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Perfectio wrote on 2013-11-07 12:56
Let's say a character has 400 damage with his chosen skillset with no enchants. He then buys a Steel Needle Accessory for 10 million gold. At max roll, he has added 4% to his damage. He buys another one for another 4%. He then pays 3 million for 2 Oblivion enchants to add another 5%. So 26m gold buys this character a 13% increase in power from his original baseline. However, what if this player simply opted for say, Precise Lilly or Earthquake Stout, which can still be gotten for around 100-200k? 70 STR or Dex gives this char 28 max, or 7% damage increase. This is assuming that the player merely uses normal accessories as opposed to high stat Purple Hearts - if the player gets 16 STR or Dex from those, paying an extra 200k each on the high end, they get an 8.6% damage increase, for a high end cost of 800k. In short, at least for accessories, going for endgame enchants gives you 1.5x added max damage (a bit more for fighters, puppeteers and gunners, but not significantly more) at 32.5x the cost in gold.
A similar principle holds true for White Dragon enchants. Difficult can cost up to 7m gold and gives 15 max, up to 22.5 max for rangers and 18.75 max for puppeteers. Which sounds nice, until you realize you can get Camo for 100-200k and get 40% of the damage at most - but pay 35 times less. Solo? Get Cold-Hearted, get half the damage for 1/60% of the cost (though Solo isn't as wildly expensive).
This doesn't even consider repair modifiers, which further amp up the cost of these enchants.
Some enchants are very cost effective (Dexterity, Butterfly) but for the most part, pursuing endgame enchants is simply not an efficient use of resources, because of the vast amount of money/resources compared to the marginal return over using cheaper options.
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Gensokyou wrote on 2013-11-07 13:08
Not sure if this is supposed to be a guide or a commentary or what, but this really isn't a secret. It's pretty much the reason why Goddess isn't feasible unless it's a beginner weapon or repaired at ferghus or something - it's just that the repair cost modifiers are less and the damage is greater.
I personally maintain 2 sets of gear, one of which to derp around in and one with all those expensive cost modifiers for when I actually need to try to do a decent amount of damage.
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Kenero wrote on 2013-11-07 13:11
Hm...
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Stout(+20 strength) Earthquake (+15 strength) Accessory = 35 strength.
35 / 2.5 (1 max for melee) = 14 max damage for melee.
35/ 5 (1 max for guns) = 7 max damage for guns.
Repair Cost: Base
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Oblivion (+10 max) Avenger (+12 max) Accessory
+22 Max for Melee
+22 Max for Guns
Repair Cost: Base
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Oblivion (+10 max) Earthquake (+15 strength) Accessory
10 + (15/2.5 = 6 max) = 16 max damage for melee
10 + (15/5 = 3) = 13 max damage for guns
Repair Cost: Base
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Steel Needle (+16 max [good roll]) + Earthquake (+15 strength)
16 + (15/2.5 = 6) = 22 Max Damage for Melee
16 + (15/5 = 3) = 19 Max Damage for Guns
Repair Cost: x2
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It seems though while you do pay a premium market price for Oblivion Avenger or Steel Needle Earthquakes, they both boast much stronger attack than just Stout Earthquake.
In term of Oblivion Avenger, the repair cost would be the same. Steel Needle would bump it up by 2x, but would provide critical percentage, though Oblivion Avenger would subtract, but then again end-game and other enchants can make this pretty mute.
While yes I do agree some end-game enchants are insufficient when it comes to the boost they give vs. repair cost and how to obtain them, I'm surprised you said the Stout Earthquakes were giving 70 strength, when in truth you were comparing 2x Stout Earthquake vs. 1x Avenger or Steel Needle, with complete disregard to adding a prefix or suffix to both.
If you are going to compare 2x Stout Earthquake to the Avenger or Steel Needle, at least balance your argument in by making the other side 2x Avenger or Steel Needle and then adding a proper prefix/suffix for both since Stout Earthquake is a Prefix and Suffix Combo.
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Tarvos wrote on 2013-11-07 16:18
In my opinion, price is no issue when it comes to buying high end enchants. Because if you're at the point in the game where you'd be considering them, the game shits money to you anyway and what else are you going to do? A one time price isn't significant and you can always save up, and eventually with enough time they will pay for themselves.
Now, if we're talking repair costs on the other hand, I'm a huge stickler for that. Constant drains on funds is incredibly disheartening in my eyes, and marginal increases with constant cost are not worth it to me. I actually have separate sets of weapons for Hard Mode and lower missions (Engineer enchanted, etc.) to reduce repair costs long term.
But really though, who can say they wouldn't want to have an amazing wall-hanger like a Cartel Penetrating Demonic/Languhiris or Carved Challenger Demonic Bars just for show if they've got everything else they wanted? Little projects like that can be fun to pull off from time to time regardless of gold spent.
