Thunder, Blaze, or Golem?

[rinaek]

I have r1 WM, I've just reach r1 Ice Spear, and I have r6 Thunder. I also have enough int to reach max magic balance. I also have no alchemy skills of any sort.

Due to mana cost, I hardly ever use Thunder or Ice Spear, only when rafting and as last ditch attempts when mainstreams missions go wrong.

Should I spend AP on ranking Thunder to 1, start training Golem Transmutation, or save it for Blaze?

Thunder seems to be the skill that every mage relies on heavily, but is also too mana-heavy to use regularly.
Golems seem to be more practical, as high ranked Stone Golems are dirt cheap and do decent damage, but training it looks painful.
As for Blaze, from the videos I've seen, it's powerful enough, but is the mana cost low enough to use all the time?

Thanks.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I have -800 CP worth of gear, so CP is not a problem at all.

[EndlessDreams]

Training Golem will definitely keep you busy for a very long time. By the time you get to r1, you will have the extra AP to get Blaze or Thunder.

[Yogurticecream]

Golem sucks without ranking Alchemy Mastery, so Alchemy Mastery is a must if you want to do golem or any other alchemy for that matter. (since it also adds crystal-making successes and that is really helpful)

I can't speak for Blaze, since I don't know whether any changes are implemented yet over here.

[Cucurbita]

Thunder has cp training.
Choice is obvious.

[Kyouriharu]

How's your melee damage? Is golem a necessity as a filler for it

[Justified]

Personally, after I finish Fireball (9) and Final Hit (A) I'll probably be saving up for Blaze.
Golem doesn't look very user friendly (I have a more active fighting style that includes running around a lot) and requires summoning crystals which can be a bother. I don't prefer Thunder, especially since I'll have the faster Ice Spear and the stronger Fireball at my disposal.

For people in other servers, I know Ice Spear + Blaze makes a pretty broken combo, does this not work for Thunder + Blaze? Is the stun finicky if used before or after the Thunderbolts land?

[Rime]

Golems have huge damage potential for little overall ap cost in preparation skills (around 330 total), but you're forced to deal with the impracticality of having to prepare/hunt golem crystals and leaving yourself open when you control your golem. If you want barrier spikes to accompany the skill, then that's an extra 100-ish ap.

Both Blaze and Thunder require around 400 ap each, as well as massive mp usuage. Like golems, each skill's potential is realized in very situational scenarios; blaze requires charge up time to be effective and thunder requires charge time to actually work. Then again, mabi is a game about exploiting each situation to its fullest, so it's probably best to just pick the skill one that best suits your specific needs.

[Justified]

I'd rather chuck the Snow Golem Crystals I find for 10-20k each. I'm not a fan of ranking a skill that's pretty much completely independent of your character. My character isn't weak enough in melee combat that I need the Golem, but not strong enough that the Golem wouldn't be a good addition. However, since it gives me no stat boosts, coupled with the whole control system, it just doesn't appeal to me.
Plus, that's a lot of AP in my mind, even ignoring the annoying skill training. The 330AP for AM and Golem is bordering on rank 2 Blaze, which is up to 6,480 damage according to the wiki. That sounds a heck of a lot more devastating to me than a Snow Golem,

[Rime]

My guildie deals around 5-6k with his critical "Golem Smash!" on most hard-level mobs when he uses snow golems at rank 1 summoning and rank 9 mastery. That kind of damage is nothing to scoff at either, but I'd wager that it happens as frequently as a 6k damage blaze. The only difference might be the overall amount of resources invested in each skill and the situation.

[Drago]

Bring the THUNDAH :glare:

[Kyouriharu]

If you don't need Golem, go for Blaze. Though, as Rime said, I have witnessed the same 5-6k Smashes from the same person. Be it noted, Golem is really really hard to rank but it's fairly easy to support since Stone Missions have 100% Golem Crystal Drop Rate. I'm not even at Rank 5 and I have about 10 stacks of Snow Golems ready for it.

Blaze, on the other hand, is really easy to rank but quite difficult to support. Granted, you get more bang for you buck, but MP is still MP. Also, it has been subject to nerfing, the big one being the Ice Spear Nerf where you can't link the skill with Ice Spear. Though I'm a little skeptical on the priority, Smash to Blaze would yield the same results. I'm a little biased to Golem since I kinda need it myself but the damage is nothing to laugh at, not to mention to price of getting that much damage (assuming you already have rank 1) is something to laugh at; run Sliab's Stone Hard.

