While Staff Evie is OP for raids/parties

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sakraycore wrote on 2011-09-21 09:12

I think she is harder to use to solo raids.

Like just yesterday I tried to solo revived fear (easy mission....in a party). I have 12K matt, 3.5K def (6k+ after stone proc), and 18ASPD. I set up the golem and had a mana pistol but still died after I got the boss to around 1/2 health on normal mode.

I haven't tried with scythe yet (I'll have around 12.8K matt with it though - scythes usually have around 700 more matt), but I'm positive it will go a lot more smoother simply because blink is just amazing mobility compared to mana amber (which makes you a sitting duck). Though I'll agree for anything that can be tanked by a staff and finished in a couple of spells, staff is just too good.

Discuss.
Oizen wrote on 2011-09-21 09:44

but you forget, the only thing that matters in this game are team raids, since pretty much every basis of an argument of balancing is made on them.

Anyway, I've seen some crazy Evie soloing of these things. But it takes skill, just like lann does at soloing
Yanm wrote on 2011-09-21 10:58

I'd say it just boils down to how well you know the boss. I've seen an Evie solo Titan with Staff. Ever since I saw that video, I've often wondered why is it that the Evies that don't lag Mana Amber everything? For example, Titan's 3 hit punch kills their mana amber and they take damage from the 3rd hit. Often, this is how I see them die. Then, his spear throw breaks it as well, and my fiona friend has ended up getting hit because she egg-formed WAY before he threw them, so he got stuck in the corner because of her amber (It was pretty funny :D). I bet if you practiced on him more, you'd be able to solo. There has to be SOME attacks that you can just dodge with Flying Sparrow....Mana Amber isn't everything.
sakraycore wrote on 2011-09-21 11:41

For titan, don't amber too early, time it so you amber just before he begins the 3 hit combo and you should be good to go. Usually what happens is either his first hit sends me flying or I just end up on the other side of him. Flying sparrow may work...then again, it might not. Why would anyone take that risk?

I bet if you practiced on him more, you'd be able to solo.

True...but sometimes you just wanna get something done without any practice. Besides, having to practice goes against the common notion that staff evie is just holding 1 button down aka easy modo.
Yanm wrote on 2011-09-21 12:35

Quote from sakraycore;593546:
For titan, don't amber too early, time it so you amber just before he begins the 3 hit combo and you should be good to go. Usually what happens is either his first hit sends me flying or I just end up on the other side of him. Flying sparrow may work...then again, it might not. Why would anyone take that risk?

True...but sometimes you just wanna get something done without any practice. Besides, having to practice goes against the common notion that staff evie is just holding 1 button down aka easy modo.

For less stamina consumption is my guess? Amber takes a lot of stamina, while flying sparrow doesn't take as much. This can be an example of Flying Sparrow's usefulness at times I guess.

[video=youtube;Y_A8E7gN60c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_A8E7gN60c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/video]
xJac wrote on 2011-09-21 12:36

Use hop, or flying sparrow.

Mana ember in solo is really bad idea, as when you get up, most likely the boss is next to you again. Hopping isn't really that bad, only a few attacks you can't dodge with hop + sprint. Positioning is key. Flying sparrow if you think it will get close, only mana ember if you know you won't be able to dodge at all.

And magic arrow spam2win.

[edit] oh, yea soloing isn't staff's specialty. In party you have other people in close range of boss, so you can safely use magic arrow or spells; while in solo, well you most likely will only be using magic arrow majority of the time, unless you get a knock down or the boss is doing some close range long animation attack.

But note though, staff isn't too bad in solo. She can be decent as well. In terms of not being able to solo, I would say spears' definitely the hardest to be able to solo.
Hexed wrote on 2011-09-21 12:43

Quote from Yanm;593597:
For less stamina consumption is my guess? Amber takes a lot of stamina, while flying sparrow doesn't take as much. This can be an example of Flying Sparrow's usefulness at times I guess.

[video=youtube;Y_A8E7gN60c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_A8E7gN60c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/video]

Was just about to reference that video too.
Gotejjeken wrote on 2011-09-21 14:25

Have you used any other characters to solo revived fear? If not, you don't have much to go by making such an assertion. In this case, it is likely that the boss is still easier to solo as a staff, and you aren't skilled enough with the raid yet.
Invertex wrote on 2011-09-21 14:27

Honestly, it's really easy to solo anything prior to Boat 6.
Trans, spam, win.

