or any of my friends, did they ask you? Or anyone in this thread? No.

We rely on polls for almost all statistics. They take a sample size and work with that. They can't literally call everyone in the United States. That is why there is always that +/- margin of error. I don't even watch TV. I pay attention to Rasmussen and Gallup. And if you think those are biased...>.<.

Just show consideration to everyone's that lost their lives on that day.

[Time]

We rely on polls for almost all statistics. They take a sample size and work with that. They can't literally call everyone in the United States. That is why there is always that +/- margin of error. I don't even watch TV. I pay attention to Rasmussen and Gallup. And if you think those are biased...>.<.

Just show consideration to everyone's that lost their lives on that day.

Okay, fine, ignore the poll things.

But this is a simple question, why is it offensive, I just need the answer to that, unless its offensive just because their Muslim?

And I do show consideration, I care, I live in New York state, I remember the news on that day (which is the only thing I remember from that year, cause I just turned 14...), but I show consideration by understanding, I understand that not all Muslims caused 9/11, I understand that the only way to truly heal is through helping each other.

[Science]

We rely on polls for almost all statistics. They take a sample size and work with that. They can't literally call everyone in the United States. That is why there is always that +/- margin of error. I don't even watch TV. I pay attention to Rasmussen and Gallup. And if you think those are biased...>.<.

Just show consideration to everyone's that lost their lives on that day.

Would you care if people built a Church or Temple or rather any religious building over the remains of a village destroyed in the current war?

[wolfram]

Would you care if people built a Church or Temple or rather any religious building over the remains of a village destroyed in the current war?

Iraq War? If they want to build a religious building there, that's up to them. But i also expect them to take into account public opinions. If the people of that don't want that building around, why build there. There are simpler solutions.

[Science]

Iraq War? If they want to build a religious building there, that's up to them. But i also expect them to take into account public opinions. If the people of that don't want that building around, why build there. There are simpler solutions.

So are you saying it's okay for a mosque to be built near ground zero as long as it's okay with 'them.'

(who is them?)

[Time]

Iraq War? If they want to build a religious building there, that's up to them. But i also expect them to take into account public opinions. If the people of that don't want that building around, why build there. There are simpler solutions.

Okay....You still haven't answered my question...So Ill just respond to this..

So, was that Poll you posted a poll of the United States or New York, because its the people in the area whose opinion mattered, I live in New York, the people I know who support it live in New York. So, was that poll just from New York.

[wolfram]

Okay, fine, ignore the poll things.

But this is a simple question, why is it offensive, I just need the answer to that, unless its offensive just because their Muslim?

And I do show consideration, I care, I live in New York state, I remember the news on that day (which is the only thing I remember from that year, cause I just turned 14...), but I show consideration by understanding, I understand that not all Muslims caused 9/11, I understand that the only way to truly heal is through helping each other.

As I stated before, the Mosque is at Ground Zero. The building in which it will be built was damaged by the landing gear of one of the aircraft that hit the World Trade Center.

[Time]

As I stated before, the Mosque is at Ground Zero. The building in which it will be built was damaged by the landing gear of one of the aircraft that hit the World Trade Center.

Um...Its not at Ground Zero, its 4 blocks away....And, it got hit by the landing gear of one of the aircraft...So? Are you saying NOTHING can be built in that building? Or just a Mosque cant be built there? Why cant a Mosque be built there? Because all Muslims caused 9/11?

[wolfram]

Okay....You still haven't answered my question...So Ill just respond to this..

So, was that Poll you posted a poll of the United States or New York, because its the people in the area whose opinion mattered, I live in New York, the people I know who support it live in New York. So, was that poll just from New York.

United States. If you think its just New York opinions that matter. Why is everyone weighing in with their own opinions including Obama, Palin, Reid, etc. etc? Their opinions don't matter?

[Science]

United States. If you think its just New York opinions that matter. Why is everyone weighing in with their own opinions including Obama, Palin, Reid, etc. etc? Their opinions don't matter?

Do the voices of the people who are all for the mosque matter?

Sorry Tim, I had to talk >:

[wolfram]

Um...Its not at Ground Zero, its 4 blocks away....And, it got hit by the landing gear of one of the aircraft...So? Are you saying NOTHING can be built in that building? Or just a Mosque cant be built there? Why cant a Mosque be built there? Because all Muslims caused 9/11?

Its not that nothing can be build on that building. I just believe something less sensitive then a religious building should be built there. It includes all religion, not just a Church or a Mosque or anything of that sort. And I already stated, a radical arm of Islam caused 9/11.

[Science]

Its not that nothing can be build on that building. I just believe something less sensitive then a religious building should be built there. It includes all religion, not just a Church or a Mosque or anything of that sort. And I already stated, a radical arm of Islam caused 9/11.

It's a community center. Not even mainly a religious building.

[wolfram]

Do the voices of the people who are all for the mosque matter?

Sorry Tim, I had to talk >:

They matter, i never said they couldn't talk. I am listening to them too.
But is gotta be more then just, "their Muslim, let them build there, its freedom of religion."
I want to know, why building there will help them? What does it achieve overall?

[Science]

They matter, i never said they couldn't talk. I am listening to them too.
But is gotta be more then just, "their Muslim, let them build there, its freedom of religion."
I want to know, why building there will help them? What does it achieve overall?

But what bad does it do? Unless it is physically bad for anyone, I don't see anything wrong with it. A lot of people would say it isn't wrong in anyway.

[EndlessDreams]

While the Muslims have the legal right to build the mosque there, the question of whether it is moral or not is the big debate right now between the two sides. I believe they are doing a massive demonstrations right now from both sides.

It will take a long time before the American public will change their opinion of Muslims. It is similar to what happened to Catholics, Jews, and etc. in US history. There were a lot of resistance against those groups at one time or another.

