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Thread: Magic Weapons: Red vs. Blue Special Upgrades

  1. #1
    Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas's Avatar
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    Magic Weapons: Red vs. Blue Special Upgrades

    1. Introduction
    Magic is unlike any other skillset in Mabinogi, in the sense of the uniqueness of its damage calculation. Unlike the simple multipliers of classical skills, magic damage calculation involves magic attack coefficients, base damage, full charge damage bonus, and masteries which vary from spell to spell. With the existence of these factors, the effectiveness of blue versus red special upgrades will also vary from spell to spell, which will be covered in this thread.
    For the sake of simplicity, I will be using a spreadsheet with these underlying formula to calculate the breakpoint in which average damage of r6 surpasses s6.

    Blue - Step 6:
    S6 Damage = {([base damage] + ([magic attack coefficient] * [matk + 84])) * [mastery bonus] * [full charge with bonus if applicable]}

    S6 Average Damage = {(S6 Damage * 0.7) + (S6 Damage * 2.5 * 0.3)}

    Red - Step 6:
    R6 Damage = {([base damage] + ([magic attack coefficient] * [matk])) * [mastery bonus] * [full charge with bonus if applicable]}

    R6 Average Damage = {(R6 Damage * 0.7) + (R6 Damage * 3.12 * 0.3)}

    *Magic Weapon Mastery and Bolt Mastery will be added on mastery bonus multiplicatively.
    **Mastery titles, mastery reforges, hebona set effect, ect. will be disregarded, but normally will stack additively to their respective masteries. Combo cards will also be ignored.
    ***Balance will be assumed to be 100%.
    ****All spells + masteries are assumed to be rank 1.


    The “R6>S6 MATK” will list my results for each spell, which represents the MATK at which average damage of red special upgrade at step 6 surpasses average damage of blue upgrades at step 6, without including the matk from blue upgrades.

    2. Bolt Magic

    i. Icebolt

    Base Damage: 80
    MATK Coefficient: 0.4
    Full Charge Multiplier: 1
    R6>S6 MATK: 455

    ii. Lightning Bolt

    Base Damage: 150
    MATK Coefficient: 0.6
    Full Charge Multiplier: 1.26 (post renovation)
    R6>S6 MATK: 405

    iii. Firebolt

    Base Damage: 120
    MATK Coefficient: 0.5
    Full Charge Multiplier: 6.5
    R6>S6 MATK: 415
    (Max damage gained from Battlefield Overture, ego fire wand, enchants, etc. get added to the damage of Firebolt, so the true breakpoint is lower. Ratio of damage gained is ~0.82 max damage point per MATK.)

    3. Intermediate Magic

    i. Ice Spear

    Base Damage: 240
    MATK Coefficient: 1.4
    Full Charge Multiplier: 6.5
    R6>S6 MATK: 485

    ii. Thunder

    Base Damage: 400
    MATK Coefficient: 2.1
    Full Charge Multiplier: 6
    R6>S6 MATK: 465

    iii. Fireball

    Base Damage: 2400
    MATK Coefficient: 12
    Full Charge Multiplier: 1
    R6>S6 MATK: 455

    4. Advanced Magic

    i. Hailstorm

    Base Damage: 300
    MATK Coefficient: 3.2
    Full Charge Multiplier: 6.25
    R6>S6 MATK: 562

    ii. Meteor Strike

    Base Damage: 16200
    MATK Coefficient: 30
    Full Charge Multiplier: 1
    R6>S6 MATK: 115

    iii. Lightning Rod

    Base Damage: 465
    MATK Coefficient: 12
    Full Charge Multiplier: 3
    R6>S6 MATK: 617

    5. Other Spells

    i. Blaze

    MATK Coefficient: 60.75*
    R6>S6 MATK: 655
    *Blaze does not actually have a matk coefficient of that magnitude, but for the sake of calculations, blaze damage without blaze damage gloves is (MATK * 60.75) at r1 blaze, fully charged with full knockdown. It is essentially the effective coefficient which includes all other base factors.

    ii. Shockwave

    Base Damage: 400
    MATK Coefficient: 5
    Full Charge Multiplier: 1
    R6>S6 MATK: 575


    6. Conclusion
    The breakpoints for red upgrades to surpass blue upgrades are relatively high, and have an average of 493 Magic Attack (excluding Meteor Strike and Blaze). With this in mind, it is safe to say that the majority of mages would find blue upgrades to be much more beneficial in terms of average damage.

