post-enlightenment: lion claw or knight lance?

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gundamweed wrote on 2013-10-31 05:47

I know this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find any recent discussion that pertains to post-enlightenment. From what I can see around these forums, everyone seems to love the knight lance, but why? Why not the lion claw lance? I don't own either, so I don't have experience, but when I compare the two in terms of numbers, it seems the lion claw lance wins out despite having lower pierce levels.

I'm a practical person, so when I'm making the comparison of these two weapons I'm gonna assume both are enchanted with Secret Penetrating and both are with a max artisan (just for the sake of keeping things simple.)

Now, from what I'm seeing, SP lion claw lance gets 130 max while SP knight lance gets 97, but the knight lance has 2 more pierce over the lion claw lance, for 10 more protection ignored, and that 10 protection doesn't seem to let it surpass the lion claw lance at any level.

Of course, trash mobs are more suspectiable to the lion claw lance, but no one cares about that. It's all about those 70% prot enemies, right? According to the wiki (http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats/Protection) on how protection is valued, having level 8 pierce can reduce that damage reduction down to 59% damage reduction at best, while the lion claw lance reduces it to 63% at worst , but when you get down to it, 37% of 130 is still better than 41% of 97. At lower levels of prot, the lion claw lance wins, and at higher levels of prot, the lion claw lance still surpasses thanks to its 130 max.

So, why isn't the lion claw lance as praised as the knight lance? Am I missing something? I don't mind jumping to either one for use, but I need to know why is everyone and their mother aiming for a knight lance on these forums when the lion claw lance can (supposedly) be just as good, if not better?

pls respond.
ironwoman wrote on 2013-10-31 08:15

First off, you're using the chart wrong. You didn't start from 70% prot mobs, you started from 70% damage reduction mobs, which would bring down from 125 protection to 80 protection, that's 70% damage reduction to 58% damage reduction. There aren't very many mobs that have that high of ridiculous amount of prot yet. If you said 70% prot, you should look at the protection itself, not the damage reduction. In that case, KL brings 70 prot down to 25, meaning 54% damage reduction to 31% damage reduction. Lion claw lance brings 70 prot down to 35, so 54% damage reduction to 38% damage reduction. That's pretty big margin if you ask me.

You're assuming that the players have 0 damage, which is impossible. By the time you're using lances, your damage is significantly higher. Let's settle at a value of 500 added to the lances KL (to account for more advanced damage). With your faulty viewing of the chart, KL gives you 244.77 (from .41*597) while Lion claw gives you 233.1(from .37*630). So even in using your impractical values due to your mistake, KL still wins. Now if we look at it at a more plausible and if you looked at the chart correctly... KL gives you 411.93 (from .69*597) while lion claw gives you 390.6 (from .62*630), and that was using the values from this first paragraph. Now if we look at even more practical situation, where a mob might be 40~50 prot (say 45), then KL completely ignores this prot and gives full 596, while lion claw gives out 529.2 (from .84*630). Basically, in all cases, from ridiculously high prot to more plausible protection, even though the gap becomes smaller as prot increases, KL still wins.

Prot =/= damage reduction, rather protection is a variable in damage reduction. Seems like you got mixed up bad on this part.

If you go to the link I posted under tropacat's thread on current melee, the guy who did 560k lance charge was using cartel penetrating lion claw, interestingly enough.
Zekkii wrote on 2013-10-31 09:04

Skimmed over most of the post above, and it seems to hit the nail or nails on the head. You don't really need to think about it too much; Knight Lances were better overall before enlightenment, and that has only been strengthened post. It doesn't have to be a decision, just use the Knight Lance.
gundamweed wrote on 2013-10-31 13:16

Ahhhh, yeah, I did miss taking into account damage from the player. Thanks for clearing this up for me, stuff gets confusing for me with this whole pierce factoring.