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Slayerj wrote on 2013-11-07 16:34
I've never had a major repair problem because I don't use stuff that costs 2x+ to repair via enchants (nor do I really use enchants still) so I've never experienced the major cost of repairs before....but it just strikes as odd that people will blow out millions for a few items they might not even use or get the lowest roll out of, then turn around and talk about how bad repair cost is, despite having just thrown millions out for a small/decent/great increase in dmg.
It's even worse when the person has already reforged their gear to double steamroll anything in the first place. I mean people already steamroll everything without much effort, I don't get why everyone wants to min/max even more, this isn't Disgaea :l lol
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Kingofrunes wrote on 2013-11-07 16:39
Quote from Tarvos;1167092:
In my opinion, price is no issue when it comes to buying high end enchants. Because if you're at the point in the game where you'd be considering them, the game shits money to you anyway and what else are you going to do? A one time price isn't significant and you can always save up, and eventually with enough time they will pay for themselves.
Now, if we're talking repair costs on the other hand, I'm a huge stickler for that. Constant drains on funds is incredibly disheartening in my eyes, and marginal increases with constant cost are not worth it to me. I actually have separate sets of weapons for Hard Mode and lower missions (Engineer enchanted, etc.) to reduce repair costs long term.
But really though, who can say they wouldn't want to have an amazing wall-hanger like a Cartel Penetrating Demonic/Languhiris or Carved Challenger Demonic Bars just for show if they've got everything else they wanted? Little projects like that can be fun to pull off from time to time regardless of gold spent.
If price is no issue then repair costs shouldn't be an issue to especially if "the game shits money at you anyways" which by the way isn't necessarily true. Most of the time I'm spending rl money to get the mabi gold I need (mostly due to laziness and not wanting to rely on luck)
Personally I'm the least worried about repair costs. I do a good job with my expensive enchants (2x oblivion avenger accessories + Conceptual Avenger Dustin) as well as my Secret Penetrating Demonic Lance and Untamed Crocodile Dowras.
Even with all my Oblivion enchants, I still have more than enough crit to blast most mobs to smithereens with a crit.
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Tarvos wrote on 2013-11-07 17:17
Quote from Kingofrunes;1167095:
If price is no issue then repair costs shouldn't be an issue to especially if "the game shits money at you anyways" which by the way isn't necessarily true. Most of the time I'm spending rl money to get the mabi gold I need (mostly due to laziness and not wanting to rely on luck)
Personally I'm the least worried about repair costs. I do a good job with my expensive enchants (2x oblivion avenger accessories + Conceptual Avenger Dustin) as well as my Secret Penetrating Demonic Lance and Untamed Crocodile Dowras.
Even with all my Oblivion enchants, I still have more than enough crit to blast most mobs to smithereens with a crit.
I haven't bought anything from this game in months with real money, and I have no problem amassing gold going about just doing dailies, a raft or two, etc., let alone actually trying to make gold. Maybe we just have a different view on the way we play the game seeing as I rarely spend cash and you seem to more often than me?
The distinction between avoiding high repair costs and high initial prices tags is that if you end up paying a ton of money for repairs, that's going to cut into your gold significantly over time with repeated use. If you keep repairing on a regular basis, over time you've lost a significant amount of cash, and it really adds up. High price tags can be justified as one time expenditures because they don't cut into that potential gold later.
I just don't like money pits, but maybe that's just a reflection of my real life spending habits.
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Perfectio wrote on 2013-11-07 19:11
Quote from Kenero;1167082:
It seems though while you do pay a premium market price for Oblivion Avenger or Steel Needle Earthquakes, they both boast much stronger attack than just Stout Earthquake.
And I never contested that. The issue is that you pay literally 30-33x the price of to get a less than 2x bump in power.
While yes I do agree some end-game enchants are insufficient when it comes to the boost they give vs. repair cost and how to obtain them, I'm surprised you said the Stout Earthquakes were giving 70 strength, when in truth you were comparing 2x Stout Earthquake vs. 1x Avenger or Steel Needle, with complete disregard to adding a prefix or suffix to both.
I did consider them. Reread the OP. I might have phrased it unclearly. But let me tl;dr.
2x Stout EQ = 28 max for 400k (or possibly 33-35 max for 800k if you use high STR Purple Hearts)
2x Oblivion Steel Needle = 52 max for 26 million, ignoring repair costs or risk mitigation costs.
@Gen, I wasn't talking about obvious stuff like Goddess, I'm talking about the super rare epeen enchants like Difficult, Solo, gacha accs, etc. While they're the best enchants in the game, they're not worth spending significant money or resources trying to acquire them, because compared to what you'd have to do to get them on something, you're getting very little.
In contrast, instead of a 4% damage boost by getting Avenger or SN, you can get a high end reforged weapon of your chosen skillset, i.e Ele 6, Act 7 20 reforge, Magic Attack/Cast Speed 20, Playing Instrument 20 reforge, or Dual Gun Mastery 20, all of which give MUCH bigger boosts to your combat effectiveness for 0.5x to 1x the cost of your SN accessory or even your Difficult Enchant Scroll with much less risk involved.
