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ThatNerd wrote on 2011-07-06 13:47
Are the sword fionas next in line for QQing for a buff/revamp?
I think they definitely are!
-Next to, or last in damage in most parties
-[IMO] Has a useless skill call ivy sweep
-Hammers blow swords out of the water
-Not as flexible (Ex: 1 Very High damage chargeable smash)
*Who do you think is next?
*Ideas for a sword buff/revamp?
*Disagree? Why?
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Claudia wrote on 2011-07-06 13:58
Ivy Sweep, useless? awhawhawha I like Ivy Sweep.
Also, most of her smashes are pretty good...
I wouldn't necessarily say Sword Fiona is bad...but I personally don't like it and can't wait to get my hands on a hammer. Also, Hammiona was pretty awful until just recently [Karok patch], so if any sort of revamp is coming it won't be for a while I imagine.
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Shirayuki wrote on 2011-07-06 14:00
I'd just expect some more speed on amaranth and the last 2 hits of blossom to make a difference.
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ThatNerd wrote on 2011-07-06 14:04
Quote from Claudia;502429:
Ivy Sweep, useless? awhawhawha I like Ivy Sweep.
Also, most of her smashes are pretty good...
I wouldn't necessarily say Sword Fiona is bad...but I personally don't like it and can't wait to get my hands on a hammer. Also, Hammiona was pretty awful until just recently [Karok patch], so if any sort of revamp is coming it won't be for a while I imagine.
I don't really like ivy sweep cus it's slower than amaranth, and hard to use without getting hit by mobs. I'd rather just sprint smash and blossom/amaranth mobs to death
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Invertex wrote on 2011-07-06 14:13
Quote from Claudia;502429:
Ivy Sweep, useless? awhawhawha I like Ivy Sweep.
Also, most of her smashes are pretty good...
I wouldn't necessarily say Sword Fiona is bad...but I personally don't like it and can't wait to get my hands on a hammer. Also, Hammiona was pretty awful until just recently [Karok patch], so if any sort of revamp is coming it won't be for a while I imagine.
Rebuttal to this and first post.
1. Ivy Sweep is completely useless aside from it's 360 AoE which I rarely use for trash mobs. However trash mobs are usually a moot point with counter -> combos, so I'm ignoring that. It's stamina use is worse than Amaranth, it takes way longer to use, has slightly higher damage, but it loses out to Blossom in damage. (Edit - Oh right, and you can't HSC it quickly, while Blossom (2 hits) and Amaranth are both HSCed really quickly)
2. Damage in parties isn't a good indicator of what damage capability is. You can still hit high damage ranks with Sword, but it's just a skill difference there. Her DPS is the worst by far, which is a far more valid point.
3. I don't see what you mean by "not as flexible". Her current skill set is very flexible (charge move, quick move, DPS move, useless AoE move, good stamina/damage move), it's just not that good at actually doing damage.
The main problem here is that there is no good arguement for why Sword > Hammer, I've only heard "Survivability", which is a terrible arguement as Fiona's survivability is pretty high and losing a tiny bit (not that much really) isn't going to kill you.
I really do think Sword Fiona or Scythe Evie are next for a buff after Lann. Scythe really just needs uncaps for a pretty large damage boost (which will make their DPS comparable to the current "2nd tier" of DPS (Hammer/Staff/Karok)). Sword either needs minor precentile buffs, or minor speed buffs. I'd really love to see them remove the slowdown when you connect your normals as well, it feels so off missing 4 slashes to land a kick.
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Sariyassa wrote on 2011-07-06 14:17
Hey, Ivy Sweep is awesome and pretty easy to use. And that kick's pretty damn powerful. It also makes things fly further, even further than Amaranth Kick (a useless factor, but hey). Although that's just me.
It's also embarrassing for everyone else when it's a Sword Fiona that gets the highest damage on a boss.
Maybe just a boost in her attack speed? Well, I dunno. I'm pretty content with what my Fiona has, but I'm looking forward to that new(?) smash skill.
