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Lunuance wrote on 2011-01-02 04:46
Quote from Fir;272907:
Nope I asked them. They just died a lot and blamed it on Fionas for not tanking properly. We didn't even have the break goal in mind. And I already mentioned luring in my first post (and included the guide in it too).
Blaming deaths on Fionas for not tanking in a full party pug is just crazy. Everyone should be capable of keeping themselves alive in Nightmare. Fionas actually tanking is just a small party tactic with a very organized party (I do it often in guild party Trioing or Duoing and even then its active fighting thats more like soloing one spider), but to expect a Fiona to grab and keep aggro in the middle of a large dying chaotic party is ridiculous and unnecessary.
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Cucurbita wrote on 2011-01-02 05:03
Oh. Nightmare.
Yes, Fiona or Lann both work for tanking.
Fiona is easier to tank with of course. But Lann's invincibility frames on his slip dash actually makes him great at tanking. I've seen it done.
I've successfully tanked one of the spiders full time before. Heavy Stander against the wall. Your stamina can recover fast enough if you time your HS well.
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Intex wrote on 2011-01-02 05:11
Quote from Cucurbita;272943:
Oh. Nightmare.
Yes, Fiona or Lann both work for tanking.
Fiona is easier to tank with of course. But Lann's invincibility frames on his slip dash actually makes him great at tanking. I've seen it done.
I've successfully tanked one of the spiders full time before. Heavy Stander against the wall. Your stamina can recover fast enough if you time your HS well.
Popping a stamina potion or having an Insane Reaper buff lets you last amazingly long even without any timing.
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Cucurbita wrote on 2011-01-02 05:15
Also, if you intend to go into Nightmare to tank a spider, take a large shield. Yeah.
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Fir wrote on 2011-01-02 05:18
Quote from Cucurbita;272955:
Also, if you intend to go into Nightmare to tank a spider, take a large shield. Yeah.
I don't intend to tank but I always go with large shields in raids.
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omgwtflolbbl wrote on 2011-01-02 22:29
Tanking and living a long time are generally two different things. Fiona excels at the latter, but nobody can really tank in this game. Living a long time is part of being a good tank, but being able to take a lot of punishment does not make you a tank. Seems to be a lot of confusion about that in this thread.
Tanking for your party means you actually actively take the aggro (or damage) from the monsters (ideally all of it) so that your teammates are left not having to worry about being attacked at all, and can freely smack the crap out of whatever it is you're taking the aggro from. There is no reliable way to keep all aggro trained on you while your teammates simultaneously attack the target, even with feather/pot spam. Until there is a consistent and more natural method of doing this, like a move that gives off a very high amount of "threat", you can't really call anybody a tank. If you consider feather spam and pot chugging a good way of drawing aggro, which it isn't, then I could tank all day as a naked Evie.
Heavy standering in a corner is not tanking, it's being totally useless. If heavy standering somehow taunted monsters into attacking you (OH MY GOD THAT SHIELD LOOKS SO JUICY), then it'd be tanking. But since it does absolutely nothing to that effect, it's just essentially you kneeling in a corner and twiddling your thumbs while somehow hoping that the monster attacks you. The monster is just as likely to attack your teammates who are actually being useful as it is you who is sitting there doing nothing, you might as well get in on the action and attack and do something useful.
What Fiona is, though, is a disabler. Crazy high stun rate is what really separates her from the others. Still a bit different from tanking. It's really not worth arguing over whether Fiona is a tank to most people in game, though, because people will never be able to separate "taking lots of hits" from tanking. In most peoples minds, being meaty automatically makes you a tank, whether or not you actually have the tools to draw aggro. In reality, taking a lot of hits is only secondary in tanking; drawing aggro is the number one most important thing for a good tank. The best measure of a tanks worth is how long he or she can keep the target from attacking his or her teammates; survivability can always be provided in a different way (healing). It's just natural that if you're going to try to take all the hits that you should probably build yourself meaty; people just draw the wrong conclusion from this (all you need to be a good tank is a lot of health) and miss the important part.
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xJac wrote on 2011-01-03 19:30
Quote from omgwtflolbbl;273560:
Tanking and living a long time are generally two different things.
Tanking for your party means you actually actively take the aggro (or damage) from the monsters (ideally all of it) so that your teammates are left not having to worry about being attacked at all, and can freely smack the crap out of whatever it is you're taking the aggro from.
Heavy standering in a corner is not tanking, it's being totally useless.
It's really not worth arguing over whether Fiona is a tank to most people in game, though, because people will never be able to separate "taking lots of hits" from tanking. In most peoples minds, being meaty automatically makes you a tank, whether or not you actually have the tools to draw aggro. In reality, taking a lot of hits is only secondary in tanking; drawing aggro is the number one most important thing for a good tank. The best measure of a tanks worth is how long he or she can keep the target from attacking his or her teammates; survivability can always be provided in a different way (healing). It's just natural that if you're going to try to take all the hits that you should probably build yourself meaty; people just draw the wrong conclusion from this (all you need to be a good tank is a lot of health) and miss the important part.
Disagree on your definition.
The word "tank" (the one in game) generates from you know, tanks from WWI. What do tanks do? Can afford a huge amount of damage without the need to retreat or risk being destroyed, in addition to providing powerful damage output, or any strategic use. While in many mmorpg tank can be viewed as one that holds aggro and also able to survive for a long time, "tank" is not limited to that one definition. In DoTA, LoL, or HoN, tank is someone who can absorb damage and provide some sort of threat (disable, damage, or buffs) to the opposite team. They don't have to hold aggro, or enemy focus.
