Should I reroll my Ice Spear Max level 17 reforge? Is a hermit's staff viable for me?

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MIKEHUNT wrote on 2013-10-03 17:21

Hi guys,

I have a few questions

With the advent of the englightentment my ice spear damage with a level 17 ice spear reforge has fallen significantly.
I used to be able to push out 6-7k normal full charges and 17k crust easily but now that number has been reduced to something along the lines of 4-5k normal and the very highest crit I've seen is only 14k...

This update puts a HUGE weight on MATK so should I REROLL IS max 17 for a MATK REFORGE?

Also, I've never bothered to get fireball but the rest of my magic tab is capped and I have capped int life skills minus magic craft and hillwen engineering. I also have capped musical knowledge and composing. Will r1 fireball and it's 64 int boost my ice spear damage noticebly?

SECOND QUESTION
I have a step 6 max roll artisan max roll mana needle island lightning wand. The only reason I can see to get a hermits staff is if I step 6 it (which i wont). Without a step six on a max roll hermit staff (which I also wouldn't bother to blow up with MN Island) it's on par if not only a little better than my lighting wand. I don't use hailstorm at all because I hate it's mobility and my WotG has comparable dps to hailstorm.

Should I try to get a +8 staff crafted? I'm sure thy will release +8 reforge able versions later.
alwmiioktm wrote on 2013-10-04 02:09

Ice spear max damage level 17 equates out to 325 max damage just from reforge and Ice spear rank. Included that you have r1 Ice mastery that adds another 15% + the magic attack from the wand. So Unless you could get Magic attack level 17, there would be no difference at all in your damage, the only reason I see to get magic attack damage would be for a savage ice wand (OP blaze) or perhaps a hermit staff since it can use all intermediate magic+ Hailstorm. So Stick with the reforge you have on it now. And Considering that mana needle and island's combined affects are 4-6 magic attack, it seems completely pointless to re enchant a hermit staff with anything but engineer for reduced repair cost. (Or Lizard Deadly if you don't 130+ crit to hit with hailstorm). 64 int you definitely can't say no to. You're not maxed int until you have your mage tab done. So get a hermit staff if you want to have decent damage on all your intermediate and hailstorm, unless you have a wand for each intermediate spell, and you don't like to use hail storm, then it seems like a waste of money to me. But if you're like me, you'll make one just to have convenience incase for some odd reason you want to use hailstorm, it's there.
Gensokyou wrote on 2013-10-04 02:47

The hermit staff is good if you want to hailstorm or you're a primary mage - it allows you the flexibility of using all 3 int magics, so for example you could instant cast a fireball into a room then start charging thunder to clear it, or ice spear to [S]cockblock[/S] save your teammates. It also means you only have to upgrade/reforge one item and it's not always worse then the individual wands - I believe it might actually be better then some of the individual wands, when you take the high artisan into account and such yadda yadda yadda.

Also, Wizard enchant is now the best suffix for wands and staves - Engineer's Wizard would be just a tiny bit worse then max roll mana needle island (4 matk compared to 6 matk), and you'd halve the repair costs.

Quote from alwmiioktm;1155474:
Ice spear max damage level 17 equates out to 325 max damage just from reforge and Ice spear rank. Included that you have r1 Ice mastery that adds another 15% + the magic attack from the wand. So Unless you could get Magic attack level 17, there would be no difference at all in your damage

I'd just like to point out something about this.

Ice spear max reforge is 5 base damage per level - or 85 base damage for a level 17 reforge.

MAtk reforge now gives 4 Matk per level - meaning a Matk 17 reforge would give you 68 magic attack. With Ice spear's coefficient of 1.4, that's 95.2 base damage. A level 16 reforge would give you 89.6 base damage, and a level 15 reforge would give you 84 base damage.

