Red or Blue stones? This does the work for you!

• drezzt wrote on 2013-08-23 20:24

  Quote from Kenero;1139645:

  It does. 1 prot = -2% crit.
  
  But if you think about it... 50 prot = -100% crit, so to effective do 30% crit to an enemy, you only need 130% crit.
  
  If you have an enemy with 60 prot... it is 60 * 2 = -120% ... then to do 30%, you need to do 150%
  
  With an enemy with 70 prot... it is 70 * 2 = -140% crit chance, so you need 170% crit chance to do a full crit.
  
  However, you can reduce an enemy's protection.
  
  Let's take Peaca Ghost.
  
  They have 70 prot, so you need 170% crit to have the full 30%.
  
  If you lower it by 10 from bone dragon ,it becomes 60 prot, meaning you only need 150% to do the full crit chance.
  
  If you lower it another 10% from spinning uppercut, its prot becomes 50... which lowers it further to 130% to do full crit chance.
  
  If you use brionac, it permenantly takes away an enemy's protection by -3% PER hit. You can effectively bring an enemy with high prot, like 70%... all the way down to 0%.

  
  
  Yeah, I must have forgotten to turn my brain on the first time i read it. Your math is as impeccable as usual.
• Rydian wrote on 2013-08-23 20:52

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  First of all, you're taking what I said completely out of context with that quote. Did I say that the average player is 2k? No, I didn't.

  Well, you said that it's easy to hit the cap for the average player, then went on to say you had 100% at 2K. :P
  
  

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  [SPOILER="total levels"]Considering the length of time that the game has been around, and that the availability of 3 week rebirth has been around as long as i've been playing at least (which is around a year), you can argue that for the average player (So not the new players, not the inactive players, not the vet players, the average player) has had at least 17 rebirths in their time playing, assuming they've been playing for about a year without paying or for a few months paying for weekly rebirths. Level 90 is a fair average to assume, considering that on my first ever 3 week rebirth, playing the game, without any help, I managed to get to level 80 from 1. I didn't know about single day rebirth before level 100 back then or anything, and I didn't nolife the crap out of Mabi. 17 by 90 gives you 1.5k, which would be by far a lower bound estimate for the average player. In my experience, the average player would be more around 2-3k, although I can't give you any statistics or maths to back that up. It's just my experiences on my server. Now, irregardless of the total level, it's quite easy to hit the crit cap. Looking at non-smithed artisaned battle swords alone, with a decent roll (60+ luck, which is easy with artisan kits and not too difficult without NX because of the availability), you get nearly 40% crit just from your weapons alone, with no enchants, no stats, no nothing. [/SPOILER]

  [spoiler="response"]Most of the people I've met and most of the the friends I play with do not have at least 17 rebirths and do not hit 80 per rebirth.
  
  My point is people on Mabinogi forums who play 'seriously' and have played for a while need to realize that the average player has not had their character that long or with that much time put into it.[/spoiler]
  
  

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  The point that i'm making is that it's really easy to get crit. I've discussed this in my guild chat a few times now: If you're a lower levelled player and don't have the stats to back up the better upgrades/weapons, then chances are that you don't have the enchants, or can't afford the special upgrades anyway. Enchants are a better use of money then special upgrades at first unless you are really, really lucky. And even then, it's not hard to get or hunt some cheap enchants.
  
  Now, if you are in the situation where:
  -You don't have the stats to back up R upgrades as the better option and/or are low levelled
  -You're somehow filthy stinking rich
  -You also somehow have a fully decked and activated enchant set and still don't have enough crit/damage

  "But enchanting sucks."
  
  No seriously, look at the game as it is now, and look at the people who are coming into the game. Then tell those people they have a choice of...
  
  1 - Getting upgrade stones, which drop from events, ancients, dungeons, shadow missions, and other places. 30K a pop for a 50% up/down a stage into your weapon at any major town any time you want. No skills needed, no time limits.
  
  2 - Finding time-limited enchant scrolls or burning enchants off an item with a failure rate, then looking up info on the wiki or elsewhere about which enchants to do in sequence and then getting THOSE enchants on (including sometimes bridging across item types?), getting their enchant rank up or getting the cooperation of a high-enchant player for some of them, and then either buying a protection potion or just really hoping that the weapon's durability is not irreparably damaged on each enchant (because yes, you can lose dura even at a rank F fail).
  
