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Thread: Some data on firebolt damage

  1. #11
    the noob ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman is a Nation Alchemist ironwoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuronogami View Post
    my main curiosity was how much I loose out by switching to max titles (in the event that I wanted to FH) is fairly clear.
    Still not a complete test done, as if you wanted to recreate the scenario where you would ideally be using FH along with Firebolt, then you would be using a max damage set. In that case, no, it's not that clear. You compared how much damage you lose with the switch of titles from having no gear, which clearly won't be the case with relevant firebolt and FH users. All you showed was the damage difference between max damage additive and MA additive with no other condition, with the titles not really being the same calibre (Meteor Strike Master ALO Asuna vs. Whatever you used 26 max damage, which we know is not the best max damage title you're using. If you're using titles to compare, at least use the best of each category).

    People really shouldn't be replying "oh, but I firebolt with no gear!" We're talking about relevant firebolt damage and uses. People with no relevant gear (regardless of if your focus is on MA or Max) simply won't do much firebolt damage and this is a no brainer. I'm not calling for end game max damage gears like mine, but I am calling for a relevant test, where we can expect most players to have some conditions. That includes basic enchants like Encore Camo, Solo Camo, Dexterity, etc. These enchants are not hard to get, even for lazy players.

    Quote Originally Posted by koishi-sempai View Post
    Somewhat relevant:

    Code:
    Dakimakurin - Today at 4:42 PM
    have they fixed the huge trans bug?
    that wm range is ridiculous
    thank you based mabidata http://puu.sh/pzPPn/cd3c16dc40.png
    
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:15 PM
    reversing firebolt's damage formula is so boring
    Daeran - Today at 6:37 PM
    lol
    i mean i did all this like 3 years ago, i wish i still had my calcs
    though i think back then i was calcing the bolt bonuses wrong
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:43 PM
    I'm just wondering where damage enchants get applied, everything else is right, but adding in str and max damage is messing it up
    Daeran - Today at 6:43 PM
    so
    basically
    from what i gather
    ego wand max gets added directly to firebolt base damage
    so if your ego is 115 max
    your firebolts are 235 base
    that's how i presume it works at this time based on my calculations and talks from long ago
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:44 PM
    yes, that's right
    Daeran - Today at 6:45 PM
    enchants
    are added to firebolt base damage
    at about .4 ratio
    so basically the (base damage + [matk * .5]) would add that ratio
    so (base damage + [matk * .5] + [bonus enchant max * .4]
    now
    here's the thing
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:46 PM
    and for max dmg it'd be 
    [(max dmg * bfo) * .4] or?
    Daeran - Today at 6:46 PM
    bonus enchant max includes max damage gained from battlefield overture
    so let's say you have
    1200 max with wand equipped
    you overture for 50%
    that adds 600 *.4 to bonus enchant max
    so 240 i believe
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:47 PM
    mk, thank you
    Daeran - Today at 6:47 PM
    trying to figure out how chips figure in too
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:48 PM
    it's bfo+chip
    Daeran - Today at 6:48 PM
    i though chip was 1.2
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:48 PM
    it's (1+bfo+chip)
    Daeran - Today at 6:48 PM
    okay gotcha
    i thought it was a seperate multiplier
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:49 PM
    nah, they're both in that part of the buff for applicable skills
    Daeran - Today at 6:49 PM
    devcat i think intentionally tries not to have too many straight multiplicative damage sources in order to keep things from getting too crazy
    at least since enlightenemnt
    so where we are right now is
    assuming someone sitting at 1200 max as well as with 430ish MATK (1500 int + 90 from Meteor ALO Asuna + 20 MATK + 24 from accs firebolt, bolt 20 headgear, and hebona set you're looking at (235 + (2.5 * Firebolt Reforge Level) + 240 + 215) * (1 + 1.5 + .35 + .10 + .15 + .04 + [combo card pct]) x 6.5x(edited)
    aslo i think there's a 5 base damage wand bonus in there too
    Dakimakurin - Today at 6:55 PM
    yeah
    Daeran - Today at 6:56 PM
    i have 18 so we'll use mine for the sake of argument, and we'll plug in .5 for the combo car
    so (45 + 235 + 240 + 215) = 735 * (1+1.5 + .35  + .10 + .15 + .04 + .5) = 3.64
    Daeran - Today at 7:00 PM
    735 x 3.64 2675.4 x 6.5 gives you 17390.1
    crits would be 43475.25
    but idk because
    highest recorded FB damage is about 10k higher
    but then you can probably get more than 1200 max with a wand
    Dakimakurin - Today at 7:03 PM
    highest fb's are 70k-ish (which is probably a multitude of double rolled gears)
    Daeran - Today at 7:03 PM
    well you could get even more if you go MATK Firebolt but
    for practical combat cs is so much better
    triple roll is the dream though
    i'm sure someone in korea has that
    Dakimakurin - Today at 7:04 PM
    yeah, I think 80~90 is the highest for damage showoff's
    Daeran - Today at 7:04 PM
    I feel like I messed up my calc at some point...
    The chip bonus is 1.2, first added to the character damage that you see, but then it also amplifies the BFO by 1.2, so it's not BFO + chip as you have it there. The damage that you'd see amplified is max damage bonus * 1.2 * BFO * 1.2.
    Last edited by ironwoman; 06-21-2016 at 06:08 PM.

