The Mind VS The Brain

• Shizuo wrote on 2011-11-11 23:03
  Okay...another philosophy thread. Hopefully, this one will turn out better.
  
  The question here is simple:
  
  Is the mind the same thing as the brain? For example, is saying "It's all clear in my mind" the same thing as saying "It's all clear in my brain"? Why or why not?
  
  Again, there's no right or wrong answer. If you respond to what someone else says, please try to be nice. Respect that people believe different things.
• Yoorah wrote on 2011-11-12 00:21
  The brain can be seen as a mechanical (technically, chemical) device that stores and can process data. Like a computer. The mind would be the software that's running on it. :P
• Shizuo wrote on 2011-11-12 02:51

  Quote from Yoorah;657403:

  The brain can be seen as a mechanical (technically, chemical) device that stores and can process data. Like a computer. The mind would be the software that's running on it. :P

  
  
  So if the mind didn't exist, would the brain still work?
  And it's a funny thing that you brought up computers, because someone in my class said the EXACT same thing.
  Okay, story time. You can ignore this if you want lol (And it might be slightly off-topic, but it can still relate a bit)
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]I asked the guy, "So do you think that a human brain functions the exact same way as a computer?"
  and he replied, "Yes."
  "But a computer can only do what it's programmed to do. It's incapable of independent thought."
  But then he said, "You can program a computer to think."
  This was when I decided to bring my father into this. Reason being: He's a computer programmer with about 30 years of experience. He said that at this point in time, computers cannot think for themselves. The way computers operate is very linear, he said. It may appear to be thinking, but it really can only do what it's told. It can compare A to B and process information.
  Here's what I thought though. Sure, humans do that too. They process information and store data (as you said). But what I think separates humans from computers is that humans are capable of thinking for themselves. Humans can act on their own. You can tell someone to do something, but that doesn't mean that they'll do it. Humans also have personality and you know...consciousness. Computers can't go against what they were programmed to do. They can't say, "I don't want to do that". I don't think that computers, at this point in time, are really capable of thinking for themselves.
  Don't worry. I know you weren't saying that; just making a comparison, but what you said just reminded me of this xD[/SPOILER]
• Yoorah wrote on 2011-11-12 03:13
  Without a mind, the brain would be like a computer with no software in it. It wouldn't be physically broken, but it still wouldn't work... :p
  
  And your story is an interesting side-topic. There are two issues that you need to address in order to build a computer with the capabilities of a human brain (and mind). On the hardware side, you have the chip design issue. As your dad said, current computers are little more than really high powered calculators. All they can really do is add numbers... which has served us quite well, because that was the purpose of the original computers we built, and many more ever since then.
  
  But the brain doesn't work on the same principle. You need a different kind of design for that; one that mimics neurons and synapses. And this is where IBM delivers. :)
  

  Quote from IEEE Spectrum:

  Researchers at IBM reported yesterday that they have created two prototype computer chips whose operation is silicon’s best answer to the hyperefficient functioning of animal brains. Both were fabricated using 45-nanometer silicon-on-insulator technology, and are set up to mimic the arrangement and behavior of neurons and synapses.
  
  But there is one important difference between the chips. One of the 256-neuron chips has 65 536 synapses that make on-chip learning possible. According to an IBM spokesperson, every bit of data to which the chip is exposed causes the chip to “find new neural connections.” In other words, it learns from its experiences and rewires itself in response.
  ...

  
  Read the rest if interested: IBM Presents Brainlike Chips
  
  And even after solving the hardware issue, there's still software (the mind) to deal with. How would you write a program that worked like the human mind? I personally have no idea, and I'm not sure how much progress, if any, there is currently going on in this field.
• Shizuo wrote on 2011-11-12 03:36
  Hm, I think I see what you're saying then. So the brain is the part that does the simpler things like what computers do, but the "mind" is where all that other complicated stuff comes from, like personality, consciousness, morality, etc? If that is the case, then I think I agree with that.
  
  They are separate things, but one is needed in order for the other to work.
  I believe that if it is indeed possible for a computer (or program) to run exactly like a human mind, then it wouldn't be for a long time.
  
  One thing that I forgot to bring up in my story was how I brought up that humans are very complicated. People have so many different sides to them and their behavior can change depending on the situation. In other words, they're unpredictable. Can a computer do something like that? Currently, I don't think so. However, as my instructor pointed out during the argument, we can't make certain statements about the future. Obviously, because it hasn't happened yet. We can make predictions, but that's it.
  
  But that article made me think that we're getting there ._.; However, I still think it'd be very hard to program a computer to have its own personality.
• Mentosftw wrote on 2011-11-12 03:57
  Well don't forget the older regions of the brain that just function for motor control. I believe if there was no mind, the organism would still operate and function normally.
• psyal wrote on 2011-11-12 04:28
  Well, I would say that the brain is a computer. It may be a computer built differently from what you'd buy, but it's built for a specific purpose.
  
  As for the "cannot think for themselves", that's somewhat misleading.
  Have you ever tried meditating, or just tried sitting somewhere and clear your mind completely? Well, what do you think would happen to you if there was no stimulation to start thinking again?
  This situation is pretty much what a comper is doing when "not doing anything".
  
  Many aspects you see in a computer can also be seen in people. A person simply has a built-in specialized OS.
• EndlessDreams wrote on 2011-11-12 04:37
  They are supposed to be different things, but if you interchange them, most people would understand what you mean. They probably aren't going to go all philosophical on you.
  
  A mind can change drastically when parts of the brain is modified... such as frontal lobe lobotomy.