Blaze, Thunder, or Fireball?

• DAEMANO wrote on 2010-07-14 06:58
  My first post cause i finally feel like I can add something to the conversation.
  
  First, to answer your question:
  Get Thunder first, its more versatile than Blaze or Fireball. Rank it with Mana Shield to build your mana pool so that you can actually use it when u need to.
  
  ***Now, chiming in with an end game strat here so prolly won't help to much early on but will give you something to look forward to, or perhaps you can figure out a variation that works with your ranks.
  
  I use this combo. Thunder (r1) with a fully upgraded for speed Crystal Lightning Wand, combo'd with Blaze (r2), and it's pretty freaking devastating.
  
  1. Cast Thunder (since r1 there's a 6 second delay between the Lightning bolt, till the Thunder comes crashing). The fomor will be stunned by the initial lightning bolt.
  
  2. Run up to the monster and give him 1+1 Wand strikes, do this to setup the Blaze knockdown max damage.
  
  3. Start your Blaze during the second wand strike. Monster gets knocked back and hit very hard with explosive damage (Max for Blaze).
  
  4. Watch as your initial Thunder strike comes crashing down on the poor monster that just got exploded by Blaze. Do this with 5 charges and you just ruined his night.
  
  / On a 5 charge Thunder strike this will K.O. just about anything outside of Hardmode and Field Bosses. Especially b/c you have several chances to crit.
  // After step 4 you should immediately start loading Thunder again (don't wait and watch the carnage).
  /// Never added up the total damage from this, but I'm sure it's ugly (especially when it crits). Maybe I'll record a video
  
  Dae
• Beepuke wrote on 2010-07-14 11:41
  Ah, ranking thunder has practicality for doing rafting for exploration as a giant. And I love thunder overall.
• Yojimbo wrote on 2010-07-14 14:19
  If it were me, I'd probably rank Blaze, as it adds more useful stats and has better synergy with giants.
  
  But personally, I've preferred to go down the path of alchemy, saving that MP for use with Mana Shield. Just got the master title for Barrier Spikes yesterday (+12% protection is quite nice). The idea is to put up barriers and launch alchemy fireballs (6-7 second load time) whenever I need some "ranged" area attacks.
• Justified wrote on 2010-07-15 03:29
  Honestly, now that we have Blaze, I think Thunder is the least useful of the 4 skills. MaxMP is overrated unless you use Mana Shield (which most people don't). The only real trump Thunder holds is at rafting.
  
  As for the "devastating Thunder+Blaze combo" - an upgraded Crown Ice Wand with +28% Ice Damage puts Ice Spear at 2,496 in 11 seconds compared to 178 Crystal Lightning Wand's 2,580 in 15.4 seconds. The kicker is that Ice Spear is much cleaner and gives a full knockback bonus to Blaze, which will result in thousands more than the 2+Blaze that Thunder allows.
• DAEMANO wrote on 2010-07-15 08:10

  Quote from Justified;93705:

  Honestly, now that we have Blaze, I think Thunder is the least useful of the 4 skills. MaxMP is overrated unless you use Mana Shield (which most people don't). The only real trump Thunder holds is at rafting.
  
  As for the "devastating Thunder+Blaze combo" - an upgraded Crown Ice Wand with +28% Ice Damage puts Ice Spear at 2,496 in 11 seconds compared to 178 Crystal Lightning Wand's 2,580 in 15.4 seconds. The kicker is that Ice Spear is much cleaner and gives a full knockback bonus to Blaze, which will result in thousands more than the 2+Blaze that Thunder allows.

  
  
  A few things:
  
  1) Please explain what you mean by "much cleaner".
  
  2) I've gotten full knockback bonus with Blaze+Thunder countless times. Thousands more damage, I don't think so if you're doing the combo right. I don't see Thunder listed in your signature. Do you use it at a high level at all?
  
  3) The OP didn't ask about IS. Glad you have it though and are so enthusiastic about sharing your experience with it.
  
  4) Isn't Blaze+IS gonna get all nerfy in like G11/G12?
• Justified wrote on 2010-07-15 09:25

  Quote from DAEMANO;93891:

  A few things:
  
  1) Please explain what you mean by "much cleaner".
  
  2) I've gotten full knockback bonus with Blaze+Thunder countless times. Thousands more damage, I don't think so if you're doing the combo right. I don't see Thunder listed in your signature. Do you use it at a high level at all?
  
  3) The OP didn't ask about IS. Glad you have it though and are so enthusiastic about sharing your experience with it.
  
