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Cyrene wrote on 2013-08-17 17:45
1. Why do most games cause you to grind for hours (wow), to get an item so that your "gear score" will make you able to do another dungeoun?
2. How hard is it to program enemy Ais that actually vary. Various tactics for the same dungeons maybe. Have it random set of various Ai. For example maybe these monsters who tried to take your team head on now has a group of archers in the back?
3. Why is it that if you mess up in a game everyone has this attitude that your a newb? No sorry I'm not a pro. I don't get payed to rehearse these freaking dungeon constantly over and over.
4. Lack of sandbox MMOs. Mabinogi and Archeage and Black desert (I think) are the only few sandbox mmorpgs you can find. I would give a mention to planet calypso which are probably amazing if you have money. But the combat is extremely boring and it isn't fun at all to build your character. Unless you enjoy kiting.
5. Maybe have an mmo with all the features of planet calypso and have the combat of gw2? Done qaudruple AAAA title right there.
6. I can't be the only person who thinks the holy trinity of dps healer tank is kinda boring. In almost every copy and paste themepark you will see it. You will play the game essentially for its theme because most free mmos are exactly the same as wow but with less high qaulity content. (in general)
7. Maybe I'm just more fond of korean mmos because they seem to be the only country going fr mmos with actual living breathing worlds. With life skills and food and housing and exploration more than just kill this dungeoun till you get this gear. Hell this game has some nice looking combat I thinkk and has a nice form of housing.
[video=youtube;SNFSw107MQs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNFSw107MQs[/video]
Summary of my posts. More sandbox MMORPG Please
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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2013-08-17 18:56
Games have continuously shifted over time to a more skill-based model. Just look at Vindictus, TERA, the random group of kind-of-hotkey kind-of-skill games like C9 and Blade & Soul, etc. Gear still matters but you can get by on a lot less if you're good. This was not the case in almost any past MMORPG in the days of Runescape, Maplestory, etc. These kinds of games just didn't exist and we didn't have the technology to make them anyway. We didn't even really have anything like Rusty Hearts or GhostX until the mid 2000s. The closest to any of these types of games that I can think of was RYL, and gear still meant a lot there. If you wanted to play from skill, you were stuck with games like Gunbound, Rakion, GunZ, Survival Project and so on. In other words, we're making progress in MMORPGs and very rapidly at that. With how far we've gotten in 5 years, just imagine how much further we'll be in another 5.
What you're asking for in #4 practically isn't an MMORPG at all, and kind of takes the point out of these games. You can already play skill-based online action games. They usually come in the form of shooters, PvP games and other things, but they're not exclusively like that. There are PvM "action games" I suppose.
If you've already run the main set of skill-based MMORPGs down, I would suggest playing a game like Path of Exile or Diablo as they may give you that feeling of being open and skill-based, despite placing an importance on gear. If you haven't, then give Vindictus and TERA a go at the very least. They're almost exactly what you're asking for.
Addressing #6: Because if you've got the money to spend, people feel it's less stressful to play P2P games. They know they're on the same level as everyone else and, unless someone buys gold, people can't really buy their way to victory or anything so they'll never feel an unnatural pressure to spend as everyone at the top isn't doing it. They also feel the mechanics aren't built around making people suffer until they pay. In other words, it truly becomes a "game" to them and not a social competition, if that makes sense.
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Cynic wrote on 2013-08-17 20:02
Meh. Pay to Play I kind of understand for some games, as long as it's none of that monthly shit. Then it just seems pretentious as hell.
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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2013-08-17 20:28
That's always what P2P means though. Buying things first is just buy to play, but a lot of those games (like Diablo) will never require additional payments in any form.
I guess it could also mean timecards, but those are far worse than paying monthly.
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Cyrene wrote on 2013-08-17 21:56
Vindictus and path of exile I have tried, I didn't really list everything i wanted in an mmo. I honestly dislike them both, because i prefer open world sandbox mmos such as mabi or archeage. Blade and soul is great but after the combat and hitting max level theres nothing else except getting the best gear and pvp.