  As far as the average player is concerned, upgrade stones are way easier than enchants because there's way less work going into them, and they don't risk killing the weapon (except from rank 5->6, which is the final stage and can simply not be done, an option you don't have with enchanting).
  
  

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  However, it's always my intention to give the best advice possible.

  It's my intention to give advice that pertains to the user asking the question. That's why I made the calculator, so people can see what actually applies to them (outside of magic as I'm unsure what the new formula will be that we're getting whenever).
  
  

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  When someone asks about special upgrades and specifies only a few things (Such as their total level or their maximum damage, or playstyle), then i'm going to give advice that caters to the 99%, not to the 1%.

  See, there's that whole "I'm assuming the average player is a high total and has played a lot" thing surfacing again...
  
  
  

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  MA is Martial Arts. Kenero's referring to the spinning uppercut skill, which debuffs the opponent for 30 defence and 10% protection at rank 1.

  Oh yeah, that's very useful.
  
  

  Quote from Gensokyou;1139507:

  It's also not about having or not having a bone dragon.
  
  And that's not even taking into account skills that ignore protection, like most things that hits more then 1 mob at once :x

  But that's not all skills or play styles, which is why the calculator shows the average damage at varying crit rates.
  
  

  Quote from Kenero;1139540:

  I understand where you are going from, and if you do not meet the requirements for red, then blue is superior... however, red is always a long term investment. Whether that person believes it is worth the investment is up to them.

  Yeah, Red is better than Blue for longer than Blue is better than Red... but the advantage that Blue has over Red at any point is bigger than the advantage Red has over Blue when the absolute difference is the same (from the breaking point).
  
  

  Quote from Kenero;1139602:

  If I had to choose as a newbie, I would rather not SG my weapon and just stick to the fomor or normal variants until I get strong enough and financially stable to make use of red, or expect a long term investment...

  Yeah I'm still on fomor weapons myself, simple due to how effing cheap and available they are while still being better base than the normal kind.
  
  

  Quote from frozenwilderness;1139644:

  crit ain't gonna be throwaway come stat revamp
  
  monsters that reduce 60% of ur dmg r probably going to have like 90 something protection
  
  though the monsters with 50 or under are gonna be easier to crit
  
  unless they change the crit chance vs. protection formula too

  This is actually the info that prompted me into looking at the whole crit versus base thing that lead into this! It seems weird that (like you said unless crit-reduction/protection's relationship is changed) there's only going to be certain skills you can reliably critical with anymore past basic.
• Poptart wrote on 2013-08-23 20:58
  There's two factors, very important in mabinogi -as a game-, that people seem to forget one or the other of when the blue vs red discussion comes up!
  
  #1: Which do you, personally, PREFER? I go for blue on just about everything because I prefer the stability. Also, because I don't normally grind life skills (not enough patience xD), my damage tends to be a bit mediocre and blue makes up for that.
  
  #2: Which looks better to -you-? I like blue on most, but red does look cooler on bows and guns...
  
  A combination of which is the best stat-wise, which looks better, and which you personally prefer- that's always gonna be my advice when it comes to this :thumb:
  
  End of the day, we can debate the exact numbers -forever-; but there isn't really enough difference to matter. Endgame, you'll take out all the mobs anyway; mid or early game, it's usually just gonna cost you a few seconds to counterattack or assault slash or just attack an extra time.
  
  Of course certain power players will disagree, but meh. :bow:
• Azareel wrote on 2013-08-24 21:31
  Scanned through the thread; saw nothing but opposition/arguing/nitpicking/whatever. So, let me (apparently) be the first to say thanks to the OP for going out of his way to make this tool a thing. While many of the regular posters here are past the threshold that you would actually need to decide, there are going to be those who aren't in such a position, and this could prove helpful.
  
  Having said that, I propose that this be considered for an addition to the tools menu, especially as it gets refined/improved upon.
  
  OP, I suggest, for the special cases of alchemy and magic weapons, you make clear the benefits of either side, what is generally preferred, and why, instead of attempting a calculation. At least in the early stages of the tool's development.
  
