Why giants can't have level 20 commerce speed?!

• Yuuki Asuna wrote on 2013-12-14 21:16

  Quote from BecomeMeguca;1178471:

  Most people don't have lvl 20 reforges....
  
  Also, I don't see how commerce is good exp. I have a lvl 20 portia and I only use it for the imp daily quest. MA spam/bandit hunt still beats it

  
  
  Your point hardly stands against the fact that there's no dura loss associated with commercing, aside from wearing the clothing.
• KINGZZ wrote on 2013-12-17 13:08

  Quote from Osu;1178572:

  I didn't miss it, the point was weighing pros and cons. Which you have -way- more pros than cons as a giant.

  
  
  i resent that! we got more cons :U
  no real range (guns don't count to short)
  our shield less charge is whore out on a reforge
  less int then any other race
  less dex than any other race (2nd tier puppeteers!)
  less clothing than any other race which is the point of this dam thread since can't wear g15 clothing :U
  we are the gods of melee that is it :imdead:
  it seems i don't see the pros being a giant for 2 years tell me o3o
• flipside101 wrote on 2013-12-17 13:53

  Quote from SUNFLARE;1178444:

  Lemme rephase that
  
  Nexon will forever hate giants with Fashion Items

  
  
  Can you blame them?
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/5eUb7]

  
  
  
  But then again....
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/5ns7c]

  
  
  
  I'm neutral on this point. :bow:
• Osu wrote on 2013-12-17 17:58
  [Spoiler="Part one. xD"]

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  i resent that! we got more cons :U

  
  
  Alright man.. I have nothing to do at work so I'm just gonna pick this whole thing apart. xD Not trying to be a dick and if it's derailing I apologize, but here we go anyway.
  
  

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  no real range (guns don't count to short)

  
  
  In all honesty, magic suffices just fine. And despite what people seem to think, giants have no issues excelling at it.
  
  

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  our shield less charge is whore out on a reforge

  
  
  Your shieldless Charge has double the damage, and you don't have to shell out around 4m to have the option of its use.
  
  

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  less int then any other race

  
  
  From the wiki:
  Current Human Total: 948 Int + 125(1073) (Talents) + 25(1098) (Grandmaster Mage) (Potential 965 + 125(1090) + 25(1115) Int)
  Current Elf Total: 952 Int + 125(1087) + 30(1107) (Potential 958 + 125(1103) + 30(1133) Int)
  Current Giant Total: 940 Int + 125(1065) + 25(1090) (Potential 936 + 125(1082)+ 25(1107) Int)
  You are 8 behind humans, and they're both behind elves. Mathematically speaking those 8 points lose you 1.6 magic attack. In the largest case(I believe) that means 19.2 points of damage off a Fireball use. -Negligible.
  
  

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  less dex than any other race (2nd tier puppeteers!)

  
  
  This is the only class in which you're "second tier." Everything else you're pretty even, or the best. (obviously I'm excluding that you're minus a talent, but if you wanna compare, elves are also minus a talent, so you're in the same boat. Humans may have them all but there's only a single talent they excel at compared to all others, and that's still at the sacrifice of their heavy armor due to the dexterity penalty)
  
  

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  less clothing than any other race which is the point of this dam thread since can't wear g15 clothing :U

  
  
  No need to get profane my friend~ This part you are right about, though. And for those who play the game for the outfits and etc., it must be a pain in the ass. I however do not really. I like a good outfit but I don't care who gets what. :P
  And really.. it's just my opinion here, but~ if you picked giant, maybe you should've had more interest in actual combat than just running around with your wagon, probably avoiding bandits all together, and going town to town for your "experience."
  (I apologize again if this particular part sounds a little harsh, but it is what it is. :P)[/spoiler]
  
  [Spoiler="Part two. xD"]

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179234:

  we are the gods of melee that is it :imdead:
  it seems i don't see the pros being a giant for 2 years tell me o3o