[Time]

They matter, i never said they couldn't talk. I am listening to them too.
But is gotta be more then just, "their Muslim, let them build there, its freedom of religion."
I want to know, why building there will help them? What does it achieve overall?

They own the property, they want to give back to a community damaged by radicals in their religion by building a community center?

[wolfram]

It's a community center. Not even mainly a religious building.

A building that will house the Qur'an and will observe the praying times of Islam. I understand that it is more then just a "mosque" that is being built there.
This building will also house objects that is consider holy to the religion of Islam and we can reasonably expect them to teach the teachings of the Qur'an there.

[Science]

While the Muslims have the legal right to build the mosque there, the question of whether it is moral or not is the big debate right now between the two sides.
I believe they are doing a massive demonstrations right now from both sides.

It will take a long time before the American public will change their opinion of Muslims. It is similar to what happened to Catholics, Jews, and etc. in US history. There were a lot of resistance against those groups at one time or another.

The minds of modern society should be far more open though, since the knowledge of people now is grater than the knowledge of people when other religious or ethnic groups were being stereotyped.


A building that will house the Qur'an and will observe the praying times of Islam. I understand that it is more then just a "mosque" that is being built there.
This building will also house objects that is consider holy to the religion of Islam and we can reasonably expect them to teach the teachings of the Qur'an there.

So? What bad does it do? Really, there is NOTHING wrong with it.

[Time]

A building that will house the Qur'an and will observe the praying times of Islam. I understand that it is more then just a "mosque" that is being built there.
This building will also house objects that is consider holy to the religion of Islam and we can reasonably expect them to teach the teachings of the Qur'an there.
But isnt it worth having the community center? I mean, the religious part is on the top (The Qur'an cant be under anyone), so people wouldnt even have to go through it to access the community center.

[wolfram]

But what bad does it do? Unless it is physically bad for anyone, I don't see anything wrong with it. A lot of people would say it isn't wrong in anyway.

Its a question of whether its morally bad to build there. Polls show that 2/3 of American believe it is in bad taste to build there considering the history around that area.

[Science]

I'm gonna say one more thing. A non catholic can go to catholic school, so why shouldn't non Muslims be able to enjoy this community center?


Its a question of whether its morally bad to build there. Polls show that 2/3 of American believe it is in bad taste to build there considering the history around that area.

You're the one who told me opinions don't matter.

[Time]

Its a question of whether its morally bad to build there. Polls show that 2/3 of American believe it is in bad taste to build there considering the history around that area.

But WHY? Why is it bad? Thats what I dont get, why do they find it bad?

[Science]

But WHY? Why is it bad? Thats what I dont get, why do they find it bad?

I even asked this question. wolfram obviously has nothing bad to say about this building, rather than it being associated with the Islamic culture, which is obviously not bad at all.

[wolfram]

I'm gonna say one more thing. A non catholic can go to catholic school, so why shouldn't non Muslims be able to enjoy this community center?



You're the one who told me opinions don't matter.

I said opinionated blogs. Opinion polls are more neutral in their stance as it is a variety of people expressing their opinions. A blog is 1 person stating how they see things.

Your very right about your school comment. But a non-christian can choose to not participate in the religious going-ons of that Christian school. Due to Sharia Law and the Figh, basicly the "Laws of Islam". It states that if you do not follow, you are not one of us.

[Science]

I said opinionated blogs. Opinion polls are more neutral in their stance as it is a variety of people expressing their opinions. A blog is 1 person stating how they see things.

Your very right about your school comment. But a non-christian can choose to not participate in the religious going-ons of that Christian school. Due to Sharia Law and the Figh, basicly the "Laws of Islam". It states that if you do not follow, you are not one of us.

You don't have to follow Islam to enjoy the community center though. And please answer Timexpo's question.

[Time]

I said opinionated blogs. Opinion polls are more neutral in their stance as it is a variety of people expressing their opinions. A blog is 1 person stating how they see things.

Your very right about your school comment. But a non-christian can choose to not participate in the religious going-ons of that Christian school. Due to Sharia Law and the Figh, basicly the "Laws of Islam". It states that if you do not follow, you are not one of us.

Okay, so if your not Christian, you can go to a Christian school, but not do religious stuff.
Okay, so if your not Muslim, you can go to the community center, but not do religious stuff.

[wolfram]

I even asked this question. wolfram obviously has nothing bad to say about this building, rather than it being associated with the Islamic culture, which is obviously not bad at all.

What it represents to the American's that lost their lives there. Don't bring up that Muslims died on 9/11 too. I am talking about Americans. Everyone one of them. Blacks, Asians, Hispanic, Muslims, Whites, etc. we all suffered a loss there. Not just the victims, but everyone all over the United States. We all lost something during that day. Its a question of morals. Physically they can be there, but the question being argued is, should they be there?

[EndlessDreams]

The minds of modern society should be far more open though, since the knowledge of people now is grater than the knowledge of people when other religious or ethnic groups were being stereotyped.


Knowledge of people? Not everyone has a somewhat decent knowledge of history, or much for that matter. The general public doesn't really care for most of that kind of stuff, they care more about the here and now. Its not like they paid much attention in their history classes or anything.

From this article (http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/3138/) about the most dangerous religion, it lists more details of similar things that happened in the past:


• In colonial America, Protestant men burned witches at the stake, hanged Quakers on the gallows, destroyed indigenous surrounding cultures, and supported the heinous slave trade bringing Africans to North America.

• In the early national period and through the antebellum era, white Protestant males continued the wanton devastation of Native American tribes as the American territories expanded; inflicted horrible suffering on slaves by tearing families apart, raping innocent women, and killing blacks as if they were not human beings; murdered Joseph Smith and harassed early Mormon followers; and discriminated against Catholics in both subtle and overtly hostile acts of violence.