The definition of tank changes from game to game, you can't say there's only one definition for all "tanks" out there.
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Kueh wrote on 2011-01-03 22:47
In real life combat, the presence of a tank usually draws the attention of the opposing force. Tanks are usually used as distractions in heavy situations while a smaller force handles a situation that requires finesse.
I'd have to agree with omg's definition in that a tank is supposed to protect classes that aren't as able to handle damage.
However, Vindictus isn't in that realm of MMORPG, the mage isn't really a mage, there's no rouge/evasiveness class, among other differences from the classic RPG. I would argue that, because Vindictus isn't a traditional style, there is no tank class.
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phresh wrote on 2011-01-10 21:01
Well, I'll chime in here since apparently no one knows what those Fionas are actually doing. It's not just heavy standing since that wouldn't really work because you'd lose aggro (and run out of Stamina and get killed). The way I do it is Shield Bash -> Block/Heavy Stand (depending on the attack) -> Recover a bit of Stamina -> Shield bash -> Block/Heavy Stand, and so on.
It's as close to tanking as you can get in this game, currently, but that's just semantics, who really cares? I refer to it as 'dancing', personally. It was more like tanking on White Tyrant's Challenge. I could hold aggro for the most part, giving the Lanns and Evies the ability to take pot shots and throw ice blocks. On Nightmare at the ruins, it's often beneficial for the group to take on the weaker boss first. So a Fiona or two can pull aggro on the Green one and let the rest of the group go at the Red one. When it's done well (sufficient separation), the others don't have to worry ol' Laghodessa suddenly belly flopping on them from behind and potentially wiping out half of the party. We all know that once a couple people die, it's a slippery slope towards a messy battle. This method is aimed at preventing that.
Regardless, I'm sure most of us have been in very good groups where this tactic isn't necessary at all because, when it's done right, the whole group can unleash on both Spiders at once until they're both dead without taking a hit (stun/flinch lock). This is what those all spear Lann groups do that can clear the battle in under 3 minutes. In a perfect world, all the groups would be this way, but there's varying levels of difficulty and varying level of player skill, so it isn't.
Golems can serve the same purpose but are also non-beneficial due to getting in the way and blocking peoples' views. Fiona doesn't result in the same 'can't see ****, captain!' problem.
Bottom line, if you're trying to clear Nightmare on Hard/Macha, or your party just isn't that great, a good Fiona dancing with Laghodessa can make a world of difference.
Cheers!
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Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-11 04:27
Quote from phresh;285154:
Well, I'll chime in here since apparently no one knows what those Fionas are actually doing. It's not just heavy standing since that wouldn't really work because you'd lose aggro (and run out of Stamina and get killed). The way I do it is Shield Bash -> Block/Heavy Stand (depending on the attack) -> Recover a bit of Stamina -> Shield bash -> Block/Heavy Stand, and so on.
It's as close to tanking as you can get in this game, currently, but that's just semantics, who really cares? I refer to it as 'dancing', personally. It was more like tanking on White Tyrant's Challenge. I could hold aggro for the most part, giving the Lanns and Evies the ability to take pot shots and throw ice blocks. On Nightmare at the ruins, it's often beneficial for the group to take on the weaker boss first. So a Fiona or two can pull aggro on the Green one and let the rest of the group go at the Red one. When it's done well (sufficient separation), the others don't have to worry ol' Laghodessa suddenly belly flopping on them from behind and potentially wiping out half of the party. We all know that once a couple people die, it's a slippery slope towards a messy battle. This method is aimed at preventing that.
Regardless, I'm sure most of us have been in very good groups where this tactic isn't necessary at all because, when it's done right, the whole group can unleash on both Spiders at once until they're both dead without taking a hit (stun/flinch lock). This is what those all spear Lann groups do that can clear the battle in under 3 minutes. In a perfect world, all the groups would be this way, but there's varying levels of difficulty and varying level of player skill, so it isn't.
Golems can serve the same purpose but are also non-beneficial due to getting in the way and blocking peoples' views. Fiona doesn't result in the same 'can't see ****, captain!' problem.
Bottom line, if you're trying to clear Nightmare on Hard/Macha, or your party just isn't that great, a good Fiona dancing with Laghodessa can make a world of difference.
Cheers!
Beautifully spoken.
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xJac wrote on 2011-01-11 04:50
You don't need Fiona to dance with Lagho, a Lann or Evie can do the same to keep the spider busy (preferably spears and scythe).
Just saying.
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Mama wrote on 2011-01-11 05:55
Quote from xJac;285959:
You don't need Fiona to dance with Lagho, a Lann or Evie can do the same to keep the spider busy (preferably spears and scythe).
Just saying.
I was thinking the same thing.
I had this discussion before so I'll just rehash my post.
its good to keep in mind that defense and the term 'tank' means little in the face of knowing that it is possible to succeed without any 'true' tank qualities in this game,
but 'defensive' skills such as blink, slip dash, karok's 'absorption' and guard mean a lot to a character's ability to survive (survivability = tank ?? it's hard to define in a game like this because they deviated from the 'tank' norm on purpose.)
instead of 'tank', she should be the one with the most reliable defensive abilities as stated by others, while other aspects of her gameplay have been compromised for sake of balance.