Who's Going to Get Capped Meditation?

[Iyasenu]

I am. :X

I'm a sucker for passive skills like this.
Even thought it'd take like 1.9 months to just earn back the AP to get to rA.

But passive is passive.
I'll try to work it up after CM and Smashes...

AP... isn't finite... is it?
I mean, it just gets slower later on, but there are some missions that will never hit 0 AP, right?

I'm a sucker for passive skills, but Meditation also sounds mystic, so I'm drawn in more. :O




Oh anyways, who else is going to get it capped?
Or isn't?

[Ruquion]

Not 1.9 months.


Rank F Medi = 1440/58.25 = ~24.72 AP/day
Rank A Medi = 1440/50.75 = ~28.37 AP/day
Rank A Medi = 1430 AP

Time needed for Rank A Medi to pay for itself = 1430/(28.37-24.72) = ~391.43 days.

Also, opportunity cost. Taking Rank A Medi early means you don't put AP into offensive skills. In the same time it takes you to complete 4 missions, people who placed AP into offensive skills could probably do 5. Therefore they would gain more AP from missions.

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that it was 1 second for every 7 points of INT. You probably only have ~200 more INT than most people even with full INT gear. 30 seconds isn't that much.

Personally not going to get it

[eoneagle]

Meditation *could* be good.
Its generally not good on your main char since offensive skills are better for fighting (obviously), and you will invest more time in fights.

You can always make an alt char and max med on that. Then every 3 days, just spend 1 minute to put the AP from med into a skill of your choice. repeat for a long, long time and it will pay off big time :] (maybe. unless you take one of those long breaks and forget to use the AP. Then you're foodged)

Best to just make an alt with rank F med and do the above, but meh.

[Lie]

You could always try to get 700 Int on that rA Meditation character.

For 640 second (10 minutes and 40 seconds) reduction.

[Ruquion]

You could always try to get 700 Int on that rA Meditation character.

For 640 second (10 minutes and 40 seconds) reduction.
I think it was mentioned that 7 INT reduced the time by 1 second
700 INT - 300 INT (Most people have this) = 400 INT = 57 seconds

[Okitaru]

My plan is to do meditation after I run out of useful things, (even after armor masterys though, light if I use heavy still, so not top priority) just so I don't enter a AP waste when I try to do BP 100%

[Chockeh]

Might make a mule and try to max meditation as much as I can, who knows how long I will play.

[Cucurbita]

If you pour into it at the very start, it'll be worth it in the *very* long run. So yes, I am putting points into it when I'm not putting points into guard and shield mastery.

[Taycat]

I'm just dumping left over points into it when I don't have exactly enough for the other skills.

[Spartaaaaa]

ewww, meditation costs way too much AP. It'll take years for it to pay for itself if I capped it.

[Ruquion]

ewww, meditation costs way too much AP. It'll take years for it to pay for itself if I capped it.
Only one year =s

BTW, when the token system is implemented, you'd only be able to play 6-7 battles a day, which should be around 2 hours.
You'd have more than enough time to play on your alts as well, so I doubt it'd be a good idea to get Meditation on them

[Okitaru]

Only one year =s

BTW, when the token system is implemented, you'd only be able to play 6-7 battles a day, which should be around 2 hours.
You'd have more than enough time to play on your alts as well, so I doubt it'd be a good idea to get Meditation on them

Uhh 6-7? 50 gets you more than that, I get 7 battles done in about 2 hours, but I dont even go far in token usage. Unless future boats will be costing 5 tokens as a start fee...

Besides we'll probably have some sort of NX item for a full free boat ride we'll all abuse for nexon to make bundles, then ruins should have AP restored daily when that update comes out too, meaning its far from a dead end, but for now it sort of does become one...

[Ruquion]

Uhh 6-7? 50 gets you more than that, I get 7 battles done in about 2 hours, but I dont even go far in token usage. Unless future boats will be costing 5 tokens as a start fee...

Besides we'll probably have some sort of NX item for a full free boat ride we'll all abuse for nexon to make bundles, then ruins should have AP restored daily when that update comes out too, meaning its far from a dead end, but for now it sort of does become one...
http://i56.tinypic.com/30wnh9z.png

[Kueh]

First of all, during the beta tokens reset on the hour.