MAtk reforges are generally superior to their individual spell counterparts with the update now:

Fireball max 20: +300 base damage
Matk 20 (fireball): +960 base damage

Thunder max 20: +100 base damage
Matk 20 (thunder): +168 base damage

IS max 20: +100 base damage
Matk 20 (IS): +112 base damage

Hailstorm max 20: +200 base damage
Matk 20 (Hailstorm): +256 base damage

And meteor has a spell co-efficiant of 30, meaning the individual reforge for that would have to give over 2400 damage (or 120 per level), for it to be better. I don't know the details of the meteor reforge, but it seems more likely that it would be 100 per level (And plus, who would reforge for Meteor Strike damage anyway?)

Then you have to take into account that MAtk affects all spells, and MAtk comes out to be the superior choice, especially on a hermit staff.
Kaeporo wrote on 2013-10-04 03:16

There are only three magic weapon positions you should consider pursuing.

I posted the following information on the Nexon forums in response to this question:

Could someone list me an optimal mage gear build with enchants and stuff.
I tried to google it but did not really found an accurate answer.

S6 Engineer's Used/Deadly Hermit Staff (+8 Magic Attack via Craft) w/Magic Attack 20 level.
Hail Storm and Ice Spear max damage are also powerful reforges.

- Hail Storm
- Ice Spear
- Snap Cast Fireball
- Snap Cast Thunder
- Fusion Bolt
- Meteor Strike

S6 Engineer's Savage Ice Wand (+5 Magic Attack via Craft) w/Magic Attack 20 level.
Ice Spear max damage and Blaze explosion damage are also powerful reforges.

- Ice Spear
- Blaze

S6 Engineer's Savage Fire Wand (+5 Magic Attack via Craft) w/Firebolt max damage 25 level.
Casting Speed and magic attack are also powerful reforges.

Spirit Fire Wand w/Firebolt max damage 20 level.
Casting Speed and magic attack are also powerful reforges.

- Chaincast Firebolt
- Snap Cast Fireball

Magic is a bit different from other talents in that your gear isn't very important, aside from your weapons.

Don't bother enchanting any of your gear for intelligence or magic attack. You will not see a difference in your damage output. Instead, focus on landing max damage and critical enchants in order to better support other talents which your character may pick up. The only possible exception is the Used enchant; a very rare and costly raid drop which sports incredible bonuses.

However, the following may be of some use for the dedicated:

Hebona Set Effect
- Firebolt Set Effect: Incredibly useful if you plan on taking advantage of chain cast firebolt.
- Icebolt Set Effect

Rosemary Gloves:
- Ice Damage +15%: Incredible useful if you plan on using Ice Spear and Hail Storm; two of the best spells.

Languhiris Armor:
- Circlet increases magic attack by up to 12.
- Attack Speed Set Effect

Bhafel Armor:
- Circlet increases magic attack by up to 10.
- Assault Slash Damage Set Effect
- Melee/Ranged Auto-Defense

You may also find the Trinity Set (Healing Set Effect, Mana Reduction Set Effect) to be useful.

The Holy Eagle Shield is an excellent mage shield if you plan on using wands.
Gensokyou wrote on 2013-10-04 04:27

Quote from Kaeporo;1155501:
S6 Engineer's Savage Ice Wand (+5 Magic Attack via Craft) w/Magic Attack 20 level.
Ice Spear max damage and Blaze explosion damage are also powerful reforges.

According to the wiki, blaze explosion damage is 0.1% per level. At a max level of 25, that'd give you 2.5% - less then a quarter of the damage of an elemental 2.

To put it in perspective, if you did an 80k crit blaze, you'd do 82k with the reforge. I don't see how that's really a powerful reforge.

S6 Engineer's Savage Fire Wand (+5 Magic Attack via Craft) w/Firebolt max damage 25 level.
Casting Speed and magic attack are also powerful reforges.

Spirit Fire Wand w/Firebolt max damage 20 level.
Casting Speed and magic attack are also powerful reforges.

Firebolt max reforge caps at 25 on spirit wands as well.

As for firebolt max reforge as a primary recommendation - I don't understand it unless it's in terms of reducing costs (marginally).

Assuming a fairly midtier player (200 total MAtk, no ego wand, r1 fire and bolt mastery)

[120+0.5*200+25]*[1.15+0.15]*6.5 = 2070 max. Divided by 1.5 that gives us 1380 base DPS.

