Is Lann the weakest character in the game now?

• Habskii wrote on 2011-06-24 14:49
  I think the roblem of this all is what the stats are @ w.e current the end-game content provides. As in ES and stuff. Fiona's and Evie's can pass the 13, 222 atk/m.attk thing. And supposedly 13, 222 is the most attk you would need to get over all current bosses defense to put in enough dmg/dps. Hammer fiona's in kr are 15K in attk O.e and most are a min of atleast 14K attk. Mage evie's are atleast 14K and scythes are either above 13, 500 or 14K e.e Karok's are either on the 13K attk or just above. Accordin to afk, it's hard for any type of lann to pass the 13, 222 landmark... in exchange they have the dps but then again, it's only applicable to bosses like hidden :\
  If we got ES's that can help lan's more than cooo, it would help out and our ddeath's won't have to be AS meaningless. And yeah i think they gunna give a spear lann's a look into for a buff/slight revamp ( sword lann's aren't being touched; they usually get skill updates )
• ByunTaengoo wrote on 2011-06-24 15:18

  Quote from timanth;487556:

  
  
  
  
  Gliding Fury does nowhere near as much damage as Soul Skewer. I know people like to cite numbers, but when playing vindictus I like to cite visceral experience. A noncrit soul skewer made a boss's health bar go down more than a Gliding Fury. QED. It doesn't matter how many numbers are bandied about if emperical evidence shows otherwise.
  
  

  
  
  It's called...balance -_- And, different stats on different characters...Those numbers will always be more accurate than some rando's observations.
  
  To the OP though, reading your post it seems like you're a decent spear lann, so maybe you don't need to switch. I play Hammer Fiona now and I usually can't out DPS the spear lanns and staff evies, though it may be because I have really low AP...lol
• Aryiane wrote on 2011-06-24 17:02

  Quote from TA;486086:

  Wait, there was a massive hammer change? When did this happen?

  
  
  
  
  Uhhh this. I had no idea there was a hammer buff.
• timanth wrote on 2011-06-24 17:33

  Quote from ByunTaengoo;487736:

  It's called...balance -_- And, different stats on different characters...Those numbers will always be more accurate than some rando's observations.
  
  To the OP though, reading your post it seems like you're a decent spear lann, so maybe you don't need to switch. I play Hammer Fiona now and I usually can't out DPS the spear lanns and staff evies, though it may be because I have really low AP...lol

  
  
  You missed the rest of my statement...It was well known that these Lanns were better-geared and better-upgraded AP-wise than I was. So THEORETICALLY, the numbers show that GF should have done more damage than Soul Skewer. It didn't. And who the hell comes up with these numbers anyways? For all we know damage calculations could be done different in PvP and PvE, and afaik you can't see exact numbers in PvE (except Overkill, but then you don't know how much health the mob started with).
  
  

  Quote from Aryiane;487911:

  Uhhh this. I had no idea there was a hammer buff.

  
  
  It was ninja-patched in with Karok, along with all the other recent KR rebalances (evie faster object pickup, etc). The difference is that hammers now have lower delay between their attacks, Butterfly can be Heavy Stander Cancelled, eacn successive swing of Butterfly does near the damage of the original, delay on Orchid Strike (LLR) has been massively reduced, and all hammer smashes have been buffed in terms of damage.
  
  And if you can't out-DPS spear lanns and staff evies....well either you're doing something wrong, or you don't have the gear/AP for it.
• foreignreign wrote on 2011-06-24 17:34

  Quote from timanth;487556:

  You haven't answered my point that everyone would be better off dealing with the boss than wasting the time required to run over, rez the spear Lann, and run back to the boss. I acknowledge that extremely skilled Lanns are an asset to the party, but the skill floor for Lanns is extremely low, and the threshold for competency is extremely high. Lann is really a class that you have to work extremely hard at to get good at, and God knows I can't solo for my life with a spear Lann.

  
  
  Because the skill floor for Fiona or Karok isn't just as low? Terrible Fionas will just sit around in their shields and Heavy Stander all day, Karoks will mistime Absorb Shocks and die just as fast as a spear Lann.
  
  And we all know that everyone is always on a boss all the time and dead bodies don't get chucked to the side where someone else is. Or someone dies where a boss is, the boss moves away to attack someone else, leaving you with a dead body and several people around it. Nope, not at all.
  
