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Aha! Pascal's Wager



To those who are a bit confused, let me try and re-phrase the points:


  1. God exists or doesn't exist.
  2. Therefore, a "game" occurs, like Heads or Tails. There are two outcomes. God exists or God does not exist.
  3. No matter how strongly you believe in either side, that said belief has no effect on the outcome. The existence of God is not subject to the whims of humanity. Therefore, either option (Heads or Tails) are possible.
  4. You must make a decision. It's not optional. You either believe in God or do not. There is no middle ground.
  5. So, let us see where either option leads. If you believe in God and God does exist, then you inherit eternal happiness. If God does not exist, you neither gain or lose anything. However, if you do not believe in God and he does exist you inherit eternal suffering. If God does not exist, you neither gain or lose anything.
  6. Therefore, wager - without hesitation that God does exist. There is an infinite amount to gain and nothing to lose.


    To those who prefer a visual diagram of what I just wrote:
    [SPOILER="Spoiler"]
    [Image: http://puu.sh/kf1Q]
    [/SPOILER]

    Great! So yeah. What's the problem? Well ... here's something to think about.

    Point 1: Pascal's Wager makes the assumption that knowledge of God's existence cannot be proved or disproved - it's a wager. However, this is not the case. Human beings are capable, through reason, of acknowledging the existence of God. It may consist of an incomplete knowledge of God, but it is some knowledge of God nonetheless. Even within the scientific community, there are very few people who can be described as absolute atheists.

    Even Richard Dawkins admitted that he can’t be certain that there is no God.
    Therefore, what constitutes a person's spiritual beliefs, is not mere "coin toss/chance" - it's a series of conscious thoughts that arrive to that said conclusion.

    Point 2: There is no mention of cost/hardship of belief. Pascal's Wager grants the illusion that all a person needs to do is believe in God and they are fine. However, it's not simply believing in God that get's you to heaven. In Christianity, a person has to accept Jesus as their savior in order to enter heaven. Even then, following Jesus requires/prompts a change in behavior and character. As such, following Jesus brings with it - the hatred of the world (John 15:19)

    Pascal's Wager, since it was originally focused on the Christian God, makes no mention of any of this. As such, it reduces a bonafide faith in Christ to mere credulity.

    Point 3: As a an apologetic or evangelistic method, it's focused on a risk and reward outlook. According to Pascal's Wager, a person is choosing to believe and obey God on the basis of receiving heaven as a reward.
    Heaven is a wonderful place, however it's not an achievement.
    Heaven is obtained via the change in the heart of a person that's accepted Christ as their savior.

    It's the same principle behind brimstone preaching. If you "convert" someone to Christianity based on fear of going to Hell, the moment that fear is gone - so is any belief.

    Anyway, I find Pascal's Wager to be an interesting philosophical thought. However, it shouldn't be used as a prime example or a definition for Christianity.
  • Episkey wrote on 2012-03-11 07:12
    Quote from EndlessDreams;803894:
    Are you serious? Do you not listen to other religious people besides your own church... or maybe you just only listen to your own beliefs?

    He just did already in his quote. Any of the three major religions are the most clear "modern" examples. Not every denomination in any of those three large "modern" religions are like that one way or another because there are too much denominations/fractions in each religion. It is pretty hard to describe everyone in a particular religion is this way or that since they are all just beliefs.

    You can even go a step further, and create your own religion that does this as well. Making up your own religion doesn't mean that religion is any more valid (or invalid) than any other major religions. New religions and denominations start this way.


    No. I do listen to other religious people, that's precisely why I asked that question.
    I just wanted a specific example.

    I was going to say something that I wanted to make before, but I feel it's kinda of a moot point right now.

    But, perhaps I can steer this in an appropriate direction. Out of those 3 modern "major" (If we are thinking about the same thing) religions, what do they all have in common?

    Quote from Bakuryu;803897:
    Why get like this? ._.
    I feel like it's a reasonable argument against Pascal's Wager...

    And I can only think of Islam right now, which sends you to Jahannam (hell equivalent) for ignoring Allah. And now I take my leave because religious talk bores me, and just wanted to input my opinion.


    Oh. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound negative.
    I just wanted something specific, a name of a particular religion.

    Something like your Islam example.

