G9S3 and G10s1

• Iyasenu wrote on 2010-04-28 15:54
  i want G10s2...
  
  but a g10s1 is fine too :<
  
  i wanna play with ores again, with metal extraction (working name?)
  
  also the removal of the need to repeat those danged cap quests!
  :kill: those got annoying.
  Alexina cannot forget me that quickly unless she has brain dama- ohwait
  
  maybe she gets fixed in G10 :p ohohoho
• Juno wrote on 2010-04-28 16:06
  Yeah...cap quests are the single most annoying thing in mabi for me.
  
  Specifically that snow rat claw quest...
  
  .-.
• Arsik wrote on 2010-04-28 16:09
  Snow Rats... not sure if they come before, or after Black Ship Rats on the Giant's hate list.
• Isharo1 wrote on 2010-04-28 16:37

  Quote from Arsik;21346:

  Snow Rats... not sure if they come before, or after Black Ship Rats on the Giant's hate list.

  
  
  Defintely before ._.
• Zid wrote on 2010-04-28 17:13

  Quote from Trigger;20218:

  Last I checked, Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth are "elements". Read the description of the respective cylinder types if you need proof of that.
  
  "...use the Fire Elemental Alchemy for effective results..."
  "...use the Water Elemental Alchemy for effective results..."
  "...use the Wind Elemental Alchemy for effective results..."
  "...use the Clay Elemental Alchemy for effective results..." (fail translation is fail but oh well)
  
  Whether you call them elements or attributes, it doesn't really matter; all you need to remember is that they don't work like the elements of magic -- they don't have some kind of rock-paper-scissors cycle.

  
  
  

  Quote from Rime;20220:

  Actually, ""Elemental" is very much an alchemical term as it is magic. In fact, one of its exclusive uses was to describe the four elemental beings/building blocks of alchemy: gnome, sylph, undine, and salamander. That said, elemental isn't an incorrect term to describe cylinders since it may refer to these four properties.

  
  
  Translation and actual relation are different things.
  
  What do you call Fire, Ice, and Lightning of Magic? Elementals.
  
  Description of basic Fire, Water, Wind, and Clay Crystals: Attributes.
  
  As much as "Element" can be an alchemical term (of whatever universe you want to refer to), it's interferes with "Element" of magical terms. That being said, it is initially a confusing term to use in both Magic and Alchemy of Mabinogi. That's why I like to separate the two, "Elemental" for Magic and "Attribute" for Alchemy. Both are not incorrect either, and in my perspective, is a better way to define the clear differences between the two branches.
  
  I also don't call the 4 rudiments of Alchemy as "Elements" due to the observation that these 4 rudiments are states of matter (Fire being produced from matter in this case), as opposed to Elements (fantasy definition of "Element") of Magic being states of energy (Fire being observed as "force" of heat). An element in fantasy terms can be described as an affinity or principle of some force of nature, that being energy being produced as a force. Attribute is described as a quality of something, which is easier to connect to states of matter (Mabinogi's Alchemy).
  
  tl;dr This all just makes more sense to me, because of how my logic plays out. "Element" for Mabinogi's Magic, "Attribute" for Mabinogi's Alchemy. Magic and Alchemy are supposed to be opposite and related to each other in Mabinogi, like how matter and energy are related.
• Iyasenu wrote on 2010-04-28 17:54
  I guess i'll just call all things that are affected by fire/ice/wind/blah elements :|
  just seems easier that way...
  
  also i want raincasting xD
  looks fun to have.
  i wonder if it's affected by water cylinder :p
• Trigger wrote on 2010-04-28 19:01

  Quote from Zid;21369:

  I also don't call the 4 rudiments of Alchemy as "Elements" due to the observation that these 4 rudiments are states of matter (Fire being produced from matter in this case), as opposed to Elements (fantasy definition of "Element") of Magic being states of energy (Fire being observed as "force" of heat). An element in fantasy terms can be described as an affinity or principle of some force of nature, that being energy being produced as a force. Attribute is described as a quality of something, which is easier to connect to states of matter (Mabinogi's Alchemy).
  
  tl;dr This all just makes more sense to me, because of how my logic plays out. "Element" for Mabinogi's Magic, "Attribute" for Mabinogi's Alchemy. Magic and Alchemy are supposed to be opposite and related to each other in Mabinogi, like how matter and energy are related.

  
  
  Truth be told, I don't refer to alchemy as having "element" OR "attribute" -- mostly because it just doesn't need to be described like that in the first place. Use Fire with a Fire Cylinder, Water with a Water Cylinder, etc.; that's really all that needs to be said about it.
  
  Also, Wind is not a state of matter, but rather the name for the motion of the air. Technically, it should be Fire, Water, Air, and Earth -- and the relationship between these four is as Rime said, the building blocks of nature itself (or surmised building blocks waaaay back when people were ignorant). The man who originally hypothesized the four elements system also included such ridiculous concepts as "thinning air produces fire, compressing it produces earth" and other nonsense.
  
  There's no confusion between the two different "element" systems for me, but I can see how it would confuse other people, especially people who don't have a background in RPGs.
  
  And about the Magic vs. Alchemy thing -- I don't recall seeing that concept anywhere in-game, that the two are supposed to be somehow related opposites. Can you remember where you read that? *is interested now*
  
  
  

  Quote from Iyasenu;21384:

  also i want raincasting xD
  looks fun to have.
  i wonder if it's affected by water cylinder :p

  
  
  Rain Casting is not affected by the Water Cylinder (to my knowledge at least), but Rain Casting itself increases the damage of Water Cannon.
• Zid wrote on 2010-04-28 21:28

  Quote from Trigger;21418:

  Truth be told, I don't refer to alchemy as having "element" OR "attribute" -- mostly because it just doesn't need to be described like that in the first place. Use Fire with a Fire Cylinder, Water with a Water Cylinder, etc.; that's really all that needs to be said about it.
  