    I want to say this one more time, just in case someone misunderstood. The numbers that I calculated are for average damage, not just crit or just normal. Even if you do not hit the breakpoint, your red critical damage may surpass blue's, but that doesn't mean that reds are better overall.

    Extra Section: Practicality
    A friend brought up the practicality regarding my numbers for r6 vs s6 breakpoints. His tested values didn't match.
    As far as I can tell, the calculated values will be slightly different than practical values because I omitted many factors like magic protection, magic defense, and balance (if it even exists for magic). My numbers are not completely accurate, because certain factors will vary from situation to situation, however, the break points listed above are accurate enough to be used as reference points though.
    Let's take protection and defense into account. For instance, say a hypothetical monster has 50 magic defense and 20% reduction from magic protection. Assume that a hypothetical spell does 500 on s6 critical, and 600 on r6 critical.
    S6 Damage: (500-50)*.8 = 360 ||| Damage lost: 28%
    R6 Damage: (600-50)*.8 = 440 ||| Damage lost: 26.7%

    More damage is lost with lower critical damage (blue) than with higher critical damage (red) percentage-wise. Therefore, red is more beneficial in certain cases than blue. It will vary from mission to mission, but the general trend of higher defense and protection are in higher difficulties, and with that said, the actual practical break points will vary more in higher difficulties. In another case, using r6, non-crit damage is lower than s6 non-crit, percentage loss in damage will also be different to reflect that. Other times, monsters have elemental affinities or spells will not hit for its highest damage.


    Special thanks to Mabinogi World Wiki for coefficients, base damage and images, and to Nation's KR team for renovation data.
    Feel free to add or correct anything, and thanks for reading!
    Last edited by Kelvas; 04-11-2016 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    If Int is hard-capped at 1500, then that's 300 base MA, so with capped Int you'd have to have to have over 100 (at minimum) MA from enchants/reforges/upgrades/wands for the break.

    ... I'm starting to think that maybe something broke (equation imbalance) during one of the updates that affected magic and they didn't notice?

  3. #3
    Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas the shadow hero Kelvas's Avatar
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    298 from stats
    90 from titles
    80+24/44 from reforges
    12 langu circlet
    magic weapon crafting bonus
    weapon upgrades
    Insignificant enchants


    It's possible to hit some of the breakpoint but it's difficult.
    Last edited by Kelvas; 02-09-2015 at 03:42 PM.

  4. #4
    Mabination User steevosson has just left the soul stream
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    Thanks for the nice sharing i appreciated your work good job i like your post

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    Mabination User DonaldTheMage has just left the soul stream DonaldTheMage's Avatar
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    I prefer Blue ups considering they add straight to the magic attack pool instead of chance in crits.

  6. #6
    ORANGES?! Citrusjuice the succubus slayer
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    so... I made my Merlin's blue. Is that right or am I crazy

  7. #7
    Grandmaster Defenestrator Fracture the skillful Fracture the skillful Fracture the skillful Fracture the skillful Fracture the skillful Fracture the skillful Fracture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citrusjuice View Post
    so... I made my Merlin's blue. Is that right or am I crazy
    Well it's almost definitely better for any magic you do with them, while likely being worse for melee attacking you do with them.
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  8. #8
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    Merlins use 1-handed red upgrades and 2-handed blues, so the cutoff is ~550 damage for them.
    Same with Shurikens and some other weapons that have gimped red upgrades.

  9. #9
    Mabination User JamesCook16 the golem slayer with a single blow JamesCook16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citrusjuice View Post
    so... I made my Merlin's blue. Is that right or am I crazy
    Im gunna say yes your crazy because IIRC Blue Merlin's contribute to max dmg for Melee and don't contribute to magic attack in anyway.
    My Pet ^

  10. #10
    Mabination User tanino has just left the soul stream tanino's Avatar
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    This guide lacks a very very important part when it comes to bolt magic to the very least,
    The add in value of Max Attack from Enchants and Buffs.
    8 Max From Enchants/Buffs = 10 Magic Attack pretty much, at least when it comes to Firebolt, meaning you could by far be breaking the break-even point for Firebolt(and other bolts) even if you only have 300 Magic Attack.

    So if you have like 200 max from enchants and similar sources, that's similar to 160 MA. Then imagine you have 1000+ character screen damage with your wand and you get a 50% bfo, that'd be similar to gaining 400 magic attack.
    tanino [Alexina]

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