Afterlife

• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 01:14

  Quote from Chiyuri;845789:

  If God is Omniscient, he shoudl then be aware of every single possible path reality can take. He should also be aware of that path that will happen.. if he can't know that, then something is outside his realm of knowledge, contradicting one of the descriptive word used to explain "god"

  
  
  Which was what beget [S]pun half intended[/S] the debate of the time on this same topic— if God was all-knowing, how would one know if He knew where one was going? Or if He had already decided where one was going? If free will actually existed, or if it didn't matter what you chose, because the outcome was already expected and known.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 01:17

  Quote from animeshadows;845786:

  We devoted a month of classwork my Sophomore year— that is what I pulled from it on Calvinism, as we were focusing on the deviation from the Catholic/Christian church.

  
  
  Ah, I see. But, I think the part I bolded answers my question :)
  
  And ... oh the irony.
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845786:

  
  At this point I was primarily referring to those of the larger social class— the poor— who practiced at the time. In a period where poverty was high, and quite often people were subjected to either serfdom or large debts (to lords of the land, or... landlords *drumhit*), arguably all many had was the promise of salvation in heaven— that, for keeping their head low, practicing faith, and trying (emphasis on the effort aspect, here) they would be able to experience an afterlife that was far worth the years of suffering they faced.

  
  
  Ah. Well, it kept them moving on - correct?
  
  Not implying that what happened was right or wrong, which brings me to my next point -
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845786:

  
  A later, slightly related poem, would be The Man with the Hoe by Edwin Markham— it actually reverses my earlier statements. While the poor work and suffer, the poem criticizes God— a double meaning, both addressing the deity [i]and the landlords and upper classes— of how He allowed such poverty to happen. It shows a shift towards views against God "after the silence of the centuries," the centuries alluding towards the period of time I discussed prior.

  
  
  Cries out against God aren't all that foreign to me. It's even present in the Bible.
  
  The importance is to trust in God, after all - he knows best. Even if you were to disagree, against God - you really can't do much.
  
  

  Quote from Chiyuri;845789:

  If God is Omniscient, he shoudl then be aware of every single possible path reality can take. He should also be aware of that path that will happen.. if he can't know that, then something is outside his realm of knowledge, contradicting one of the descriptive word used to explain "god"

  
  
  Please re-read what you quoted again. But, I suppose I should emphasize.
  
  God is Omniscient, he knows everything - yes. But predetermination implies that once God knows the fate of someone, there's nothing said person could do.
  
  That would go in contradiction to free will ... which is then what predetermination tries to explain - in a sense.
  
  Again, personal belief. But it's not contradictory to God being Omniscient.
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-04-23 01:21

  Quote from Episkey;845801:

  
  Please re-read what you quoted again. But, I suppose I should emphasize.
  
  God is Omniscient, he knows everything - yes. But predetermination implies that once God knows the fate of someone, there's nothing said person could do.
  
  That would go in contradiction to free will ... which is then what predetermination tries to explain - in a sense.
  
  Again, personal belief. But it's not contradictory to God being Omniscient.

  
  
  So in short.. god knows all without knowing all because it it would contradict free will.. but to know all without knowing all isn't a contradiction?.
• Himeko wrote on 2012-04-23 01:30
  All the theories are very interesting :D
  
  Personally, I'm just doin' my own thing, I feel that once someone believes in something that they haven't experienced yet that they are a dangerous human being. At least in some situations.(DON'T JUMP ME ON EXCEPTIONS ;;) It's more just a thought to ponder.
  
  Anyways I have no theories on afterlife or beliefs, I'm just living my life now and enjoying it and I'm going to make sure I live my life so that when whatever happens to me at death, I won't have any regrets about the way I lived.
  
  I really do find this informative though, so many different views I've never heard about. @_@
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 01:40
  To bring us back on topic, yet another theory of immortality is that of Silicon Immortality, or the theorized "sync" of one's brain to a computer. If a method to recreate one's brain in 0s and 1s were to be created, it is argued that a person could exist immortally in a virtual world, or transfer bodies. This, however, takes the "soul" out of the question and raises the following criticism: Is a virtual or transferred brain a copy, or the actual being itself? While it would seem as if the same person is living, is it? or is it a copy?
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 01:40

  Quote from Chiyuri;845805:

  So in short.. god knows all without knowing all because it it would contradict free will.. but to know all without knowing all isn't a contradiction?.

  
  
  No. That's not my point.
  Why don't I try an example? I'm going to stick to the forums, since it's an environment known to us all.
  
  
  Let's say you have me (Episkey) and Person A.
  
  
  Person A is a member of Mabination. Person A is just like any other person, but he/she is a sinner.
  Now. God knows this and ultimately knows their destination.
  
  If Person A were to die that instant, he/she would not go to Heaven.
  
  But then you throw a user by the name of Episkey into the picture. Episkey wrote something about Christianity that got Person A's attention.
  Person A realizes their sinful condition and decides to PM Episkey about it.
  