  
  And here we go:
  Lance+shield- And in the future, lance+guard cylinder, enabling the use of 3.5 talents in one weapon slot. (I say 3.5 and not 4 because of Defense and Counterattack not being usable with lances- Lance+battle alchemist+construct alchemist+half of warrior)
  To pile on, this means with the Shyllien mana knuckles you have a total of 6.5 talents at your disposal. (The extra third being bard once Song is out)
  Using human's two-handed swords as one-handed swords with your shields. (Having the use of an R5 or R6 two-hander while still having all the benefits of a shield and its masteries/defense bonuses)
  Vales shield- the only large shield in the game.
  Vales shield's glitch. (If it's not fixed yet)
  Heavy armor mastery only cuts 10% dexterity at rank 1.
  Heavy armor does not penalize fighter skills whatsoever.
  Highest damage boost from Chain Mastery.
  Charge- 300% damage vs. 150%, and no use of a shield required. This enables all kinds of better combo attacks regardless of what talent you're using.
  Even though you're without the archery talent, you posses Throwing Attack, a ranged skill based off of your main melee excelling stat- strength.
  Giant Full Swing.
  The highest Health, Strength, Will, and Stamina thresholds in the game.
  Tumble grants farther distancing from foes.
  600% Smash multiplier, 720% with a two-handed weapon.
  Highest bonus from using Defense.
  Higher damage from Counterattack.
  Shortest Windmill cooldown time.
  Wind Guard use. Also the combination of it with Taunt results in the best tanking imaginable.
  The use of Evasion actually moves you faster than normal movement.
  
  I could list on from this, but it would become a point of personal interest, rather than solid facts.
  
  And just for fun, the cons:
  More mana usage for spell use(minus a few), which is easily circumvented with Meditation being active.
  No Rock Throw. -I'm a human who has the use of this as an option, with also no ranged skills whatsoever-- I still don't use it.
  No Play Dead. -No real need if you ask me, too tanky to care.[/spoiler]
  
  Did we have fun? :3
• EndlessDreams wrote on 2013-12-17 18:02
  Nah, the biggest con of giant is that they can't play Fashionogi as well as Human/Elves due to less variety.
• Romanji wrote on 2013-12-17 18:33
  Personally I believe that anyone should be able to wear any "clothing".
  And giants are not the perfect combat race people think they are.
  
  Humans still possess access to the dual wielding legendary weapons, teleportation, infinite combo, Playing dead, Ranged combat up to 3000+ distance, Arrow revolver, final hit's stun immunity, two different transformations, perfect balance in stat gain.
  Elves still have access to legendary weapons, teleportation, ranged combat up to 3000+ distance, double ranged shots, final shot's stun immunity, poison ranged ability, play dead, highest int, MP, Dex, fastest movement speed, mounted range.
  
  Then nexon added charge without shield reforges, Gave all races knuckles. giants still don't have their "throw" attack fixed from 7 second cooldown, short ranged, low dps, doesn't innately knock down enemies, and has the worst damage formula of any skill, cannot be upgraded. (i digress) I spent lives not gaining any int from levels as an age 15 giant martial artist (800 int at lvl 1/1, 800 int at lvl 150/30), As for the Great Shield Function. It only works on enemies and only with defense loaded and is not "used".
  
  If anything I would say that Giants, Humans and Elves are now matched in our benefits. If anything I think nexon should add a 1 handed mastery (only affects 1 handed weapon and no secondary) , a dual wield mastery, two handed mastery, shield and weapon mastery, and hand to hand combat mastery.
  
  PS: They nerfed Protection gain. Windguard is not tanky in the slightest anymore and is truly the "stand there and die skill" unless you have no prot or def from the get-go.
  
  They nerfed Prot/Def when calculating Manashield damage reduction so giants suffered there unable to muster as much intelligence as the other races or as large a mana pool.
  