Second of all, ew.

What kind of pervert plans their pleasure time like some crazy excel obsessed freak?

[Cucurbita]

What kind of pervert plans their pleasure time like some crazy excel obsessed freak?

Someone has to do it or the wiki is obsolete.

[Moppy]

I have no interest in Meditation.

[Ruquion]

Someone has to do it or the wiki is obsolete.
Actually, it was just used as a type of argument against those who kept raging at the tokens system.

[Hiccup]

Lol at least a whole year to get it XD thats some BS right thar

[Okitaru]

It's just wasting AP if you capped out anything you'll need so it's worth it there rather than wasting that AP forever, also, the charts off, lul.

[Ruquion]

It's just wasting AP if you capped out anything you'll need so it's worth it there rather than wasting that AP forever, also, the charts off, lul.
How so? D;
I was planning on publishing this stolen guide in the Guides section

[Suni]

I'll be ditching that skill. Apparently I find AP my precious to go into others :P.

[Ruquion]

I'll be ditching that skill. Apparently I find AP my precious to go into others :P.You're going to have like 12k AP by the end of EAOBT anyawys =x

[TA]

Well, since AP is infinite... I probably will at some point. Maybe... :what:

[Okitaru]

How so? D;
I was planning on publishing this stolen guide in the Guides section

Nevermind, I checked with someone, thats how it is in KR, I was assuming they used the same as I got a peek at in the files I WAS able to sneak into, carry on with your stealing, but still knowing Nexon it WILL be uncapped to either more or it resets more often just for more mone- I mean players.

[Chockeh]

Only one year =s

BTW, when the token system is implemented, you'd only be able to play 6-7 battles a day, which should be around 2 hours.
You'd have more than enough time to play on your alts as well, so I doubt it'd be a good idea to get Meditation on them
Ah, now it really might be a good idea to make a spear Lann alt and max meditation asap.

[Ruquion]

Ah, now it really might be a good idea to make a spear Lann alt and max meditation asap.
I already said you'd have more than enough time to play it as well, so why do you have to max Medi? D;

[Fracture]

Too bad we can't even get the spear skills until probably OB, if not later.

[Manic]

No Meditation for me. Not worth all that precious AP! I haven't maxed all the skills I want to, yet.

[TA]

I got Meditation to C on my 2nd Fiona... can't help but feel like it was a total and utter waste.

[Sora]

Not me, but maybe good for an Evie, easier Int I bet, and I'd probably leave her alone while I play my main.

So in the end.. I guess meditation is only good for alt character that you don't do anything with?..

[Juno]

Ranking it in lieu of hammer skills atm...I tend to think horribly long term so I'm somehow convinced it's totally worth it.

[Ruquion]

Ranking it in lieu of hammer skills atm...I tend to think horribly long term so I'm somehow convinced it's totally worth it.
Hammer skills aren't even out yet =o

[Fracture]

Hammer skills aren't even out yet =o

Exactly.

[Purutzil]

I'm getting it on Lann just cause I hate him so much and don't play him much unless I'm really bored.

[Xhyros]

Rank it to E at least. It will only take around 20ish days to start being worth it.

[Ruquion]

Rank it to E at least. It will only take around 20ish days to start being worth it.Um... No, it needs ~180 days before it pays itself off at rE

[Kueh]

Um... No, it needs ~180 days before it pays itself off at rE

I don't know where you did your math, but that's more than the required AP to get to rank E. That would mean that you take more than one day to get a single AP.

It would only take about 5 days for meditation to pay for the ap for rank E

[Okitaru]

lol, you guys know if you get really high int it changes alot, you already have abit off as a default of your int, then onwards, if we dont get token restrictions by OB (IF they threw in evie) you'd probably want to grab it just because you'll want to get as much int as you can so it pays off faster, I know it's not a massive change, but it mixes up the formula, seeing as how 40 minutes is a fairly good possibility, which is a 20% change from rA medi, yes? (Too be honest I don't know how but someone hit that much int without a trans, I'll be looking through it more though)

[Ruquion]

I don't know where you did your math, but that's more than the required AP to get to rank E. That would mean that you take more than one day to get a single AP.

