R or S? That is the question.

• Chihaya wrote on 2013-02-20 23:13
  Mathematical Calculations to compare R-Special Upgrades and S-Special Upgrades.
  
  Ever since its release, people have been asking the question “R or S?” a bit more than how many times they SHOULD ask. Generally speaking, R upgraded weapon are more effective, or offer more damage than an S upgraded weapon. However, then the question becomes, “When is R better than S?” Today, I aim to inform players on how to ESTIMATE the breakpoint between the two upgrades.
  
  Let’s start out with the basics.
  
  1)If you are aiming to do a R upgrade, I really hope you have the highest possible critical percentage possible. This guide assumes that your critical rate, after factoring monster’s protection, is greater than 30% (cap)
  2) The guide only takes into account 2-hand weapons, but please note that this same process can be used for 1 hand weapons as well.
  3) In addition, I will compare R and S weapons of equivalent levels.
  4) The guide assumes a Critical Hit rank of 1.
  5) For simplicity’s sake, I’ll say that critical hits are normally 2.5x your normal attack.
  6) Additionally, for simplicity, I will assume that you ALWAYS hit your max damage. Because of this, it is safe to assume that when you reach or surpass the numbers I am about to present, the R upgrade will ALWAYS be better for you.
  
  According to the numbers I plugged in, the "efficiency" of each special upgrade rank varies each level. [S](NO SHIT, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS)[/S]
  Because of this, it is possible to see that each rank will have a different "X" Value (which we define as your damage), where R upgrade is better than an S upgrade.
  
  TL;DR version.
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]
  R upgrades are better than S upgrades, if your max damage is higher than the "X" presented, for the respective special upgrade level of your weapon.
  [/SPOILER]
  
  

  [Image: http://i47.tinypic.com/r1g013.png]

  
  
  Table of the X-numbers. The "breakpoint damage" differs by Special Upgrade Level. Keep that in mind.
  
  
  Don't know where you should look for your "Max Damage"? Here's a reference.
  
  

  [Image: http://i48.tinypic.com/15d8m82.jpg]

  
  
  Here, I've equipped a fully upgraded HLB (no gem/special). As you can see, my max damage is 461. Because this number is greater than any of the "X" I present in the table above, an R upgrade of any rank would be stronger (provided I have enough crit, which I don't here) than the S upgrade of an equivalent rank.
  
  I hope this guide helps any players wishing to know more about special upgrades.
  As always, please let me know if any corrections or questions via PM. Thanks!
• December wrote on 2013-02-21 06:23
  Your chart is a little different from the one posted by Inemnitable on Mabiwiki, not sure if it's because you calculated it differently or whatever.
  
  Also I'd also say that R6 Red would only be situationally advantageous assuming you're DPSing a boss or something. Blue would be superior in niche senarios such as if R6 Blue would allow you to 1 hit a mob, whereas R6 Red would 2 hit on a non crit and way overkill on a crit.
• Mentosftw wrote on 2013-02-21 07:00
  ^ Which also means that R upgrades are better for skillsets with low multipliers.
  
  It's why I tell people to go with S upgrades in the fighter skillset because the multipliers are high and chain mastery increases those modifiers by 20, 30 or 40 percent depending on your race. If you crit with a 5 or 6 S knuckle, you're going to way overkill most mobs you come across anyways.
• Howhurl wrote on 2013-02-21 08:17
  The debate over r/s type knuckles never end...
  
  I understand when you crit with fighter skills monster WILL die(for most, ~90-95%). But what about Lord mission monsters?
  
  Of course then you would use r type I think. In which case, you'd make both r type and s type knuckles. Alas, not everyone has that kind of money xD
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-02-21 11:52
  People who S type knuckles need to understand something.
  
  
  This is an MMORPG, the metagame is always changing, and currently, R types are the most flexible and adaptable.
  
  S types are not, before people were able to do elites reliably, there were a lot of arguments supporting S typing highlander claymores because of the consistent damage instead of the really high damage.
  