  Giants still get the lowest possible dex so puppetry isn't even viable for them, that AOE skillset that humans and elves that I run with love to smother the enemies i'm trying to >martial arts with.
  
  Not to mention Magnum shot is still by far more superior than smash being you are not stunned by your own mag, 100% splash damage, 3000+ possible range, 1 hit knockback and cannot be interrupted by normal hit if your target is farther than 5 feet infront of you *cough* 3000+ possible range infinite 500%(if unreforged) damage capability.
  
  Then we got no teleportation ability, aggro loves us and giants (when things get tough) are normally the only ones that have to "deal with it" no real escape when things get "rough".
  
  Also Vales shield is not a "glitch" It is a function of the Great Shield and again only works when defense is loaded which makes perfect sense.
  
  >and wasn't there an argument a whiiile back about how Tanking is stupid, DPS is all that matters and Tanking in mabinogi is impossible and shouldn't be considered. Believe someone was going on about how useless tank titles were.
  
  PSS: (I'm reading the thread as I go along, I've been gone a while and I enjoy contributing my 2cents)
  Lets not forget Commercing is a part of the generational content, You need to commerce in belvast to even get through some of it. It would be strange if humans and elves could not use a drill for Rare Mineralogy and instead had to use a pickaxe.
• EndlessDreams wrote on 2013-12-17 19:06

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Personally I believe that anyone should be able to wear any "clothing"
  
  

  
  
  I think the main problem is that when they designed the game, giant had a different model while Elves and Human share the same model. I see why they limit some clothing to only Elves/Human though. There is definitely less giants playing compared to Elves and Human as well.
• Romanji wrote on 2013-12-17 19:13

  Quote from EndlessDreams;1179305:

  I think the main problem is that when they designed the game, giant had a different model while Elves and Human share the same model. I see why they limit some clothing to only Elves/Human though. There is definitely less giants playing compared to Elves and Human as well.

  
  
  In a realistic sense it would make giants more viable to spend large sums of NX on to make them look "pretty" if people believed it was possible. Surprised nexon doesn't take this route.
• ironwoman wrote on 2013-12-17 19:54
  You're talking as if Giant is a race of shitter or something, let me add in some things.
  
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Personally I believe that anyone should be able to wear any "clothing".
  And giants are not the perfect combat race people think they are.
  
  Humans still possess access to the dual wielding legendary weapons, teleportation, infinite combo, Playing dead, Ranged combat up to 3000+ distance, Arrow revolver, final hit's stun immunity, two different transformations, perfect balance in stat gain.
  Elves still have access to legendary weapons, teleportation, ranged combat up to 3000+ distance, double ranged shots, final shot's stun immunity, poison ranged ability, play dead, highest int, MP, Dex, fastest movement speed, mounted range.
  
  Legendary weapons are useless, and so is final hit. The int bonus and MP bonus is also pretty insignificant compared to the STR that Elves miss or dex that Giants miss. Double shot doesn't matter for Elves, more like magnum revolver that does.
  
  Then nexon added charge without shield reforges, Gave all races knuckles. giants still don't have their "throw" attack fixed from 7 second cooldown, short ranged, low dps, doesn't innately knock down enemies, and has the worst damage formula of any skill, cannot be upgraded. (i digress) I spent lives not gaining any int from levels as an age 15 giant martial artist (800 int at lvl 1/1, 800 int at lvl 150/30), As for the Great Shield Function. It only works on enemies and only with defense loaded and is not "used".
  
  The reforge is useless for people that use lances, which happens to be many people. Yes, Nexon added Knuckles, and they also added significant buff to Giant's fighter damage, and stupidly high multiplier on smash damage. In that sense, throwing attack is fine where it is, it was never meant to be a skill to be used as a main source of attack. For large shields, Giants have the advantage here since you people can actually wear it. And it gives good stats, and no, it doesn't need defense loaded.
  