  
  Note that in my post, I assume it's not quite finished, as only three weapon types are currently added.
  
  Edit:
  

  Quote from Gaby5011;1139501:

  Thank you!

  
  Looks like I missed this. +Rep for you, then.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-08-25 05:51

  Quote from Kenero;1139645:

  It does. 1 prot = -2% crit.
  
  But if you think about it... 50 prot = -100% crit, so to effective do 30% crit to an enemy, you only need 130% crit.
  
  If you have an enemy with 60 prot... it is 60 * 2 = -120% ... then to do 30%, you need to do 150%
  
  With an enemy with 70 prot... it is 70 * 2 = -140% crit chance, so you need 170% crit chance to do a full crit.
  
  However, you can reduce an enemy's protection.
  
  Let's take Peaca Ghost.
  
  They have 70 prot, so you need 170% crit to have the full 30%.
  
  If you lower it by 10 from bone dragon ,it becomes 60 prot, meaning you only need 150% to do the full crit chance.
  
  If you lower it another 10% from spinning uppercut, its prot becomes 50... which lowers it further to 130% to do full crit chance.
  
  If you use brionac, it permenantly takes away an enemy's protection by -3% PER hit. You can effectively bring an enemy with high prot, like 70%... all the way down to 0%.

  
  
  Brionac and shadow spirit effects only apply to Boss tagged mobs.
  
  
  Shadow spirit reduces defense and protection as well.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-08-25 05:51

  Quote from Kenero;1139645:

  It does. 1 prot = -2% crit.
  
  But if you think about it... 50 prot = -100% crit, so to effective do 30% crit to an enemy, you only need 130% crit.
  
  If you have an enemy with 60 prot... it is 60 * 2 = -120% ... then to do 30%, you need to do 150%
  
  With an enemy with 70 prot... it is 70 * 2 = -140% crit chance, so you need 170% crit chance to do a full crit.
  
  However, you can reduce an enemy's protection.
  
  Let's take Peaca Ghost.
  
  They have 70 prot, so you need 170% crit to have the full 30%.
  
  If you lower it by 10 from bone dragon ,it becomes 60 prot, meaning you only need 150% to do the full crit chance.
  
  If you lower it another 10% from spinning uppercut, its prot becomes 50... which lowers it further to 130% to do full crit chance.
  
  If you use brionac, it permenantly takes away an enemy's protection by -3% PER hit. You can effectively bring an enemy with high prot, like 70%... all the way down to 0%.

  
  
  Brionac and shadow spirit effects only apply to Boss tagged mobs.
  
  
  Shadow spirit reduces defense and protection as well.
• wildk wrote on 2013-08-25 07:30

  Quote from Azareel;1140030:

  Scanned through the thread; saw nothing but opposition/arguing/nitpicking/whatever. So, let me (apparently) be the first to say thanks to the OP for going out of his way to make this tool a thing. While many of the regular posters here are past the threshold that you would actually need to decide, there are going to be those who aren't in such a position, and this could prove helpful.
  
  Having said that, I propose that this be considered for an addition to the tools menu, especially as it gets refined/improved upon.
  
  OP, I suggest, for the special cases of alchemy and magic weapons, you make clear the benefits of either side, what is generally preferred, and why, instead of attempting a calculation. At least in the early stages of the tool's development.
  
  
  Note that in my post, I assume it's not quite finished, as only three weapon types are currently added.
  

  
  
  Well, it discussion matters to the development of the program since the choice of upgrade is largely affected by the critical rate, which is a variable here depending on the monster, your stats and skills used.
  
  Regardless, thank you to the OP for the program ^.^
• Rydian wrote on 2013-08-25 10:34
  As far as Blue wands, from what I've read on the forums the "+% Magic Damage" will become "+% Magic Attack" as of the Druid update, is this correct? So right now users would input their MA as well and the base max damage of the spell and the calculations would be...
  [code](base + (base * MA)) + (base * MD)[/code]Where MA is their Magic Attack and MD is the +% Magic Damage (both as int).
  
  But after the update, it'd just be...
  [code](base + (base * (base_MA + bonus_MA))[/code]
  (Both of the above will then use the critical damage calculations to show average damage at varying effective crit rates.)
  