Without trans it's different, but I find you have to focus more on survival over DPS in solos.
MareneCorp wrote on 2011-09-21 14:46

Quote from xJac;593599:
Use hop, or flying sparrow.

Mana ember in solo is really bad idea, as when you get up, most likely the boss is next to you again. Hopping isn't really that bad, only a few attacks you can't dodge with hop + sprint. Positioning is key. Flying sparrow if you think it will get close, only mana ember if you know you won't be able to dodge at all.

And magic arrow spam2win.

[edit] oh, yea soloing isn't staff's specialty. In party you have other people in close range of boss, so you can safely use magic arrow or spells; while in solo, well you most likely will only be using magic arrow majority of the time, unless you get a knock down or the boss is doing some close range long animation attack.

But note though, staff isn't too bad in solo. She can be decent as well. In terms of not being able to solo, I would say spears' definitely the hardest to be able to solo.

I don't really know, I am just a decent spear user, but the no-knockdown frames spin2win gives can be an advantage if you need to go up close and personal, with decent armor and HP you would be able to dish out massive continuous damage. Spear attacks are also slightly weaker than a sword's but has (I experimented with this myself) a higher critical rate and faster attack speed, which means more gliding furies pulled off and more attacks going down in time, which in turn leads to getting out of the way faster.
sakraycore wrote on 2011-09-21 16:17

Quote from Gotejjeken;593746:
Have you used any other characters to solo revived fear? If not, you don't have much to go by making such an assertion. In this case, it is likely that the boss is still easier to solo as a staff, and you aren't skilled enough with the raid yet.

Lol xD

I just went in with a scythe and only managed to take off 1/10 of the boss's bar, even with trans. I dunno what happened there, i just kinda gave up. Lol
I don't think I was blinking correctly because even after a blink it was still hitting me. But anyways then I went in a party and massacred it using staff ;x
BizarreJuju wrote on 2011-09-21 18:16

How are they OP in party/raid? I only see them as good support (healing, freezing, anti-gravity SP). But when it comes to soloing raids, I think its same for all class. People just need to spend some time learning, memorizing, and how2dodge attacks. Some party members I see rely on raid boss aggroing other members while they attack distracted boss, then get screwed over when the boss aggros them. Personally I dont see the point of soloing raid boss besides lulz, show, and just practicing.

Sidenote: I still run into few Karoks around their 65+ that cant time their absorb shock and when not to absorb shock 8D
Invertex wrote on 2011-09-21 22:31

Quote from MareneCorp;593798:
I don't really know, I am just a decent spear user, but the no-knockdown frames spin2win gives can be an advantage if you need to go up close and personal, with decent armor and HP you would be able to dish out massive continuous damage. Spear attacks are also slightly weaker than a sword's but has (I experimented with this myself) a higher critical rate and faster attack speed, which means more gliding furies pulled off and more attacks going down in time, which in turn leads to getting out of the way faster.

Gliding Fury is still a random chance, you're still gambling with what can effectively be thousands of HP at a time. Not to mention your HP is always draining due to the requirement of constant Fury Infusion. Even with nearly 7000 defense on my Fiona, I'm still often taking hits that do over 1000 damage. That leads me to beieve tanking is not a viable option for most things past Irukul. Spear Lann specializes by being able to sustain constant stamina usage with Fury Infusion, which sadly isn't the easiest thing to do.

Quote from BizarreJuju;594081:
How are they OP in party/raid? I only see them as good support (healing, freezing, anti-gravity SP). But when it comes to soloing raids, I think its same for all class. People just need to spend some time learning, memorizing, and how2dodge attacks. Some party members I see rely on raid boss aggroing other members while they attack distracted boss, then get screwed over when the boss aggros them. Personally I dont see the point of soloing raid boss besides lulz, show, and just practicing.

Sidenote: I still run into few Karoks around their 65+ that cant time their absorb shock and when not to absorb shock 8D

Main reason people consider Staff Evie OP is that her Magic Arrow spam is one of the best damage dealers in the game (below Spear Lann spin2win, and tied with Hammer Fiona spin2win). Combine that with the whole support aspect, and you get a character that does everything better then most other characters. But soloing is more of a challenge thing, and I do think it improves your overall playing skill if you're able to solo later raids.