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23237 wrote on 2011-07-06 14:33
I switched to hammer because of Ivy Sweep's lack of use, honestly. I ranked it to 9, thinking that would help a little. Needless to say, it didn't, and I've wasted 480 AP on a skill I will never use again. I also ranked Amaranth to C in case I decide to go back to sword at some point. But I think the buff that would work best for sword fiona is a speed buff, because Amaranth is pretty powerful, it's just too slow for effective spamming. That's just my opinion, I'm sure all of you can correct me in about 736 ways quite effectively, but I still think Amaranth is too slow, considering you can almost land a stigma and recover in the same amount of time. Again, I might be wrong.
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ThatNerd wrote on 2011-07-06 15:49
Quote from Invertex;502440:
Rebuttal to this and first post.
1. Ivy Sweep is completely useless aside from it's 360 AoE which I rarely use for trash mobs. However trash mobs are usually a moot point with counter -> combos, so I'm ignoring that. It's stamina use is worse than Amaranth, it takes way longer to use, has slightly higher damage, but it loses out to Blossom in damage. (Edit - Oh right, and you can't HSC it quickly, while Blossom (2 hits) and Amaranth are both HSCed really quickly)
2. Damage in parties isn't a good indicator of what damage capability is. You can still hit high damage ranks with Sword, but it's just a skill difference there. Her DPS is the worst by far, which is a far more valid point.
3. I don't see what you mean by "not as flexible". Her current skill set is very flexible (charge move, quick move, DPS move, useless AoE move, good stamina/damage move), it's just not that good at actually doing damage.
The main problem here is that there is no good arguement for why Sword > Hammer, I've only heard "Survivability", which is a terrible arguement as Fiona's survivability is pretty high and losing a tiny bit (not that much really) isn't going to kill you.
I really do think Sword Fiona or Scythe Evie are next for a buff after Lann. Scythe really just needs uncaps for a pretty large damage boost (which will make their DPS comparable to the current "2nd tier" of DPS (Hammer/Staff/Karok)). Sword either needs minor precentile buffs, or minor speed buffs. I'd really love to see them remove the slowdown when you connect your normals as well, it feels so off missing 4 slashes to land a kick.
Replies to your rebuttals~
2.Yeah, DPS is what I meant
3.Let me make this clearer: I meant not as flexible as hammer, meaning Hammer>Sword in terms of flexibilty. I'm not saying they're not flexible at all :P
I don't see why a speed buff would be a beneficial, unless it would make swords as fast as a sword lann. But yes, the MAIN PROBLEM is that swords are inferior to hammers. And yes, survivability is not a good counter arguement.
Suggestions to fix the problem:
-Remove Ivy sweep, and add a better, more efficient smash (LR could use a lift too)
-Give a buff to sword damage percentiles.
Hammers could use a nerf too, since Swionas are jealous of how "OP" they are.
-Maybe limit butterflies to only 2 extra swings?
We also have to consider that SOMEONE has to be at the bottom of the DPS list.
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Invertex wrote on 2011-07-06 16:06
Quote from ThatNerd;502485:
3.Let me make this clearer: I meant not as flexible as hammer, meaning Hammer>Sword in terms of flexibilty. I'm not saying they're not flexible at all :P
I don't see why a speed buff would be a beneficial, unless it would make swords as fast as a sword lann. But yes, the MAIN PROBLEM is that swords are inferior to hammers. And yes, survivability is not a good counter arguement.
Suggestions to fix the problem:
-Remove Ivy sweep, and add a better, more efficient smash (LR could use a lift too)
-Give a buff to sword damage percentiles.
Hammers could use a nerf too, since Swionas are jealous of how "OP" they are.
-Maybe limit butterflies to only 2 extra swings?
We also have to consider that SOMEONE has to be at the bottom of the DPS list.
I don't necesarily agree with completely removing a smash. Most classes have a fairly useless smash that nobody ever uses anyways.
My main thing with the speed part is that I find it exceedingly annoying that I have to miss 4 normal attacks to maximize the speed at which I can use an Amranth. Removing or lowering the delay caused by a normal connecting would add a tiny bit to overall damage as well as make Sword Fiona a bit easier to use (which seems to be the current trend).
Based off what happens to Sword Lanns after the imminent Lann buff, I think Sword Fiona should get precentile increases to pull closer to every other class (as of now, Sword DPS is barely worth noting), but still be last.
