Some questions on stuff 8D;;

• Justified wrote on 2011-01-12 10:52

  Quote from Cryosite;287479:

  I have to wonder why some people are so resistant to Trigger's guide and call it biased.

  
  
  

  Truly the god of the bolt spells, if you can get enough Magic Balance to stabilize its erratic damage range.

  
  
  You're right. Totally unbiased.
  
  In any case, I disagreed with much that he said back in the days of Ciar Adv, mainly being that IS was far more MP efficient than TH.
  
  Considering Ciar Advance, Thunder would take at least two charges to clear a room (it can't hit the entire room at once since one charge is only 4 targets). That means it'd cost at least 70MP, or 84MP if shot twice. 59-71MP with a speedcast wand.
  Ice Spear was able to OHKO on crits or with 2 charges. We'll say 2 charges since we're talking about consistency, so 64MP, or 40MP for an elf.
  
  Regardless of race, it was possible for IS to outperform TH when the guide was written.
  
  

  Cool? Definitely. Expensive and impractical? Absolutely.

  
  
  Perhaps, but it really depends on how you use it. Like you said, Trigger can't think for you, and likewise I can't think for Trigger. He ranked TH first and I ranked IS first, which is why we see things differently. IS is different in that you have to keep on moving to get the best position. TH-users are probably used to corner camping, which won't work for IS.
  
  As far as current standing goes, if you're ignoring Blaze then I honestly see Fireball as the best Advance Magic to rank. Not only does it cost the least AP, but it boasts the highest damage, biggest splash, moderate loading time, and easiest usage out of all three spells. It can hit almost entire rooms in Taillteann/Rath missions (without needing to be timed just right so everything doesn't bounce up and kill you while you stand there TH-frozen), and is the only spell capable of doing base damage on Ghasts (aside from Int). It's only flaw is that you can't really use it while soloing, but then again if you can solo it you probably won't need to nuke it with magic.
• Jando wrote on 2011-01-12 11:46
  HEY CHILI! /waves.
  
  Ring bow is the best choice for an Ego right now but is costly to maintain with repair costs, especially with the ego reward reset glitch for hot air balloon neutralizing the easily accessible Ring Bows. Leather long bows are the standard ego and are effective but not the best. Ring bows require the most work to become better then the Wing bow and Ring bow with having to rank Will and Luck for the max damage increase.
  
  As for skills, specializing is the key. You can't be a good hybrid without first having a foundation. Which is why I made sure that my foundation of Melee was strong enough, that is still able to get my desired level/explor each rb, before going into range and hybridizing. As for you range starts out weak, continues to be weak, gets a damage increase, then becomes awesome.
  
  Magnum can be ranked while doing refine as it only adds 18 dex and ranged attack can be taken to r5 which is only 14 dex. After refine is done bow mastery is a MUST. 37 max damage will bridge the gap of being weak to actually feeling like your an archer. r1 magnum and r1 ranged attack should follow after that. Crash shot is quite cheap to get to r5, its usefulness appears at r5 and thus is an achieviable goal to get without spending an absurb amount of ap, it only costs 230 ap. With the easily obtained r5 Magic mastery your mana pool should be high enough to raft with Crash shot. I have around 200 mana and its just perfect for my type of rafts. I do this method:
  
  [video=youtube;obpl0NeQmyc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obpl0NeQmyc[/video]
  
  Costs are negligible when I make double of it back with grinding.
  
  Support shot should be ranked aswell, but wait till the destiny system so you can get that x2 training speed and also abuse x2 training pots with any future Double rainbow events. Mirage missile should only be ranked for its dex. Weaving, Playing instruments and First aid are all great life skills to start working at for the great dex they give, the ap cost: dex ratio is amazing.
  
  However, a good archer isn't just all about skills. Equipment also plays a massive role especially for elves who need crit for their magnum/ranged attack spam over Humans crash shot spam. This is where elves get the disadvantage of range when they have to focus on crit. The only reason why I'm stronger in range then say others is because of my equipment, I can only improve when I eventually get into life skills which haven't been a priority. g13 will introduce me to +38 dex with Bow and Sword Mastery then the +30max and +15min damage which will get me over the 300 dex and possible over 300 max damage. But thats with an Ego but since I abuse mine as use it as my main weapon it doesn't matter, its still a weapon.
  
  As for bows, S/R upgrades along with Artisan upgrades make things unique. I don't know the stat potential of Artisan upgrades for bows so I don't know whats better. The Crash shot bow would be the 230 Ring bow with S upgrade, enchanted with Glorious Spike/Caliburn enchanted onto it, reason being for S, the splash damage of it is only 250% and you want to power that 250%, I don't have knowledge to find the average of whats better, maybe those who do can, to find out which is better for a Crash Shot bow but thats what I've come up with, ideally a lvl 50 ring bow would the crash shot bow but seriously, who has one of those? Lizard Caliburn is great for crit bows, especially on a short bow which can reach 46% critical, 66% with those enchants. R upgrade would still be best. Glorious can replace Lizard for more damage and only a loss of -2% crit.
  