  4) Isn't Blaze+IS gonna get all nerfy in like G11/G12?

  
  
  1. Cleaner in that you know exactly how mobs will land, unlike Thunder which will scatter mobs.
  
  2. Full knockback bonus on Blaze only works on already knocked down mobs. It's impossible to get the full bonus on a full charge using the technique you described. In addition, all the mobs that you didn't hit with your wand will have ZERO knockback bonus because they were only hit by the initial Thunder (which only stuns and no knockback amount). This is why your explosions do varied amounts of damage to the main target and the splash victims, since the bonus is calculated on a per-mob basis.
  If you are determined to say that my explanation is wrong, then please post a short video of you using that method. I already know how the mechanics work, and I don't see how Blaze+Thunder can take advantage of a full bonus, fully charge, on all targeted mobs like IS can.
  
  3.It may be in OP's interest to learn IS and rank that instead since Thunder doesn't shine at any specific non-rafting task anymore (either FB, IS, or mostly Blaze will trump it). Whether he does or doesn't, I'm just pointing out that it has very strong points that should be considered since all of these skills will sink at least 4 full rebirths of AP.
  
  4. I honestly don't know about that, since I don't pay that much attention to future changes. But IMO, it's worth ranking and using until that day comes.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-07-15 09:34
  I thought the nerf already occurred when it was released in Korea.
  
  Before you could charge Blaze as long as you wanted (for possibly infinite damage). That was test server, however.
  
  Then when it was released, it was nerfed to a max charge of 3 seconds. And less damage when not using a Combat Wand.
  
  The only future nerf that occurs is that explosion radius nerf.
• Archibald wrote on 2010-07-15 12:33
  hmm Deamano Maybe you could meet me in game I'm interested to see how your using this combo. We could test in shadowcast city Hard or something like that.
• DAEMANO wrote on 2010-07-15 15:42

  Quote from Justified;93924:

  1. Cleaner in that you know exactly how mobs will land, unlike Thunder which will scatter mobs.
  
  2. Full knockback bonus on Blaze only works on already knocked down mobs. It's impossible to get the full bonus on a full charge using the technique you described. In addition, all the mobs that you didn't hit with your wand will have ZERO knockback bonus because they were only hit by the initial Thunder (which only stuns and no knockback amount). This is why your explosions do varied amounts of damage to the main target and the splash victims, since the bonus is calculated on a per-mob basis.
  If you are determined to say that my explanation is wrong, then please post a short video of you using that method. I already know how the mechanics work, and I don't see how Blaze+Thunder can take advantage of a full bonus, fully charge, on all targeted mobs like IS can.
  
  3.It may be in OP's interest to learn IS and rank that instead since Thunder doesn't shine at any specific non-rafting task anymore (either FB, IS, or mostly Blaze will trump it). Whether he does or doesn't, I'm just pointing out that it has very strong points that should be considered since all of these skills will sink at least 4 full rebirths of AP.
  
  4. I honestly don't know about that, since I don't pay that much attention to future changes. But IMO, it's worth ranking and using until that day comes.

  
  
  1. Cleaner in that sense, ok, but I'm Blazing prior to the Thunder crashing down and scattering the mob, this is the part you were missing when you made that comment.
  
  2. Once again, Blazing after the initial Lightning bolt stun but prior to the Thunder bolts crashing. It isn't impossible to get the full bonus this way, I do it all the time. Please re-read my initial post for context.
  
  Additionally my initial post dealt with attacking a single monster for excellent damage, the whole mob will get Blaze splash plus full Thunder damage. My post was not to compare Blaze+Thnder vs Blaze+IS (which btw will get nerfed for the IS+Blaze combo that you describe in a future update), but instead to point out that Blaze+Thunder work quite well together indeed. Once again, you didn't gather the context of my post.
  
  Furthermore, it doesn't even appear that you use Thunder since you didn't reply to my query about your Thunder level, so I'd love to know where your Blaze+Thunder at a high rank expertise comes from. Provide this and then maybe I'll go through the effort of making you a video. Since really, I answered the OP's query about Blaze, Thunder, of Fireball. I'm kinda wondering where all this anti-thunder passion of yours is coming from.
  
  3. Thunder shines at more than rafting for sure (many ppl have chimed in this thread in support of it), but even if it was just rafting, that might be enough for the purposes of earning exploration exp, getting mats/semi-rare items, while simultaneously power leveling. This it is excellent for.
  