• In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, men associated with Protestant churches espoused awful anti-Semitic views that led to the lynching of Leo Frank and a host of discriminatory practices against Jews, harassed freed blacks and others by wearing white hoods and engaging in despicable, cowardly, and murderous acts, and enacted numerous policies that forced Native peoples to convert to Christianity.

• From the early decades of the twentieth century on through to the end of the twentieth century, white Protestants made sure that Japanese Americans were placed in internment camps on the West coast, joined a variety of Christian militia movements spread across rural America that promoted violence against the federal government, and participated in a range of hate crimes against blacks, gays, and others deemed to be enemies worthy of discrimination and brutality.

[Time]

What it represents to the American's that lost their lives there. Don't bring up that Muslims died on 9/11 too. I am talking about Americans. Everyone one of them. Blacks, Asians, Hispanic, Muslims, Whites, etc. we all suffered a loss there. Not just the victims, but everyone all over the United States. We all lost something during that day. Its a question of morals. Physically they can be there, but the question being argued is, should they be there?

And the answer is yes, because they care, they want to give something back, they understand how bad that day was.

[Science]

From this article (http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/3138/) about the most dangerous religion, it lists more details of similar things that happened in the past:

People just need someone to blame their problems on. For the longest time, people blamed Jews. Now people are just blaming anyone who is different.

[wolfram]

Okay, so if your not Christian, you can go to a Christian school, but not do religious stuff.
Okay, so if your not Muslim, you can go to the community center, but not do religious stuff.

I'll answer both your post here, since they are essentially the same.

I have said that according to Sharia Law and the Figh, if you don't follow their laws, you are not welcomed. Basically if you go into this community center, you shall be expected to follow the teachings of Islam whether you like it or not. Sharia law states, an eye for an eye. There are no exceptions in Sharia Laws.

You do not have a choice to just show up and hang out without observing the religious aspects of this community center.


And the answer is yes, because they care, they want to give something back, they understand how bad that day was.

I have yet to see them state this in any press clippings.

[Science]

I'll answer both your post here, since they are essentially the same.

I have said that according to Sharia Law and the Figh, if you don't follow their laws, you are not welcomed. Basically if you go into this community center, you shall be expected to follow the teachings of Islam whether you like it or not. Sharia law states, an eye for an eye. There are no exceptions in Sharia Laws.

You do not have a choice to just show up and hang out without observing the religious aspects of this community center.

It's not like people follow any religions as they were originally intended to be followed as. As far as we all know, the Bible was changed drastically throughout time, and the original meaning is lost forever. And it's not like Islam is different from many other religions. They follow one God, they find all life sacred, they denounce violence, etc.

[Time]

I'll answer both your post here, since they are essentially the same.

I have said that according to Sharia Law and the Figh, if you don't follow their laws, you are not welcomed. Basically if you go into this community center, you shall be expected to follow the teachings of Islam whether you like it or not. Sharia law states, an eye for an eye. There are no exceptions in Sharia Laws.

You do not have a choice to just show up and hang out without observing the religious aspects of this community center.



The center offers open houses that are open to non-Muslims and encourages community participation. The center's annual open house, which is held the same day as Columbia's Earth Day, aims to explain Islam to the local population.

Columbia Muslims share views on mosque near ground zero - Columbia Missourian (http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2010/08/21/columbia-islamic-center-and-ground-zero-controversy/)
Or not, see they are giving back to the community.

[wolfram]

It's not like people follow any religions as they were originally intended to be followed as. As far as we all know, the Bible was changed drastically throughout time, and the original meaning is lost forever. And it's not like Islam is different from many other religions. They follow one God, they find all life sacred, they denounce violence, etc.

But people choose to follow their own religion. We don't want to be forced to follow one we don't believe in.
They all preach the same things, it doesn't mean they all teach it the same way. We choose how we want to learn it.

[Science]

But people choose to follow their own religion. We don't want to be forced to follow one we don't believe in.
They all preach the same things, it doesn't mean they all teach it the same way. We choose how we want to learn it.

And you can choose not to follow their religion in a community center. It's not like just because America was started by people of one religion, we all must follow their religion.

[Axx]

I think the biggest problem (in my view) is this "Qur'an can't be under anyone" spiel. Much like how people protest "In God we Trust" and "One Nation under God"--because it's just there, it's forcing a certain view.

My personal opinion is that you pass a ban on all religious buildings X feet from ground zero, or you let them build it.

[Time]

I think the biggest problem (in my view) is this "Qur'an can't be under anyone" spiel. Much like how people protest "In God we Trust" and "One Nation under God"--because it's just there, it's forcing a certain view.

My personal opinion is that you pass a ban on all religious buildings X feet from ground zero, or you let them build it.
I dont understand your first point? I mean, Ive been using that because its a community center with the religious part on top, because its offensive for the Qur'an to physically be under someone.

[wolfram]

Or not, see they are giving back to the community.

That's a totally different mosque. Not the one intended for Ground Zero.
I didn't say all mosque was bad, neither are they all good either.


And you can choose not to follow their religion in a community center. It's not like just because America was started by people of one religion, we all must follow their religion.

Reread my post about Sharia Law. They won't accept anyone on a long term basis into the community center without them adhering to Islam. Yes education and open houses are nice for the community, but that gives it a sense that its closed to outsiders when its not an open house.

[Axx]

I dont understand your first point? I mean, Ive been using that because its a community center with the religious part on top, because its offensive for the Qur'an to physically be under someone.
That is the point. You're forced to accept Islam's teachings that the Qur'an is a holy book and all is beneath it. Well, symbolically, anyways. Like I said before, it's offensive the same way that 'In God We Trust' printed on money is offensive to non-Christians (most don't care, but a few will protest it).