  As for Magic tab. Mana shield priority 1. Getting that to r6 is primary for turning Elves natural glass cannon into something much more solid. Its ap heavy though and should only be done when mains skills have been ranked.
  
  As for magic its better to start once again specializing, especially with g13 making specializing possible then branching off into other elements.
• radionoise wrote on 2011-01-12 13:23

  Quote from Jando;287597:

  However, a good archer isn't just all about skills. Equipment also plays a massive role especially for elves who need crit for their magnum/ranged attack spam over Humans crash shot spam. This is where elves get the disadvantage of range when they have to focus on crit. The only reason why I'm stronger in range then say others is because of my equipment, I can only improve when I eventually get into life skills which haven't been a priority. g13 will introduce me to +38 dex with Bow and Sword Mastery then the +30max and +15min damage which will get me over the 300 dex and possible over 300 max damage. But thats with an Ego but since I abuse mine as use it as my main weapon it doesn't matter, its still a weapon.

  
  
  How exactly are elves at a disadvantage because they have to take critical into consideration? That's like saying you're at a disadvantage when you own a car that is three times faster than normal because you have to spend extra effort to let it perform at its fullest potential.
  
  Endgame damage and critical enchants for range overlap, so at worst you'd have to sacrifice 23 max damage for 33% critical (to reach 130%), or 9 max damage for 12% critical (to reach 110%) without an ego bow.
  
  Critical hits are the backbone of all ranged skills, and that's why the destiny system allows only the Archer job to get faster training on the Critical Hit skill... most of the people who use range and enchant only for max damage are not really archers, but they main in alchemy/magic/melee and just want a decent Crash Shot they can use when the skill is situationally efficient for them.
• Jando wrote on 2011-01-12 13:43

  Quote from radionoise;287628:

  How exactly are elves at a disadvantage because they have to take critical into consideration? That's like saying you're at a disadvantage when you own a car that is three times faster than normal because you have to spend extra effort to let it perform at its fullest potential.
  

  
  
  Any disadvantage is a disadvantage, no matter how big or small.
  
  And Humans need all the advantages they need over elves since they own in archery so much.
  
  

  Quote from radionoise;287628:

  
  Endgame damage and critical enchants for range overlap, so at worst you'd have to sacrifice 23 max damage for 33% critical (to reach 130%), or 9 max damage for 12% critical (to reach 110%) without an ego bow.
  

  
  
  Is that including the new enchants coming g13 and g14? Quite curious in what archers can achieve with the new variety of enchants coming out.
  
  

  Quote from radionoise;287628:

  
  Critical hits are the backbone of all ranged skills, and that's why the destiny system allows only the Archer job to get faster training on the Critical Hit skill... most of the people who use range and enchant only for max damage are not really archers, but they main in alchemy/magic/melee and just want a decent Crash Shot they can use when the skill is situationally efficient for them.

  
  
  Personally, I'm a hybrid of Melee/Range and I do use enchants, except Wooden Needle since I used that, that increase both range and melee capabilities. With that being said I also have alot of work to do. Vast and Twisted will be 2 enchants that I will be on the lookout for to replace my Wooden Needle for range. (Vast will be the first one I get since I do spam alot of Their methods, I have no information on how accessible Twisted will be). Same goes with life skills, the only I have is refine out of what? Every single other life skill.
  
  But because I have a lvl 27 str ego and the enchants that I have my range is at: 138 - 261 with only 284 dex (274 base). And thats with only r1 refine out of the dex life skills. This will be increased further when g13 comes out as I get bow and sword mastery to get another 38 dex, archer destiny will give me another 50 dex at 60/20 getting my total dex to 367 and my max and min damage to 176 - 324 which is pretty amazing (first time doing those calculations and I am very blown away by them). Slighty more with the Bow Mastery Master Title which is +10 dex and +10 dex or 14 max damage > +20 dex title (8 max damage).
  
  tl;dr - Archers get a f***ing increase in damage in g13.
• radionoise wrote on 2011-01-12 13:48

  Quote from Jando;287638:

  Any disadvantage is a disadvantage, no matter how big or small.

  
  
  It'd still not be a disadvantage, because if an elf was so inclined as to completely forgo critical they would have access to the same max damage setup, and still be able to fire magnum three times faster. In terms of average damage, anyway, capped crit is overwhelmingly more effective than 9~23 max damage.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2011-01-12 13:51
  Wing Bow
  Leather Long Bow
  Elven Long Bow
  Highlander Long Bow
  
  Those can be S/R upgraded.
• radionoise wrote on 2011-01-12 13:56

  Quote from Kaeporo;287641:

  Wing Bow
  Leather Long Bow
  Elven Long Bow
  Highlander Long Bow
  
  Those can be S/R upgraded.