  4. You should know about notable future changes before making a hardline recommendation for a long term skill. As you noted takes AT LEAST 4 RB's to get the aforementioned skills to a decent level, but probably closer to 6 or 8 since the OP is just starting out with them. Lastly, try to relax a lil bit man, it's just a game.
  
  

  Quote from Archibald;93977:

  hmm Deamano Maybe you could meet me in game I'm interested to see how your using this combo. We could test in shadowcast city Hard or something like that.

  
  
  Sure man, anytime
• Syrion wrote on 2010-07-15 19:48

  Quote from DAEMANO;94056:

  
  
  2. Once again, Blazing after the initial Lightning bolt stun but prior to the Thunder bolts crashing. It isn't impossible to get the full bonus this way, I do it all the time. Please re-read my initial post for context.
  
  

  
  
  Im curious as to how you can get full explosion bonus before the thunder bolts. 2+blaze doesnt give full kb nor full charge.
• DAEMANO wrote on 2010-07-15 20:52

  Quote from Syrion;94384:

  Im curious as to how you can get full explosion bonus before the thunder bolts. 2+blaze doesnt give full kb nor full charge.

  
  
  not full explosion bonus, nor full charge, I attempted to describe how blaze and thunder can successfully work together. I think I'm gonna have to post a vid.
• EndlessDreams wrote on 2010-07-15 23:52
  I would get Thunder for the rafting. If you want IS+Blaze combo, leaving IS to rF or r9 is good enough.
  
  Blaze is excellent against one target, but it isn't very good against a group of monsters, even if only one aggros you. The lack of range on IS makes it much harder to load all 5 charges when fightning monsters compared to the range of Fireball/Thunder.
  
  I have r1 of all four magics, and I only really use Thunder for rafting. I barely even bother with the other advance magics. If you are River Glitching, Blaze/IS might be a lot more useful though. Maybe.
  
  Since you are giant, Thunder is one of the few ways to get massive amount of AP since Magic Mastery doesn't give you as much compared to elf/humans. More MP is better than less MP.
• Blassreiter wrote on 2010-07-16 00:16
  I'm gaining more MP from Meditation then going Thunder. I still do not have Exploration Journal 3 and Ice Spear 1, 2, 4.
• Justified wrote on 2010-07-16 01:00

  Quote from DAEMANO;94056:

  2. Furthermore, it doesn't even appear that you use Thunder since you didn't reply to my query about your Thunder level, so I'd love to know where your Blaze+Thunder at a high rank expertise comes from. Provide this and then maybe I'll go through the effort of making you a video. Since really, I answered the OP's query about Blaze, Thunder, of Fireball. I'm kinda wondering where all this anti-thunder passion of yours is coming from.
  
  4. You should know about notable future changes before making a hardline recommendation for a long term skill. As you noted takes AT LEAST 4 RB's to get the aforementioned skills to a decent level, but probably closer to 6 or 8 since the OP is just starting out with them. Lastly, try to relax a lil bit man, it's just a game.

  
  
  2. I don't need the skill to understand mechanics. My Thunder rank is F, because I see no point in raising it since I have ranked FB, IS, and Blaze. It makes me wonder if you actually know how Blaze damage is calculated because you still haven't explained how you can get the full bonus during a Thunder shock. The mob must be lying on the ground to get the full bonus, and the damage bonus for all mobs is calculated individually, meaning all must be knocked down to maximize the Blase damage that can easily make up more than half of the combo. Likewise, without using a full charge you're coming up with that much less damage compared to Ice Spear.
  
  4. OP is a high level iirc, if he sinks all his AP gain then it's possible to finish each skill in about 4 rebirths. My "anti-Thunder passion" is just a response to your (and others') over-glorification of the skill. As for the actual question, I chimed in with my 2cents before your initial post. I didn't think I would need to restate my opinions.
  And I am relaxed, but crunching numbers and working out hypotheticals is something I like to do, and these numbers don't lie.
  
  If you show Zyrus how you play then I'll take his word for it since he seems knowledgeable in this area. Until then, I just don't see how it can compare.
• DAEMANO wrote on 2010-07-16 01:04

  Quote from Justified;94623:

  My Thunder rank is F,

  
  
  That's more than enough right there.
  
  Anyway
  Look, once again, this isn't an IS v.s. Thunder or IS vs. anything else thread, please start one if you really need one. You like IS, you've made that loud and clear. You don't like Thunder, ok that's great too. If you want other ppl to think the same way you do about it, you'll get a lot farther with honey than vinegar. Just mention what you like when in the appropriate place and call it a day. Nobody comes here to be put down by yet another random internet tough guy.
  
  peace