[Time]

That's a totally different mosque. Not the one intended for Ground Zero.
I didn't say all mosque was bad, neither are they all good either.

The point is you dont have to be Muslim to use the community center.


Rezwan Islam said the community in lower Manhattan will benefit from similar services if the Islamic center is allowed to be built. He says the center would also highlight the American values of liberty and justice.

[wolfram]

The point is you dont have to be Muslim to use the community center.

During open houses. It never said that doors are always open for everyone.

[Science]

Reread my post about Sharia Law. They won't accept anyone on a long term basis into the community center without them adhering to Islam. Yes education and open houses are nice for the community, but that gives it a sense that its closed to outsiders when its not an open house.

It's not even a mainly religious place though. Doesn't matter if they don't follow Islam or not. Probably won't even be mainly run by Muslim people. Probably just the mosque area itself will be run by Muslims.

[Time]

That is the point. You're forced to accept Islam's teachings that the Qur'an is a holy book and all is beneath it. Well, symbolically, anyways. Like I said before, it's offensive the same way that 'In God We Trust' printed on money is offensive to non-Christians (most don't care, but a few will protest it).

Oh, I understand now...But the point is that it shouldn't be more offensive, I mean, why aren't people protesting the USD like they are the Mosque?

[Axx]

Oh, I understand now...But the point is that it shouldn't be more offensive, I mean, why aren't people protesting the USD like they are the Mosque?
If you want my really biased opinion on it, I think it's only a handful of people that actively care, and the media/politicians are playing it up into a religious war to spread fear and keep the people's minds off of the rest of the things that are going badly in this country. And the pledge/USD thing has been a background issue for decades now.

[wolfram]

It's not even a mainly religious place though. Doesn't matter if they don't follow Islam or not. Probably won't even be mainly run by Muslim people. Probably just the mosque area itself will be run by Muslims.

Islamic Community Center. You can't speculate on who they will or will not hire.

[Science]

Islamic Community Center. You can't speculate on who they will or will not hire.

Either way, they won't kick you out of a community center if you don't follow Islam. It's a person's choice to use or not use a community center.

[wolfram]

Oh, I understand now...But the point is that it shouldn't be more offensive, I mean, why aren't people protesting the USD like they are the Mosque?

What he means is that, They expect us to follow the teachings of the Qur'an. That it is most holy and shall never be below us. And at the same time, they protest that we have "Christian" symbols all over our USD and Pledge of Allegiance.

[Time]

Im looking up stuff on who would be allowed inside, can you post where you found that non-muslims wouldn't be allowed inside?

[wolfram]

Either way, they won't kick you out of a community center if you don't follow Islam. It's a person's choice to use or not use a community center.

How do you know they won't kick you out? Don't speculate about what will or will not happen.

[Science]

How do you know they won't kick you out? Don't speculate about what will or will not happen.

Then don't speculate/flat out say they WILL kick you out because of this law that you have no proof of even existing. If you weren't a follower of a religion, I could say you must be a shut-in to fulfill your duties on earth, so I would like proof.

[Time]

What he means is that, They expect us to follow the teachings of the Qur'an. That it is most holy and shall never be below us. And at the same time, they protest that we have "Christian" symbols all over our USD and Pledge of Allegiance.

OMG, no, they really dont, ITS A COMMUNITY CENTER, you dont have to follow Islam! Look, I got this from the official Park51 site.

Park51 is an independent project led by Muslim Americans for all New Yorkers. This project is separate from the Cordoba Initiative and ASMA. 


All New Yorkers, ALL.

You keep saying all this stuff, that simply IS NOT, true, where do you hear it?

Oh, and just to make my point even more clear.


a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community

So, what now?

/end angry rant

O.o..Thread over?

[wolfram]

Then don't speculate/flat out say they WILL kick you out because of this law that you have no proof of even existing. If you weren't a follower of a religion, I could say you must be a shut-in to fulfill your duties on earth, so I would like proof.

Have you ever seen Sharia Law enforced? There is no separation of state and religion, thier religion is the Law.

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.003)

Legal Definition of Sharia Law (http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/ShariaLaw.aspx)

[Time]

Have you ever seen Sharia Law enforced? There is no separation of state and religion, thier religion is the Law.

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.003)

Legal Definition of Sharia Law (http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/ShariaLaw.aspx)

They wont kick you out. Points to huge angry wall of text.

[wolfram]

OMG, no, they really dont, ITS A COMMUNITY CENTER, you dont have to follow Islam! Look, I got this from the official Park51 site.

All New Yorkers, ALL.

You keep saying all this stuff, that simply IS NOT, true, where do you hear it?

Oh, and just to make my point even more clear.



So, what now?

/end angry rant

O.o..Thread over?

Independent sources please? Even i don't link back to the people in charge of arguing for or against this mosque as your post states.

[Science]

Have you ever seen Sharia Law enforced? There is no separation of state and religion, thier religion is the Law.

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.003)

Legal Definition of Sharia Law (http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/S/ShariaLaw.aspx)

The only reason America isn't a theocracy is because of the diversity. If the people who use the center are diverse, the law will really not be in effect.

[Time]

Independent sources please? Even i don't link back to the people in charge of arguing for or against this mosque as your post states.

Dude...Although I dont really want to spend much more time on this, Ill try finding ANOTHER source because apparently that one isnt good enough for you...And you dont really link to anything that supports your against arguments.

But why is that source not good enough? I mean, why would they lie? Then they would actually get in trouble after they built it....

[wolfram]

The only reason America isn't a theocracy is because of the diversity. If the people who use the center are diverse, the law will really not be in effect.

I agree, diversity solves a lot of problems that might arise. Will they allow it though? Retorical Question there.

[Axx]

Have you ever seen Sharia Law enforced? There is no separation of state and religion, thier religion is the Law.