  Wheres Red is and will still be calculated the same way as melee weapons, just gotta' take the MA into account.
  
  But the problem with showing the numbers there is that critical calculation is done off of what the normal hit would be, which with magic takes varying elemental weapon multipliers into account first, right?
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-08-25 11:05

  Quote from Rydian;1140247:

  As far as Blue wands, from what I've read on the forums the "+% Magic Damage" will become "+% Magic Attack" as of the Druid update, is this correct??

  
  
  Incorrect. +% Magic Damage will become +Magic Attack. No percents.
  
  Make sure you check out this thread: http://mabination.com/threads/74288-Mabinogi-Zero-Merlin-Update-(Information-Consolidated-and-Organized)
  
  The S upgrades are changed to be Magic Damage% * 4 = Magic Attack
  
  Step 1: +3% Magic Damage -> +12 Magic Attack
  Step 2: +6% Magic Damage -> +24 Magic Attack
  Step 3: +9% Magic Damage -> +36 Magic Attack
  Step 4: +13% Magic Damage -> +52 Magic Attack
  Step 5: +17% Magic Damage -> +68 Magic Attack
  Step 6: +21% Magic Damage -> +84 Magic Attack
  
  Also Post Zero the Magic Formula is Spell Damage + (Magic Attack * Spell Coefficient) = Final Damage
  
  Looking into the elemental masteries and bolt mastery/fusion mastery to see if they were modified to be fixed values instead of %'s as well. Also don't forget to factor in Magic Weapon Mastery which boosts bolt damage by 150%
  
  Also your current formula is way off. What we have now is infinitely more complicated than that.
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Magic_damage#Magic_Damage
  
  { [ ( spell_damage * full_charge_multiplier ) + wand_bonus ] * charge_multiplier + ( damage_enchants * spell_constant ) } * ( 1 + magic_attack/100 + elemental_mastery_bonus + bolt_mastery_bonus + staff_elemental_level_bonus + hebona_set_bonus + rosemary_glove_bonus ) * ( 1 + normal_upgrade_bonus + title_bonus ) * ( 1 + special_upgrade_bonus ) * 1.1 * thunder_multiplier
• Rydian wrote on 2013-08-25 11:23
  Yeah, that was my concern with the last sentence.
  
  I'm going to plead laziness when it comes to the magic formula.
• Azareel wrote on 2013-08-25 22:03

  Quote from Rydian;1140256:

  Yeah, that was my concern with the last sentence.
  
  I'm going to plead laziness when it comes to the magic formula.

  
  
  That's why I suggested what I did for the time being.
  
  

  Quote from wildk;1140193:

  Well, it discussion matters to the development of the program since the choice of upgrade is largely affected by the critical rate, which is a variable here depending on the monster, your stats and skills used.
  
  Regardless, thank you to the OP for the program ^.^

  
  
  I wasn't having an issue with the discussion. It just bothered me that I didn't see anyone bother to thank the OP [S]because I missed link's post[/S].
• Rydian wrote on 2013-08-26 08:04
  Yeah, but I've never stoned a cylinder or wand, I might as well be make the intro page link to the wiki and Kenero's thread for those.
  
  EDIT: Done that now.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-08-26 11:17

  Quote from Rydian;1140592:

  Yeah, but I've never stoned a cylinder or wand, I might as well be make the intro page link to the wiki and Kenero's thread for those.
  
  EDIT: Done that now.

  
  
  I hate to cherry pick but that's my Thread, not Kenero's.
• Rydian wrote on 2013-08-27 15:40

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1140648:

  I hate to cherry pick but that's my Thread, not Kenero's.

  Both start with a K at least, that's my excuse!
• Rydian wrote on 2015-02-08 17:47
  Alright, bringing this back up for a little updating.
  
  Shurikens and Mana Knuckles use 1-handed Red and 2-handed Blue upgrades. Is there anything else that does this or has a different type of upgrade now? If not I'll just add Shuriken / Mana Knuckles as a 4th option in the list.
  
  Also is the magic formula now something that can fit into this, or would it be better to make a separate calculator for that since users would have to input a bunch of additional info?