It would only take about 5 days for meditation to pay for the ap for rank E
Magic.

Rank F Medi = 1440/58.5 = ~24.62 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 1440/57.0= ~25.26 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 120 AP

Time needed for Rank E Medi to pay for itself = 120/(25.26 - 24.62) = ~187.5 days.

[Xhyros]

Ah, I'm a moron. Didn't realize rF gave a 90 second reduction on its own. Kinda weird seeing as you don't get any free AP until you get meditation so the idea of rF reducing the time of something that never existed in the first place confused me.

[Okitaru]

Magic.

Rank F Medi = 1440/58.5 = ~24.62 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 1440/57.0= ~25.26 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 120 AP

Time needed for Rank E Medi to pay for itself = 120/(25.26 - 24.62) = ~187.5 days.

The MAIN idea is that it pays for itsown costs alone, then from that point it becomes something "worth it".
As much as this is more logical (and confusing) people will go for the other idea.

[zippo718]

About 175 more AP to rA Meditation. So 2 token resets.

Why? Because I rA'd everything else =/

[Ruquion]

Why? Because I rA'd everything else =/
LIES!! I have 9k AP and I'm not even close.

[Kueh]

Magic.

Rank F Medi = 1440/58.5 = ~24.62 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 1440/57.0= ~25.26 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 120 AP

Time needed for Rank E Medi to pay for itself = 120/(25.26 - 24.62) = ~187.5 days.

This is math for finding how long it takes rank E to pay for its own ap cost AND the ap that rank F made in the same amount of time.

"Pay for itself" means something different than "Pay for itself and the equivilent of a lower rank."
Pay (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pay)
for (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for)
itself (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/iself)

Thus, the time needed for rank E to pay for itself = 120/25.26 = ~4.75 days.

In 185.5 days with either rank, you'll have over 4000 ap.

I still don't think Meditation is worth it though.

[eoneagle]

This is math for finding how long it takes rank E to pay for its own ap cost AND the ap that rank F made in the same amount of time.

"Pay for itself" means something different than "Pay for itself and the equivilent of a lower rank."
Pay (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pay)
for (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for)
itself (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/iself)

Thus, the time needed for rank E to pay for itself = 120/25.26 = ~4.75 days.

In 185.5 days with either rank, you'll have over 4000 ap.

I still don't think Meditation is worth it though.

You never know.

We are basing this almost completely on Lann/Fiona. Maybe when evie or other int using classes come out, Med will be useful.

[Kueh]

^ 1 second for every 7 int.

So 700 int is only 100 seconds. If someone got 2000 int, they would 5 extra minutes. I don't think you could get 2000 int, but just to work with it:

Time to pay for ap as well as the ap rank f made in the same time = [Ap cost of rank A + Ap made by rank F]/Ap per minute of Rank A with 2000 int
Time = x
x = [1430 + x*1/58]/45
x/45 = 1430 + x*1/58
x/45 - x/58 = 1430
x[1/45 - 1/58] = 1430
x = 1430/[1/45 - 1/58]
x = 1430/(13/2610)
x = (1430*2610)/13
x = 3732300/13
x = 287100

That's in minutes. It would be 200 days. Let me know if you want me to explain my steps.

That's also with 2000 int. I think you would already have a lot of AP if you have that much int.

[Sora]

Magic.

Rank F Medi = 1440/58.5 = ~24.62 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 1440/57.0= ~25.26 AP/day
Rank E Medi = 120 AP

Time needed for Rank E Medi to pay for itself = 120/(25.26 - 24.62) = ~187.5 days.

The way you do the math there, just wrong... what you did is simply find how long it would take if u gained only .64 AP per day. Where .64 is the difference of Rank F and E, for AP per day. When people say Meditation to pay for itself, they mean the skill, not the difference from Rank F-E. Stop trying to add simple math into an even a simpler question.

You gain 25.26 AP per day if you got rank E, so 5 days = 126 AP Acquired just from Meditation Skill. Refund acquired. Happy?