  
  
  

  Gliding Fury does nowhere near as much damage as Soul Skewer. I know people like to cite numbers, but when playing vindictus I like to cite visceral experience. A noncrit soul skewer made a boss's health bar go down more than a Gliding Fury. QED. It doesn't matter how many numbers are bandied about if emperical evidence shows otherwise.

  
  
  ... so you want us to just throw random experiences around as if that proves more than numbers which the general population accepts? What about weapon upgrades? Skill ranks? Balance numbers? Enchants? Critical hits? Weapon types? Title amounts? Stats? What about all those things you didn't even mention?
  
  

  And please don't tell me that a sword Lann can put out more burst damage than a hammer Fiona, because that's also not true. Butterfly spin is currently both ridiculously fast and powerful, and I can easily outdamage ranked Gliding Furies even with my butterfly at E.

  
  
  Butterfly Swing still takes several seconds to pull off. Double Crescent is much faster and has more reach. It's easier to hit a moving monster with Double Crescent than it is Butterfly Swing. Double Crescent will also often lead into Gliding, which again, is easier to pull off on moving targets than Butterfly Swing.
  
  And please stop saying crap like "I can easily outdamage..." when I can easily outdamage scythe Evies on Titan and Thor which throws out your entire "Scythe Evies are awesome" tirade. Let's not make this a battle of who's experienced what please, because at that point we're not even arguing anything with any amount of leverage.
  
  

  And at higher levels, you can no longer guarantee crits even with FI since bosses have such high crit resistance and are going to keep getting more of it the later on we get.

  
  
  Braid Tassels + 1000 WIL + Fury Infusion + Critical Mastery r6 = ~99 critical. Thor has 53 resistance. 99 - 53 = 46. Chance of not getting a single crit against Thor is only 15.74% with an LR. That's close to a guaranteed crit.
  
  

  Also, Sprint Smash -> Roll, if you are relying for the roll to crit, takes way more time than an LR.

  
  
  No it doesn't because the Sprint Smash covers more distance than LR, which means you can start it earlier.
  
  

  My point still stands that because Lann has to take time getting to a boss, much slower than a Scythie can (because of blink) or a Staffie (because of ranged damage)

  
  
  Scythe Evie may be able to close distance faster, but she doesn't have the stamina regen of Lann (either Lann at that, thanks to Battle Respiration) so she has to cooldown more due to Blink's heavy stamina usage (combined with moving snaps makes scythe Evie eat through stamina at obscene rates). You can throw Insane Reaper in there but that also reduces the Lann's stamina regen as well, although obviously not as quickly.
  
  And even though staff Evie is ranged, Blind Arrow has a large cast time which partially negates its range benefit in terms of reaching a boss, along with Ice Spear. Firebolt also has a long cast time (it has its own unique cast time to Focus which is longer than any other Focus spell), which just leaves Ice Blast and Magic Arrow. Ice Blast doesn't have much better range than Double Crescent, and rarely will people just spam Magic Arrow all day because of the amount of stamina it takes to do good DPS with it.
  
  

  his overall actual DPS will be lower, no matter what the numbers say. Sure, he may be king when the boss is just standing there not doing anything, but in the heat of combat, landing hits will often get him killed. After-GF-delay says hi.

  
  
  And? How many bosses aren't just standing there and doing anything?
  
  Titan can easily be chained with ballistas.
  
  Thor will commonly chase one target, giving other people ample time to attack. Sometimes I have a hard time charging SP on my Fiona against Thor because he refuses to hit me.
  
  Basically any boss that isn't in Hilder Forest or Boat 3 can be easily chained by just one person.
  
  Irukul can be downed fairly often with a decent rock dropper (although this situation is still bad for Lann for other reasons).
  
  Klaus will stay in one place as long as your party knows what it's doing. If your party doesn't then no one will get any real good DPS on him anyway.
  
  Weeping Queen can be chained easily.
  
  Blood Lord is highly susceptible to Palalas.
  
  Nightmare at the Ruins goes best with multiple Spear Lanns.
  
  Glas has a stupid AI that can be easily manipulated by running in circles.
  
  
  

  Quote from timanth;487961:

  And who the hell comes up with these numbers anyways? For all we know damage calculations could be done different in PvP and PvE, and afaik you can't see exact numbers in PvE (except Overkill, but then you don't know how much health the mob started with).

