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Thread: The things that killed Mabinogi

  1. #11
    the noob ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolzor View Post
    On Ironwoman's points:

    A: It definitely could be better, but honestly most support teams barely know how their game works. On the plus side, they actually want to make us happy even though they suck. It hurts that they don't know where we come from, but I think what hurts more is stuff like their constant crusade against mods, where if I've been told correctly, some other countries specifically allow modding.

    B)This definitely hurts. A lot of the community is very cliquey, many are trolls, many are elitists that deliberately try to screw over newbies, and when reporting an NX selling scammer on the forums gets *you* banned, there is a definite problem. It doesn't help that in a "p2w" game there's no system like PLEX either that lets us trade safely.

    C)I wouldn't necessarily say it's the NA exclusive ones, as I've heard KR had some pretty messed up stuff like robes with enchants. Over-reliance on gacha and p2w type stuff is a big problem though for many players, and having stuff like Fierce accessories even exist when the best in-game obtainable accessory suffix is a measly 6 max damage makes doing content feel unrewarding. Gacha Dowras are also a problem that still bothers me, though it wouldn't bother me very much at all if they at least boosted the Celtic Dowra Ace minimum rolls so that they outclassed a cheap gacha weapon.

    Personally I'd spend more money on this game if they just charged $5 for every generation after the first 3. I'm not sure if there's enough players like me to balance that out, and f2p models are always hard to perfect, but I think it's worth examining.

    D)Agreed. Grind is a double-edged sword: if you don't have enough, there will be no sense of accomplishment and players will just leave, but Mabi has enough grind in some instances where you can ram your head against the wall for thousands of real life hours, then get frustrated and leave. In terms of gear, I think the problem is very much RNG based. As an example, even though it's horribly overpriced in the seal shop, Oblivion ES is there. I'd be much less frustrated if, for example, we got incremental rewards for more content. Like in Alban, we get a handful of runes guaranteed every run, but what if we could trade in 1,000 runes of mind for an Awakened ES or 1,000 runes of body for Heroic? That way you could still have the thrill of finding rare drops, but even the horribly unlucky people feel like they're making progress. And apply thought process to more content. Let you craft Upgrade Stones of Protection from normal stones, have dragons drop "bits" that you can craft into dragon pieces, etc. But instead, we have stuff like Bhafel Hunters that have items with 1/1,000 drop rates, that once you get the mats for, you have a 1% chance of failing, a 90% chance of getting a terrible roll, a 55% chance to destroy going for Step 7, and laters upon layers of RNG when it comes to enchants and reforges. Seeing so much RNG often makes me just feel "why bother" and then want to buy it from someone for $200 instead of hunting everything myself just to get screwed over along the way.

    On skills, a lot of the skills were designed this way to encourage cash shop purchases, but when the abundance of events starts making them less relevant, it might be time to just rethink them completely.

    E)I think this is actually one of the things keeping Mabi alive. It is definitely unintuitive, and it keeps it from ever reaching WoW levels of popularity, but being a niche MMO can be okay if it is the best MMO in that niche. And there are very few other games that work like Mabi, and many of them suck.

    There's a lot to be said for abandoning the holy trinity. You can get really unique builds and combine classes to get some cool effects. You keep all your progress on one character, instead of making different identities to try out different classes. And if you ever do get into a theoretical situation where your guild needs 8 tanks or 8 healers, you don't have to start from scratch, you keep all your gear in one spot, and you can swap back to your old style when the next content decides it needs 10 mages. There's definitely some problems with it, but overall I'd call it an asset rather than a liability.
    Things to clarify as well as correction as it doesn't seem like you understood my message correctly.

    A. Most doesn't mean Mabi should fall into this category as well. There are plenty of qualified people within the game that could easily be better support team. And I don't know where you heard that about mods, but whoever told you that is a liar. In fact, KR literally criminalizes mod writers because it's literally against the recently passed law (the law states that hacking tool used to assist games are punishable. This is largely thanks to big number of people scripting in KR LoL, and yes, Mabi's modding falls under this category). Users aren't punished heavily, but developers are. And the modding witch hunt in NA stems from this.