Edit: Lol, thanks for clearning that up whyrainfalls. Didn't see your post :P

[Ruquion]

Um... Hello? Opportunity cost?

In 5 days time, the amount of AP you can put into practical skills:
rF Meditation = 123 AP
rE Meditation = 126 - 120 = 6 AP

[theqoo]

Um... Hello? Opportunity cost?

In 5 days time, the amount of AP you can put into practical skills:
rF Meditation = 123 AP
rE Meditation = 126 - 120 = 6 AP

Exactly.

You have to compare it with rank F.

If you spent 120 AP ranking up Meditation to E, then that 120 AP is gone, and cannot be used for other skills.

[Kueh]

Just to clarify:

"Paying for itself" means covering the initial cost of the rank. The 1430 AP. With rank A that's only 2 months.

"Being worth it" is a subjective term, so don't use it.

"Being efficient" means covering the initial cost of the rank as well as the ap that rank F made in the same amount of time. That added qualifier is why people are getting such astronomically high numbers. Because when you get more time to make up more ap using rank A, rank F is also gaining AP.

In other words, it takes a year for Rank A to "Catch up" to rank F.

[psyal]

Well, since I kinda don't care about getting things instantly, I'll probably rank this. Won't be too much of a benefit though, I must agree.

[Okitaru]

it's not going to be worth it at ALL if you hold off on touching it till way later, besides IMO theres not much to change enough in combat for me to look at and say, "USEFUL!MUSTRANKRANKRANKRANK!" like little to no differences, or something like, stone skin...

[Ruquion]

Just to clarify:

"Paying for itself" means covering the initial cost of the rank. The 1430 AP. With rank A that's only 2 months.

"Being worth it" is a subjective term, so don't use it.

"Being efficient" means covering the initial cost of the rank as well as the ap that rank F made in the same amount of time. That added qualifier is why people are getting such astronomically high numbers. Because when you get more time to make up more ap using rank A, rank F is also gaining AP.

In other words, it takes a year for Rank A to "Catch up" to rank F.
Do you really have to be that nitpicky about the wording? <__<

[Kueh]

Yes.

A lot of people can't follow the math you pull out. And others don't understand the train of thought.

When explaining something to people who don't know what's going on, you have to be very precise with your words.

[Ruquion]

A lot of people can't follow the math you pull out. And others don't understand the train of thought.

When explaining something to people who don't know what's going on, you have to be very precise with your words.
Well, I was assuming that everyone playing Vindictus is 18+ and is at least able to understand primary school level mathematics.

[Kueh]

You don't have to be 18 to play Vindictus, and you don't need to be good at math to pass primary school.

You don't even need to be good at math to get through college.

[eoneagle]

Yes.

A lot of people can't follow the math you pull out. And others don't understand the train of thought.

When explaining something to people who don't know what's going on, you have to be very precise with your words.

I really thought that kinda math was common sense math O_O

And "paying for itself" generally means profit, not paying back the initial cost.

"Being efficient" means maximizing profit.

[Kueh]

And "paying for itself" generally means profit, not paying back the initial cost.

"Being efficient" means maximizing profit.

When you're done paying off the initial cost, you begin making profit. Or in other words, you can't make a profit until you pay back the initial cost. So paying off the initial cost and making profit occur at the same point and can be used interchangeably.

Maximizing profit requires having the maximum. Rank A won't have the maximum until it makes both the initial cost as well as the same AP that rank F made in the same amount of time. In other words, when rank A makes both the initial cost as well as the same AP that rank F made in the same amount of time, it will have maximized its profits. Thus, rank A will be efficient when it catches up to rank F.

[eoneagle]

When you're done paying off the initial cost, you begin making profit. Or in other words, you can't make a profit until you pay back the initial cost. So paying off the initial cost and making profit occur at the same point and can be used interchangeably.

Maximizing profit requires having the maximum. Rank A won't have the maximum until it makes both the initial cost as well as the same AP that rank F made in the same amount of time. In other words, when rank A makes both the initial cost as well as the same AP that rank F made in the same amount of time, it will have maximized its profits. Thus, rank A will be efficient when it catches up to rank F.