  
  
  In G14 Crossbow, the Arbalest and the Composite Bow can also be S/R upgraded... A +6 R-Type Arbalest with r1 Crossbow Mastery will make Alby Adv HM a lot more comfortable.
• Jando wrote on 2011-01-12 14:43

  Quote from radionoise;287647:

  In G14 Crossbow, the Arbalest and the Composite Bow can also be S/R upgraded... A +6 R-Type Arbalest with r1 Crossbow Mastery will make Alby Adv HM a lot more comfortable.

  
  
  :D So getting that Arbalest. With my current set up and that bow I'll have 151% crit.
  
  Oh and I edited my previous post.
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-12 17:22

  Quote from Cryosite;287479:

  I have to wonder why some people are so resistant to Trigger's guide and call it biased. He openly states in the very beginning that no guide can think for you, and his guide is merely a well-informed resource.

  
  
  Apparently people didn't read that part. Anyways, I wasn't criticizing the guide itself but people who quote it.
  
  

  His suggestions on "build" are based on facts. Bolt spells do crappy damage compared to intermediate magic.

  
  
  Agreed. I meant Thunder bias. Admit it, his guide is a big ode to Thunder.
  
  

  While they are useful for the early levels as a source of INT and getting to a point where you can quickly kill weak enemies, your real gameplay as a mage starts when you begin working with intermediate magic.
  

  
  
  Agreed. But not necessarily Thunder.
  
  

  Thunder is far easier to get than fireabll or ice spear in terms of hunting your own pages or buying them. Thunder costs less AP than ice spear. These are simple facts... not opinions. Therefore it is easier to get rk1 thunder than it is rk1 in either of the other two intermediate magics, making it the easiest route to getting a high damage main attack.
  

  
  
  Is getting the pages the real issue here? You're saying that because I can get a spell easily I should rank it first despite the fact that another one might be better? That's not really what somebody who seeks the best will do. Thunder pages are easier to acquire, that's a fact; but ranking Thunder first because of that is an opinion.
  
  
  

  Unless you're an elf, ice spear uses up way more mp/damage than thunder does. Even as an elf, you're only about matching thunder in mp/damage efficiency. In addition to that, thunder has longer range, making it much easier to use. Do note that trigger's guide actually does mention that ice spear is a viable choice for elves because of that reduced mana cost.

  
  
  Justified already answered this nicely.
  
  

  But put to its most simple terms, Trigger's guide is as follows: step 1, get yourself to the point where you can kill easy stuff. Ice bolt is a good choice if you are starting with nothing, but players already developed in some way (such as having several skill ranks in another build) can skip to the next step.
  
  Step 2: build your character up in a "magey" fashion. Increase MP pool through magic mastery, raise INT through various skills. As part of the INT building process rank lightning bolt as a strictly better bolt spell than icebolt.
  
  Step 3: Work on what will become your primary attack, Thunder. Enjoy easier leveling and AP due to the amazing power of this spell.
  
  Step 4: build up some alternate, situational attacks like fireball, and overall boost your INT a lot higher to prepare for good blaze damage, and more MP to fuel it. Ensure other basics like critical hit are rk1 by now, if not already done.
  
  Step 5: rank blaze to 1 because it is super fast and strong but only in the hands of a well developed mage with lots of INT.
  
  Step 6: enjoy your success having gotten to a powerful character quickly, and use that power to do other stuff that might also interest you, like becoming a hybrid.

  
  
  
  Thunder is great, I use it frequently, but Trigger despises Ice Spear and you can see in his guide very clearly (not to mention his countless posts about it in Nexon Forums and Mabination). I have proved in different threads that, mathematically speaking, Ice Spear outperforms Thunder in different situations, and I quote what I said earlier in this thread "every spell's useful in different situations".
• Ignorant wrote on 2011-01-12 21:59
  So in the end, R1 Refining > R1 Range > R1 Mag > R9 Final Shot > R9 Crash Shot > Dex life skills > R5 Crash Shot > the rest?
  
  And thanks for the responses, guys 8D
• Kaeporo wrote on 2011-01-12 22:54

  Quote from Ignorant;288072:

  So in the end, R1 Refining > R1 Range > R1 Mag > R9 Final Shot > R9 Crash Shot > Dex life skills > R5 Crash Shot > the rest?
  
  And thanks for the responses, guys 8D

  
  
  1. r1 Final Shot or no Final Shot at all
  2. r5 Crash Shot or no Crash Shot at all
  3. r9/r5/r1 Windmill and r5 Lightning bolt are extremely useful skills and will give you some flexibility in combat
  4. Rank Critical Hit whenever possible.
  5. Rank Bow Mastery before Weaving but after Refine.