Also I agree so much with the reliance of boss aggroing other party members for some people. It's a valid tactic, yes, but I see so many people rely on this to survive. It's why some Evies panic amber everything, why some Lanns can't time Slip Dash, why some Fionas have no concept what it is to not HS, and why those Karoks can't use Absorb Shock.
voltar wrote on 2011-09-21 23:42

Quote from MareneCorp;593798:
...but the no-knockdown frames spin2win gives can be an advantage if you need to go up close and personal, with decent armor and HP you would be able to dish out massive continuous damage. Spear attacks are also slightly weaker than a sword's but has (I experimented with this myself) a higher critical rate and faster attack speed, which means more gliding furies pulled off and more attacks going down in time, which in turn leads to getting out of the way faster.

if you're going to LLLLR on a boss:
1: you're going to circle smaller bosses so they are constantly turning around.
2: you were 4 swings away from a large boss then you're going to gf.
3: you're in a(n) all/primarily spear group going for crit-smash-spam stun locking the boss to death.

so defense and health doesn't really enter into it. it's the mobility of other classes that show the lack of capability of staves. having a 66-staff, 63-longsword (yeah i know), 62-spear, 56...karok; i can tell you each excell at different bosses (except karok which is easy mode for at least everything i've done so far...matter of fact played solo for the most part since getting absorb).

MA is pretty awesome but only because it's constsant damage and you don't have to move...which is what makes it difficulty to solo since you can't move while you're doing it...staff solo if pretty much:

pew, hop, pew, hop, sparrow, circle around, repeat.

which takes the dps out of it.
xJac wrote on 2011-09-22 08:47

Quote from MareneCorp;593798:
I don't really know, I am just a decent spear user, but the no-knockdown frames spin2win gives can be an advantage if you need to go up close and personal, with decent armor and HP you would be able to dish out massive continuous damage. Spear attacks are also slightly weaker than a sword's but has (I experimented with this myself) a higher critical rate and faster attack speed, which means more gliding furies pulled off and more attacks going down in time, which in turn leads to getting out of the way faster.

Okay, spin against any boss that presents a challenge, I would like to see how you can solo them as a "decent spears".

Either you die using spin2die, or you win using spin2win.

Spin is a bad source of damage for spears, LR or LLR then GF has more dps while sprint smash then GF is much safer. How many hits can you eat from a boss? I would say at most 5, any higher number the boss becomes a piece of cake, for any class. And obviously, the boss won't die to your spin in just 5 hits' timeframe, that makes spin a bad bad tactic, espically in solo.

Back to topic:

Like people said before, Staff is OP in party because Ice spear, Blind Arrow, and Magic Arrow all have quite long range, which allows Staff to safely move away from harm by either using hop/flying sparrow/mana ember if the boss decide to focus them. Not only that, Blind Arrow and Ice Spear has huge percentile, works extremely well for burst damage, while Magic Arrow spam works extremely well for dps. Guess what, staff is also much easier to effectively deal damage, as oppose to hammer or spears. Simply because of the range advantage, staff can ignore all the close range attack from boss, and just continuously dealing damage, while other classes have to block/dodge/dash/blink.

However, when it comes to solo, staff loses the range advantages because the boss is always focusing on staff, and keep moving into close range of staff. That makes Ice Spear and Blind Arrow requires a good knowledge of the boss movement to pull off, and Magic Arrow can't be constantly spammed. But that doesn't necessary make staff any less in terms of solo.

I have used staff to solo up to boat 5 right after revamp, it's doable, just requires a lot more knowledge of boss' hit-box (luckily for me, I main lann, so there's no need to go through learning all over agin).

In fact, it's actually a tad easier than my lann, as magic arrow (which will be your main source of damage) has range advantage (meaning you don't have to move often if the boss moved too far) and is instant pull off (as opposed to other class, any good damage source requires quite a time to pull off).

You also have hop, which most people underestimated its full potential. It was the fastest move to move away from a spot before flying sparrow, and it still is the only no stamina computation move.

Sprint/Hop + Magic Arrow Spam can take care most of the bosses, with a few that you need flying sparrow or mana ember. Abuse that boss turn rate, all bosses have it, and they suck at turning after initiating an attack. Your job, is to know when to hop, and where to hop. Then you can watch the boss miss their attack by a tiny bit and get owned by your magic arrow spam.

Here's just an example of using hop effectively. I kind of lag when I am recording, so I had to clear off the mob and the obstacles before actually engaging in the boss fight. (probably also hit the boss quite a few times before the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=398cHVCiUUo