  
  
  XE server where they see the numbers.
• ByunTaengoo wrote on 2011-06-24 17:49

  Quote from timanth;487961:

  You missed the rest of my statement...It was well known that these Lanns were better-geared and better-upgraded AP-wise than I was. So THEORETICALLY, the numbers show that GF should have done more damage than Soul Skewer. It didn't. And who the hell comes up with these numbers anyways? For all we know damage calculations could be done different in PvP and PvE, and afaik you can't see exact numbers in PvE (except Overkill, but then you don't know how much health the mob started with).
  
  

  
  
  Again, it's called balance...
  
  What hammer fionas can consistently out dps a team of staff evies? Spin to win is great and all, but it takes an absurd amount of stamina (it's like 24 per swing after 1st one) without slashing high, and you have no lateral movement if the boss decides to go somewhere else.
• timanth wrote on 2011-06-24 19:58

  Quote from foreignreign;487963:

  Because the skill floor for Fiona or Karok isn't just as low? Terrible Fionas will just sit around in their shields and Heavy Stander all day, Karoks will mistime Absorb Shocks and die just as fast as a spear Lann.

  
  
  The Absorb Shock timing is much more forgiving, and at least perma-HS fionas don't die :P.
  
  

  Quote from foreignreign;487963:

  And we all know that everyone is always on a boss all the time and dead bodies don't get chucked to the side where someone else is. Or someone dies where a boss is, the boss moves away to attack someone else, leaving you with a dead body and several people around it. Nope, not at all.

  
  
  Dunno about you, but I'm always on the boss all the time. Maybe that's why my damage rankings are so high? :P
  
  
  
  
  

  Quote from foreignreign;487963:

  Scythe Evie may be able to close distance faster, but she doesn't have the stamina regen of Lann (either Lann at that, thanks to Battle Respiration) so she has to cooldown more due to Blink's heavy stamina usage (combined with moving snaps makes scythe Evie eat through stamina at obscene rates). You can throw Insane Reaper in there but that also reduces the Lann's stamina regen as well, although obviously not as quickly.
  
  And even though staff Evie is ranged, Blind Arrow has a large cast time which partially negates its range benefit in terms of reaching a boss, along with Ice Spear. Firebolt also has a long cast time (it has its own unique cast time to Focus which is longer than any other Focus spell), which just leaves Ice Blast and Magic Arrow. Ice Blast doesn't have much better range than Double Crescent, and rarely will people just spam Magic Arrow all day because of the amount of stamina it takes to do good DPS with it.
  
  
  
  And? How many bosses aren't just standing there and doing anything?
  
  Titan can easily be chained with ballistas.
  
  Thor will commonly chase one target, giving other people ample time to attack. Sometimes I have a hard time charging SP on my Fiona against Thor because he refuses to hit me.
  
  Basically any boss that isn't in Hilder Forest or Boat 3 can be easily chained by just one person.
  
  Irukul can be downed fairly often with a decent rock dropper (although this situation is still bad for Lann for other reasons).
  
  Klaus will stay in one place as long as your party knows what it's doing. If your party doesn't then no one will get any real good DPS on him anyway.
  
  Weeping Queen can be chained easily.
  
  Blood Lord is highly susceptible to Palalas.
  
  Nightmare at the Ruins goes best with multiple Spear Lanns.
  
  Glas has a stupid AI that can be easily manipulated by running in circles.
  
  
  
  
  XE server where they see the numbers.

  
  
  And yet rarely do I see any people actually using chainhooks on bosses. Again, theoretical numbers mean nothing if noone uses the actual techniques in practice. And in Titan fights where he's chained, I can easily come out top DPS if noone transforms, or if I transform along with everyone else.
  
  Your argument is also invalid against Fiona's butterfly swing if a boss is chained. She'll be able to unload butterflies without stop if the boss is permanently chained. GF and LF require short wind-down frames where the Lann isn't doing damage.
  
  Regarding Scythe Evie's stamina consumption: I've never had to actually cooldown. Moving snaps are supposed to be reserved for when you can't get actual smashes off on a boss; the smashes do more damage than their snaps. Most of the time I keep a snap on hold until I can't attack the boss, like I've said above. If you are managing your stamina properly, you will never have issues with stamina as a scythe evie.
  
  

  Quote from ByunTaengoo;488005:

  Again, it's called balance...
  