  2. #12
    Elvs gud! Rite guise? Esileruf is a friend of Nora Esileruf is a friend of Nora Esileruf is a friend of Nora Esileruf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuronogami View Post
    I may do this at a later date but for the time being I won't be however if the goal is to purely test how much difference the max does. Have 0 max damage (0 str + hamster set) to reduce your max to 0~0 with a wand equipped but leaving your magic attack alone testing that then equipping something which gives a bit of max to see how much is added.

    It's not a hard line formula but my main point to things is to gauge the difference and how much of a difference things are. It's worth testing and I probably will when I get around to it but since my main curiosity was how much I loose out by switching to max titles (in the event that I wanted to FH) is fairly clear.
    Max from strength = nothing
    So that's thrown out to begin with unless you're using BFO, then that's a max * BFO% * .4
    Matk is always 2 matk = 1 firebolt damage.

    End coeff with heb/circ/ALO is 6.5 * (1 + .15(fire) + .15(bolt) + 1.5(MWM) + .15(Hebona) + .2(Bolt mastery) + .02(ALO)) = 3.17 * 6.5 = 20.605 multiplier.

    With just masteries it ends up being 2.8. Most people don't get much past 3.0 because making a heb set gimps you in some ways. Attack speed enhance is a pain, can't use the fancy new pierce robe or g20 sets. Only options are getting mana reduction with karis+enchants or using langu armor+enchants for attack increase. Which ends up gimping your damage further(Hawk and Baron aren't the best enchants for damage).

    Anyways. It ends up being that 2.5 enchant damage = 18~20 firebolt damage, and 2 matk = 18~20 firebolt damage. Your maximum amount of matk in a set is ~60 and gimps your max damage to hell. A solid max damage set runs around 100. This is 30 vs 40. Simple math in the end, and remember that max damage enchants echo the BFO so add in for a standard 40% a bonus 16 firebolt max from the additional 40 max. 30 vs 56.

    Matk enchants really only matter if you're doing LR or Blaze, as neither benefit from BFO/max damage. So 9/10 using just your max damage gear does wonders for firebolt. If you're a nutcase like me you specialize in this and are built to abuse it to the limit(heb set, Viv reforges, Mana reduction set effect, etc.)

    In NA there is no way in seventh hell while FH is up that you as a firebolter can match that. I've tried, I've done the math, I've even used Rynn's stupid good firebolts under similar conditions w/o BFO and w/ Viv. You just can't match it and in cases where brio shear is involved(BD, Duke) its just not able to keep up. However from the downtime of ~50 seconds, your firebolt wont actually stop. Additionally, FH/Bash outdo firebolt in boss situatons, but are rather lackluster in most shadow mission/extended battle situations. See: Brio shear. KR doesn't have that much of a disparity, but brio shear turnabout still exists and so long as the situation isn't hazardous for FH(ADV HS gimmicky bullshit, High damage reduction, massive amounts of walking), FH>Firebolt in a good portion of relevant content. Rabbie Phantasm is dangerous enough that Master of Spellwalk is considered a good idea and FH is probably suicide.

    I did a garbageload of theorycrafting, refining the process, the works, Rynn's thread did wonders to help. My main point is that unless you're using BFO the ego's average damage is still higher or equal to a step6 tribolt, and likely gives a step7 a run for its money. Viv Reforges are stupid broken even in NA. They're worse in KR.

