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Thread: Suggestion: Overall Skill Rebalance

  1. #1
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    Suggestion: Overall Skill Rebalance

    Overall Skill Rebalance

    Mabinogi is an old MMO that's been under development (more or less) for many years. With the changing landscape of games in general and the multiple changes in developers/directors, a lot of Mabinogi's skills aren't well-balanced (even with multiple targeted attempts).

    Balanced skillsets should provide choice. Multiple skillsets should all be viable decisions with different upsides, downsides, and capabilities. Sometimes existing skillsets or meta will need to be changed to make changes in other skills viable or attractive alternatives once they're functioning properly.

    In this thread I'll go over every skill available and discuss their downsides (or broken aspects) as well as suggesting changes/fixes to many of the game's skill-centered problems. I will attempt to be as objective as I can, but feedback and suggestions are welcomed. I plan to post this for more feedback on the official forums after polishing it up too.

    A few things to note...
    1. I'm covering skills available to humans because it's where the majority of my experience is, feel free to chime in on the elf/giant skills I didn't touch.

    2. Many skills need rebalanced training. A major part of Mabinogi gameplay is skill training because many skills require you to put yourself in specific scenarios or accomplish specific objectives in order to train them. Unfortunately a number of skillsets were released with horrible training. When Grapple Shot at rank A is slower than Windmill at rank 5, there's a major design problem.

    3. The skill order is from my skill lists and focuses on use so excuse the ordering.


    - Life
    The art of being a village NPC in an MMO. Life skills are the most varied within a skill tab, and in general either need minor changes, or additions to crafting in general to be more desired skills. Wearing the master title for a production skill should also increase the minimum roll for goods. All production skills should have an entrust option (like with Enchant), given the rarity and value of many materials nowadays.

     


    - Archery
    The art of remotely installing new pointy sticks into somebody. Bows in general are weaker than comparable melee weapons across the board, so some skill changes could be used instead. In general, ranged attacks need to calculate their range from the outside of a hitbox, not the center. With the way it is now, targeting the center can often put you within melee distance on really large enemies.

     


    - Lance
    The art of making people feel like they got hit by a truck. Lances have unique mechanics, but unfortunately the minimum attack range doesn't work well. Mabi has lots of position lag issues, and since these aren't getting fixed (being inherent in how the game operates), the minimum distance to attack with lances should be removed because it does nothing but unfairly hinder players who use lances.

     


    - Combat
    The art of sticking the pointy thing into the squishy thing that bleeds. Many combat skills affect other talents, so suggestions will vary.

     


    - Cleric / Healing
    The art of using fartsparkles for good deeds. Clerics need some way to produce or sanctify goods for use, the easiest way would be for Clerics to have some way of producing Holy Water, perhaps only while under the talent.

     


    - Magic
    The art of powering up like you're in DBZ, then hitting them with magic instead. Charging up and then firing heavily-damaging skills, works well overall but everything could use attention to detail. One major issue is that speed upgrades on wands/staves seem to do little to nothing, compared to speed increases from other sources. This needs to be looked at.

     


    - Construct Alchemy
    The art of making little clay horses and then losing your mom to an unknown illness. Intended for support and to be used alongside life skills, lots of changes could be used here.

     


    - Battle Alchemy
    The art of using magical science theory to cause proven physical trauma.

     


    - Fighter
    The art of punching things until they stop moving. While the skillset was designed to be single-target initially (as balance against melee), the offensive options for it are limited and repetitive and some of the nerfing needs to be undone. Counterattack should have normal stamina usage and Windmill should have a normal radius with a fighter setup. Counter Punch should be a normal skill with two more skills added to make a third full chain to help reduce repetition. Activating chain skills (2 and 3) also does not preload them, refusing to use them if you don't already have a target, and normally choosing an enemy uses a normal attack instead... this needs to be fixed.

     


    - Music
    The art of using concussive or compressive force to bend the will of others to your means. Generally consisting of buffs that players can swap to an instrument for, established bards with high-rank singing can buff barehanded (though missing instrument upgrade buffs). One major annoyance is, when performing songs for entertainment, you cannot use buff skills for perfect playing while on a sitting instrument. This should be changed to avoid unrequired wear and tear on score scrolls.