  Metagame shifted, people now R type the majority of things.
  Knuckles are falling in this category, will the metagame shift again? More than likely.
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-02-21 16:42

  Quote from Aubog007;1036627:

  People who S type knuckles need to understand something.
  
  
  This is an MMORPG, the metagame is always changing, and currently, R types are the most flexible and adaptable.
  
  S types are not, before people were able to do elites reliably, there were a lot of arguments supporting S typing highlander claymores because of the consistent damage instead of the really high damage.
  
  Metagame shifted, people now R type the majority of things.
  Knuckles are falling in this category, will the metagame shift again? More than likely.

  
  
  ...what?
• Chihaya wrote on 2013-02-21 20:00

  Quote from Zekkii;1036723:

  ...what?

  
  
  basically, with the large amounts of damage/stats that people are getting from easy-nogi, along with the fact that R-upgrades are better after a certain point with max critical, R-upgrades are best for all weapons.
  
  As I stated, guys, this is just an estimate. Despite the fact that R upgrades are now almost always better than S upgrades, this guide is just showing you how those numbers are obtained.
• Crazed420 wrote on 2013-02-21 23:09
  Interesting. Your numbers are similar to what I estimated just by getting a feel for damage and when moving to R would be beneficial.
  Sadly most of my gear is S type and I really don't feel like spending 10m+ just to make R types of my weapons.
  
  Nice reference guide though.
• Chihaya wrote on 2013-02-21 23:22

  Quote from Crazed420;1036999:

  Interesting. Your numbers are similar to what I estimated just by getting a feel for damage and when moving to R would be beneficial.
  Sadly most of my gear is S type and I really don't feel like spending 10m+ just to make R types of my weapons.
  
  Nice reference guide though.

  
  
  I'm glad I could get some support for my numbers.
  However, why would you have to spend 10m+ for R-upgrading weapons? With the Valentine's Day event, Red Stones are relatively cheap, and with the new gacha released, and higher demand for gold, it's not going to be hard finding sellers of Red Stones for 25k on Tarlach.
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-02-21 23:24

  Quote from Chihaya;1036870:

  basically, with the large amounts of damage/stats that people are getting from easy-nogi, along with the fact that R-upgrades are better after a certain point with max critical, R-upgrades are best for all weapons.
  
  As I stated, guys, this is just an estimate. Despite the fact that R upgrades are now almost always better than S upgrades, this guide is just showing you how those numbers are obtained.

  
  
  RC = R5 Critical
  S = S Damage above normal
  SC = S5 critical
  N = Normal
  (All Including Modifiers)
  
  If a mob has less than (normal critical * modifier) health left, the R upgrade is instantly deemed entirely useless. If it has less than SC health left, it would have been better to go blue (even assuming 100% critical rate somehow). The only situation where RC is of any use, is when the difference between RC + N and SC + S has actually killed the monster instead of keeping it alive.
  
  With 500 maximum damage, RC is about 20% additional critical damage or 3/2.5. SC is about 7.8% additional critical damage or 539/500 (all ignoring balance, so R gets a brownie point or something). This means RC does about 11.1% more critical damage than SC with 500 maximum damage. At 500 damage before special upgrades, you do about 2.36% more average damage with R5 than S5 upgrades.
  
  Finally, the last bit of info you should know is the amount of damage it actually increases overall. R5 is about 10.3% extra damage average, S5 is about 7.8% extra damage at 500 max.
  
  This means, when choosing R5 over S5 will provide you an average of 2.36% extra damage provided that SC + S is not enough to kill the monster while RC + N is, for roughly the same amount of times that SC + S is enough to kill the monster while RC + N isn't. Realistically, I don't t think 11.1% extra critical is going to make up for 7.8% additional normal damage because of how low health mobs are. I don't think 2.36% is enough damage to justify how many more times SC + S would kill the monster than RC + R.
  