That might be true, but it's illegal (superceded, anyways) in the US, and even if they practice it, they'll most certainly cut out the objectionable parts. You can debate about the sexism and inequality of Sharia Law elsewhere, but it's a non-factor as it pertains to this particular discussion.

[wolfram]

Dude...Although I dont really want to spend much more time on this, Ill try finding ANOTHER source because apparently that one isnt good enough for you...And you dont really link to anything that supports your against arguments.

But why is that source not good enough? I mean, why would they lie? Then they would actually get in trouble after they built it....

Non-independent sources always carry biases. Park51, as a direct leader of this project, you would expect them to carry biases.

[Time]

Oh wait, I just realised, I CANT FIND ANOTHER SOURCE, want to know why? Cause the only people who can say whats going to happen IN THE community center, are the people in charge, therefore, from the official site....But heres more quotes....


In a post on the Park51 Web site later on Tuesday, El-Gamal wrote, “With the conclusion of this process, I look forward to beginning in earnest the development process and working with the Park51 team in [sic] as a community center open to all that will celebrate and honor America and Muslim American experiences.”

“Until the resolution of the landmarks issue this morning, we were unable to emerge from stage one, as we could not be clear on the impact of a designation on the architecture and design of the building or its program spaces, activities or programming,” a statement read later in the day on the Park51 Web site. “We are eager to begin working with our partners, supporters, neighbors and communities, to build a community center for everyone.”

Go-ahead for NY Islamic Cultural Center (http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=183463)

So, what do you want me to do? I cant find another source, because there actually CANT be one, you can find a ton, because its people posting things that they heard on TV or the Radio, I mean, my source should be valid.

[wolfram]

That might be true, but it's illegal (superceded, anyways) in the US, and even if they practice it, they'll most certainly cut out the objectionable parts. You can debate about the sexism and inequality of Sharia Law elsewhere, but it's a non-factor as it pertains to this particular discussion.

US law does not recognize Sharia Law. It still won't stop them from enforcing it.


Oh wait, I just realised, I CANT FIND ANOTHER SOURCE, want to know why? Cause the only people who can say whats going to happen IN THE community center, are the people in charge, therefore, form the official site....But heres more quotes....



Go-ahead for NY Islamic Cultural Center (http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=183463)

So, what do you want me to do? I cant find another source, because there actually CANT be one, you can find a ton, because its people posting things that they heard on TV or the Radio, I mean, my source should be valid.

My sources come from educational universities...not some people stating their opinions. They are law-definition websites, educational sites, etc.
Not blog post, or personal sites.

[Time]

My sources come from educational universities...not some people stating their opinions. They are law-definition websites, educational sites, etc.
Not blog post, or personal sites.
But its THEIR opinions, THEY CANT SAY, what will and wont happen inside the community center, because THEY DONT OWN IT, the only people who can say that are the people building it.

And seriously, stop double posting, you can just edit the first post.

[Axx]

US law does not recognize Sharia Law. It still won't stop them from enforcing it.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That the Muslim mosque will follow Sharia law in it's proceedings, or that the Muslim mosque will force the entire community center to follow Sharia law? I see it as that thing Church does when you go up to eat a piece of bread and drink some wine (Eucharist?). You can participate, or you can just watch. They'll do it their way, but no one will require you to do anything (besides perhaps requesting that you be polite, like asking you to remove your hat/bow your head and asking you to leave if you refuse). And this will only apply if you go to the top floor anyways.

[wolfram]

But its THEIR opinions, THEY CANT SAY, what will and wont happen inside the community center, because THEY DONT OWN IT, the only people who can say that are the people building it.

And seriously, stop double posting, you can just edit the first post.

My link didn't deal with what they will or will not do within the mosque. They link directly to translation of the Koran and Legal Definition of Sharia Law.
I never speculated about what they will or won't do. I stated that within that mosque either you follow Sharia Law or gtfo. Which is fully supported by my links.

[Time]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That the Muslim mosque will follow Sharia law in it's proceedings, or that the Muslim mosque will force the entire community center to follow Sharia law? I see it as that thing Church does when you go up to eat a piece of bread and drink some wine (Eucharist?). You can participate, or you can just watch. They'll do it their way, but no one will require you to do anything (besides perhaps requesting that you be polite, like asking you to remove your hat/bow your head and asking you to leave if you refuse). And this will only apply if you go to the top floor anyways.
This. Exactly this.

[Science]

My link didn't deal with what they will or will not do within the mosque. They link directly to translation of the Koran and Legal Definition of Sharia Law.
I never speculated about what they will or won't do. I stated that within that mosque either you follow Sharia Law or gtfo. Which is fully supported by my links.

At least spell the name of their holy book right. Shows how much you know.

[Time]

My link didn't deal with what they will or will not do within the mosque. They link directly to translation of the Koran and Legal Definition of Sharia Law.
I never speculated about what they will or won't do. I stated that within that mosque either you follow Sharia Law or gtfo. Which is fully supported by my links.

I was talking about the community center, if your just talking about the Mosque, I dont see a problem, if your not a Muslim you have no need to go to the Mosque, so my point still stands.

edit: Shirayuki Welcome Back!

[wolfram]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That the Muslim mosque will follow Sharia law in it's proceedings, or that the Muslim mosque will force the entire community center to follow Sharia law? I see it as that thing Church does when you go up to eat a piece of bread and drink some wine (Eucharist?). You can participate, or you can just watch. They'll do it their way, but no one will require you to do anything (besides perhaps requesting that you be polite, like asking you to remove your hat/bow your head and asking you to leave if you refuse). And this will only apply if you go to the top floor anyways.

With Christian beliefs you have the choice to participate. According to Sharia Law, you have to participate.


At least spell the name of their holy book right. Shows how much you know.

