G13 Class Petition Userbar

• Phunkie wrote on 2010-07-27 04:14
  Korea listens to its gamers, I read once.
  
  And some of them having been complaining about it already.
  
  We'll definitely see some change in this system.
• Hiccup wrote on 2010-07-27 06:46
  Well this is to let Nexon NA and Nexon KR that we don't want.
  
  I dunno who made the petition though o-o....
  
  3k on KR's 173 on ours
• Daccat wrote on 2010-07-27 07:03
  Where's the Korean petition?
• Hiccup wrote on 2010-07-27 07:05

  Quote from hengsheng120;105876:

  there's a better one here:
  
  Daum ???

  
  
  there^^
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-07-27 11:51
  Too bad the china players aren't going to be able to post on that website (most probably IP block from the great firewall of china).
  I bet a lot of them will have something to say about this class system.
• Taycat wrote on 2010-07-27 12:00
  GOOGLE SHOULD TRANSLATE THAT PAGE FOR ME.
  
  -translates-
• hengsheng120 wrote on 2010-07-27 12:46
  google lulzlations:
  
  

  [Image: http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6072/downloadfi.jpg]
• Hiccup wrote on 2010-07-27 14:18
  Ya I know the translation is horrible XD
• Serathx wrote on 2010-07-27 16:00
  N< Someone Fluent in Korean. >.>
  But yeah, I imagine that the players in other servers besides NA and KR are upset about this too.
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-07-27 17:58
  I provided one of my friends with the data available for new skills and everything, and analysed the thing together.
  We were a little upset by the class system, but after I gave extra data on the exclusive skills to each class, we think it's probably not a bad idea at all.
  
  For that petition to actually work, it must explain the areas the Job system is failing. I have yet to see anything about that. I read too much emotion. I'll really appreciate if someone could give an outline on what's wrong with the Job system (other than any whining that this is too much change to bear). I don't see how going through 33 pages of discussion will get me somewhere as everyone are giving too many different opinions and too little facts.
• Chockeh wrote on 2010-07-27 18:16

  Quote from Yogurticecream;106668:

  I provided one of my friends with the data available for new skills and everything, and analysed the thing together.
  We were a little upset by the class system, but after I gave extra data on the exclusive skills to each class, we think it's probably not a bad idea at all.
  
  For that petition to actually work, it must explain the areas the Job system is failing. I have yet to see anything about that. I read too much emotion. I'll really appreciate if someone could give an outline on what's wrong with the Job system (other than any whining that this is too much change to bear). I don't see how going through 33 pages of discussion will get me somewhere as everyone are giving too many different opinions and too little facts.

  
  That's just it :<.
• Zid wrote on 2010-07-27 18:34

  Quote from Yogurticecream;106668:

  I provided one of my friends with the data available for new skills and everything, and analysed the thing together.
  We were a little upset by the class system, but after I gave extra data on the exclusive skills to each class, we think it's probably not a bad idea at all.
  
  For that petition to actually work, it must explain the areas the Job system is failing. I have yet to see anything about that. I read too much emotion. I'll really appreciate if someone could give an outline on what's wrong with the Job system (other than any whining that this is too much change to bear). I don't see how going through 33 pages of discussion will get me somewhere as everyone are giving too many different opinions and too little facts.

  
  
  Some people's... "philosophies" with Mabinogi clashes with the new system. As for emotions and whining (and the complaining against the complaining @_@), it was bound to happen anyway because of that clash.
  
  The way I see it, although nothing's confirmed for live, the Job system as it is has implications of mid to end-game mess. I'm sure you figured out that a low lvl Knight can do as well and do as much dmg as a mid lvl Adventurer. Some people have a problem with that (it's not unlike race discrimination, like Elven Ranged vs. Human Ranged, and that debate's never going to rest), with the effort pre-G13 vs. the ease of jobs post-G13.
  
  Some people don't like the party play implications of the job system, maybe because they're so used to soloing or similar, which Mabinogi pre-G13 virtually allows.
  
  Then there are those who don't like restrictions placed on them as a job, including Adventurer. Especially considering stat growth and loss of passive stat bonus if a skill is restricted. There was also the test server's magic dmg nerf to Adventurer (maybe to promote Wizard) to consider.
  
  For me, the job system as it is, is pointless. I'm not saying I don't want to get rid of it (hence why I'm not wearing this thread's userbar in my signature), but as it is, at worst it seems like a gimmick and a write-off. Like Animal Taming. At best, who knows, it could probably be as well off as the race system. But I'm leaning towards the pessimistic, skeptic side until more data can prove me wrong (which I haven't seen any yet), or until there are changes to the system that will make me change my mind.
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-07-27 19:00
  Let me pick some of the points to cover and see if I can go anywhere with those.
  
  I'm sure you figured out that a low lvl Knight can do as well and do as much dmg as a mid lvl Adventurer.
  Whatever the description of Adventurers say, in my head it reads something like this - they can do almost anything but they are jack of all trades and masters of none. So I think it's fair that a low lvl Knight can do as well and do as much dmg as a mid lvl Adventurer. Knights don't get the variety of skills Adventurers have. It's a trade-off. Same way as elf and human range.
  