    EDIT:

    Uh ... Is this post the second post of the thread? It should be after Baku's second post O_O
  • EndlessDreams wrote on 2012-03-11 07:17
    All three of your points doesn't really address the problem of the wager. There is no knowledge of "God" because there is no way to know really know what "God" is. "God" has not made him/herself/it/themselves clear to us. All religious books are invalid in teaching us what "God" really is because all those books are written by people.

    Points #2 and #3 are just merely your religious beliefs. It doesn't apply to all religions. It doesn't even apply to all Christian denominations.

    Pascal Wager only assumes that only one religion is the true religion, and that the person can either choose that religion or non-belief of the true religion.

    With hundreds of thousands of religions and denomination out there, it is impossible to tell which religion is the true religion until whatever true deity (or deities) tells us in a clear and concise way. Most religions say that if you don't believe in their religion (or even denomination), you go to hell (or its equivalence).
  • Bakuryu wrote on 2012-03-11 07:20
    What endlessdreams is pretty much how I feel about this.

    You for example, you believe in Christianity's god, say you are wrong, there is a god, just not that one, another one that also sends you to eternal suffering for not worshiping him or whatever, you still get eternal suffering.
    It's not a coin toss, if anything, it's a thousand sides dice, where one single number wins (or nothing happens).
  • Episkey wrote on 2012-03-11 07:38
    Quote from EndlessDreams;803849:

    Points #2 and #3 are just merely your religious beliefs. It doesn't apply to all religions. It doesn't even apply to all Christian denominations.

    Pascal Wager only assumes that only one religion is the true religion, and that the person can either choose that religion or non-belief of the true religion.


    Pascal was a Catholic, his Wager was specified for the Christian God. So, that's why some of my points were talking about Christianity.
    My post was finding fault for using Pascal's Wager as a method to convince people to believe in God.

    Quote from EndlessDreams;803849:

    Most religions say that if you don't believe in their religion (or even denomination), you go to hell (or its equivalence).


    Quote from Bakuryu;803854:
    What endlessdreams is pretty much how I feel about this.

    You for example, you believe in Christianity's god, say you are wrong, there is a god, just not that one, another one that also sends you to eternal suffering for not worshiping him or whatever, you still get eternal suffering.


    Really now? I didn't delve into this because my post would have been way to long - but since you both mentioned it.
    If what you both say is true, I want you both to provide specific examples for belief systems in which not following them constitutes you going to some form of "Hell".

    Shouldn't be to difficult, I guess. But, I honestly have to disagree with this claim.
  • EndlessDreams wrote on 2012-03-11 08:01
    Quote from Episkey;803870:

    If what you both say is true, I want you both to provide specific examples for belief systems in which not following them constitutes you going to some form of "Hell".


    Are you serious? Do you not listen to other religious people besides your own church... or maybe you just only listen to your own beliefs?

    He just did already in his quote. Any of the three major religions are the most clear "modern" examples. Not every denomination in any of those three large "modern" religions are like that one way or another because there are too much denominations/fractions in each religion. It is pretty hard to describe everyone in a particular religion is this way or that since they are all just beliefs.

    You can even go a step further, and create your own religion that does this as well. Making up your own religion doesn't mean that religion is any more valid (or invalid) than any other major religions. New religions and denominations start this way.
  • Bakuryu wrote on 2012-03-11 08:03
    Really now?
    Why get like this? ._.
    I feel like it's a reasonable argument against Pascal's Wager...

    And I can only think of Islam right now, which sends you to Jahannam (hell equivalent) for ignoring Allah. And now I take my leave because religious talk bores me, and just wanted to input my opinion.
  • Milk wrote on 2012-03-11 10:26
    o.o Whoa people got touchy with this subject.

    I honestly did not even notice the title of the piece before you made this thread.
  • Hannah's Lover wrote on 2012-03-11 10:42
    Woah, an this is getting heated within the first few points.

    Guys, this is supposed to be a discussion.
    So if you worship the nine divines, you can put your input in, but let's try not to turn this into a fist fight.

    @EndlessDreams

    Well, he's a Christian, and because we do not believe in such Gods we have no reason to listen to any other religion.

    To us there's Heaven and Hell, and to those of us who have some doubt there is nothing at all.
    Because Pascal was.. was it Catholic?
    Any other Gods added to Pascal's Wager would be invalid.
    Sure, if we're wrong there are millions of different possibilities, but we only think of two.