[Justified]

My guildie deals around 5-6k with his critical "Golem Smash!" on most hard-level mobs when he uses snow golems at rank 1 summoning and rank 9 mastery. That kind of damage is nothing to scoff at either, but I'd wager that it happens as frequently as a 6k damage blaze. The only difference might be the overall amount of resources invested in each skill and the situation.

Blaze can crit too, ignoring protection, for well over 10k damage. And it hits a wide area. :P


I'm a little biased to Golem since I kinda need it myself but the damage is nothing to laugh at, not to mention to price of getting that much damage (assuming you already have rank 1) is something to laugh at; run Sliab's Stone Hard.

The price of getting Blaze (assuming you already have rank 1) is also something to laugh at; buy herbs from Dunbarton. Herbs are easy to come by if I choose not to purchase them from Dunby - Chaincast Firebolt ballooning hands em out in stacks and I don't need any pots for that, but 10k a pop isn't really much to a person at my total level. Mana Potions don't really hurt my wallet much, I've been in the mage business unfunded since level 1 so I'm already used to keeping a healthy supply of potions.

I don't think the video I watched was post-nerf since he was using it after Ice Spear, but seeing as how my Ice Spear is Rank 1 that means it'll be beastly for me if we don't get it rebalanced from the start. The thing with Golem is that you're just getting a buffed stone version of yourself windmilling and smashing. Those are both tasks I can do, but yield a smaller damage output. Blaze, on the other hand, introduces a whole new element of gameplay, it gives you an ability you otherwise wouldn't have. It's not as if I've completely written off Golem (I do get stacks regularly from Sliab) though.

[Zid]

For people in other servers, I know Ice Spear + Blaze makes a pretty broken combo, does this not work for Thunder + Blaze? Is the stun finicky if used before or after the Thunderbolts land?

Ice Spear makes it easier to predict where the affected target falls to. Thunder does not. Thus, it's harder to know and control where you should launch Blaze with Thunder + Blaze.

[Kyouriharu]

100k worth of herbs is a potential 100,000 mana. Which is about 1515 fully charged Blazes which is about 9 million damage if you can nail all of them on a knockback. 1515 fully charged blazes is about 4545 seconds easily giving it the title of the highest single DPS. But this all grants about 90 damage per Mana Point.

As opposed to a Snow Golem using 20 mana doing about 3,000 damage non critical Smashes dealing 2272 Smashes in the same time it takes to do 1515 fully charged Blazes. That's about 6.8 million damage in total. Taking into an account that 4545 seconds is 13 golem summons, that's about 27,000 per Mana Point. So, in essence, summon Golem 2.7 billion damage using the same Mana that Blaze took to deal 9 million.

All in all, (yes I'm really obsessed with crunching numbers in a calculator but feel free to check my work) Blaze has larger costs in Mana compared to Golem Summoning. However, Blaze has the greatest DPS output in the game, though Golem Summoning is perhaps the cheapest skill to invest in. By no means I say Blaze is worse, I just want to alert you how much it will cost in the long run and, if you cannot support it's Mana costs, how much it can hurt your wallet. I'm getting it myself since I do have the cash.

[Syrphid]

I was excited about golem summoning when it first came out, but I've found that it's really hard to use. In a double aggro situation, I have to deal with quad aggro, but even worse than normal quad aggro, one wm isn't enough to ensure safety for my golem and me. I have to spin twice. My pet only listens to me half the time. There's lag switching between the two, esp due to not having a hotkey (wtf?) to switch control. Golem lacks any sort of ranged attacks and play dead. It just feels too clunky.

Blaze seems much more useful.

[Zyrus]

I'm ranking both. My ultimate goal is to solo every dungeon in the game without dying (or cheating). Some mobs only take melee damage and while I ranked melee skills I prefer to use my Mana Manster build from my guide to make me a tank mage (0 str from pot poisen mp 100= mp 300) so I tend to have low melee damage. So my golem can be summoned while i hide behind barrier spikes and go out to smash and kill melee only enemies. Blaze in itself is the BEST attack in game period. no other skill can do 15k crits in 4 seconds or less. and make that a AEO crit too.

[Kyouriharu]

Using Sulfur Golems, they can plow through about a third of a Lancer on Hard with Windmill. So usually aggro isn't too much of a problem for the most part. Something unique that I saw a friend do was to do N+Golem Windmill where he attacks himself, switch to his golem to Windmill and then to switch aggro. Then he takes pot shots with Smashes. It was really the darnest thing; something I'd love to learn to do.

[Majikaru]

Actually, it seems like you CAN link blaze after IS, even after the nerf. I've done it myself. Not sure why people are saying you can't though.
And yes, the video was post-nerf. Damage was way too low to not be nerf. Also, the AoE is smaller.