Edit: My problem with P2P is that it charges you 15 dollars a month for example for a game which feels like a job, especcially after hitting max level. Blade and soul is subscription based last time i looked and so is archeage in KR. Why should I be forced to pay more than the game is actually worth which is honestly probably 30 dollars without a box and a case. Why am I paying for a "license" to play an mmo. There is honestly no justification that says mmos should always be subscription to play. Guild wars 2 does just fine on profit. Mabi also does amazingly well in other countrys. So why does everyone feel that Subscription beats >ftp/buytoplay.
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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2013-08-17 22:43
Guild Wars sells items in the cash shop, as does Mabinogi.
The problem is it depends on whether you'd rather feel pressured to pay for things or whether you'd rather pay monthly to remove the feeling of being nagged at. I think buy to play without subscriptions or cash shops is honestly the ideal model (for us), but eh, of course it's less money for them.
It's not really about what's "better", it's about what feeling it gives a person and that's gonna be a really subjective and individual experience based not just on the game, but on how much income you have. If the monthly fees aren't a very big deal to someone because they're in a comfortable financial situation, there's almost no reason to go with F2P games unless they're kinda conservative with their money. Problem is, they'll often be enticed to spend more with a cash shop than they would with a subscription. Quite a lot more, in fact... For some it's in the thousands. For others it's in the tens of thousands. With certain games it can exceed that. That's a very dangerous thing to play around with and is a bit more threatening to a more aggressive spender. Of course if that makes you happy, go for it. It's your money and your choice of spending on pleasurable goods and services, after all. And nothing forces you to pay a dime. Other than skills in Maplestory, rebirths in practically any game that has them, progression limits or withheld content, and... oh, nevermind. But in theory, you don't have to pay anything!
I definitely understand that P2P games feel like paying rent and almost "enslave" you in a sense to play the game. But that's back on the financial stuff.
As for an open world MMORPG... there are some, but they're mostly complete garbage. You can go try Hunter Blade, for example, which is "kind of" open world, or RYL (now Return of Warrior), which can be somewhat skill based depending on the class but is very dated today. I suppose there's RaiderZ as well. I understand your concerns about this, though, and feel more will be made to fill that gap as the years go on. Things are certainly heading in that direction.
Try TERA, by the way. It's actually a legit open world MMORPG where skill does matter. And it's free. Free as in you can download it right now without any purchase or commitment and play it, free. And skill-based as in you can solo things with lesser gear that a party with greater gear cannot beat. Other than that, there's pretty much nothing noteworthy I can think of, unfortunately.
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Chiyuri wrote on 2013-08-17 23:04
Maybe ya just not suited for mmorpg....
Personnaly I like runescape a lot. The quest are some of the most advance of all mmorpg games. The lore is fantastic. While many ennemy have repeated very simple combat style.. some of the boss are really fun to fight.(or frustratingly hard.. which can be good in certain aspect)
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Cyrene wrote on 2013-08-17 23:21
Quote from RebeccaBlack;1137219:
Guild Wars sells items in the cash shop, as does Mabinogi.
The problem is it depends on whether you'd rather feel pressured to pay for things or whether you'd rather pay monthly to remove the feeling of being nagged at. I think buy to play without subscriptions or cash shops is honestly the ideal model (for us), but eh, of course it's less money for them.
It's not really about what's "better", it's about what feeling it gives a person and that's gonna be a really subjective and individual experience based not just on the game, but on how much income you have. If the monthly fees aren't a very big deal to someone because they're in a comfortable financial situation, there's almost no reason to go with F2P games unless they're kinda conservative with their money. Problem is, they'll often be enticed to spend more with a cash shop than they would with a subscription. Quite a lot more, in fact... For some it's in the thousands. For others it's in the tens of thousands. With certain games it can exceed that. That's a very dangerous thing to play around with and is a bit more threatening to a more aggressive spender. Of course if that makes you happy, go for it. It's your money and your choice of spending on pleasurable goods and services, after all. And nothing forces you to pay a dime. Other than skills in Maplestory, rebirths in practically any game that has them, progression limits or withheld content, and... oh, nevermind. But in theory, you don't have to pay anything!