     


    - Puppetry
    The art of using the uncanny valley in an offensive manner. Puppetry is potentially useful and has various crowd/AOE options, but is simply too slow and cumbersome for normal use. The player and puppet should have less restrictions on moving around (higher max distance), the puppet should move faster, and a skill for the player and puppet to swap places should be added. The skills, overall, need to simply be faster and have less down time after attacks and the skill suggestions below will all assume that the skills perform faster. You should be able to pick up items while controlling a puppet if the item is below you. Also the cooldown bug needs to be fixed.

    If the skills functioned a bit more differently depending on which puppet was summoned, it'd add more variety to the skillset as well. Imagine if Act 1 hit and stunned the enemy when using the Pierrot, but shoved the enemy backwards instead if used with the Collosus, for example.

     


    - Dual Gun
    The art of making pew pew noises until stuff gives up and falls over. Has one or two useful skills, with the rest gimped in usability. One thing that always annoyed me, though, is how Dual Guns turn you into a ballerina the moment you pick them up. Even basic skills like Counterattack suddenly become all flippy and flashy. I think that each type of skill should have three animations. A more awkward/simple one at low ranks, a normal one at medium ranks, then the flashy animations at high ranks. Dual Gun Mastery could affect the animation overrides for other skills.

     


    - Ninja
    The art of convincing people you didn't cut them when you really did. Has a lot of unique and control skills that could be pretty useful... if people could train them reasonably. Also can we please get Ninja's KR updates?

     


    - Hidden
    The art of getting peanut butter in somebody's chocolate.

     


    - Crusader
    The art of using the power of friendship. While mainly intended for raids, the skills could actually be pretty useful elsewhere. It's annoying to respec the points any time you're on a different role, so a "max points" button would help.

     


    54,000 characters later: owmyhands.
    Last edited by Rydian; 08-11-2016 at 09:23 AM.

  2. #2
    French Fries Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann
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    Right, the main thing with the Alchemical and Eemental masteries is how Watercannon's and Flameburst's damage formulas work, the masteries would work fine if they they remove WC's and FB's useless "Additional Damage" and either apply the bonuses to to the base damage or final damage.
     nexon math pls
    Last edited by Tropa; 08-05-2016 at 06:56 PM.

  3. #3
    Mabination User Daakun the aspiring sailor Daakun the aspiring sailor Daakun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydian View Post
    Shockwave
    Design: Defensive skill for mages, sends out a pulse of damage to hurt and stop enemies at the cost of a percentage of MP.
    Reality: Works for self-defense, does acceptable damage, but costs too much MP. It actually penalizes higher-ranked mages because it eats more MP for them than others. There should not be a downside to higher stats like that.
    Changes: The MP cost should be flat amounts like normal spells. 30 MP per use too low?
    Bah, not even. It locks you in place for longer than it stuns.
    It's a secret to everybody.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tropa View Post
    Right, the main thing with the Alchemical and Eemental masteries is how Watercannon's and Flameburst's damage formulas work, the masteries would work fine if they they remove WC's and FB's useless "Additional Damage" and either apply the bonuses to to the base damage or final damage.
     nexon math pls
    How would you word that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daakun View Post
    Bah, not even. It locks you in place for longer than it stuns.
    I don't know how it used to behave, but nowadays it's a knockdown and you get control before they get back up.






    Changes to the suggestions so far...

    - Suggested tailoring manuals be available from fishing.
    - Added the suggestion for a minigame to carpentry.
    - Added the suggestion for Cleric to be able to make Holy Water.
    - Added the suggestion to change the gold-based training of Synthesis.
    - Changed Vivace to mention attack speed buff too.

    - Clarified that flour purchases should be available from normal NPCs for gold.
    - Clarified "container" stats on Taming to be HP/MP/SP.
    - Clarified that egg thing that higher-tier eggs can be replacements in copies of existing recipes with higher stats.
    - Clarified Lance Charge's use of "finish".
    - Clarified Blaze's targeting suggestiong, using Focused Fist as the example.

    - Typos and more typos.
    Last edited by Rydian; 08-06-2016 at 05:20 AM.