    C. By NA exclusive ones, I meant the items that other servers didn't have the same level of. Fierce Ribbons don't count in this one because other servers got items just as broken as those ribbons. Backbreaking ES and the unattainably high grade guns, on the other hand, are the issues. Giving out more free damages that were meant to be done with in game trials in a server that is already not that populated? Even less competitiveness.

    E. It keeps the old players, but doesn't appeal that much for newer players, who are more used to the quicker paced character progression or just game play in general that other games offer currently, as well as lack of definitive class system and lumping the whole combat meta into damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanm View Post

    @Topic There's a few things that really killed Mabi in my opinion.

    1. G16 Genesis: This was the biggest thing for me. I liked Mabi's initial combat system, and when they introduced this, it really killed a lot of love I had for the game. I liked that Mabi was unique in that it had a different style instead of just using skills, waiting for cooldowns, etc like every other MMO does. Add to the fact that mobs have the OLD combat style and we're really broken in that regard. If a mob hits you back then, you lost the fight and took some damage if it's not a multi-aggro situation. Nowadays, if something does get a hit on me, I can immediately counter/def to block/avoid the rest of their combo.

    2. Skillsets that ignore Mabi's bread and butter. I fucking LOVE gunner, it's my favorite skill set. But it, ninja, puppets, and fighter weren't really good things to add just because they ignore the basics of mabi's combat style. Fighter completely outclassed Melee back in the day and now it can't do much of anything because everyone has the insta load times and we have Bash. Puppets helped set up stuff, but mobs don't react to them any differently than the normal stuff. They just completely ignore the mobs we're so used to because they weren't made with the initial mechanics in mind to be fair and balanced.

    3. Artificial difficulty. This began kinda with Elite missions. Same mobs, just more hp/prot and shit. Nothing else really different. This is also kind of a thing with Adv HM dungeons, but each dungeon still had their own unique niche and enemies. 2/3 Lord missions were some of the only ones that didn't follow the higher hp and prot, but same AI. They had different objectives. Rabbie Phantasm is a step in the right direction, bur rather than just making some skillsets useless, I'd rather they balance them. I liked adv dungeons back then just because they all had their niches. Rabbie Adv? Don't bring range there and have some explosion resist. Rundal Adv? Fk archers and warriors, bring mages because those black ship rats are pieces of shit. Peaca? Bring EVERYTHING, because something in that damn dungeon will resist you.
    1. The problem isn't the dynamic combat, but rather mobs not being updated.

    2. Fighter actually didn't really outclass melee back in the day because Lances existed, as well as lack of AoE clear from Fighter, usually a Lance Windmill and Crash Shot were good enough. Fighter is in the position it's at currently not because of the dynamic combat patch, but because of its flawed design. Low damage scaling and lack of AoE. It really says a lot when you can reach higher damage with a Gloomy Sunday than a knuckle. Puppets are on the more outdated style as it's really used for utility now since there are better AoE options available.

    3. Alban was also a bit of a right direction in my opinion. But for there to be a true Artificial Difficulty, you would need more than rebalancing of skills. For example, handicaps (like 50% max Alban stone). But even then, the game needs more, and that's for devCat to decide.

  2. #12
    Θ ε Θ Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo has slain a prairie dragon Zeo's Avatar
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    I have two biggest complaints about Mabinogi... at least for NA version.

    1. Drop rate not being adjusted to fit in with NA Mabi's population and Nexon won't even do anything to fix the issue with drop rate so we're stuck with some items staying non-existent such as Soluna Blade or the Succubus Queen stuffs from Phantasm runs unless we see the mats and stuffs being thrown into gachapon. I mean... I can understand why the drop rate was very low for KR Mabinogi as their population are MUCH LARGER compared to NA Mabinogi which mean they have more players doing the same content thus more items are being generated even if it's a very low drop rate... but like I said... some of those items basically stayed non-existent for NA Mabi because our population are pretty small thus not enough players to do the content to actually make specific items show up (the legendary Breastplate Armor as a very rare drop from Gem Arrow Longa dungeon, anyone?)