I definitely understand that P2P games feel like paying rent and almost "enslave" you in a sense to play the game. But that's back on the financial stuff.
As for an open world MMORPG... there are some, but they're mostly complete garbage. You can go try Hunter Blade, for example, which is "kind of" open world, or RYL (now Return of Warrior), which can be somewhat skill based depending on the class but is very dated today. I suppose there's RaiderZ as well. I understand your concerns about this, though, and feel more will be made to fill that gap as the years go on. Things are certainly heading in that direction.
Try TERA, by the way. It's actually a legit open world MMORPG where skill does matter. And it's free. Free as in you can download it right now without any purchase or commitment and play it, free. And skill-based as in you can solo things with lesser gear that a party with greater gear cannot beat. Other than that, there's pretty much nothing noteworthy I can think of, unfortunately.
Some games make great profit doing ftp and its just as good as a Ptp but yea i agree with some points. Though I consider mabinogi a better game with more depth than most mmos including wow or tera. I mean Tera is great combat wise, but I wouldnt consider it an actual Sandbox as sandbox focus more on character and world customization, also including a hunger system, housing, (maybe even buyable stores) and building towns and many life skills
Mabi is probably one of my favorite games of all time actually I've been playing it for over almost 5 years. Its just other mmos that tend to grind my gears
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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2013-08-17 23:27
There's pretty much nothing then. That's very specific and a lot of requests.
F2P can do better than P2P... but it's often not better for the player! Money has to come from somewhere, after all.
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psyal wrote on 2013-08-17 23:30
If I recall, someone made a nice comparison chart between the typical F2P and P2P game.
In case no one else reposts it here, I'll give a bit of my personal reasoning.
MMO's have a constant upkeep cost, such as maintaining/investing in servers, electricity, good internet service, programmers, other employees, etc.
As such, they're unquestionably going to have to constantly be getting more money somehow.
And so, they have a choice: F2P or P2P, or perhaps B2P
If they choose F2P, the game will be refocused to encourage spending, with prices being on the boundary of too much and just right. Of course, you can choose the free route, but that means you're saving less money than minimum wage with the amount of extra time you'll need.
If they choose B2P, the game will be rather decent. However, some spending can give you access to some perks, or make your life a bit easier. It's pretty much the same as a F2P setup, except that your life without spending isn't terrible, you just miss out on a few nice things.
If they choose P2P, the game will be decent. You can probably buy paid items from other players, and maybe even game time.
However, there's other reasons, such as the fact that you won't see many bots, goldsellers, or young children on a P2P MMO, due to the fact that you have to pay to make an account, and getting banned doesn't give you a refund. And, if you're working and making money, $15 is almost a maximum of two hours of work, and is a relatively inexpensive monthly cost.
I do say though, F2P games are good to use when you're trying out gaming with friends, just make sure to choose a good one.
I suppose I'll also inform you that, if I recall, you can play B&S for free with some limits currently. Still will take time to come to the west though.
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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2013-08-18 00:59
B2P doesn't necessarily have additional spending at all. Both Diablo 1 and 2 are still running to this day and you literally can't buy anything for them other than physical strategy guides or something, which they may or may not even get a cut of money from. They even update D2 every once in a while and reset the ladders, but that's rare. And it has(/had?) tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of players on at once at pretty much any given time.
It's my understanding that the original Guild Wars doesn't have a cash shop either.