"'Paying for itself' means covering the initial cost of the rank. The 1430 AP. With rank A that's only 2 months."

You just kinda proved yourself wrong :what:

[Kueh]

Go read my other posts.

I've been saying that Rank A pays for itself in two months.


Just to clarify:

"Paying for itself" means covering the initial cost of the rank. The 1430 AP. With rank A that's only 2 months.

I've also been saying that there are two points of interest, when Rank A pays for itself, and when Rank A is efficient.

Red is Rank F; Green is Rank A; Y-axis is Ap earned by Meditation; X-axis is number of days.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g206/whyrainfalls/RankAvrankF-1.png

You've made profit at ~50 days, in other words, Rank A has paid for itself. But you don't make MORE profit than rank F until ~400 days.

[Edit: I am not sure how I proved myself wrong.]

[zippo718]

"'Paying for itself' means covering the initial cost of the rank. The 1430 AP. With rank A that's only 2 months."


I don't see how some people still don't understand Med rF already gives 24 AP per day, and everyone gets rF for free.

No one is saying Meditation is bad. Med is an amazing skill. The discussion is the merits of ranking it beyond F.

It's a fact that it takes 350+ days (assuming Med works every second of every day, whether servers are up or down, etc) for Med rA to net you 1430 AP OVER Med rF.

Med rF - cost: NOTHING, returns: 24 AP/day

Med rA - cost: 1430 AP, returns: 28 AP/day

[Okitaru]

The point is most people will probably play it through that time and switch games if they get bored, meaning it helps regardless, but if you'll be staying for awhile you'll get it payed off, just works fine IMO, I'll have enough to keep me off for any increase to help, it's not as useful after we get that update for AP though, seeing as how everyone will get some 400 a day :v (except total increasing for AP-whores)

[Narc]

what ap update :O

[Okitaru]

what ap update :O

dungeons at the lowest possible AP (0 for some 10 for others) get max AP for one run which renews daily.

[Cryosite]

I think it's worth it to rank meditate. Perhaps not all the way up to rkA, but there is definitely at least a few ranks worth ranking up.

Over the course of the full eab (or whatever acronym you want to call the early access beta) I only made it to level 15. Why? Because I could find enough entertainment value in the game to play more. I never once ran out of tokens, and I sure as hell never ground any missions to where they gave tiny amounts of ap.

At this point though... there are no skills worth ranking. So there is no opportunity cost. You could try to argue that I need to repay that 120AP or however much I've spent so far on Meditate, but the simple fact of the matter is... if that ap can't be spen't on anything useful, it's not really a cost. Since spending it on meditate ensures that if/when I ever do get around to playing and go get to higher levels where other skills become available that are worth spending ap on, I'll have more ap than if I'd thrown it away ranking up garbage like ivy sweep.

[Andy-Buddy]

I think it's worth it to rank meditate. Perhaps not all the way up to rkA, but there is definitely at least a few ranks worth ranking up.

Over the course of the full eab (or whatever acronym you want to call the early access beta) I only made it to level 15. Why? Because I could find enough entertainment value in the game to play more. I never once ran out of tokens, and I sure as hell never ground any missions to where they gave tiny amounts of ap.

At this point though... there are no skills worth ranking. So there is no opportunity cost. You could try to argue that I need to repay that 120AP or however much I've spent so far on Meditate, but the simple fact of the matter is... if that ap can't be spen't on anything useful, it's not really a cost. Since spending it on meditate ensures that if/when I ever do get around to playing and go get to higher levels where other skills become available that are worth spending ap on, I'll have more ap than if I'd thrown it away ranking up garbage like ivy sweep.

Just so you know, Ivy Sweep gains a 3rd attack at rank 9. It is a pretty sweet kick, does pretty good damage, too.

[cigs]

I think it's worth it to rank meditate. Perhaps not all the way up to rkA, but there is definitely at least a few ranks worth ranking up.

Over the course of the full eab (or whatever acronym you want to call the early access beta) I only made it to level 15. Why? Because I could find enough entertainment value in the game to play more. I never once ran out of tokens, and I sure as hell never ground any missions to where they gave tiny amounts of ap.