  I can give some examples of some of the strongest mobs in Mabi giving more actual average damage with S5 than R5 at 500 max, but the truth is that it is impossible to prove that one is actually better than the other because they aren't. It just depends on the situation or combined situation average.
  
  Just because R5 does 2.36% extra average damage at 500 doesn't make it better than S5 at 500 damage. Even less so at the break even point, where they do the same amount of average damage. It is not a fact, it is an opinion.
  
  tl;dr
  Average damage =/= superiority
• Crazed420 wrote on 2013-02-22 00:26

  Quote from Chihaya;1037007:

  I'm glad I could get some support for my numbers.
  However, why would you have to spend 10m+ for R-upgrading weapons? With the Valentine's Day event, Red Stones are relatively cheap, and with the new gacha released, and higher demand for gold, it's not going to be hard finding sellers of Red Stones for 25k on Tarlach.

  
  
  My luck.
  It's likely an exaggeration but between the enchants, the buying of decently smithed gear, ancient powders, upgrade costs for special ups, the fact i'd likely blow through 100 or more stones per weapon to get to step 5, reforges..... it adds up fast. Plus being as hybrided out as I am it would mean doing so for roughly 6 weapons. So, don't take my number as for an average player, I personally would end up having to spend more than most since I don't just use 1 or 2 styles of combat frequently.
  
  But that's not that important. Most players it's no big deal making R types or S types.
  
  

  Quote from Zekkii;1037009:

  
  tl;dr
  Average damage =/= superiority

  
  
  This is the second reason why I don't fret too much.
  
  The average damage is much higher if you have a good critical pool but the only area I can see me actually severely benefiting from R is in lord. Mind you in lord my damage plummets due to pot poisoning being near instant to me using pot. Which is the main reason i do not use battle swords and go for pure true damage. So one could argue from that fact that S types would be just as useful to me.
• Chihaya wrote on 2013-02-22 16:18

  Quote from Zekkii;1037009:

  [SPOILER="Spoiler"]RC = R5 Critical
  S = S Damage above normal
  SC = S5 critical
  N = Normal
  (All Including Modifiers)
  
  If a mob has less than (normal critical * modifier) health left, the R upgrade is instantly deemed entirely useless. If it has less than SC health left, it would have been better to go blue (even assuming 100% critical rate somehow). The only situation where RC is of any use, is when the difference between RC + N and SC + S has actually killed the monster instead of keeping it alive.
  
  With 500 maximum damage, RC is about 20% additional critical damage or 3/2.5. SC is about 7.8% additional critical damage or 539/500 (all ignoring balance, so R gets a brownie point or something). This means RC does about 11.1% more critical damage than SC with 500 maximum damage. At 500 damage before special upgrades, you do about 2.36% more average damage with R5 than S5 upgrades.
  
  Finally, the last bit of info you should know is the amount of damage it actually increases overall. R5 is about 10.3% extra damage average, S5 is about 7.8% extra damage at 500 max.
  
  This means, when choosing R5 over S5 will provide you an average of 2.36% extra damage provided that SC + S is not enough to kill the monster while RC + N is, for roughly the same amount of times that SC + S is enough to kill the monster while RC + N isn't. Realistically, I don't t think 11.1% extra critical is going to make up for 7.8% additional normal damage because of how low health mobs are. I don't think 2.36% is enough damage to justify how many more times SC + S would kill the monster than RC + R.
  
  I can give some examples of some of the strongest mobs in Mabi giving more actual average damage with S5 than R5 at 500 max, but the truth is that it is impossible to prove that one is actually better than the other because they aren't. It just depends on the situation or combined situation average.
  
  Just because R5 does 2.36% extra average damage at 500 doesn't make it better than S5 at 500 damage. Even less so at the break even point, where they do the same amount of average damage. It is not a fact, it is an opinion.
  
  tl;dr
  Average damage =/= superiority[/SPOILER]

  
  
  This is very good analysis, but then I have you ask you this:
  
  With each and every monster you fight... do you ask the question "Would R or S be better in combatting this monster with this weapon I hold?"
  Obviously, the answer would be no, because I don't think you're THAT bored nor have that much free time to say that.
  