If you can get Oblivion under 1.5 it may be cost effective on some equips but the loss of Luck also means you lose potential gold via Lucky Finishes.
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Xeno wrote on 2013-11-07 19:45
The thing is, these are "end game" enchants. They're supposed to be rare, expensive, and hard to obtain. It is good that items like that exist, because it gives you a goal to accomplish even if you never actually go after it. Even a person with the "rare and expensive" Oblivion Avenger accessories still has an even more outlandish goal of two Oblivion Fierce accessories for example. These are good things to have, so players who may already have ever skill ranked, or their reforges complete, still can have something to aim for to improve themselves. Rare and exclusive items are really important to making an MMORPG work in my opinion, otherwise you end up in situations where everyone is walking around with the exact same items.
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Zekkii wrote on 2013-11-07 20:29
Quote from Xeno;1167161:
The thing is, these are "end game" enchants. They're supposed to be rare, expensive, and hard to obtain. It is good that items like that exist, because it gives you a goal to accomplish even if you never actually go after it. Even a person with the "rare and expensive" Oblivion Avenger accessories still has an even more outlandish goal of two Oblivion Fierce accessories for example. These are good things to have, so players who may already have ever skill ranked, or their reforges complete, still can have something to aim for to improve themselves. Rare and exclusive items are really important to making an MMORPG work in my opinion, otherwise you end up in situations where everyone is walking around with the exact same items.
That will never happen, ever. Not unless you spend an outlandish amount of
money on the game regularly. Also all these rare and exclusive items come exclusively from gacha.
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Genny wrote on 2013-11-07 20:53
This thread is basically
"Luxury goods are expensive."
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Tropa wrote on 2013-11-07 21:04
This also makes me think, which will be better a better suffix overall for my Guard cylinder.
Wave
If Water Cannon Rank 1, Water Alchemic Damage+15~25
If Alchemy Mastery Rank 5+, Water Alchemic Damage+18
or
Calamity
If Heat Buster Rank 1+, Fire Alchemic Damage+15~25
If Rain Casting Rank 1+, Water Alchemic Damage+30~50
If Wind Blast Rank 1+, Critical+15%
If Alchemy Mastery Rank 2+- Max Damage-50
Repair Costx7
Though Calamity gives more water damage and also gives fire damage, would I really pay 14k per point each time I need to repair? Wave seems to be the safer choice, though I am missing out on some nice damage.
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Perfectio wrote on 2013-11-07 21:14
Quote from Genny;1167186:
This thread is basically
"Luxury goods are expensive."
Sure if you don't have constraints on the resources one can invest in one's character, go ahead and buy those endgame enchants, but remember that the vast majority of players do. But the point of the thread is to show that they give spectacularly little bang for the buck compared to other forms of character progression. Also even if you have endgame reforges/stats and only average enchants, it's better to hold one's money and wait for other forms of char progression (new life skills, new weapons, revamp of old weapons such as egos, etc that could potentially give a greater bang for the buck).
Though Calamity gives more water damage and also gives fire damage, would I really pay 14k per point each time I need to repair? Wave seems to be the safer choice, though I am missing out on some nice damage.
Wave is more cost efficient by a long shot. There' no enchant in the game, NONE, that justifies a 10x cost modifier. Imo even Goddess should be toned down to like 2x.
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nandattebayo wrote on 2013-11-07 21:17
Quote from Tropa;1167191:
This also makes me think, which will be better a better suffix overall for my Guard cylinder.
or
Though Calamity gives more water damage and also gives fire damage, would I really pay 14k per point each time I need to repair? Wave seems to be the safer choice, though I am missing out on some nice damage.
I would wait and see how fast it loses durability with normal use first.
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Syliara wrote on 2013-11-07 22:35
None of these end game enchants should be pursued until your already end game and have nothing else that you really care to spend money on. These enchants are simply saying that you are "done" once youve gotten them and that theres nothing biting at the back of ur mind saying "you could have gotten better". Simply put, its marginal increase for a higher cost because you have nothing else to spend your money on, or you just want the "best". Same can be said for all of the demonic weapons (minus the gloomy sunday and the illusion bars), the repair on them goes up exponentially for such a small increase in dmg so is it really worth it? Only if you care about having the best you can possibly get.
Decent enchants for small price:
Special/encore ambush/glass fragment= Body
Oblivion camo/swarming= Gloves
Oblivion viscount/butterfly= Shoes
Oblivion Dexterity/Vine= Head
Stout/Precise/Surprising Earthquakes/Lily/Cold winters= Accessories
You can buy all of this for like no more then 10m on alexina and have a decent completed enchanted set.
Best Max Damage Place holders:
Encore Champion= Body
Steel Needle Difficult= Gloves
Solo Butterfly= Shoes
Oblivion Dexterity= Head
Oblivion Fierce= Accessories
This will cost you about 80m+. Whether or not you feel its worth it is up to ur own persona preferences, but it gives people a reason to keep playing and striving for.