    2. This one I have to agree with Ironwoman on... NA Mabinogi team need to be MUCH MORE strict with how they discipline the players.... lot of the bad apples never even got banned once and they just continue to harass, haze, and slander players that REALLY hurt the community. NA Mabinogi's community really sucked too. I wish NA Mabinogi would follow KR Mabinogi's step... or at least NA Maplestory where they actually discipline the players for bad behavior - they'd make a thread each time a player (the player's name is on the thread too) get banned and explained a reason why they got banned instead of leaving most of us good players wondering when they'll actually discipline the players for their behavior.
    Uhh... here's my Mabination pets? :v

  3. #13
    King of Ruin koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai's Avatar
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    @Yamn

    If we take the nostalgia goggles off, the "mabi combat system" was already broken in beta/G1. Archery and to a lesser/greater extent magic (Lesser because magic was really costly and extremely difficult to maintain, greater because even low-rank magic was absolutely busted for the content back then) already broke the "combat basics" as existed back then. The break was finally complete when Crash Shot and old Golems were released.

    (btw we should really discuss that a single skillset has been tier 1 to tier 0 for most of the game's existence, and has never NOT been tier 0 in a low latency environment)

    @Intimacy I considered BDO but honestly I dislike the gear system and the PVP focus in conjunction with said gear system. Also Daum from what my BDO friends say is pretty sketchy in its own right, but then what game company isn't.
    Last edited by koishi-sempai; 09-13-2016 at 07:42 PM.
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  4. #14
    Mabination User sakraycore the ogre slayer sakraycore's Avatar
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    @Yanm

    I was thinking of Tree of Savior, but it's got its own problems as of late and has me on the verge of quitting depending on whether or not they implement the circle reset or not.

    As for mabi's combat, the start of the downfall began when they introduced alchemy which is at G8. The golems did triviallized a lot of the older content and skillsets.

    Remember windmill grinding? Yea, you don't need to grind that if you got a r1 golem with superior windmill lol.
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  5. #15
    The Assassin Yanm the dragon knight Yanm the dragon knight Yanm the dragon knight Yanm the dragon knight Yanm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koishi-sempai View Post
    @Yamn

    If we take the nostalgia goggles off, the "mabi combat system" was already broken in beta/G1. Archery and to a lesser/greater extent magic (Lesser because magic was really costly and extremely difficult to maintain, greater because even low-rank magic was absolutely busted for the content back then) already broke the "combat basics" as existed back then. The break was finally complete when Crash Shot and old Golems were released.

    (btw we should really discuss that a single skillset has been tier 1 to tier 0 for most of the game's existence, and has never NOT been tier 0 in a low latency environment)

    @Intimacy I considered BDO but honestly I dislike the gear system and the PVP focus in conjunction with said gear system. Also Daum from what my BDO friends say is pretty sketchy in its own right, but then what game company isn't.
    Nostalgia goggles aside, I still enjoyed pre-genesis more than post-genesis. On the topic of magic and range, I can agree with that. I looked past magic more because it was hard as fuck to use, with the lack of mp pots being the main thing. Range did fuck over the combat system, that is true. And I'm not going to get into CS and all that jazz. Also, explain your whole tier 1, tier 0 stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by sakraycore View Post
    @Yanm

    I was thinking of Tree of Savior, but it's got its own problems as of late and has me on the verge of quitting depending on whether or not they implement the circle reset or not.

    As for mabi's combat, the start of the downfall began when they introduced alchemy which is at G8. The golems did triviallized a lot of the older content and skillsets.

    Remember windmill grinding? Yea, you don't need to grind that if you got a r1 golem with superior windmill lol.
    Ah, Tree of Savior. I never did bother to check out that game lol. I remember the days of golems. WMing every spike in Provocation.


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  6. #16
    Website Guy
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    The main things that killed it for me:

    1) Nexon. I quit and returned countless times but in the end it's always nexon making me leave. They are always making stupid choices, both in korea for development/direction and in NA for management and business practices.

    2) Not evolving the game engine. A game like mabi is the perfect candidate for a scenario where you keep the game data and migrate it to a new platform. A modern game engine that actually works properly. This game was made in 2002 - 2003 in Korea, now it's almost 2017 and the current dev people probably don't even know what they are working with anymore. So something like 15 years and still running the engine that was probably considered mediocre at best when it released.

    The only thing that can get me to touch mabi again at this point is for a "real" mabinogi 2.0 to be released, and by that I mean modernize the game from the ground up, while keeping all the actual content as-is and migrate all user data to the new engine. This is pretty much never going to happen and the only game I know to have ever done this is Runescape (and look how successful Runescape is).