Adding firebolt 25 max reforge:

[120+0.5*200+25+62]*[1.15+0.15]*6.5 = 2594 max, which gives us 1729 dps. That's a 25% increase in dps.

Now (using some extended maths) for casting speed 30:

Firebolt has a casting speed of 1.5, which is shortened to 1.16 seconds (rounding up) by casting speed 20 reforge (30% faster)

We take the original max damage of 2070 and divide it by 1.16 to get 1784 dps. That's a 29% increase in dps (and in actuality, casting speed 20 translates to a static 30% increase in dps).

So hence, even with a relatively mid-tier player without an ego wand, casting speed is better.

[SPOILER="And for high-end players:"]

MAtk of about 300 - prefix title + some minor enchants, and the rest from stats.

Ego wand of around 80 max - that's what i'm nearly at and my ego is still crap.

Bolt master title, hebona, bolt mastery 20 reforge.

Base Damage:

[120+0.5*300+25+80]*[1.15+0.15+0.15+0.1+0.2]*6.5 = 4265 divided by 1.5 = 2843 DPS

DPS of Firebolt 25

[120+0.5*300+25+62+80]*[1.15+0.15+0.15+0.1+0.2]*6.5 = 4970 divided by 1.5 = 3313 DPS, increase of 17% rounding up

DPS of casting speed 20:

[120+0.5*300+25+80]*[1.15+0.15+0.15+0.1+0.2]*6.5 = 4265 Divided by 1.16 = 3676 DPS, an increase of 29%.

Hence, as your damage goes up firebolt max gives diminishing returns.[/SPOILER]

So even when using a fairly mid-tier mage, casting speed is better - and if you're not even a mid-tier mage, I doubt your focus should be on reforging your wand. That's like telling someone with 80 strength to use a SP ele 6 knight lance.

Vivace has no effect on these come the casting speed update - it stacks multiplicatively.

MWM should add multiplicatively as well to the end of the formula meaning it would have no effect - But even assuming it goes into the multipliers, it shouldn't effect the DPS comparisons anyway.

Apart from these two small issues, I agree with your post.
Kaeporo wrote on 2013-10-04 19:07

Quote from Gensokyou;1155524:
According to the wiki, blaze explosion damage is 0.1% per level. At a max level of 25, that'd give you 2.5% - less then a quarter of the damage of an elemental 2.

To put it in perspective, if you did an 80k crit blaze, you'd do 82k with the reforge. I don't see how that's really a powerful reforge.

Blaze Explosion Damage 25 level increases the Blaze explosion damage multiplier from 4.0 at r1 to 6.5.

That's comparable to something like Ice 7 level; increasing explosion damage from 40~50k to 65~80k.

Quote from Gensokyou;1155524:
Firebolt max reforge caps at 25 on spirit wands as well.

I apologize for the typo. The original post even listed used/difficult as enchants for the Hermit's Staff, accidentally.

[SPOILER="Firebolt"]As for firebolt max reforge as a primary recommendation - I don't understand it unless it's in terms of reducing costs (marginally).

Assuming a fairly midtier player (200 total MAtk, no ego wand, r1 fire and bolt mastery)

[120+0.5*200+25]*[1.15+0.15]*6.5 = 2070 max. Divided by 1.5 that gives us 1380 base DPS.

Adding firebolt 25 max reforge:

[120+0.5*200+25+62]*[1.15+0.15]*6.5 = 2594 max, which gives us 1729 dps. That's a 25% increase in dps.

Now (using some extended maths) for casting speed 30:

Firebolt has a casting speed of 1.5, which is shortened to 1.16 seconds (rounding up) by casting speed 20 reforge (30% faster)

We take the original max damage of 2070 and divide it by 1.16 to get 1784 dps. That's a 29% increase in dps (and in actuality, casting speed 20 translates to a static 30% increase in dps).

So hence, even with a relatively mid-tier player without an ego wand, casting speed is better.