Qur'an and Koran. There are two different Spellings.

[Time]

With Christian beliefs you have the choice to participate. According to Sharia Law, you have to participate.

Or not go to the Mosque.

And again, theres an edit button for a reason.

[Science]

I was talking about the community center, if your just talking about the Mosque, I dont see a problem, if your not a Muslim you have no need to go to the Mosque, so my point still stands.

edit: Shirayuki Welcome Back!

Don't want to get in trouble for the argument, so leaving again.


Qur'an and Koran. There are two different Spellings.

The translated spelling is Quran though. Koran is not even remotely similar. Seems like Korean misspelled.

[Axx]

With Christian beliefs you have the choice to participate. According to Sharia Law, you have to participate.
But Sharia Law also accords different laws for Jews/Christians, due to them being 'brothers of the book'. It's stated that one of the centers' goals is to foster greater understanding of Islam-- it's certainly possible that they'll be dicks and kick non-Muslims out, but that pretty much flies in the face of their stated goals.

EDIT: Quit nitpicking about the spelling. You're just trolling, really. http://deanesmay.com/2009/08/22/koran-vs-quran/

[wolfram]

Don't want to get in trouble for the argument, so leaving again.



The translated spelling is Quran though. Koran is not even remotely similar. Seems like Korean misspelled.

The Translation is Qur'an, but Islamic scholars have also accepted Koran as a translation also. They can be used interchangeably.

[Science]

The Translation is Qur'an, but Islamic scholars have also accepted Koran and a translation also. They can be used interchangeably.

They may have accepted it, but it isn't the literal translation. Bye now.

The word Quran starts with the Arabic letter ق, or qaf.

[wolfram]

But Sharia Law also accords different laws for Jews/Christians, due to them being 'brothers of the book'. It's stated that one of the centers' goals is to foster greater understanding of Islam-- it's certainly possible that they'll be dicks and kick non-Muslims out, but that pretty much flies in the face of their stated goals.

True, all religions state that good will overcome and strive to teach that.
I'm just raising that possibility that they do kick everyone that doesn't choose to follow their teachings out.

Stating goals and carrying them out are two different things.

[Time]

True, all religions state that good will overcome and strive to teach that.
I'm just raising that possibility that they do kick everyone that doesn't choose to follow their teachings out.

Stating goals and carrying them out are two different things.

But if you dont agree with their teachings, you probably wont be going into the actual Mosque, just the rest of the community center.

[wolfram]

But if you dont agree with their teachings, you probably wont be going into the actual Mosque, just the rest of the community center.

It is a mosque that will be a community center also.

[Kazuni]

You guys. Seriously.

Cut the hostility. Also, this argument is going in circles.

If you can't prove that they will kick you out, you can't argue against others and say that their points are stupid.

@wolfram - there is an edit button for a reason. Seriously, stop double posting. It's not a huge thing but it's happened too many times in this thread. I've merged all your posts, so in the future use the edit button. Consider this a verbal warning.


And to all of you in this thread, play nice. Nobody wants trouble ._.



Also, stay on topic ._.

[Time]

It is a mosque that will be a community center also.

No, its a community center with a separate mosque located on the top floor

a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community


Edit: Sorry Kazuni....

[Compass]

I don't see why so many people hate this.
The YMCA is a community center and if they were building a YMCA nobody would of said anything.
I've listened to an interview about this.
There is going to be Cooking classes,daycare,ect.
I don't see what is wrong with that.

[wolfram]

No, its a community center with a separate mosque located on the top floor

A Mosque...

[Beepuke]

This thread is kind of degenerating. :(

Anyway, Sharia Law or not, from what I gather, this Park51 thing appears to be a community center that is being developed alongside the mosque, but independently? I don't see why Sharia Law would apply to a building that's affiliated with, but not directly under the control of the mosque. Religious law should really only apply to religious buildings. The official site is .. not really biased so much as factual. How and why would the official site LIE about who would be admitted to the community center?

As for the actual mosque, as a New Yorker who walked home from school across the midtown manhattan bridge on the day of 9/11, I don't really care if they build it or not. I'm certainly not opposed to it. I think the fact that the issue is being debated is incredibly backwards of America. We, who pride ourselves on intellectual and religious freedom, are making a huge deal about something that should be a no brainer. It's not Islam that attacked the WTC on 9/11, it's not Islam that we were engaged in war with for the last decade. We were fighting the radical extremists of Islam, representing a very small minority of all Muslims. To indiscriminately discriminate (lol) is terribly unfair to the 99.9% of Muslims who don't wish fiery death and destruction upon America.

tl;dr this entire debate is stupid, mosque should be built if zoning laws permit, there are no MORALS involved here

[wolfram]

I don't see why so many people hate this.
The YMCA is a community center and if they were building a YMCA nobody would of said anything.
I've listened to an interview about this.
There is going to be Cooking classes,daycare,ect.
I don't see what is wrong with that.

YMCA is community center. Not a church.
There is no where to officially go pray in the YMCA.

[Time]

A Mosque...

No, you dont have to go the the Mosque, so the Mosque rules/traditions dont apply to the rest of the community center.

again.

a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community

Separately.

[Kazuni]

Community center open to all is on the lower floors. They won't kick you out for not being religious. It's for all of New York.
Like said previously, cooking classes, community activities.

A mosque is on the top floor. It's optional to go there or not. What people do there is not of your concern.

I can't see why you're still arguing, wolfram.

[Time]

Community center open to all is on the lower floors. They won't kick you out for not being religious. It's for all of New York.
Like said previously, cooking classes, community activities.

A mosque is on the top floor. It's optional to go there or not. What people do there is not of your concern.

