Fiona Sword vs. Hammer Comparison and Analysis Guide

• Mama wrote on 2010-12-28 01:40
  is Orchid LLR? I never really bothered to memorize the names of the attacks that dont have skillbooks, so apologies if it isn't.
  
  if so, OP isn't wrong to favor them, situationally. I'm not sure what all the hubub is about. Its range is unmatched in regards to hammer skills, similar to amaranth as noted, and great for small windows where the boss lunged forward or something, such as what papa did when it did that whiff(?) lunge (I also use it when the GS does the googly eye when its tired, perfect time window). I actually love it for the ability to hit behind it at well, I do occasionally end up in a situation where I need to kill a vampire behind me and a little farther ahead and position accordingly. It's also a very important move during Red Tyrant.
  
  also, using stigma only when the boss is down? It's versatile like amaranth is (albeit with less range so more care is needed), It's just a matter of position and timing to get it after a boss does an attack.
• blahblahblahx wrote on 2010-12-29 22:13
  I'd just like to point out that hammer Fiona doesn't need to HS cancel out of her attacks because she can move or dodge cancel out of them instead - it's not like it's impossible to cancel out of hammers animation frames. It is true however that even with canceling both hammer and sword attacks, hammers attacks are still slower.
• heretic304 wrote on 2010-12-30 07:55

  Quote from blahblahblahx;267582:

  I'd just like to point out that hammer Fiona doesn't need to HS cancel out of her attacks because she can move or dodge cancel out of them instead - it's not like it's impossible to cancel out of hammers animation frames. It is true however that even with canceling both hammer and sword attacks, hammers attacks are still slower.

  
  
  You can't exactly call it "move cancel" or "dodge cancel" because you're not canceling any animations by doing either of those. The moment you can move, or dodge, is the same moment that the delay finishes, so in essence you haven't canceled anything. Heavy Stander, however, does cancel delay, but only for sword, since it has a much longer delay than hammer does.
  
  The way you can look at each attack is the animation which cannot be canceled, and the delay which can be canceled. Sword attacks have an animation and then a lengthy delay, while hammers have a lengthy animation with a nearly negligible delay. The reason Heavy Stander can be used to cancel Sword Delay is because it can be used as soon as the animation is over AND its own animation is way shorter than the Sword's Delay. If you try doing the same with a Hammer, however, you actually add time to your attack because the hammer's delay is shorter than the Heavy Stander Animation.
• blahblahblahx wrote on 2010-12-30 08:35
  You can cancel out of hammer fionas attack animation frames by moving or dodging (or heavy standering) after a certain point in the animation, just like you can cancel out of sword fionas attack animation frames by heavy standering after a certain point in the animation. There is no such thing as 'delay' - there areonly the animation frames and the frame at which the animation can be canceled through various means such as moving, dodging, or blocking. Thus, it is correct to call it move canceling or dodge canceling. Are people going to have to post more youtube videos to prove you wrong again?
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-12-30 08:45

  Quote from blahblahblahx;268584:

  You can cancel out of hammer fionas attack animation frames by moving or dodging (or heavy standering) after a certain point in the animation, just like you can cancel out of sword fionas attack animation frames by heavy standering after a certain point in the animation. There is no such thing as 'delay' - there areonly the animation frames and the frame at which the animation can be canceled through various means such as moving, dodging, or blocking. Thus, it is correct to call it move canceling or dodge canceling. Are people going to have to post more youtube videos to prove you wrong again?

  
  
  Delay, in this sense, is the animation frames when you cannot move, and are after the initial attack. Sword attacks have a short attack animation, and a period where you cannot move after, without a cancel.
  
  The thing about your 'move cancel' and 'dodge cancel' are that, in fact, they are exactly what you wish to do. You wish to move, set up another attack, or dodge a monster's attack. You are restricted from doing these because of the attack you initiated. After a certain point in the animation, which happens to be after the attack portion has finished, you are able to Heavy Stander. Heavy Stander is the -only- thing you are able to do. (May I remind you, I'm talking about swords.) Heavy Stander has a very short get up animation, which means you can move almost immediately after getting out of it. You have now cut out the time it would have taken to wait out the rest of the animation, by cancelling the attack animation with the heavy stander animation.
• heretic304 wrote on 2010-12-30 09:01

  Quote from blahblahblahx;268584:

  You can cancel out of hammer fionas attack animation frames by moving or dodging (or heavy standering) after a certain point in the animation, just like you can cancel out of sword fionas attack animation frames by heavy standering after a certain point in the animation. There is no such thing as 'delay' - there areonly the animation frames and the frame at which the animation can be canceled through various means such as moving, dodging, or blocking. Thus, it is correct to call it move canceling or dodge canceling. Are people going to have to post more youtube videos to prove you wrong again?