[Kyouriharu]

Actually, it seems like you CAN link blaze after IS, even after the nerf. I've done it myself. Not sure why people are saying you can't though.
And yes, the video was post-nerf. Damage was way too low to not be nerf. Also, the AoE is smaller.
Everyone seems to love misinforming me lately D:

Well then I say Blaze ifffffff you have the money. Or you can Rank it an never use it which is probably what I'm going to do anyways. I tend to drop wands all together for the most part manly because of evaporation.

[rinaek]

Everyone seems to love misinforming me lately D:

Well then I say Blaze ifffffff you have the money. Or you can Rank it an never use it which is probably what I'm going to do anyways. I tend to drop wands all together for the most part manly because of evaporation.

I don't understand. Does Blaze have insane mana cost? Or is it the constantly switching wands part?

From what I've seen, blaze is still extremely powerful when used with an ice wand, and with a combat wand, can be preceded by two normal attacks to count as knockdown.

[Justified]

I don't understand. Does Blaze have insane mana cost? Or is it the constantly switching wands part?

From what I've seen, blaze is still extremely powerful when used with an ice wand, and with a combat wand, can be preceded by two normal attacks to count as knockdown.

It has a mana cost of 66 at Rank 1 fully charged. Still less than advanced magic, so I don't see it as a problem.
And you can normal attack with an Ice Wand as well.

Either way, I'm pretty convinced that Blaze beats out Golem if you have the gold to learn and support it, regardless of how powerful your melee combat is. After all, it does have more hype from foreign servers and a ton of nerfs speaking out for how strong it is, while the same isn't said for Golem.

[Yogurticecream]

Actually, it seems like you CAN link blaze after IS, even after the nerf. I've done it myself. Not sure why people are saying you can't though.
And yes, the video was post-nerf. Damage was way too low to not be nerf. Also, the AoE is smaller.
It's either:

1. we were misinformed and only the damage was nerfed

2. blaze/icespear continuous chain isn't allowed (or we are misinformed again)

I don't have blaze for the sole reason that I'm not going to rank up magic mastery too early, so I can't test it out.

(Sometimes I wonder if something is overhyped or so, because I felt it certainly was when there was a discussion on Spark going around on the older forums.)

[Kyouriharu]

Well since Ice Spear and Blaze go hand in hand, that's a nice 98 Mana if you're a human, 86 as an elf. That's a lot of Mana for a spammy skill. Advanced magic is used primarily as a support, Blaze is not, it's the Windmill of Magic. So if you have 66-98 Mana to blow every so often, then sweet. Not to mention, from further study with the videos, it you won't nail that 6k all the time, and you won't hit it at all if you don't have 600 int. Me, having 350 int, will give me a 4340 max knockback damage according to this formula:
50(Explosion Damage Multipler)(100+Int/3)(Wand Bonus/10)

This is still amazing damage. But I still find Golem to be more convenient, especially with such a small price tag. If anything Thunder is over-hyped when using it for rafting-... I mean Blaze is a pretty good skill but you shouldn't completely ignore Golem Summoning.

[Justified]

You don't always have to use Ice Spear though, you could always N+Blaze I guess. And I could see myself using it in a party with somebody else Windmilling, given we can syngerize well enough. I can't really say much just from watching videos, I learn better by actual experience.

If you think about Advanced Magic as it is now, 66MP for a fully charged 1,333 non-KB Blaze is still pretty decent.
Thunder will take 7 seconds, use 70MP, and deal up to 1,250.
600 Int is pretty a high goal, though 500 seems reasonably within bounds for a mage.

[Zyrus]

Adv magic is not support if your a mage. Ask any of my guildies if I am supporting them or if the melee they are doing is supporting my magic? Blaze is so much more efficient than the adv magics that its ridiculas. Its as fast as IS 1 charge faster than thunder 1 charge. Does more damage than all the other magics. I doubt I'll cast many thunders or fireballs once I have r1 blaze. Its that good. (KR test server tested)

[Kyouriharu]

Peaca, support Thunders. Yarp. I'm one of the guild mages (well, perfect trybrd) and I can't find proper use for magic beyond that. MP always pricey, and I miss spending 1mil worth of MP from Pierrick and having that last a month. I mean, 10k for a stack of herbs, really? Then again, everyone says I'm a penny pincher (though if I wasn't I wouldn't be where I am but that's a different story *cough*)

Ice Spear is a viable main mage weapon, Thunder makes a mild DPS skill but it's true strength is MP efficiency at 5 charges, I usually thought any less than 4 charges with Thunder is a waste of it's potential. Blaze is THE DPS skill. But like I said, MP MP MP.