I can't see why you're still arguing, wolfram.

adding to things included in the community center


outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
a 500-seat auditorium
a restaurant and culinary school
cultural amenities including exhibitions
education programs
a library, reading room and art studios
childcare services
a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

[wolfram]

This thread is kind of degenerating. :(

Anyway, Sharia Law or not, from what I gather, this Park51 thing appears to be a community center that is being developed alongside the mosque, but independently? I don't see why Sharia Law would apply to a building that's affiliated with, but not directly under the control of the mosque. Religious law should really only apply to religious buildings. The official site is .. not really biased so much as factual. How and why would the official site LIE about who would be admitted to the community center?

As for the actual mosque, as a New Yorker who walked home from school across the midtown manhattan bridge on the day of 9/11, I don't really care if they build it or not. I'm certainly not opposed to it. I think the fact that the issue is being debated is incredibly backwards of America. We, who pride ourselves on intellectual and religious freedom, are making a huge deal about something that should be a no brainer. It's not Islam that attacked the WTC on 9/11, it's not Islam that we were engaged in war with for the last decade. We were fighting the radical extremists of Islam, representing a very small minority of all Muslims. To indiscriminately discriminate (lol) is terribly unfair to the 99.9% of Muslims who don't wish fiery death and destruction upon America.

tl;dr this entire debate is stupid, mosque should be built if zoning laws permit, there are no MORALS involved here

Legal they have passed all zoning laws and are permitted to build there. Physically they can start building as soon as the funds come in. The question many people raise is, "Is it an Insult to the memory of 9/11 to build this particular mosque there?"

They can just as well build somewhere else. Even the major and governor of New York has offered them Government Land to build on.

[Kazuni]

adding to things included in the community center

Exactly. This isn't based on the mosque. It's based on the community center, the mosque is just an addition, like the swimming pool, the auditorium, etc etc.

Also, I'll repeat what Tim quoted :

a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

The mosque isn't harmful. It's a religion.

You can't blame 911 on the innocent people who use that mosque. It's just another community thing.



Legal they have passed all zoning laws and are permitted to build there. Physically they can start building as soon as the funds come in. The question many people raise is, "Is it an Insult to the memory of 9/11 to build this particular mosque there?"

They can just as well build somewhere else. Even the major and governor of New York has offered them Government Land to build on.

Why should they build somewhere else? This community center has as much of a right as anything to be there.
Again, you can't blame 911 on the people who want the community center to be built. They don't deserve to have to make way because Americans feel insulted, like you said before.
You can't blame 911 on Muslims in general, just like you can't blame world hunger on Americans.

[Time]

Legal they have passed all zoning laws and are permitted to build there. Physically they can start building as soon as the funds come in. The question many people raise is, "Is it an Insult to the memory of 9/11 to build this particular mosque there?"

They can just as well build somewhere else. Even the major and governor of New York has offered them Government Land to build on.
And I keep asking why it would be an insult, and there isnt a reason, its not an insult, its a memorial. Im only going to post a maximum of 5 more posts in this thread, unless something big happens.

[Science]

Legal they have passed all zoning laws and are permitted to build there. Physically they can start building as soon as the funds come in. The question many people raise is, "Is it an Insult to the memory of 9/11 to build this particular mosque there?"

They can just as well build somewhere else. Even the major and governor of New York has offered them Government Land to build on.

It's not even mainly a mosque. It's really barely a mosque. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions, so the world should cater to that fact, shouldn't it?

[Time]

It's not even mainly a mosque. It's really barely a mosque. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions, so the world should cater to that fact, shouldn't it?

Just adding to that.

There are roughly one million Muslims in the tri-state area and several hundred thousand in New York City.

Post 1.

[wolfram]

It's not even mainly a mosque. It's really barely a mosque. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions, so the world should cater to that fact, shouldn't it?

I disagree. All religions should be respected. Not catered towards.

[Kazuni]

I disagree. All religions should be respected. Not catered towards.

Yes, respected.
So if you respect them, you should allow them to build this community center that's not even based on the mosque.

[Compass]

YMCA is community center. Not a church.
There is no where to officially go pray in the YMCA.
I live near the first one that was opened in the United States.
My friend says it has a church which maybe the C is in the YMCA.
Why do you hate about the Mosque so much?
Seriously the US has freedom religion we can't tell anyone what not to believe in.
They're not going to do anything bad...

[Beepuke]

Legal they have passed all zoning laws and are permitted to build there. Physically they can start building as soon as the funds come in. The question many people raise is, "Is it an Insult to the memory of 9/11 to build this particular mosque there?"

They can just as well build somewhere else. Even the major and governor of New York has offered them Government Land to build on.

Isn't it cathartic to let things go? Not to mention I don't see where the actual insult would be. It's not like the Muslim mosques were the ones that flew the planes into the twin towers. If they take the offer to move the mosque elsewhere, it will just further solidify the misguided idea that Islam is a dangerous religion.

[Science]

I disagree. All religions should be respected. Not catered towards.

If a religion has 3 followers, should there be a place of worship for the religion attached to a community center?

[Time]

I disagree. All religions should be respected. Not catered towards.

I think she meant it more along the lines of the world should be learning to deal with it, not fear it. But I could be wrong.

Post 2.

edit: Oh, ninjad.

[Kazuni]

Isn't it cathartic to let things go? Not to mention I don't see where the actual insult would be. It's not like the Muslim mosques were the ones that flew the planes into the twin towers. If they take the offer to move the mosque elsewhere, it will just further solidify the misguided idea that Islam is a dangerous religion.

I agree with this.

There's nothing wrong with the religion itself. Some people just misunderstand the text (or use it as an excuse), hence 911. But that happens with -all- religions.

There are Muslims who are kind and honest people. You're saying they don't deserve their part of a community center because other people cause 911?

[wolfram]

I think she meant it more along the lines of the world should be learning to deal with it, not fear it. But I could be wrong.

