Objective Morality

• Joker wrote on 2013-03-13 09:23

  Quote from Iljimae;1045553:

  I've been doing some fun reading so I figured it'd be interesting to bring the discussion here to nation.
  
  A universal objective morality, do you believe it exists without god? Also going to ask that thoughts regarding religion be set aside for this as I'd rather see this stay a debate of thoughts stemming from things such as Objectivism, Nihilism, etc, rather than a religious argument.

  
  
  WUT?
  
  morality is indeed subjective or we'de still be burning and killing people over their skin color...
  at least as a whole* of people
  
  in 100 years who the fk knows what will be.
  
  also morality is also imposed from family to children and experience. If a family believes killing to be OK and is the ONLY influence the kids probably gonna grow up to thinking its okay...
  
  Fun video:
  [SPOILER="Spoiler"][video=youtube;CE8ooMBIyC8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8[/video][/SPOILER]
  
  as for a universal objective morality... Eh I'm not sure, Thats a tough question but if anything, religion has nothing to do with it, I think most people just want to have a place to belong
• Drizzit wrote on 2013-03-13 16:18

  Quote from Shanghai;1047961:

  It's surely not established or created via religion, because it's been there since the world's been created.

  
  
  But, the question isn't whether universal morality can exist without religion. It's whether it can exist without God, and the answer to that is no, because objective morality cannot exist without a higher authority. Humans make mistakes; we don't always know the right answer, and our judgements are clouded by our own desires, as you said. Only a perfect being, such as God, is capable of perfect morality.
  I like the rest of your points though. The Alchemist was a great book.
• truefire wrote on 2013-03-13 17:09
  It's an impossible concept. Objective Morality implies there's a universal code that not only everyone adheres to, but would be impossible to break. There is no single aspect of morality that everyone is compelled to agree on. If you believe killing is wrong, a serial killer will disagree. If you believe theft is wrong, someone who's just trying to survive by any means will disagree. If you believe suicide is wrong, or that apathy or outright lack of compassion is wrong, a nihilist will disagree. For that reason, all morality is subjective at best.
  
  Anything that would be objectively moral would have no exceptions, no concessions, no devil's advocate of the other side. The idea of something contrary to something objectively moral would be universally inconceivable.
• Shanghai wrote on 2013-03-14 00:49

  Quote from Drizzit;1048070:

  But, the question isn't whether universal morality can exist without religion. It's whether it can exist without God, and the answer to that is no, because objective morality cannot exist without a higher authority. Humans make mistakes; we don't always know the right answer, and our judgements are clouded by our own desires, as you said. Only a perfect being, such as God, is capable of perfect morality.
  I like the rest of your points though. The Alchemist was a great book.

  
  
  Poop, I thought I was answering the question correctly XD. But I do agree with your point on it, and nice to see someone who's read it as well.
• psyal wrote on 2013-03-14 01:41
  As it is, a moral is an abstract ideal, something with no actual existence in the universe, that is a guide to what is right and wrong. As right and wrong are defined by the subjective will of the individual, and not by the universe, morals are purely subjective. Even under some system where right and wrong no longer are subjective abstracts, such as having them defined by a god or something, or by them being tied to some actual thing, the meanings of the words would be different, and so it still doesn't give the original meanings any objectiveness.
  
  That's just the simple version, without my view on the universe.
  *begin theory
  If you want, you could say the universe has morals, but not like the ones a person would have. The morals of the universe would be the laws that govern our reality. What it sees as right is what exists, and what it sees as wrong simply doesn't. If there are other universes, it could be that it has different morals, and so the laws of reality would be different.
  Of course, that part is merely a theory of mine, and probably won't be proven or disproven for a while yet.
• sump wrote on 2013-03-26 18:16

  Quote from Iljimae;1045553:

  I've been doing some fun reading so I figured it'd be interesting to bring the discussion here to nation.
  
  A universal objective morality, do you believe it exists without god? Also going to ask that thoughts regarding religion be set aside for this as I'd rather see this stay a debate of thoughts stemming from things such as Objectivism, Nihilism, etc, rather than a religious argument.

  
  It wouldn't exist in that case either, because whether it is a deity's will or not has no bearing on its objective importance. In the end it's just going to be subjective again because of the god's subjective evaluations etc.
  
  Objective morality can by definition not exist and is a paradox. Morality is always the question of good and bad, and that always depends on a certain evaluation, and that one always depends on the evaluating... subject. Anything else is just clinging to straws.
  
  And if anyone is having a little "but PCs could calculate it!" thought experiment, that doesn't change anything. While it is easily agreed that a processor feels no emotion as we understand and most importantly feel them, it is nonetheless true that to evaluate something on its morality, it has to define standards upon which to evaluate. These will necessarily have to be arbitrary, as there is nothing to draw from. Therefore, they will be as "objective" as any man's, weasel's or amoebae's evaluation.
  
  Of course this does not mean that it is objectively wrong to come up with a standard for society and then enforce that.
  You don't need objective morality, you just need a standard morality that works well enough for the purpose of, well, let's be subjective and assign the greatest importance to the wellbeing of all people. If anyone disagrees, too bad.
• TLCBonaparte wrote on 2013-03-26 18:20

  Quote from Iljimae;1045553:

  I've been doing some fun reading so I figured it'd be interesting to bring the discussion here to nation.
  
  A universal objective morality, do you believe it exists without god? Also going to ask that thoughts regarding religion be set aside for this as I'd rather see this stay a debate of thoughts stemming from things such as Objectivism, Nihilism, etc, rather than a religious argument.

  
  
  I believe Morality stem from the social aspect of our civilization, in order to co-exist, some actions that are not self serving are necessary to maintain a "tribe", later a kingdom, and later a nation. Religion is a part of it, because organized religion also require compromise between people in order to maintain the order. In that sense, it is involved, but not in the way that "god gave us moral."