I also disagree with nerfing Hammers to some extent. As it is, the main problem is that a lot of classes are underpowered compared to others. A few buffs is really all it takes.
Also I still don't understand what you mean about Hammer being more flexible, care to explain?
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Claudia wrote on 2011-07-06 16:45
I was under the impression that hammer gave up flexibility for damage, and vice versa for swords.
But I find that swords suck for anything but 1v1, clearing out trash mobs with anything but Amaranth is a pain.
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Oizen wrote on 2011-07-06 16:49
EVERYONE SHOULD JUST BE AN EVIE/KAROK
[/thread]
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Okitaru wrote on 2011-07-06 17:04
1. Lann's are still butthurt beyond belief.
2. Hammer Fiona's don't do well in bossing at all. They either miss opportunities so that they can live, or die so they do more damage.
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Intex wrote on 2011-07-06 17:08
I've consistently seen Hammer Fionas get the highest scores in raids. Even though I've only recently returned to the game, they can almost do the same damage as a staff Evie, having very high survivability at the same time.
I don't even see enough sword Fionas to give me any impression about them but my guild mates have said sword Fiona is the lowest damage class in the game.
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ThatNerd wrote on 2011-07-06 17:10
Well,
Hammer:
1.Stigma is chargeable, and has decent range. You can apply it situations when a fomor is running at you, or when they are charging something (Ex. Thor)
2. Butterfly is easily spam-able, and has amazing damage
3. LR does great and quick damage
VS.
Sword:
1.Amaranth is just a single powerful hit that's equivalent to a butterfly, but has more range
2.Blossom quick, good damage but with ehhh 2nd and 3rd hits
(Leaving out LR because it doesn't deal that much damage, and you would probably always fit a blossom in any situation)
Notice how hammers can adapt better.
-When the boss is down, they can spin2win > spending several seconds to do another amaranth
-When the boss is running to, or around you, you can unleash a powerful stigma > amaranth's damage or crappy ivy
-LR for hammers replaces blossom
Maybe i have the definition of flexibility wrong, iunno
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Invertex wrote on 2011-07-06 17:12
Quote from Okabe;502539:
1. Lann's are still butthurt beyond belief.
2. Hammer Fiona's don't do well in bossing at all. They either miss opportunities so that they can live, or die so they do more damage.
This is talking about after any Lann rebalancing, which we all know is going to happen.
The second statement is just incorrect as far as I know. I'm not a major Hammer main, but I've seen plenty of Hammer solos to know that Hammers are not handicapped for bossing (and these solos were pre-buff).
Quote from ThatNerd;502547:
Well,
Hammer:
1.Stigma is chargeable, and has decent range. You can apply it situations when a fomor is running at you, or when they are charging something (Ex. Thor)
2. Butterfly is easily spam-able, and has amazing damage
3. LR does great and quick damage
VS.
Sword:
1.Amaranth is just a single powerful hit that's equivalent to a butterfly, but has more range
2.Blossom quick, good damage but with ehhh 2nd and 3rd hits
(Leaving out LR because it doesn't deal that much damage, and you would probably always fit a blossom in any situation)
Notice how hammers can adapt better.
-When the boss is down, they can spin2win > spending several seconds to do another amaranth
-When the boss is running to, or around you, you can unleash a powerful stigma > amaranth's damage or crappy ivy
-LR for hammers replaces blossom
Maybe i have the definition of flexibility wrong, iunno
The main difference here is that Hammers have spin2win. Otherwise we're just looking at a damage gap, which should exist as Hammer is supposed to be the slower but more damaging option. Otherwise you've just stated that Amaranth = Stigma, Orchid (?) = Blossom, and Amaranth is Sword's main DPS option (which is terrible, but that's the main point here. Sword DPS is bad).
Also I do think Blossom provides better DPS at the cost of more stamina, which Butterfly also has an issue with. People don't bash2win though as the damage caused by a Blossom doesn't warrant the use of 3 SP bars (that and you have to LL between blossoms).
Really the major problem here is that Butterfly is just really powerful now, which shoves Hammer DPS to one of the best and leaves Swords as the worst. However, I still don't like nerfing a character in a PvE game to create balance.