Botters and goldsellers make
more on P2P and B2P games if they're serious about it because any barrier of entry for the everyday botter will drive gold prices up, making it more lucrative for "professionals" to destroy the economy with an army of bots. And as soon as they're set up, they'll just keep going for as long as the game exists. The $15-60 paid per account really is nothing in comparison to the money to be made from this. I know it seems like a lot when you look at it and think, "well damn, that's thousands of dollars just to start and they could lose the accounts", but that's really going to be recovered in a matter of weeks (if that) to a month depending on the game. This is why practically all the professional botters play games like WoW whereas Maplestory and Runescape are made up of people largely botting on single accounts for personal gain. That doesn't mean they aren't there, just that the majority of the serious ones moved elsewhere.
And, if you're working and making money, $15 is almost a maximum of two hours of work, and is a relatively inexpensive monthly cost.
It's worth keeping on mind that the same $15 could be spent on, for example, a better internet connection. $15 means a lot of different things to a lot of different people even at the rates it can be earned.
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Chiyuri wrote on 2013-08-18 01:02
Quote from RebeccaBlack;1137253:
B2P doesn't necessarily have additional spending at all. Both Diablo 1 and 2 are still running to this day and you literally can't buy anything for them other than physical strategy guides or something, which they may or may not even get a cut of money from. They even update D2 every once in a while and reset the ladders, but that's rare. And it has(/had?) tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of players on at once at pretty much any given time.
It's my understanding that the original Guild Wars doesn't have a cash shop either.
Botters and goldsellers make more on P2P and B2P games if they're serious about it because any barrier of entry for the everyday botter will drive gold prices up, making it more lucrative for "professionals" to destroy the economy with an army of bots. And as soon as they're set up, they'll just keep going for as long as the game exists. The $15-60 paid per account really is nothing in comparison to the money to be made from this. I know it seems like a lot when you look at it and think, "well damn, that's thousands of dollars just to start and they could lose the accounts", but that's really going to be recovered in a matter of weeks (if that) to a month depending on the game. This is why practically all the professional botters play games like WoW whereas Maplestory and Runescape are made up of people largely botting on single accounts for personal gain. That doesn't mean they aren't there, just that the majority of the serious ones moved elsewhere.
It's worth keeping on mind that the same $15 could be spent on, for example, a better internet connection. $15 means a lot of different things to a lot of different people even at the rates it can be earned.
There exist methodes to just entirely block those botting cheaters but.. such methods come with heavy cost for the playerbase...
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RebeccaBlack wrote on 2013-08-18 02:50
There really is no method to stop a person that has a big enough financial interest in breaking the system. Even if they were to kill public bots (which is very possible), they'd still end up in a persistent endless fight against private, paid ones where people looking to make money will invest a lot to have access. That, and Chinese goldfarmers in particular create their own programs and scripts on their own oftentimes.
This is not a minor thing. This is a billion dollar industry. And really, it isn't spread over that many games as far as the bulk of the income goes. There's plenty of reason to take this as seriously or perhaps even moreso than stealing credit card info or things of that nature. For the goldfarmers, I mean.
The options are really to integrate it into the system like Diablo has or to accept it as the cost of doing business. As long as there's enough money to be made, someone, somewhere will be on it.
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Compass wrote on 2013-08-18 18:24
1. Because rare equpment are usually the strongest for the level (and class). If these equipments were made common the game would provide little to no challange. Not only that, but also helps the game's economy.
2. Some games actually have enemy AI that's varied. Not as varied as you want them to be because they're MMOs.
3. " y can't ppl b nice ;___;"
4. Most MMOs are RPGs, you'll probably want to read the wikipedia article on RPGs why gear matters. Also if you want an MMO that doesn't rely on gear then don't play an MMORPG, play an MMOFPS like Quake Live. Complaining that MMORPGs have RPG mechanics is dumb.
5. You're hating on MMOs because they're not like Demon/Dark Souls? What a terrible reason.
6 "Why are people saying P2P is better? I just want 2 play a free game shut up guys free is better ;____;" Well then play your free game. There's a reason why WoW is #1.