  What hammer fionas can consistently out dps a team of staff evies? Spin to win is great and all, but it takes an absurd amount of stamina (it's like 24 per swing after 1st one) without slashing high, and you have no lateral movement if the boss decides to go somewhere else.

  
  
  Balance argument invalid. BT scythe has 65 balance unenchanted, BT spears have 67 balance unenchanted. I've run tests over multiple instances with different spear lanns and the results are always stacked in Evie's favor.
  
  I'm not saying that scythe Evies will beat out good spear lanns, but in general the trend is that Evies will have an easier time doing large amounts of damage because they have a higher skill floor, and can exploit superarmor endlessly by taking hits with mana shield.
  
  Or maybe I'm just pro at scythe evie. I'd be okay with that conclusion too :P.
  
  What it all boils down to is because this game is much more dynamic than typical hotkey-mashing MMOs, everything becomes situational. Fiona and Evie all have more situations where they can output extremely high DPS, whereas Lann does not, even though he might have a few situations where he can pour on more DPS than the female classes. Thus, on average, he's not able to do as much damage as the other two.
• Phanterz wrote on 2011-06-24 21:28

  Quote from timanth;488241:

  
  What it all boils down to is because this game is much more dynamic than typical hotkey-mashing MMOs, everything becomes situational. Fiona and Evie all have more situations where they can output extremely high DPS, whereas Lann does not, even though he might have a few situations where he can pour on more DPS than the female classes. Thus, on average, he's not able to do as much damage as the other two.

  
  
  The fact that Lann is already doing lower damage is reason enough for complaint, since he was supposed to be a dps machine anyway.
  However, his survivability is also the lowest out of all the current classes. That's the main complaint.
• paladin wrote on 2011-06-24 22:42

  Quote from Phanterz;488406:

  The fact that Lann is already doing lower damage is reason enough for complaint, since he was supposed to be a dps machine anyway.
  However, his survivability is also the lowest out of all the current classes. That's the main complaint.

  
  
  Well for a sword lann yea its not acceptable
  For a spear lann did it not say in game
  Youd trade defense for power?
  I can see every bodies viewpoints
  But am for a lann damage buff not survial buff
• Oizen wrote on 2011-06-25 01:04

  Quote from paladin;488541:

  Well for a sword lann yea its not acceptable
  For a spear lann did it not say in game
  Youd trade defense for power?
  I can see every bodies viewpoints
  But am for a lann damage buff not survial buff

  
  
  I want a general buff across the board for Lann, and a fairly large one, theres no reason he should be doing the damage he is now considering he is close range, and practically defenseless.
• Overblood wrote on 2011-06-25 02:51
  Lanns seem alright to me. Some of them need to adapt a little better though. A lot of them get used to mindless spinning at earlier boats, and don't seem to know much else.
• Four wrote on 2011-06-27 08:47
  Honestly from personal experience, as a Spear Lann I've outdamaged every other class I've come across, but only when I'm giving it my all. Which leads me to conclude that a major decider of a Lann's DPS is the amount effort you put into the fight.
• Conor wrote on 2011-06-27 08:49

  Quote from Four;492052:

  Honestly from personal experience, as a Spear Lann I've outdamaged every other class I've come across, but only when I'm giving it my all. Which leads me to conclude that a major decider of a Lann's DPS is the amount effort you put into the fight.

  
  
  I mean, this I guess.
  But one of the ultimate rules of DPS: You can't dish out damage when you're dead, which is a fate many spear Lanns have.
• Dagurasu wrote on 2011-06-27 15:44

  Quote from Conor;492054:

  I mean, this I guess.
  But one of the ultimate rules of DPS: You can't dish out damage when you're dead, which is a fate many spear Lanns have.

  
  You're right, dead dps = zero dps. However, part of maximizing ones DPS is knowing when not to DPS and move away from the thing that will kill you. Seems rather hard for some people to get their heads around that.
• ByunTaengoo wrote on 2011-06-27 20:26

  Quote from timanth;488241:

  
  Balance argument invalid. BT scythe has 65 balance unenchanted, BT spears have 67 balance unenchanted. I've run tests over multiple instances with different spear lanns and the results are always stacked in Evie's favor.
  
  

  
  
  I think we're not clicking here. You're citing anectedotal evidence that your spear hits are hitting harder than gliding fury. The balance system dictates that the damage being dealt in a single hit can vary from 65/67% multiplier to 100% multiplier. You can't just compare like that unless you have an extremely large sample size.