[SPOILER="And for high-end players:"]

MAtk of about 300 - prefix title + some minor enchants, and the rest from stats.

Ego wand of around 80 max - that's what i'm nearly at and my ego is still crap.

Bolt master title, hebona, bolt mastery 20 reforge.

Base Damage:

[120+0.5*300+25+80]*[1.15+0.15+0.15+0.1+0.2]*6.5 = 4265 divided by 1.5 = 2843 DPS

DPS of Firebolt 25

[120+0.5*300+25+62+80]*[1.15+0.15+0.15+0.1+0.2]*6.5 = 4970 divided by 1.5 = 3313 DPS, increase of 17% rounding up

DPS of casting speed 20:

[120+0.5*300+25+80]*[1.15+0.15+0.15+0.1+0.2]*6.5 = 4265 Divided by 1.16 = 3676 DPS, an increase of 29%.

Hence, as your damage goes up firebolt max gives diminishing returns.[/SPOILER]

So even when using a fairly mid-tier mage, casting speed is better - and if you're not even a mid-tier mage, I doubt your focus should be on reforging your wand. That's like telling someone with 80 strength to use a SP ele 6 knight lance.

Vivace has no effect on these come the casting speed update - it stacks multiplicatively.

MWM should add multiplicatively as well to the end of the formula meaning it would have no effect - But even assuming it goes into the multipliers, it shouldn't effect the DPS comparisons anyway.[/SPOILER]

Apart from these two small issues, I agree with your post.

The decision to choose Firebolt Max Damage or Casting Speed is largely personal preference. The former conserves mana and durability while the latter has a more noticeable effect on your damage output and target acquisition. When you consider that chaincast Firebolt gives you mindlessly effective end-game damage at little cost, you might as well try for a double.
Gensokyou wrote on 2013-10-05 03:09

Quote from Kaeporo;1155705:
Blaze Explosion Damage 25 level increases the Blaze explosion damage multiplier from 4.0 at r1 to 6.5.

That's comparable to something like Ice 7 level; increasing explosion damage from 40~50k to 65~80k.

Ahh, I see, it adds to the final multiplier. I thought it was a % increase in damage since it said "Blaze explosion damage %".

That's a good reforge then.
MIKEHUNT wrote on 2013-10-05 03:23

Quote from Gensokyou;1155845:
Ahh, I see, it adds to the final multiplier. I thought it was a % increase in damage since it said "Blaze explosion damage %".

That's a good reforge then.

Except that most things will die by blaze WITHOUT a reforge... The reforge would really have a use on bosses, and elite bosses only.
In any case, I've decided that I should finish my dowras before arbitrarily going on another weapon making tangent. Um, I think you guys missed the point that even if I did invest in a hermits staff, I wouldn't s6 it, and THATS why I say it would only be a slight improvement on my current lightning wand.
Syr wrote on 2013-10-06 03:22

Quote from MIKEHUNT;1155849:
Except that most things will die by blaze WITHOUT a reforge... The reforge would really have a use on bosses, and elite bosses only.
In any case, I've decided that I should finish my dowras before arbitrarily going on another weapon making tangent. Um, I think you guys missed the point that even if I did invest in a hermits staff, I wouldn't s6 it, and THATS why I say it would only be a slight improvement on my current lightning wand.

Mostly reforge for pretty numbers or to let your damage kill things quickly without crits.

Quote from Gensokyou;1155492:
Also, Wizard enchant is now the best suffix for wands and staves - Engineer's Wizard would be just a tiny bit worse then max roll mana needle island (4 matk compared to 6 matk), and you'd halve the repair costs.

Used is actually better, but it's more expensive to maintain and a prick to put on. Power-at-any-cost enchant, as always.
Gensokyou wrote on 2013-10-06 03:36

Quote from Syr;1156104:
Used is actually better, but it's more expensive to maintain and a prick to put on. Power-at-any-cost enchant, as always.

I forgot that used was a suffix. Derp.

But it's still better then Island, or whatever the current suffix is. And that's what I was getting at.