7. "Why are developers making a game in a style they like? Can't they see they're not going I'm not interested and that they're supposed to appeal to me only?"
Welp. Instead of complaining why the game isn't to your liking why not just accept it for what it is? Honestly this is as dumb as your Demon/ Dark Souls complaint.
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Cyrene wrote on 2013-08-18 21:16
Quote from Compass;1137487:
1. Because rare equpment are usually the strongest for the level (and class). If these equipments were made common the game would provide little to no challange. Not only that, but also helps the game's economy.
2. Some games actually have enemy AI that's varied. Not as varied as you want them to be because they're MMOs.
3. " y can't ppl b nice ;___;"
4. Most MMOs are RPGs, you'll probably want to read the wikipedia article on RPGs why gear matters. Also if you want an MMO that doesn't rely on gear then don't play an MMORPG, play an MMOFPS like Quake Live. Complaining that MMORPGs have RPG mechanics is dumb.
5. You're hating on MMOs because they're not like Demon/Dark Souls? What a terrible reason.
6 "Why are people saying P2P is better? I just want 2 play a free game shut up guys free is better ;____;" Well then play your free game. There's a reason why WoW is #1.
7. "Why are developers making a game in a style they like? Can't they see they're not going I'm not interested and that they're supposed to appeal to me only?"
Welp. Instead of complaining why the game isn't to your liking why not just accept it for what it is? Honestly this is as dumb as your Demon/ Dark Souls complaint.
I'm not hating on mmos I'm calling out the things I dislike about them that is almost in every mmo. My post may not be the most well worded or best explained but I'm not hating.
I'm playing mabi just fine without gear.
Gear that matters depends on the game and what system and math the game is built upon. I hate the fact that most mmos rely on 2 dps, healer, buffer, tank. A lot of it is repetitive. Most mmos are exactly the same with a varying theme. Kung fu or fantasy or sci fi. Choose. They will all have the same type of gameplay with one extra feature that makes it "different" from the rest.
I know exactly what an rpg is. Role playing game where you take on a character/role and build that person the way you like.
I never ever once stated that they shouldnt make the game the way they like it. But I'm tired of seeing copy and paste mmos all day every day. I have a right to an opinion don't I? Very nice btw calling my example for demon souls type combat in games dumb? The combat style is possible and will be done in an mmo with open world being released. I'm saying do something a little different and more fun so that i'm not just watching numbers? Mabi did it, and that game is from 2004. Look at ultima online and how much different that was from todays copy and paste themepark.
Additions I'd like to see in mmos
1.Monsters become stronger at night.
2. status effects from weather.
for example being cold will make you drain more stamina or hit 5 percent lower? Unable to heal as quickly without a fire. (mabi has this)
3.Besides armor allow players to wear clothing instead of armor if your a warrior. You could increase a players speed of attack and they lose out on defense.
4. A lot of games forget to add actual character customization like age of wushu. It would have been a perfect game if everyone didn't look exactly the same.
5. Bigger cities with actual shops and stores owned my players. Like walk in stores that you can decorate and put items on show. How hard would that really be to implement? Take guild wars 2 for example with all those houses in the human town that are just there. You could make the shops instance so they don't add lag to entering the town.
6. Inns with actual rentable rooms? Healing you and supplying you with a bed for the night. Can store your items for as long as you rent it. An alternative for players who cant afford real housing.
7. for a nice touch maybe add npcs that actually walk around doing things. Like sweeping or cooking in their houses.
8. This might sound silly but when buying from an npc or trading between another player. Have an actual animation of that player or npc giving you a box or something.
9. Like planet calypso make everything in the game buyable? which is cool but have a good combat system which is why i refer to demon souls. I'm not saying like demon souls exactly but make it so that dodging or block is atually usefull.
Or hell more games with mabi esq combat. Just more balanced. Tired of seeing the 1 tank 2 dps and healer or buff thing parties with the dungeons being the same thing with maybe just increased hp if you do it at a different difficulty.