  If anything I would say that Giants, Humans and Elves are now matched in our benefits. If anything I think nexon should add a 1 handed mastery (only affects 1 handed weapon and no secondary) , a dual wield mastery, two handed mastery, shield and weapon mastery, and hand to hand combat mastery.
  
  If anything, all races are fine. Giants have the huge skill multiplier buff in fighter and melee. 1 handed mastery would be pretty meaningless for Giants, as even if they wield 2h weapon and a shield, that 2h weapon, although in our mind 1h weapon for giants, is considered 2h when it comes to skill multiplier (like smash). If you were to add these in just for Giants, then the game would turn in favor of Giants.
  
  PS: They nerfed Protection gain. Windguard is not tanky in the slightest anymore and is truly the "stand there and die skill" unless you have no prot or def from the get-go.
  
  Windguard became more and more meaningless as the game kept updating, and it will most likely stay that way.
  
  They nerfed Prot/Def when calculating Manashield damage reduction so giants suffered there unable to muster as much intelligence as the other races or as large a mana pool.
  
  This goes for any other race. It really shouldn't matter when the difference of int and MP between races are so small.
  
  Giants still get the lowest possible dex so puppetry isn't even viable for them, that AOE skillset that humans and elves that I run with love to smother the enemies i'm trying to >martial arts with.
  
  And Elves get the lowest str. As a race that's not range-oriented, wouldn't having lowest dex make sense?
  
  Not to mention Magnum shot is still by far more superior than smash being you are not stunned by your own mag, 100% splash damage, 3000+ possible range, 1 hit knockback and cannot be interrupted by normal hit if your target is farther than 5 feet infront of you *cough* 3000+ possible range infinite 500%(if unreforged) damage capability.
  
  It also misses and more lag dependent. Giants have 720% possible smash damage without buffs of any sort, and that turns into 826% with the thames set added, only thing Giants would really want to wear at the end.
  
  Then we got no teleportation ability, aggro loves us and giants (when things get tough) are normally the only ones that have to "deal with it" no real escape when things get "rough".
  
  Teleportation ability is pretty useless when the skills themselves that incorporate those are useless. Granted, Final Shot still is useful, but no one uses that to teleport. I don't see how giants are the ones that deal with the things getting rough, it's pretty much anybody.
  
  Also Vales shield is not a "glitch" It is a function of the Great Shield and again only works when defense is loaded which makes perfect sense.
  
  Of course it's not a glitch, and also, the shield does have its passive bonus added even without the skill loaded. So yes, it makes perfect sense.
  
  >and wasn't there an argument a whiiile back about how Tanking is stupid, DPS is all that matters and Tanking in mabinogi is impossible and shouldn't be considered. Believe someone was going on about how useless tank titles were.
  
  It's still not as useful and conventional in the current meta, where tanking became more viable. You can tank, but you really wouldn't get much out of it.
  
  PSS: (I'm reading the thread as I go along, I've been gone a while and I enjoy contributing my 2cents)
  Lets not forget Commercing is a part of the generational content, You need to commerce in belvast to even get through some of it. It would be strange if humans and elves could not use a drill for Rare Mineralogy and instead had to use a pickaxe.

  
  
  But yeah, having no G15 wears available for Giants is pretty stupid. It's really devCat just derping.
  Besides the no G15 wear part, I think it's pretty stupid that level 20 speed reforges can only go on selected few clothes.
• Osu wrote on 2013-12-17 20:01
  Ugh more picking apart..
  [Spoiler="Part onnnnne"]

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Personally I believe that anyone should be able to wear any "clothing".

  
  On this, I would agree, but in all honesty.. it's logical. Maybe the tailor who designed the outfit in question didn't want to make a line of clothing two or three times the size of the original.
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  And giants are not the perfect combat race people think they are.

