[Question] Why do veterans recommend against starting puppet?

• Sebbies wrote on 2014-03-06 22:25
  Puppets can be a pretty good starting class, okay damage output with excellent crowd control. I just have one thing to say to anyone planning on doing so: learn to play with other puppeteers.
  
  If you plan to main puppets as your first skillset, then you probably don't have the stats to be able to solo most things, or even do much damage in things like lords and MA. If you're not soloing, you're in a party. If you're in a party, the chances of there being a puppeteer much more powerful than you are fairly high. Know when to take shotgun and play off of the other puppeteer. Know when to use your skills so you're not nullifying someone else's act 6 or act 7.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-03-08 18:43

  Quote from ichigoyeh;1204448:

  4. Puppetry's two passive damage increasing skills (puppet/control) amount to 263 ap

  
  
  Did you seriously just neglect the other marionette? That's one of the worst things you can do for the skillset. You just proved the other's points about not knowing puppetry.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-03-08 19:36

  Quote from Darkboy132;1204979:

  Did you seriously just neglect the other marionette? That's one of the worst things you can do for the skillset. You just proved the other's points about not knowing puppetry.

  
  
  He's saying this because the other marionette wouldn't add bonus. If you wanted to be ap-efficient with the same damage, ranking just one marionette is sufficient. It's not necessary to have both pierrot and colossus at rank 1.
  
  But to actually be useful later on and have master puppeteer title? Then yes, you'd need both to be rank 1.
  
  The worst thing you could do with puppetry would be neglecting crisis and climactic crash.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2014-03-10 07:51

  Quote from ironwoman;1204987:

  He's saying this because the other marionette wouldn't add bonus. If you wanted to be ap-efficient with the same damage, ranking just one marionette is sufficient. It's not necessary to have both pierrot and colossus at rank 1.
  
  But to actually be useful later on and have master puppeteer title? Then yes, you'd need both to be rank 1.
  
  The worst thing you could do with puppetry would be neglecting crisis and climactic crash.

  
  
  Ranking one and not the other is the dumbest thing you can do. Especially if you are new.
  What's going to happen when a large chunk of your damage is gone because you opted to not rank the other one.
  
  
  
  
  Also, take it from someone who does math extensively and also has a deep knowledge about the skillset, puppets are good early, mid, and end game, you have to be smart and quit playing into the omg not 400-500 max+ bandwagon everyone does.
  
  You can easily get 300 puppet max by level 1-2k, and you will be a great help to your party. Keep in mind, there is no content in the game that requires reforges or obnoxious damage. People need to stop thinking that. Until there is harder content, all we have gotten the past 2-3 years is power creep.
  
  Puppet is an excellent skillset if you get the whole lolsolonogi mindset out of your head.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-03-10 19:28

  Quote from Aubog007;1205341:

  Puppet is an excellent skillset if you get the whole lolsolonogi mindset out of your head.

  
  
  You said it right there. Of course puppet isn't a "bad" skillset through out the whole game because the chance is, you'll have a party to go with. And thanks to the utility it gives, even if you do have lower damage, it shines in party plays.
  
  But sometimes you will have to solonogi. And if you're only using puppet all the way through... it'll be rather inefficient due to lower clearing time thanks to cooldown. Or even lack of back up plans. One example is commerce. Granted, you can always say that you can go with other people, but that will likely not be the case. In that case, you'd need to be able to solo bandits, and I'd expect being able to solo masters to truly be able to solo. You'd need much more than just puppet skills ranked to kill those things.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-03-10 21:03

  Quote from ironwoman;1205419:

  One example is commerce. Granted, you can always say that you can go with other people, but that will likely not be the case. In that case, you'd need to be able to solo bandits, and I'd expect being able to solo masters to truly be able to solo. You'd need much more than just puppet skills ranked to kill those things.

  
  
  Provided they don't drop my FPS, I can solo master bandits just fine with puppetry and only puppetry. Of course, my stats are bolstered from other skills and talents if that's what you meant by ranking other things.
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-10 21:58
  Just putting in my contribution to a thread that already has enough discussion as it is...
  
  Refer to the following screenshot, where I use a Black Star (non-reforged) to attack a Brown Dire wolf using Flash Launcher.
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/JXi7Tu8.jpg]

  
  
  Then look slightly to the left to my Dual Guns skill window, and laugh at my skill ranks.
  Then look back to the right and wonder how I could've achieve such a damage with just a weapon.
  I hope to have supported the previous players' claims.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-03-10 22:13

  Quote from Chihaya;1205445:

  Just putting in my contribution to a thread that already has enough discussion as it is...

  
  
  Where's your *ahem* "laughable" stats and your "laughable" critical hit skill rank?
• Chihaya wrote on 2014-03-11 03:31

  Quote from Darkboy132;1205448:

  Where's your *ahem* "laughable" stats and your "laughable" critical hit skill rank?

  
  
  My point was to say that stats is really the meat of raising the damage--not the skills or even the weapon (only to a certain extent)
  What good is a end-game weapon and r1 all skills if you don't have the stats? While it's true that skills are often accompanied by stats, Puppetry seems to be an exception to that rule. When puppetry was released, I saw grandmaster puppeteers doing less damage than me, a "great" puppeteer, just because they had the lower STR+DEX values.
  
  Just an FYI in case you didn't realize that.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2014-03-11 05:34

  Quote from ironwoman;1205419:

  You said it right there. Of course puppet isn't a "bad" skillset through out the whole game because the chance is, you'll have a party to go with. And thanks to the utility it gives, even if you do have lower damage, it shines in party plays.
  
  But sometimes you will have to solonogi. And if you're only using puppet all the way through... it'll be rather inefficient due to lower clearing time thanks to cooldown. Or even lack of back up plans. One example is commerce. Granted, you can always say that you can go with other people, but that will likely not be the case. In that case, you'd need to be able to solo bandits, and I'd expect being able to solo masters to truly be able to solo. You'd need much more than just puppet skills ranked to kill those things.

  
  
  I'd love to see range or melee do that without stat boosting skills.
  The only tab that can, is mage. And that's because Int itself doesn't do jack shit for magic damage compared to other skillsets
  
  Before puppets and CS reforges, i struggled with master bandit spawns in commerce with melee. When puppet came out, holy shit i was a god. The amount of control you have is amazing.
• Syrion wrote on 2014-03-11 17:45

  Quote from Chihaya;1205518:

  My point was to say that stats is really the meat of raising the damage.

  
  
  say word, stats were the key all along
  
  Im too lazy but all you really need to do is find the fraction of damage contributed by non stats for all endgame skillsets
  
  I don't think puppet is anywhere near the top of stat dependency tho, considering that the skills + unenchanted weapon contribute like 300+ max
  
  range, melee, gunner and fighter probably barely break 200
  
  anyone mathy enough to do a regression?