At this point though... there are no skills worth ranking. So there is no opportunity cost. You could try to argue that I need to repay that 120AP or however much I've spent so far on Meditate, but the simple fact of the matter is... if that ap can't be spen't on anything useful, it's not really a cost. Since spending it on meditate ensures that if/when I ever do get around to playing and go get to higher levels where other skills become available that are worth spending ap on, I'll have more ap than if I'd thrown it away ranking up garbage like ivy sweep.

How can you make judgements and tell people what to spend their AP on when you haven't reached past level 15?

[eoneagle]

How can you make judgements and tell people what to spend their AP on when you haven't reached past level 15?

This.

At lv 15, you dont get any of the proish skills of EAOB.
Smash mastery (smack smack BOOM),
critical hit (flashy),
combat resp( a MUST have IMO),
counter attack for fiona (meh. pretty important i guess),
that one fiona attack at lv 20ish (no idea),
Willpower-strength-agility mastery (useful in many many many respects).

And i'm probably missing alot of other 15+ skills. Most of these skills are a priority to level. I'm not entirely sure cause i dont play fiona that much :[

I think all of these skills are worth ranking. Especially combat resp, smash mastery, critical hit (for LANN :D), strength mastery, and heavy armor mastery (didnt include this. I think this is VERY important if you wanna get better armor than crimson rage).

[Kueh]

The more I meditate on it, the more and more I think meditation is worth it.

I plan on playing Vindictus for more than just 1 year, after that I'll be ahead of the game.

Still, I don't think I'll get meditation, since I would already have 2-3 times the Ap gained from Meditation from dungeons. (Meaning I'll already have 30,000-40,000 Ap in a year. At that point I don't think I need an advantage over players.)

[Okitaru]

The more I meditate on it, the more and more I think meditation is worth it.

I plan on playing Vindictus for more than just 1 year, after that I'll be ahead of the game.

Still, I don't think I'll get meditation, since I would already have 2-3 times the Ap gained from Meditation from dungeons. (Meaning I'll already have 30,000-40,000 Ap in a year. At that point I don't think I need an advantage over players.)

Probably much further :v
But if you go so far and have LESS AP where does that get you :v
You'll run out of AP to get off dungeons from the token system, so assuming that goes in my Fiona WILL have capped Medi
Then depending on the full version with tokens will choose my Evie's meditation ranking.

[Cryosite]

How can you make judgements and tell people what to spend their AP on when you haven't reached past level 15?

Perhaps I was unclear that what I was posting are my opinions. I don't see anywhere in my post that makes anything I said into advice for other players, let alone telling people what to do.

And as for the level 15 thing, try actually reading a bit. It is my opinion that there are no skills at or before this level worth putting AP into. But that I know there are other skills that will become available at some point from leveling up and progressing along the storyline. So until those better skills become available, meditate is, in my OPINION, the best place to dump all the AP I had been earning anyway.


This.

At lv 15, you dont get any of the proish skills of EAOB.
Smash mastery (smack smack BOOM),
critical hit (flashy),
combat resp( a MUST have IMO),
counter attack for fiona (meh. pretty important i guess),
that one fiona attack at lv 20ish (no idea),
Willpower-strength-agility mastery (useful in many many many respects).

And i'm probably missing alot of other 15+ skills. Most of these skills are a priority to level. I'm not entirely sure cause i dont play fiona that much :[

I think all of these skills are worth ranking. Especially combat resp, smash mastery, critical hit (for LANN :D), strength mastery, and heavy armor mastery (didnt include this. I think this is VERY important if you wanna get better armor than crimson rage).

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or Cigs. But none of those skills were available to me at the point I stopped playing. Many of those do sound a lot better than meditate.

[Ruquion]

No skills worth ranking?
At L15, you should have access to skills like Shield Mastery, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Heavy Stander, Guard, Strength Mastery, etc.
You'd also need rD Combat Mastery for Smash Mastery later on

[TA]

This is a really bad idea, don't do this. Especially now with the token system. @_@