  
  
  I'll say it a different way then. When you use a sword, you'll notice that you are able to start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, BEFORE you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, Heavy Stander is considered a cancel, since it shortens the time frame between attacks. When you use a hammer, however, you'll notice that the moment you are able start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, is EXACTLY THE SAME as the moment you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, none of these can be considered a cancel.
• blahblahblahx wrote on 2011-01-08 19:46

  Quote from heretic304;268613:

  I'll say it a different way then. When you use a sword, you'll notice that you are able to start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, BEFORE you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, Heavy Stander is considered a cancel, since it shortens the time frame between attacks. When you use a hammer, however, you'll notice that the moment you are able start your Guard, and then Heavy Stander, is EXACTLY THE SAME as the moment you are able to start to move, attack, or dodge. Due to this fact, none of these can be considered a cancel.

  
  
  No. Canceling is any action that interrupts the current animation frames and starts a different action with different animation frames. There is nothing special or different about heavy stander canceling compared to move canceling, dodge canceling, canceling into gliding fury, or whatever. Move canceling also shortens the time frame between attacks, as you are (work with me here) canceling out of the rest of her attack animation.
  
  Just because the only way for sword fiona to cancel out of her attacks is by HSing doesn't give HS some magical, imaginary properties or special classification relative to other forms of canceling. They are all forms of canceling, regardless of the length of animation frames or how long it takes before you can cancel out of the animation.
  
  Also, some of hammer fionas attacks can't be attack canceled out of into other attacks. Her honey bee sting single right click smash, for example. You can't just keep spamming right click, you have to move, dodge, hs cancel out of it or left click attack. You can't left or right click to cancel out of her LLLLR - you need to move, dodge, or HS cancel it. So you are actually wrong in some cases when stating that she can attack cancel out of her moves.
  
  I hope you're not too confused by this or your head would probably explode trying to figure out all the canceling going on in say, a Devil May Cry or Bayonetta or Street Fighter combo video. Vindictus is pretty brain dead simple with its canceling system. This probably has something to do with mmo players not typically encountering real time action games, so they aren't exactly up on the specifics or definitions.
  
  Edit w/ youtube link:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz78iPXhiBk
  
  First attack you can see LLLLR, where I am mashing left and right click, but the attack isn't cancelled, because you can't left or right click cancel out of that smash. Second attack I do LLLLR except move cancel it, which works (dodge or hs cancel would also work). Third, I start mashing right click to use honey bee sting - note that it can't cancel into itself, so no canceling occurs. Fourth, I start using honey bee sting while holding a movement key, which move cancels out of it repeatendly, and finish by attack canceling out it by left clicking. Anyway, regardless of whether she's move, attack, HS, or dodge canceling, they are all forms of canceling.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-08 22:56

  Quote from blahblahblahx;282200:

  No. Canceling is any action that interrupts the current animation frames and starts a different action with different animation frames. There is nothing special or different about heavy stander canceling compared to move canceling, dodge canceling, canceling into gliding fury, or whatever. Move canceling also shortens the time frame between attacks, as you are (work with me here) canceling out of the rest of her attack animation.
  
  Just because the only way for sword fiona to cancel out of her attacks is by HSing doesn't give HS some magical, imaginary properties or special classification relative to other forms of canceling. They are all forms of canceling, regardless of the length of animation frames or how long it takes before you can cancel out of the animation.
  
  Also, some of hammer fionas attacks can't be attack canceled out of into other attacks. Her honey bee sting single right click smash, for example. You can't just keep spamming right click, you have to move, dodge, hs cancel out of it or left click attack. You can't left or right click to cancel out of her LLLLR - you need to move, dodge, or HS cancel it. So you are actually wrong in some cases when stating that she can attack cancel out of her moves.
  
  I hope you're not too confused by this or your head would probably explode trying to figure out all the canceling going on in say, a Devil May Cry or Bayonetta or Street Fighter combo video. Vindictus is pretty brain dead simple with its canceling system. This probably has something to do with mmo players not typically encountering real time action games, so they aren't exactly up on the specifics or definitions.
  
  Edit w/ youtube link:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz78iPXhiBk
  
  First attack you can see LLLLR, where I am mashing left and right click, but the attack isn't cancelled, because you can't left or right click cancel out of that smash. Second attack I do LLLLR except move cancel it, which works (dodge or hs cancel would also work). Third, I start mashing right click to use honey bee sting - note that it can't cancel into itself, so no canceling occurs. Fourth, I start using honey bee sting while holding a movement key, which move cancels out of it repeatendly, and finish by attack canceling out it by left clicking. Anyway, regardless of whether she's move, attack, HS, or dodge canceling, they are all forms of canceling.

  
  
  1. HS is the ONLY thing you can do during the Sword delay phase.
  You cannot move, dodge, or guard.
  
  2. Certain animations are able to be cancelled with running, such as the Post-HS (with a small shield) knockback. This is irrelevant due to the fact we were talking about HS Cancel and its viability with hammers.
  
  3. Certain animations can be cancelled with attacks. You can spam R and have attacks be spammed, and you can cut off a bit of the Butterfly Attack animation with a normal attack.
• TheBoulder wrote on 2011-01-09 01:16

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;282600:

  1. HS is the ONLY thing you can do during the Sword delay phase.
  You cannot move, dodge, or guard.
  
  2. Certain animations are able to be cancelled with running, such as the Post-HS (with a small shield) knockback. This is irrelevant due to the fact we were talking about HS Cancel and its viability with hammers.
  