  
  No one ever said perfect.
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Humans still possess access to the dual wielding legendary weapons, teleportation, infinite combo, Playing dead, Ranged combat up to 3000+ distance, Arrow revolver, final hit's stun immunity, two different transformations, perfect balance in stat gain.
  Elves still have access to legendary weapons, teleportation, ranged combat up to 3000+ distance, double ranged shots, final shot's stun immunity, poison ranged ability, play dead, highest int, MP, Dex, fastest movement speed, mounted range.

  
  Legendary weapons are rather overrated. They're fun and look cool, but they're not so functional as one might think.
  Teleportation? It's really not that big a deal.. anyone can mount a pet at any time and move fast, or even faster with Lance Charge- and a hell of a lot more often.
  Playing dead.. with basic giant mechanics, I really wouldn't care about it.. can you give me an example of where it'd be useful? O:
  Ranged I personally don't care for, as I don't use it.. I use everything a giant excels at and I do just fine in the game, while being the race that doesn't get the most benefit out of it, either.
  Final Hit is only that useful one on one, in which case, if used properly, removes stun immunity being a perk, as it doesn't let the target retaliate. *And in the chance it does, you shouldn't be hitting that target with this skill.
  Two different transformations that spark debates about nothing important at the end of the day, both lacking a decent attack skill which giants' transformation does have.
  Meh, I do like a human's growth, no doubt about that one. :P
  -Elven side, everything aside that I already covered..
  Stun immunity and teleportation for them especially isn't a big deal. Teleportation shortens the skill length, and the stun immunity is just gonna get their low defensed bodies killed even quicker.
  Highest intelligence, I already covered, is negligible.
  Double ranged shots.. ehh? This doesn't really even compare to anything with giants.. elves don't get lances either.
  The poison ranged ability barely does any real damage, which you yourself point out as being important.
  And the highest intelligence, mana, and dexterity combination is.. lesser than that of giants' highest strength, will, health, and stamina.
  Mounted range gets penalized.. I wouldn't even use it if I liked range, but that's me. I've seen it get people good and slashed, though. xD
  And the movement speed.. I dunno, you're still faster than humans and you can use Evasion to speed yourself up.. I'm personally not in a hurry and don't mind being the slowest race. xD
  *phew*
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Then nexon added charge without shield reforges, Gave all races knuckles. giants still don't have their "throw" attack fixed from 7 second cooldown, short ranged, low dps, doesn't innately knock down enemies, and has the worst damage formula of any skill, cannot be upgraded. (i digress) I spent lives not gaining any int from levels as an age 15 giant martial artist (800 int at lvl 1/1, 800 int at lvl 150/30), As for the Great Shield Function. It only works on enemies and only with defense loaded and is not "used".

  
  Again, 4m for the option, with half the damage. Get over that. Giant Charge is still far superior.
  Knuckles have no reason to be giant exclusive.
  Throwing Attack.. ehh, I don't feel like arguing this one. You could have literally no ranged attacks, but that's just my way of thinking I guess.
  You picked age 15, that's on you my friend.
  I don't know what you're talking about with large shields.. this is blatantly incorrect, or you worded it in a way I don't understand. o3o
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  If anything I would say that Giants, Humans and Elves are now matched in our benefits. If anything I think nexon should add a 1 handed mastery (only affects 1 handed weapon and no secondary) , a dual wield mastery, two handed mastery, shield and weapon mastery, and hand to hand combat mastery.

  
  I think elves are getting the shortest end of the stick.. might just be me again(though I know there are many others who agree xD)
  Also, did you see my submission to KR for September? I concur completely. xD[/spoiler]
  
  [Spoiler="Part twoooo"]

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  PS: They nerfed Protection gain. Windguard is not tanky in the slightest anymore and is truly the "stand there and die skill" unless you have no prot or def from the get-go.

  
  I.. how is +100 defense and 100 protection not tanky? I get that the formula is reworked, but how much damage reduction do you get now from 100 protection? And hey I never said anything about soloing.. The tank's role is drawing aggro while surviving, so the party can pick everything off.. if you're gonna die while the party is fighting, well.. don't tank for that party? :P
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  They nerfed Prot/Def when calculating Manashield damage reduction so giants suffered there unable to muster as much intelligence as the other races or as large a mana pool.