  5. #5
    Konrad the dragon knight Konrad the dragon knight Konrad the dragon knight Konrad the dragon knight Konrad's Avatar
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    That's a great wall of text there and I promise I'll read it all eventually, but who's that suggestion aimed at? Because Nexon doesn't care, developers don't know English and players can't do anything despite willing to help. At this point, the only solution I see is trying to make a similar game on our own, which still is very unlikely.

  6. #6
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    I'll give in a few cents regarding archery considering my archery status in game.

    Archery isn't a bad skill set. In fact, it still serves the purpose it's supposed to fill: a long range attack that is safe (in fact, the longest attack possible). Its biggest flaws? Misses, which is often dictated by your connection as well. And this one isn't necessarily a flaw, but a problem with archery is that many people don't view it as worth it because of how much fucking resource this skill set takes, and seemingly little return. Personally, I think archery has a great return, just not for its immense costs, and it's evident in Elven archery. Not because Elven archery is bad (in fact, I think it's strong), but rather it seems like the boost you get for being an Elf and being shafted in many other things is not really that outstanding, despite you having to still invest a fuck ton.

    Personally, I think Magnum Shot needs to be buffed. It's definitely not weak, it's a strong skill, but only in the late game. I think giving 5% and 10% damage buff to Human/Elf magnum shot in relative to the skill multiplier is good, and this is to give archery users some breathing room in the earlier stages of the game, and more rewarding than it is right now to have the skill usage be more satisfied. Also, humans having 1 second cool down instead of 1.5 second would help a lot too (especially in the early game). But more importantly, the aim rate scaling with ranged attack rank would be a significant buff. It doesn't have to get the full aim attack speed that ranged attack gets, but partial is good enough and will make the skill better to use (the same can be said about crash shot).

    Crash Shot also deserves attention. Right now, the biggest problem is its effective cool down, which is worse than before dynamic combat patch. Another problem with this is that it doesn't give Elves advantage. Sure, they have better cool down early game, but what about late game? Even for humans, it's a pretty long cool down, but humans still have AoE with generally higher damage due to naturally higher max thanks to masteries, as well as higher stats in the relative AoE skill sets in general. The cool down should be 7/6 from rank F to A for Humans/Elves, 6/5 from rank 9 to 6, 5/4 for ranks 5 to 1. And as mentioned with Magnum shot, the skill should get aiming bonus from ranged attack rank.

    Last but not least, Mirage Missile and Final Shot. Mirage Missile's such an abysmal skill that you forgot to include it, but I don't blame you as I can understand why you forgot to include it. The problem with Mirage Missile is that without slow, this skill is useless, and even with slow, it's not very meaningful. So what can we do? We can make it scale better. Right now, the damage formula is Base Damage + (Int / 5 + Dex / 3). My proposed formula is this: Base Damage + Damage enchants + (Int / 3 + Dex / 3). The duration can be shortened to 20 seconds, but ticks every 2 seconds, and with each tick the damage is increased by 10% additional damage, up to 100% more damage. This should give Elf beginners early breathing room as they don't really have safe AoE clears, and able to scale this skill well into the late game with damage similar to Hydra. As for Final Shot, it's actually in a pretty good place, but needs a few tweaks. One, remove the god damn load time. After dynamic patch, I can't see why this skill has a loading time. Two, have better reforge scaling. I would even go out of the way to say have the respective reforges match that of Final Hit (or tone Final Hit's reforges/ratios down).

  7. #7
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    What sort of change, exactly, should Magnum Shot get? Aiming is an issue but it shouldn't be fast enough to be spammed with little to no cost because it's a ranged Smash equal and could unfairly pin things down too easily. Aim speeds are difficult to put into numbers... how about if magnum aimed at 75% the speed of your current rank Ranged Attack?

    Mirage Missile does need to tick a bit faster at least, 2 seconds sounds right. The increased damage is eh though, the damage adds up over time on groups and it shouldn't be too big of a percent increase of normal attacks.

    Final Shot I've got at R5 on the elf, and yes that loading time needs to be removed. I think the mac duration is low, it's 10 seconds less than Final Hit, and you spend a lot of that time loading/aiming as it is.