Post 2.

edit: Oh, ninjad.

From the way it sounded, it felt like he said we should kowtow to a growing religion. Sorry if i misinterpreted your meaning.

[Science]

I wish an atheist caused 911. Would've spared be a few dead brain cells.

[Kazuni]

I wish an atheist caused 911. Would've spared be a few dead brain cells.

Or rather, you should wish it didn't happen at all.

[wolfram]

I actually find it an enlightening debate.

[Science]

Or rather, you should wish it didn't happen at all.

Want to see what dumb reasons people would conjure up to still blame someone for their problems.

[Osayidan]

Too much to read, i'll just ask a simple question.

If instead of a mosque, it was a synagogue, church, or Buddhist temple, would there still be 61% of Americans against the idea?
If the answer is no, there wouldn't still be 61% of americans against it, then my work here is done.

[Axx]

Too much to read, i'll just ask a simple question.

If instead of a mosque, it was a synagogue, church, or Buddhist temple, would there still be 61% of Americans against the idea?
If the answer is no, there wouldn't still be 61% of americans against it, then my work here is done.
Actually, I'll add something on to that.
If it was a radical Christian, Jewish, Buddhist(not sure that's even possible, but go with it) or [Insert Religion Here] violent group who had claimed they had destroyed the Twin Towers because they were a symbol of Infidels, would there still be 61% of Americans against the idea?

I'm inclined to believe the answer would be "No" for Christian extremists, "No" to Jewish extremists (due to a general sensitivity to the plight of Jews arisen from a certain historical incident, but still a slightly less comfortable "No"), and "Yes" to any other religion. I also believe that if it was an extremist atheist group I'd be in jail or dead right now. Regardless of your views, the majority of Americans are God-fearing Christians. >.>

[abc33kr]

They may have accepted it, but it isn't the literal translation. Bye now.

The word Quran starts with the Arabic letter ق, or qaf.

Koran is Koran.

Even if it is wrong, some things are better off as they are.

For example,
Korea <- dae han min gook
Japan <- Nipon (lol its actually funny how japan got its name. first chinese made it easier for them to say. then western ppl came and made it easier for them to say)
China <-Chûng-koet


Thus, since Americans don't have muslim tongue, Quran -> Koran.

[Beepuke]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html

Not to spark another raging one sided debate or anything, but here's a perspective on the mosque witten in the NYTimes recently. It kind of makes a general outline of how this entire mosque issue really paints a terrible picture of how Americans are Islamophobic and how this entire issue seems to be politically motivated. :x

[Dusk]

I personally don't care that it is being build because I don't actually believe that muslims did 9/11. I guess you could call me a conspiracist, but I honestly don't believe a word that the government has said about it.

WTC = "steel structure was weaked by the fire and caused the buildings to collapse."

First off, the fire wasn't even distributed throughout the entire building. How could a fire in one part of the building cause an entire massive reinforced steel structure, which was designed to withstand fires and plane crashes, to collapse? Molten steel was found within the remains. Not weakened steel. Melted, molten steel. Steel melts at around 1370 degrees Celsius, or about 2500 degrees Fahrenheit. Jet fuel burns at a maximum of about 1000 degrees Celsius, and it was only that high for about 15 - 20 minutes within the WTC. The rest of the time it was only around 600 degrees Celsius. The temperature may have weakened the steel, but not melted it, which is what was found. But the government says that the steel was only weakened. It doesn't make any sense.

If the muslims did do it, the government allowed it. yay conspiracy

btw, as stated before, there's already been a Mosque 4 blocks away from ground zero for a LONG time now. Putting one 2 blocks closer wont be a difference.

[Virtue]

The minds of modern society should be far more open though, since the knowledge of people now is grater than the knowledge of people when other religious or ethnic groups were being stereotyped.Liberal belief in total*vagueness, without any direction unless *it has "Yeah!" factor to it, and logical fallacies all over the place - offence of ignoratio elenchi, moot point concerning time and human progression, misspelling of "Greater" and complete failure in understanding the "usage" of knowledge.

So? What bad does it do? Really, there is NOTHING wrong with it. Draws attention to the fact that the terrorists were muslim... guaranteed to offend, and so obviously would that it is a tactic to do so... Arguably disrespectful to the dead... Stirring up levels of racial hatred, and fuelling an already well fuelled fire.

It's not like people follow any religions as they were originally intended to be followed as. As far as we all know, the Bible was changed drastically throughout time, and the original meaning is lost forever. Citation needed.

And it's not like Islam is different from many other religions. They follow one God, they find all life sacred, they denounce violence, etc.They denounce violence? It seems you don't understand the religion of Islam.

It's not even mainly a mosque. It's really barely a mosque. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions, so the world should cater to that fact, shouldn't it?I see, I see a non sequitur!

[Science]

Liberal belief in total*vagueness, without any direction unless *it has "Yeah!" factor to it, and logical fallacies all over the place - offence of ignoratio elenchi, moot point concerning time and human progression, misspelling of "Greater" and complete failure in understanding the "usage" of knowledge.
Draws attention to the fact that the terrorists were muslim... guaranteed to offend, and so obviously would that it is a tactic to do so... Arguably disrespectful to the dead... Stirring up levels of racial hatred, and fuelling an already well fuelled fire.
Citation needed.
They denounce violence? It seems you don't understand the religion of Islam.
I see, I see a non sequitur!

Kay, let's go build a church together Zeroo.

[wolfram]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html

Not to spark another raging one sided debate or anything, but here's a perspective on the mosque witten in the NYTimes recently. It kind of makes a general outline of how this entire mosque issue really paints a terrible picture of how Americans are Islamophobic and how this entire issue seems to be politically motivated. :x

The article just attacks the prominent names (mostly republicans) that have spoken out against the mosque.