  However, I see a possibility of lack of balance in dungeon play for this. I wonder if High lvl Knights will be too overpowered to the extent that they will not need party members where-ever they go. I need not mention how DKs are overpowered enough with the potion abuse (and hacks).
  
  Some people don't like the party play implications of the job system, maybe because they're so used to soloing or similar, which Mabinogi pre-G13 virtually allows.
  A lot of people that I talked to felt like quitting (or even quit) Mabinogi just because they felt forced to solo. Pre-13, there are so many benefits for soloing and too little benefits for party play, so I can't see how this is bad.
  
  The point of an MMORPG is not to solo play. The real deal is party play. It's nice to have solo play options. However, if everything encourages solo play, what difference is it going to make from playing a normal offline console game? This is something they have to learn to respect. Otherwise they are probably better off playing some offline type of game.
  
  Then there are those who don't like restrictions placed on them as a job, including Adventurer. Especially considering stat growth and loss of passive stat bonus if a skill is restricted. There was also the test server's magic dmg nerf to Adventurer (maybe to promote Wizard) to consider.
  This is worrying. Few questions here. Do those skills that are partially restricted (Those that are available but cannot gain skill proficiency) get passive stat bonus? Where can I get this new nerfed magic damage formula for Adventurers? Going to give that to friend to check out on it..
• Zid wrote on 2010-07-27 19:52

  Quote from Yogurticecream;106744:

  Whatever the description of Adventurers say, in my head it reads something like this - they can do almost anything but they are jack of all trades and masters of none. So I think it's fair that a low lvl Knight can do as well and do as much dmg as a mid lvl Adventurer. Knights don't get the variety of skills Adventurers have. It's a trade-off. Same way as elf and human range.

  
  
  Those that don't like this will argue that.
  
  For example, I'll take a Giant. As a Giant, you get a restriction dilemma of not being able to use Ranged effectively. However, you still can use a Ranged attack.
  
  The comparison is, you take, say, a Wizard class. It's been known in the test data that Wizards cannot use Windmill.
  
  The problem with some people on this is that, while Giants get a nerf in the Ranged area, it is usually unnecessary since a Giant doesn't need it. Just like an Elf's Windmill is 200% at r1 instead of 250%. And they don't equate that to a Wizard losing Windmill, which some consider is vital. While or not this is a fair trade-off is subjective, but the argument at play is nerf vs. loss of skill. There are suggestions that, instead of losing skill as a specific, the skills would better off nerfed for that class.
  
  An easier example is Elf's better Magnum Shot, just because of they are of the "job", Elves. But they get a nerfed Smash/Windmill, instead of being completely restricted from using them.
  
  A point in this argument is that "You can just switch class/go to Adventurer; you have that advantage vs. being locked into your race", but the arguing point is that, it makes classes bothersome because then you'll be losing desired buffs and such, instead of just being pre-G13 and just having the skills there already to rank and stick to whatever you want, instead of what devCAT wants. Which leads to...
  
  

  Quote from Yogurticecream;106744:

  A lot of people that I talked to felt like quitting (or even quit) Mabinogi just because they felt forced to solo. Pre-13, there are so many benefits for soloing and too little benefits for party play, so I can't see how this is bad.
  
  The point of an MMORPG is not to solo play. The real deal is party play. It's nice to have solo play options. However, if everything encourages solo play, what difference is it going to make from playing a normal offline console game? This is something they have to learn to respect. Otherwise they are probably better off playing some offline type of game.

  
  
  At this point, I think it's easier to say "If you can't handle the solo play of Mabinogi, go play another game" or "If you can't handle this new update promoting party play, go play something else for your solo needs", than to just find a solution to this debate over the shift. I wouldn't want party play to suddenly take over and minimize Mabinogi's solo play emphasis, but if it can be implemented without doing that, it might do well.
  
  However, while assuming is not always a good idea, the implementation of the job system mean having jobs that attracts with buffs, but can lose important skills. Maybe future content will release party play modes, in conjunction with the jobs, that give a lot more benefits than what solo play has to offer. Already there runs the risk of minimizing solo play for people who do like solo play.
  
  I can't really agree with your definition of the point of MMORPG and what people should and should not play if they want solo play, but that's another story.
  
  

  Quote from Yogurticecream;106744:

  This is worrying. Few questions here. Do those skills that are partially restricted (Those that are available but cannot gain skill proficiency) get passive stat bonus? Where can I get this new nerfed magic damage formula for Adventurers? Going to give that to friend to check out on it..

  
  
  Not sure about partially restricted. I hope not.
  
  Magic nerf: http://mabination.com/mabinogi/mabinogi-talk/5212-its-trap-chapter-3-a.html?highlight=trap+magic+nerf
  
  I say Adventurer (and all classes except Wizard) got the nerf, because the nerf happened before the job system was announced.