  Also, Wind is not a state of matter, but rather the name for the motion of the air. Technically, it should be Fire, Water, Air, and Earth -- and the relationship between these four is as Rime said, the building blocks of nature itself (or surmised building blocks waaaay back when people were ignorant). The man who originally hypothesized the four elements system also included such ridiculous concepts as "thinning air produces fire, compressing it produces earth" and other nonsense.
  
  There's no confusion between the two different "element" systems for me, but I can see how it would confuse other people, especially people who don't have a background in RPGs.

  
  
  Wind is still air, and air is still matter. When you describe Wind, you still have to refer to the matter known as air as some point. Lightning, on the other hand, is rarely associated with matter. Hence why I wouldn't say Wind wouldn't be completely out of the subject.
  
  I'm just really uptight about this, for little to no reason, other than shoddy translation/concepts of the NA translators.
  
  

  Quote from Trigger;21418:

  And about the Magic vs. Alchemy thing -- I don't recall seeing that concept anywhere in-game, that the two are supposed to be somehow related opposites. Can you remember where you read that? *is interested now*

  
  
  It's not a true opposite, but in Mabinogi lore, Alchemy is related to Magic because of how both are created.
  
  Magic is a manipulation of Mana (which itself is based on Erg, which is known as the life force) which is created from Eweca, and also through conversion of Palala's "sunlight" (which is why Mana Tunnel are also referred to as "Sun Gates").
  
  Alchemy stems, from what I read from G9 cutscenes and dialogue, from Noitar Arat, also known as the grounds of the "Erg of the Black Sun". Whereas Erg and Mana come from the celestial entities of Palala and Eweca, the driving force behind Alchemy is from the Shadow World, where Noitar Arat resides. Because of this, Magic and Alchemy are related due to the supernatural phenomenon of their "driving" forces, but considered opposites, as Magic is from Palala (the Sun of Light?), and Alchemy is from Noitar Arat (the Sun of Darkness).
  
  Feel free to correct me on NA G9 storyline info though.
• Rime wrote on 2010-04-29 04:40
  Wow. So complicated. When talking about videogame science, I really find it best to just throw my worldly, scientific logic out the window. Anyway, you're both wrong.
  
  An elemental refers to something in its purest and most irreducible form (salamanders, undines, sylphs and gnomes were believed to be beings that embodied the nature of each element, so they were called elementals) which can be formed into higher, more complex components. In Mabinogi, transmutation of these elements is made possible in the form of alchemy thanks to the energies from the Noitor Arat. Of the five or six elements, earth, air, water and fire are some of the most basic of the pure elements in mabinogi's alchemy (probably the most useable I guess), so it's not incorrect to refer to their corresponding cylinder as elemental cylinders.
  
  Unlike the Noitor Arat, Eweca doesn't provide the energy for direct manipulation of matter. Instead, you're given mana (the noitor arat also gives mana, so I suppose mana isn't exclusive to the human world, or it's all just probably a confusing fudge-up), which can discharged as magical energy. Depending on the the method, you can freeze water particles in the air to create ice, burn air to cause fire, or generate enough positive and negative polarization to create lightning. Ice, lightning, fire elementals that are found in game are these energies in pure, physical form, so I suppose its safe refer to ice, fire and lighting as elements too lol.
• Iyasenu wrote on 2010-04-29 05:11

  Quote from Rime;22045:

  Wow. So complicated. When talking about videogame science, I really find it best to just throw my worldly, scientific logic out the window. Anyway, you're both wrong.
  
  An elemental refers to something in its purest and most irreducible form (salamanders, undines, sylphs and gnomes were believed to be beings that embodied the nature of each element, so they were called elementals) which can be formed into higher, more complex components. In Mabinogi, transmutation of these elements is made possible in the form of alchemy thanks to the energies from the Noitor Arat. Of the five or six elements, earth, air, water and fire are some of the most basic of the pure elements in mabinogi's alchemy (probably the most useable I guess), so it's not incorrect to refer to their corresponding cylinder as elemental cylinders.
  
  Unlike the Noitor Arat, Eweca doesn't provide the energy for direct manipulation of matter. Instead, you're given mana (the noitor arat also gives mana, so I suppose mana isn't exclusive to the human world, or it's all just probably a confusing fudge-up), which can discharged as magical energy. Depending on the the method, you can freeze water particles in the air to create ice, burn air to cause fire, or generate enough positive and negative polarization to create lightning. Ice, lightning, fire elementals that are found in game are these energies in pure, physical form, so I suppose its safe refer to ice, fire and lighting as elements too lol.

  
  
  HHHNNNNGGGHHHHH!! -drops dead-
  Science? In MY Mabinogi?
  

  [Image: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/mspa_face.gif]
• Aubog007 wrote on 2010-04-29 07:00

  Quote from Iyasenu;22059:

  HHHNNNNGGGHHHHH!! -drops dead-
  Science? In MY Mabinogi?
  

  [Image: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/mspa_face.gif]

  
  
  It's what makes the storyline of this game amazing. (least for me)
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-29 09:02

  Quote from Athde;20195:

  Woot on the magic damage :D

  
  
  On second thought, the magic damage rebalance is gonna make me hate my Ego even more.
  29 Damage over a normal Ice Wand is only a ~20% boost. If Int contributes more without a Wand rebalance, that'll make my Ego even insignificant.