  7. #17
    the noob ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman has tamed a desert dragon ironwoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakraycore View Post
    @Yanm

    I was thinking of Tree of Savior, but it's got its own problems as of late and has me on the verge of quitting depending on whether or not they implement the circle reset or not.

    As for mabi's combat, the start of the downfall began when they introduced alchemy which is at G8. The golems did triviallized a lot of the older content and skillsets.

    Remember windmill grinding? Yea, you don't need to grind that if you got a r1 golem with superior windmill lol.
    I'm not sure how up to date with you are with Mabinogi's contents, but golem isn't a good example to use for your argument. The golems got nerfed pretty hard shortly afterwards, and now golems don't really have a good spot in combat aspects.

    Right now, I'd say newer contents actually revived the usage of some forgotten skills. For example, Alban for extended rain casting that wasn't as valued before, Phantasm for Sand Burst, revamped dungeons for other less used AoE skills (namely puppet and in many cases crash shot). We'll see what the devs do from here now on.

  8. #18
    King of Ruin koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai has tamed a desert dragon koishi-sempai's Avatar
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    I think he means that a lot of people are attached to the notion that what makes Mabi's combat special is the "tactical rock paper scissors" style of melee combat and the way there was a sort of class balance, but then alchemy and golems came along which broke some of the old "rules" But in reality it was really easy to break, with any kind of new skillset and that's what happened. The problem is that people were attached to that old model (ESPECIALLY for pvp) so it turned people off and they've been unable to embrace the new kind of tactical gameplay which revolves around aggro management and wombo combos (though it took DevCat too long to adjust mob strength to player strength)


    The only thing that can get me to touch mabi again at this point is for a "real" mabinogi 2.0 to be released, and by that I mean modernize the game from the ground up, while keeping all the actual content as-is and migrate all user data to the new engine. This is pretty much never going to happen and the only game I know to have ever done this is Runescape (and look how successful Runescape is)
    A lot of Japanese and Koreans would have to quit before that happened. Zagex only did it because it's a Western company so it's dependent on its western players. The lights won't go off completely even in NA because Nexon is not just a publisher, it's the developer (and don't bring up EU Mabi, Nexon Europe itself was dying at the time and is 100% dead now, they even merged NA/EU servers on Maple) but we'll just passively get what Korea and Japan gets, so we'll get whatever Korea and Japan is willing to accept.
    Last edited by koishi-sempai; 09-16-2016 at 05:41 AM.
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  9. #19
    Konrad the dragon knight Konrad the dragon knight Konrad the dragon knight Konrad the dragon knight Konrad's Avatar
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    And here I am, seeing the number of players steadily increase on my server. Mabi is very much alive and doing surprisingly well - you guys make it sound a lot worse than it actually is.

  10. #20
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    Can I just say the plot is insinuatingly bad? I mean don't get me wrong, it was good up until Saga, but even then they kept throwing in a lot of characters that would eventually be long and forgotten like G9~12 cast, not to mention the Milletian is just fucking dumb. And then Genesis got rid of a lot of cutscenes in G2 that were integral to the plot, notably Ruairi waking up and meeting Triona/Morgant and it just skips to Ruairi leaving Triona's side.

    And then we have Saga. A lot of NPCs are just assholes in general, and majority of the "plot" (senseless errands) could have been entirely avoided if they weren't dicking around, Akule, Millia, and Merlin being the biggest offenders. I feel that the whole point of Saga is just to defame the Milletian.
    Oh yeah, some of the Saga 2 quests were really annoying. Aside from the massive difficulty spikes, that one final RP with Treasure Hunter had ridiculous fail measures on top of massive FPS cuts.

    Oh yeah, Samhain was a pain. One character had a good role in part 1 and was then reduced to the "all mighty teleporter", a good portion of part 2 wasn't relevant to the plot, and of course the fucking Ruairi forced loss.

    I haven't played since Alban Training Camp and past that, but I heard G20 doesn't add anything significant to the Chapter 6 plot.

    Now I just feel disgusting talking about this.
    Last edited by sans; 09-16-2016 at 09:03 PM.

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