    TL;DR: In most circumstances you're better of with max damage and max damage titles. Limit Breaker/Merlin(or the fancy new free title) if you're REALLY in need of that dank matk, otherwise go damage or go bard/utility like I do. I'm a professional elf scum firebolter and my 2nd title is almost always ALO Asuna or starlet, and my main title cycles between BFO/Viv/Maestro/Snap Cast Master/Spellwalk Master/Hydra Master. I haven't touched Blood master in months, I don't get Girg Slayer because VHM might as well be anti-elf, and Limit breaker is a waste of a heroic stone for me. I don't even have Meteor Strike Master as I'll likely never really use it.
     :^)

  3. #13
    Mabination User kuronogami the noob elemental master kuronogami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esileruf View Post
    Max from strength = nothing
    So that's thrown out to begin with unless you're using BFO, then that's a max * BFO% * .4
    Matk is always 2 matk = 1 firebolt damage.

    End coeff with heb/circ/ALO is 6.5 * (1 + .15(fire) + .15(bolt) + 1.5(MWM) + .15(Hebona) + .2(Bolt mastery) + .02(ALO)) = 3.17 * 6.5 = 20.605 multiplier.

    With just masteries it ends up being 2.8. Most people don't get much past 3.0 because making a heb set gimps you in some ways. Attack speed enhance is a pain, can't use the fancy new pierce robe or g20 sets. Only options are getting mana reduction with karis+enchants or using langu armor+enchants for attack increase. Which ends up gimping your damage further(Hawk and Baron aren't the best enchants for damage).

    Anyways. It ends up being that 2.5 enchant damage = 18~20 firebolt damage, and 2 matk = 18~20 firebolt damage. Your maximum amount of matk in a set is ~60 and gimps your max damage to hell. A solid max damage set runs around 100. This is 30 vs 40. Simple math in the end, and remember that max damage enchants echo the BFO so add in for a standard 40% a bonus 16 firebolt max from the additional 40 max. 30 vs 56.

    Matk enchants really only matter if you're doing LR or Blaze, as neither benefit from BFO/max damage. So 9/10 using just your max damage gear does wonders for firebolt. If you're a nutcase like me you specialize in this and are built to abuse it to the limit(heb set, Viv reforges, Mana reduction set effect, etc.)

    In NA there is no way in seventh hell while FH is up that you as a firebolter can match that. I've tried, I've done the math, I've even used Rynn's stupid good firebolts under similar conditions w/o BFO and w/ Viv. You just can't match it and in cases where brio shear is involved(BD, Duke) its just not able to keep up. However from the downtime of ~50 seconds, your firebolt wont actually stop. Additionally, FH/Bash outdo firebolt in boss situatons, but are rather lackluster in most shadow mission/extended battle situations. See: Brio shear. KR doesn't have that much of a disparity, but brio shear turnabout still exists and so long as the situation isn't hazardous for FH(ADV HS gimmicky bullshit, High damage reduction, massive amounts of walking), FH>Firebolt in a good portion of relevant content. Rabbie Phantasm is dangerous enough that Master of Spellwalk is considered a good idea and FH is probably suicide.

    I did a garbageload of theorycrafting, refining the process, the works, Rynn's thread did wonders to help. My main point is that unless you're using BFO the ego's average damage is still higher or equal to a step6 tribolt, and likely gives a step7 a run for its money. Viv Reforges are stupid broken even in NA. They're worse in KR.

    TL;DR: In most circumstances you're better of with max damage and max damage titles. Limit Breaker/Merlin(or the fancy new free title) if you're REALLY in need of that dank matk, otherwise go damage or go bard/utility like I do. I'm a professional elf scum firebolter and my 2nd title is almost always ALO Asuna or starlet, and my main title cycles between BFO/Viv/Maestro/Snap Cast Master/Spellwalk Master/Hydra Master. I haven't touched Blood master in months, I don't get Girg Slayer because VHM might as well be anti-elf, and Limit breaker is a waste of a heroic stone for me. I don't even have Meteor Strike Master as I'll likely never really use it.
    I already know someone who has a full vivace set who'll most likely be running with quite frequently. I'm not really worried about being utility. I'm just trying to figure out what things will optimize damage the best.

    I wasn't trying to combat final hit. I was trying to see how much I would potentially loose in damage by using max titles (so that I could final hit while firebolting).

    My next focus will probably be bolt master vs meteor master.

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