  
  They are -8 intelligence to humans, and -40 mana from a total of nearly 1000.. point?
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Giants still get the lowest possible dex so puppetry isn't even viable for them, that AOE skillset that humans and elves that I run with love to smother the enemies i'm trying to >martial arts with.

  
  You're not using the word "viable" properly here.
  Giants are gyped in dexterity though, I'll give you that.
  Though they're not forbode in any way from using puppetry, if they want to try enjoying it.
  Humans are further gyped in using fighter with heavy armor, and elves with using any melee pretty much. We've all got this, not just giants.
  And parties are parties.. the way a person acts doesn't have to do with the game. If they don't wanna be more courteous at your request, ditch 'em.
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Not to mention Magnum shot is still by far more superior than smash being you are not stunned by your own mag, 100% splash damage, 3000+ possible range, 1 hit knockback and cannot be interrupted by normal hit if your target is farther than 5 feet infront of you *cough* 3000+ possible range infinite 500%(if unreforged) damage capability.

  
  With still a chance to miss.. which I will give you, is more devCAT's fault for making stuff glitchy.
  And for dexterity gain, Magnum Shot takes a hell of a lot longer to stack up to Smash in damage potential. (For those willing to do it, all the more power to ya, this is just a personal drawback in my eyes)
  *pats your back* Alright there buddy? O:
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Then we got no teleportation ability, aggro loves us and giants (when things get tough) are normally the only ones that have to "deal with it" no real escape when things get "rough".

  
  Already mentioned teleportation..
  I have a friend in my guild who has a giant around 1k total or a little more I believe.. he takes 1's in Elites.. where's the need to "deal with it"?
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  Also Vales shield is not a "glitch" It is a function of the Great Shield and again only works when defense is loaded which makes perfect sense.

  
  I don't think you even know what I'm talking about.. lest you think taking 1 damage from a charging dragon is logical because you're sitting behind a shield that's 1/50th its size.. then I say reanalyze your idea of logic. :P
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  >and wasn't there an argument a whiiile back about how Tanking is stupid, DPS is all that matters and Tanking in mabinogi is impossible and shouldn't be considered. Believe someone was going on about how useless tank titles were.

  
  One perk isn't the whole game? :P
  

  Quote from Romanji;1179295:

  PSS: (I'm reading the thread as I go along, I've been gone a while and I enjoy contributing my 2cents)
  Lets not forget Commercing is a part of the generational content, You need to commerce in belvast to even get through some of it. It would be strange if humans and elves could not use a drill for Rare Mineralogy and instead had to use a pickaxe.

  
  This I'll give ya, I hadn't really considered this one. Though I have my suspicions about it not being the reason behind the thread.. I still admit that's a good point.[/spoiler]
  
  *phew*
• KINGZZ wrote on 2013-12-17 20:49

  Quote from Osu;1179289:

  [Spoiler="Part one. xD"]
  
  Alright man.. I have nothing to do at work so I'm just gonna pick this whole thing apart. xD Not trying to be a dick and if it's derailing I apologize, but here we go anyway.
  
  
  In all honesty, magic suffices just fine. And despite what people seem to think, giants have no issues excelling at it.
  
  
  
  Your shieldless Charge has double the damage, and you don't have to shell out around 4m to have the option of its use.
  
  
  
  From the wiki:
  Current Human Total: 948 Int + 125(1073) (Talents) + 25(1098) (Grandmaster Mage) (Potential 965 + 125(1090) + 25(1115) Int)
  Current Elf Total: 952 Int + 125(1087) + 30(1107) (Potential 958 + 125(1103) + 30(1133) Int)
  Current Giant Total: 940 Int + 125(1065) + 25(1090) (Potential 936 + 125(1082)+ 25(1107) Int)
  You are 8 behind humans, and they're both behind elves. Mathematically speaking those 8 points lose you 1.6 magic attack. In the largest case(I believe) that means 19.2 points of damage off a Fireball use. -Negligible.
  