  Personally, I like bows to use as an example.
  
  I have an ego bow with 72 max damage. it's an ESB, so it's easy to repair, and has decent range as well, making me very proud of it. When I'm soloing Hardmode Missions for the daily, I might use that ego. Not too strong, not too hard to repair either, but gives me enough damage to clear the mission in a reasonable amount of time and effort.
  
  Now when I go to Lord or even Elite missions (because I'm really weak compared to other players)? I might break out that S6 HLB I have sitting in my inventory. Or my (future-to-be-created) R6 HLB, for the extra damage that they can offer. That's the thought process I was hoping the other players could have, while they read this guideline.
  
  It's not about "Oh, you waste damage if you use an S6 bow on a brown fox". Weapons aren't that expensive to repair, especially if the player is able to afford level 5 special upgrade weapons, and even if you argue that repairing weapons is often stressful and sometimes results in failure, you can always make more.
  
  Back when there was the Black Dragon event, and upgrade stones were like gravel on the ground, I had 6 HLBs, which had level 5 of their respective upgrades. I finally got tired of carrying all of them, and attempted to make them into level 6; only one survived (FUCK YOU RNG!!!).
  Right now, I have about 100 stones sitting in my alt's inventory waiting to be used. They will be used to create another HLB, when my S6 HLB right now dies.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-02-23 09:09

  Quote from Zekkii;1036723:

  ...what?

  
  
  
  Meaning if S type something and are able to always 100% 1 hit something, with the way the game has been pouring stats at us lately, we will be able to 100% 1hit without S types.
  
  Example would be stones of sliab, doesn't matter R or S, you can just one shot everything anyway.
  
  But for bosses, R type is clearly superior.
  
  I had 300 max damage when special upgrades first came out.
  
  Now i have 600 max damage. S types would barely affect my damage while R types will always benefit.
  
  If you were around for the title glitch... You would understand that rationality, % things are always better with more max, is 50 max damage going to do you better when you have say... 1-2k max damage or is 10-40% more damage going to do better.
  
  
  
  Hence the argument with lion claw lances vs knight lances. Max or Piercing?
• Kenero wrote on 2013-02-23 13:46

  Quote from Aubog007;1037994:

  Meaning if S type something and are able to always 100% 1 hit something, with the way the game has been pouring stats at us lately, we will be able to 100% 1hit without S types.
  
  Example would be stones of sliab, doesn't matter R or S, you can just one shot everything anyway.
  
  But for bosses, R type is clearly superior.
  
  I had 300 max damage when special upgrades first came out.
  
  Now i have 600 max damage. S types would barely affect my damage while R types will always benefit.
  
  If you were around for the title glitch... You would understand that rationality, % things are always better with more max, is 50 max damage going to do you better when you have say... 1-2k max damage or is 10-40% more damage going to do better.
  
  
  
  Hence the argument with lion claw lances vs knight lances. Max or Piercing?

  
  
  Definitely during the title glitch, especially walking around with obscene 100k+ damage, red was clearly superior...
  
  And with the way the game is growing and people constantly getting stronger, red is going to be an investment in the future.
  
  However, whether monsters are strong enough to actually care if it's red or blue is a different topic.
• Chihaya wrote on 2013-02-23 18:58

  Quote from Kenero;1038061:

  Definitely during the title glitch, especially walking around with obscene 100k+ damage, red was clearly superior...
  
  And with the way the game is growing and people constantly getting stronger, red is going to be an investment in the future.
  
  However, whether monsters are strong enough to actually care if it's red or blue is a different topic.

  
  
  Provided you don't reforge, anything HM would be considered "significant", to the point damage differences would appear between S and R.