  Now, at this point - I've thrown in a variable. Episkey's very existence.
  If Episkey didn't exist or didn't post about Christianity, Person A might have met an unfortunate fate.
  
  However, after some dialogue between Episkey and Person A - Person A accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and therefore becomes a Christian.
  Now, because of this event, the fate of Person A has changed. His/Her destination after death is now Heaven.
  
  But, God being Omniscient - he already knew that Person's A conversion would happen.
  
  Person A now going to heaven however, had nothing to do with what God knew. It was dependent on Episkey - and ultimately Person A.
  
  If Episkey didn't post about Christianity or suddenly died, then that "path" or "route" is blocked. Therefore, Person A is back to square one.
  Which of course, if Episkey suddenly died - God would have known that too.
  
  It depends on how far into the future you look to see. But again, it was the free will of Person A that ultimately made Heaven their eternal destination - not what God previously or currently knew.
  
  EDIT:
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845827:

  To bring us back on topic, yet another theory of immortality is that of Silicon Immortality, or the theorized "sync" of one's brain to a computer. If a method to recreate one's brain in 0s and 1s were to be created, it is argued that a person could exist immortally in a virtual world, or transfer bodies. This, however, takes the "soul" out of the question and raises the following criticism: Is a virtual or transferred brain a copy, or the actual being itself? While it would seem as if the same person is living, is it? or is it a copy?

  
  
  Oh. So having your entire existence inside a computer? Well assuming that was possible (Which would be complicated), that would be kind of cool.
  
  I don't know how immortality could be achieved, the whole aspect of a soul present, via a machine. I would think the person would die O_O ... But their memories would live forever?
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 01:44
  @Epi:
  
  "But, God being Omniscient - he already knew that Person's A conversion would happen."
  
  — if God knew that this was going to happen, then it seems similar to predestination. It can be argued that Episkey was created because God knew he would go on Mabination and do this, effectively bringing Person A to said place.
  
  It is, but it isn't. The idea contradicts itself, and supports itself, depending on what angle you look through the glass. :x
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 01:54

  Quote from Episkey;845828:

  I don't know how immortality could be achieved, the whole aspect of a soul present, via a machine. I would think the person would die O_O ... But their memories would live forever?

  
  
  Which brings in yet another theory of immortality— that one will live forever in memories. This is presented at the ending of Part Two in the podcast, and various art pieces I have researched prior, which states that so long as one is remembered, they will live forever. This memory can come from publication in books, to one's bloodline— children and their children, etc, keeping you alive.
  
  While they aren't necessarily immortal... they are immortal. If that makes any sense. This, however, brings immortality to other things— such as products, dates/events, and even businesses.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 01:54

  Quote from animeshadows;845830:

  It can be argued that Episkey was created because God knew he would go on Mabination and do this, effectively bringing Person A to said place.

  
  
  My existence can be argued, but my coming here to Mabination?
  Or my death?
  
  God may know of when I die or that I would join Mabination, but I didn't receive a divine command.
  I could very easily just not have been a part of this community ... I would like to say that would fall under my own free will O_O
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845830:

  
  It is, but it isn't. The idea contradicts itself, and supports itself, depending on what angle you look through the glass. :x

  
  
  I suppose it does. My argument is that God's knowledge of a situation does not indicate the final outcome.
  From birth everyone is destined to go to Hell, but through interpersonal interactions - that can be changed.
  
  Since we are talking about God, I guess it's one of those iffy areas that our human mind can't fully grasp around.
  Like the Trinity, if you are familiar with that concept.
  
  EDIT:
  
  

  Quote from animeshadows;845840:

  
  While they aren't necessarily immortal... they are immortal. If that makes any sense. This, however, brings immortality to other things— such as products, dates/events, and even businesses.

  
  
  Which was what I was going to state.
  I've heard that version of immortality before, but's subject to a few things.
  
  A society's memory of you, that can change over time. Look at Gautama Buddha - he never claimed to be a deity but rather "A searcher of the truth." Yet, his followers made him into a deity.
  
  Is Buddha living forever, well yes. But is that really Gautama Buddha? Questionable.
  
  Also there's the whole, if everyone were to die via an apocalypse. Then, the "immortality" would cease - contradicting the very definition of immortality.
• Cynic wrote on 2012-04-23 02:01
  I've had my own views on certain things Religion has taught. They haven't really changed much over the years, but they have been broadened.
  What's pretty funny is a lot of my views were portrayed in a way similar to Supernatural's 'lore'.
  
  My view of Heaven is kind of like a huge apartment building; everyone has their own Heaven, tailored perfectly to fit them; perhaps it's a memory, a place, a person.. you get the idea. And while you technically aren't supposed to visit other people's Heavens, obviously there are people who can or have at-least tried.
  
  Obviously, there are some who never really make it there. But the standards aren't anything like the BS ones in the Bible, though obviously they don't let people such as rapists and murderers in either.
  