  
  
  This is the only class in which you're "second tier." Everything else you're pretty even, or the best. (obviously I'm excluding that you're minus a talent, but if you wanna compare, elves are also minus a talent, so you're in the same boat. Humans may have them all but there's only a single talent they excel at compared to all others, and that's still at the sacrifice of their heavy armor due to the dexterity penalty)
  
  
  
  No need to get profane my friend~ This part you are right about, though. And for those who play the game for the outfits and etc., it must be a pain in the ass. I however do not really. I like a good outfit but I don't care who gets what. :P
  And really.. it's just my opinion here, but~ if you picked giant, maybe you should've had more interest in actual combat than just running around with your wagon, probably avoiding bandits all together, and going town to town for your "experience."
  (I apologize again if this particular part sounds a little harsh, but it is what it is. :P)[/spoiler]
  
  [Spoiler="Part two. xD"]
  And here we go:
  Lance+shield- And in the future, lance+guard cylinder, enabling the use of 3.5 talents in one weapon slot. (I say 3.5 and not 4 because of Defense and Counterattack not being usable with lances- Lance+battle alchemist+construct alchemist+half of warrior)
  To pile on, this means with the Shyllien mana knuckles you have a total of 6.5 talents at your disposal. (The extra third being bard once Song is out)
  Using human's two-handed swords as one-handed swords with your shields. (Having the use of an R5 or R6 two-hander while still having all the benefits of a shield and its masteries/defense bonuses)
  Vales shield- the only large shield in the game.
  Vales shield's glitch. (If it's not fixed yet)
  Heavy armor mastery only cuts 10% dexterity at rank 1.
  Heavy armor does not penalize fighter skills whatsoever.
  Highest damage boost from Chain Mastery.
  Charge- 300% damage vs. 150%, and no use of a shield required. This enables all kinds of better combo attacks regardless of what talent you're using.
  Even though you're without the archery talent, you posses Throwing Attack, a ranged skill based off of your main melee excelling stat- strength.
  Giant Full Swing.
  The highest Health, Strength, Will, and Stamina thresholds in the game.
  Tumble grants farther distancing from foes.
  600% Smash multiplier, 720% with a two-handed weapon.
  Highest bonus from using Defense.
  Higher damage from Counterattack.
  Shortest Windmill cooldown time.
  Wind Guard use. Also the combination of it with Taunt results in the best tanking imaginable.
  The use of Evasion actually moves you faster than normal movement.
  
  I could list on from this, but it would become a point of personal interest, rather than solid facts.
  
  And just for fun, the cons:
  More mana usage for spell use(minus a few), which is easily circumvented with Meditation being active.
  No Rock Throw. -I'm a human who has the use of this as an option, with also no ranged skills whatsoever-- I still don't use it.
  No Play Dead. -No real need if you ask me, too tanky to care.[/spoiler]
  
  Did we have fun? :3

  
  
  i like your style im interested in hearing your point of personal interest tbh ;D for your part 2 i could use lance + guard cylinder but using a guard cylinder wouldn't bring the full power of alchemy so i personally feel thats meh and mana knuckles as well variety vs damage (im a damage whore atm sadly) i already said were gods at melee most your part to consist of purely melee :U and no don't see you as dick i bsed with the int thing didn't think you'd go to wiki haha im not a fashinogi im irked about it cuz i want my dam piano thats all and it just seems unfair with the reforge otherwise bandit hunt and MA is my best friend for experience [S][/S]finally not someone ignorant to debate about yay~~[S][/S]
• Osu wrote on 2013-12-19 14:56