  3. Certain animations can be cancelled with attacks. You can spam R and have attacks be spammed, and you can cut off a bit of the Butterfly Attack animation with a normal attack.

  
  
  1. Actually, if you can Heavy Stander cancel, it stands to reason that you can also Guard cancel, seeing as Guard needs to be inputted first before you can even Heavy Stander. The reason people use Heavy Stander to cancel is because tapping a Heavy Stander is significantly faster than tapping a Guard. Also, some moves (example: Amaranth Kick) can also be roll canceled.
  
  Nothing to say on the other points, really.
• blahblahblahx wrote on 2011-01-09 02:45

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;282600:

  1. HS is the ONLY thing you can do during the Sword delay phase.
  You cannot move, dodge, or guard.
  
  2. Certain animations are able to be cancelled with running, such as the Post-HS (with a small shield) knockback. This is irrelevant due to the fact we were talking about HS Cancel and its viability with hammers.
  
  3. Certain animations can be cancelled with attacks. You can spam R and have attacks be spammed, and you can cut off a bit of the Butterfly Attack animation with a normal attack.

  
  
  
  1 This isn't technically correct. You have to guard to get into HS. What you should be saying is you can't move, dodge, or attack cancel out of attacks as sword. Not that I ever stated otherwise, so you're just being redundant (on top of wrong).
  
  2 Actually, I was correcting people on the definition of an attack cancel. It should be obvious it's not worth HSing with hammer as she has other options for canceling her attacks.
  
  3 Please look at the video or test it yourself. You can't cancel honey bee sting into itself by spamming right click.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-09 06:45

  Quote from TheBoulder;282925:

  1. Actually, if you can Heavy Stander cancel, it stands to reason that you can also Guard cancel, seeing as Guard needs to be inputted first before you can even Heavy Stander. The reason people use Heavy Stander to cancel is because tapping a Heavy Stander is significantly faster than tapping a Guard. Also, some moves (example: Amaranth Kick) can also be roll canceled.
  
  Nothing to say on the other points, really.

  
  
  Though unexpected, guard does not happen until after the animation finishes. Guard is delayed until that point, though Heavy Stander bypasses this.
  
  

  Quote from blahblahblahx;283039:

  1 This isn't technically correct. You have to guard to get into HS. What you should be saying is you can't move, dodge, or attack cancel out of attacks as sword. Not that I ever stated otherwise, so you're just being redundant (on top of wrong).
  
  2 Actually, I was correcting people on the definition of an attack cancel. It should be obvious it's not worth HSing with hammer as she has other options for canceling her attacks.
  
  3 Please look at the video or test it yourself. You can't cancel honey bee sting into itself by spamming right click.

  
  
  1. Look above.
  
  2. Agreed.
  
  3. Upon testing, I've found it curious that you're right. But for the rest of her smashes, or even starting a normal attack combo, the delay is removed by the first hammer swing, so that possibly is a form of cancelling, but to a lesser degree.
• blahblahblahx wrote on 2011-01-12 16:45

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;283374:

  3. Upon testing, I've found it curious that you're right. But for the rest of her smashes, or even starting a normal attack combo, the delay is removed by the first hammer swing, so that possibly is a form of cancelling, but to a lesser degree.

  Like I've said a couple times already, canceling is ANY action you take that cancels and replaces a previous action and its related animation frames. That's just how it works in the video game world. And it's not just honey bee sting. Stigma Hammer cannot be canceled into another attack, whether left or right click. It needs to be move, dodge, or HS canceled. See video or test for yourself, again.
• Gotejjeken wrote on 2011-01-13 02:25
  I was once biased against hammers as the Fiona's using them seem to be the worse players in the game. After trying one myself, I must say it does seem to be a lot better than sword (in fact after going back to sword I was getting hit a lot more as I can't just move cancel). Speaking of canceling, I see Heavy Stander Canceling as more of a workaround than anything...and maybe that is intended since sword attacks are faster than hammer attacks. The fact that you can just move out of pretty much any hammer smash is one of the main factors of me now favoring it over sword.
• blahblahblahx wrote on 2011-01-26 18:07
  Hammers slowness is definitely a problem. When using hammers against BL, if he decides to turn and attack you, I just don't have enough time to wait for the un-cancelable portion of the hammer swing to finish before blocking. Best way to do it is just constant LR swings, but then your damage isn't that great.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-27 00:23

  Quote from blahblahblahx;305282:

  Hammers slowness is definitely a problem. When using hammers against BL, if he decides to turn and attack you, I just don't have enough time to wait for the un-cancelable portion of the hammer swing to finish before blocking. Best way to do it is just constant LR swings, but then your damage isn't that great.

  
  
  Just know his patterns. You can time most of your attacks pretty well just by guarding most of it.
  
  Anyways, even with swords, you can't get that many hits in. Might as well have whatever hits you get in count.
  
  (Especially with his high defense. Higher the defense, the more your damage matters.)