    - Added Mirage Missile and Final Shot suggestions.
    - Added the cooldown decrease suggestion to Crash Shot, but an even 6-4.
    - Added suggestion from Legiathan to make a "spike map" overlay sort of like how we have flight maps, but for marking where you cannot place Barrier Spikes.
    - Added suggestion from Legiathan for master titles of production skills to increase the minimum quality. Because if you're actively the master, even your quick crap will look better than the store stuff.
    - Added the suggestion to remove the restriction on treasure dungeon entry.
    - Added a suggested stat boost multiplier to Taming Wild Animals.
    - Added the suggestion for Fusion Bolt involving Icebolt to be rechargable.
    - Added the suggestion to reduce the stamina drain on Spellwalk.
    - Added the suggestion to Thunder to allow gear swapping.
    - Added a mention to once again try to fix the net effect of casting speed upgrades.
    - Added a range/depth upgrade for Bullet Storm.
    - Added a note to Counter Punch that it should always start a chain.
    - Added suggestion for Deepening Trust to restore as much as Holy Vitality.

    - Changed the Hailstorm suggestion to reduce down time and layer charge time instead of initial loading time.
    - Clarified on how Smokescreen's training could be sped up.
    Last edited by Rydian; 08-06-2016 at 09:26 PM.

  8. #8
    Mabination User bob has defeated the golden spiderling
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    Some useless opinions:

    Crafting skills: already said, needs more recipes/more useful items.
    Gathering skills: higher ranks should provide bonuses/rewards/more items to scale with the crafting counter parts.
    Fishing: Mini game needs to scale harder and have less RNG; skilled fishermen should have higher chances of getting rare items/books while afking fishing is still RNG like it is right now.
    Trans mastery: it's "fun" but why doesn't it allow players to access skills the monster and player both have? Slap some damage onto it or make dream catchers special upgradeable and this could actually be a decent offensive skill?

    Archery skills: it's in combat tab... why cant you load archery skills during combat animation e.g. counter/wm
     ??


    Hailstorm: y u no spellwalk-able and slow? It'd actually be a decent kiting skill on alban mummies.

    Battle Alchemy: some skills needs to scale and chain cylinder cd needs to go the hell down.

    Fighter: useless late game, needs defense mechanism against pings since getting pinged on first chain skill renders you useless.

    Puppetry: Puppet survivability needs a bit of scaling or buff

    Grapple shot: mobs being able to cancel the skill by hitting you renders the skill useless; needs priority, less displacement.

    Ninja: how do you call yourself a ninja if you get spotted by the entire map before hitting anything?
    damage is pretty good but the range makes the name of the skill set redundant.
    smokescreen needs massive buff while sakura abyss needs cd lowered for a skill that requires so much set up.

    Spidershot: is the trap requirement even needed? Nobody even uses this skill lol.
    Berserk: should get bonus max/min that scales off your str. Flat str is kinda useless end game.
    Counter punch: i don't even.

    Magic dampening: should just be mprot/def+ a small % magic damage reduction if it is to be used for what i think they want us to use it for.

    spike sub skills exist???

    p.s. charge minimum distance reforge exists.
    I miss my arrows so often, I can be a storm trooper...

    Also, i'd like to thank League of Legends for teaching me how to be toxic.

  9. #9
    Mabination User Honey the bear slayer at age 10 Honey's Avatar
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    "The art of getting peanut butter in somebody's chocolate."
    lol??? this thread made me giggle more than it should have. like the ideas tho

  10. #10
    French Fries Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann Tropa has transcended Tuatha Dé Danann
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rydian View Post
    How would you word that?
    What do you mean? Like how would I rewrite the damage formulas? as it stands the masteries only effect a tiny amount of damage thats not effected by Critical damage or Stack count.

    Probably like this

    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    Battle Alchemy: some skills needs to scale and chain cylinder cd needs to go the hell down.
    Having the cooldown to scale down depending on how many charges were added would be nice, instead of a solid 10 or so second everytime.

    I'd like Golden Time to decrease Chain's cooldown while active, that'd make the Golden Time title pretty sick.
    Last edited by Tropa; 08-08-2016 at 12:34 AM.

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