  Quote from KINGZZ;1179326:

  i like your style im interested in hearing your point of personal interest tbh ;D for your part 2 i could use lance + guard cylinder but using a guard cylinder wouldn't bring the full power of alchemy so i personally feel thats meh and mana knuckles as well variety vs damage (im a damage whore atm sadly) i already said were gods at melee most your part to consist of purely melee :U and no don't see you as dick i bsed with the int thing didn't think you'd go to wiki haha im not a fashinogi im irked about it cuz i want my dam piano thats all and it just seems unfair with the reforge otherwise bandit hunt and MA is my best friend for experience [S][/S]finally not someone ignorant to debate about yay~~[S][/S]

  
  Sorry about getting back to you late, I was enjoying my day off. xD The personal perks a giant has vs. the practical ones are the sword stances and placement of sheathed swords in my opinion.. xD they put 'em on the back like Trunks instead of the side, which.. I already think looks better, but it also helps not to pierce the arms and etc., ya know? They also just seem to have a much more focused technique by the way they hold and swing their swords.. I kinda wish we had options to choose from to customize the way our characters fight.. but I digress. xP
  I dunno though, at rank 1 Guard Cylinder Mastery only takes 10% off the damage.. I think it'd be great. I honestly find alchemy better for utility and strategy instead of big numbers anyway. xP
  I'm with you on the knuckles though too, I prefer keeping those two talents separate, but it may be a perk to someone else. x3
  So what can I say? :P There is a lot to be thankful for, but the melee aspect is undoubtedly the focus. xP
  And yeah.. I kinda live and breathe the wiki so 8D; finding that didn't take me but the five seconds it takes to type out everything haha~ I knew the difference was very small though so o3o I just wanted to be exact.
  And ahh I see.. I can't honestly.. well, I did a ton of commercing before those reforges even came, so.. xD getting up to 5m in ducats for the piano wouldn't be that big a deal to me at normal speed(though to be completely honest, I'm glad I don't have any use for it haha), so yeah.. xP;
  
  I think we oughta draw a line here though. xD Maybe a couple more replies would be alright but I'm pretty sure the thread got rather derailed from its original intent with all the giant comparison. xP
• KINGZZ wrote on 2013-12-20 20:26

  Quote from Osu;1180019:

  Sorry about getting back to you late, I was enjoying my day off. xD The personal perks a giant has vs. the practical ones are the sword stances and placement of sheathed swords in my opinion.. xD they put 'em on the back like Trunks instead of the side, which.. I already think looks better, but it also helps not to pierce the arms and etc., ya know? They also just seem to have a much more focused technique by the way they hold and swing their swords.. I kinda wish we had options to choose from to customize the way our characters fight.. but I digress. xP
  I dunno though, at rank 1 Guard Cylinder Mastery only takes 10% off the damage.. I think it'd be great. I honestly find alchemy better for utility and strategy instead of big numbers anyway. xP
  I'm with you on the knuckles though too, I prefer keeping those two talents separate, but it may be a perk to someone else. x3
  So what can I say? :P There is a lot to be thankful for, but the melee aspect is undoubtedly the focus. xP
  And yeah.. I kinda live and breathe the wiki so 8D; finding that didn't take me but the five seconds it takes to type out everything haha~ I knew the difference was very small though so o3o I just wanted to be exact.
  And ahh I see.. I can't honestly.. well, I did a ton of commercing before those reforges even came, so.. xD getting up to 5m in ducats for the piano wouldn't be that big a deal to me at normal speed(though to be completely honest, I'm glad I don't have any use for it haha), so yeah.. xP;
  
  I think we oughta draw a line here though. xD Maybe a couple more replies would be alright but I'm pretty sure the thread got rather derailed from its original intent with all the giant comparison. xP

  
  
  yea this chat is dead o3o ty for the small debate i do agree with you on alchemy and the knuckles aspect it honestly goes down to personal preference imo (im a damage whore but some others prefer utility over damage and i respect that XD) it doesn't matter ima deal with my fate and go commerce my ass off :P