  When you die and have unfinished business, you stay as a ghost. How long you stay as one is really up to you; if you're never satisfied and accept your death, you'll probably stay a ghost forever. Or perhaps you'll get lucky, accept your death and move on.
  
  Hell exists mainly for those who have sold their soul to a Demon, but they also have places for certain types of people, i.e. Hitler. Hell in my eyes is pretty stereotypical, but instead of people just chilling down there, most of them are tortured and otherwise fucked over if they're not a Demon. Obviously they pray more on those who are innocent but made a deal with a Demon, because who doesn't love to corrupt people and turn them into Demons?
  
  Purgatory.. eh. I don't know what my view of it is. Supernatural's portrayal (or lack of) is a good description simply because I don't really have one of my own. With how I view Heaven, Hell and the in-between, I don't really see the need for Purgatory.
  
  But yeah, there are really 3 main options for you after you die. It really all depends on both you and your choices; being good only means so much if you also make the 'right' choices. You may also get stuck as a ghost if you decide to tell Death to screw off so you can finish whatever business you have and/or stay with a loved one(s).
  
  
  tl;dr; my views are very similar to those shown in Supernatural. I've always viewed them that way and I really do agree with how everything is portrayed there.
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 02:16
  To pull away from the topic for a brief moment—... this thread is truly interesting. I really thank everybody for providing responses and discussing; its actually furthering ideas for the project that I am working on for a large essay I have to write on the topic (which is why I was listening to the podcast, researching poems and art, etc).
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 02:21

  Quote from animeshadows;845856:

  To pull away from the topic for a brief moment—... this thread is truly interesting. I really thank everybody for providing responses and discussing; its actually furthering ideas for the project that I am working on for a large essay I have to write on the topic (which is why I was listening to the podcast, researching poems and art, etc).

  
  
  Ah. Best of luck!
  There's always the Bible, feel free to ask me anything that I might be able to help you with.
  
  

  Quote from Cynic;845848:

  
  My view of Heaven is kind of like a huge apartment building; everyone has their own Heaven, tailored perfectly to fit them; perhaps it's a memory, a place, a person.. you get the idea. And while you technically aren't supposed to visit other people's Heavens, obviously there are people who can or have at-least tried.

  
  
  I'm a bit curious as to how you believe this to work.
  
  I'm not all to familiar with the show Supernatural.
• animeshadows wrote on 2012-04-23 02:44

  Quote from Episkey;845861:

  Ah. Best of luck!
  There's always the Bible, feel free to ask me anything that I might be able to help you with.
  

  
  
  People have chosen this topic in the past, and she told me to avoid staying specifically on Christian views of immortality, given that that was all prior essays were written on. So.. I've been researching interesting and uncommon theories to present. :)
• Episkey wrote on 2012-04-23 02:47

  Quote from animeshadows;845872:

  People have chosen this topic in the past, and she told me to avoid staying specifically on Christian views of immortality, given that that was all prior essays were written on. So.. I've been researching interesting and uncommon theories to present. :)

  
  
  Ah ... Well in any case, that's intriguing. Is the concept, immortality after death or during one's lifetime?
  
  Or can it be both?
• Chiyuri wrote on 2012-04-23 02:54

  Quote from animeshadows;845827:

  To bring us back on topic, yet another theory of immortality is that of Silicon Immortality, or the theorized "sync" of one's brain to a computer. If a method to recreate one's brain in 0s and 1s were to be created, it is argued that a person could exist immortally in a virtual world, or transfer bodies. This, however, takes the "soul" out of the question and raises the following criticism: Is a virtual or transferred brain a copy, or the actual being itself? While it would seem as if the same person is living, is it? or is it a copy?

  
  
  If you take the Theory of Existance into this, it doesn't seem that much of a problem. Existance is forever renewed. The moment your memories change, you are a new existance in a theorical point of view. In a practical point of view, it's best to take a time frame and say all of that fram is "you".. past that frame is a past "you" that is somewhat different than the current "you" and after that frame, the "you" might have become another "you"
  
  If memories is duplicated, it create two existance that will have diverging memories made from that point on, creating two different Existance. Even if you didn't duplicate the memories and sperate them into two, the second that action could be done, your memories will still change which is the lost of your previous existance and the beginnig of another. one more second and you got again a new existance. Heck.. just going to sleep and waking up in the morning is a good idea of that "cut" inbetween two existance. There is no garenty the "you" who woke up is trully the "you" who went to sleep. Even the memories "you" before sleeping experienced might be gone from the other "you" who will wake up in the morning.
  
  Anyway, for the transfering into a computer possiblity, without the right preperations, the "soul" could really be lost. The soul will simply return to the world and reincarnate.. in the end your existance will mostly be stabilized by just having the memories and the body(computer system) But the problem is that.. if the system trully replicate how the human brain work, without the presence of the soul it's quite likely that the person's personnality will deteriorate and definitively alter the essance of the existance. You would really need a way to keept the soul near the computer.. and somehow have it affect this world of 0 and 1 somehow..