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Yuuki Asuna wrote on 2014-06-05 00:24
A better question is what are you intending to use these weapons for? If you don't give a damn about enchants, then what are you going to be using your weapons for other than running dailies for AP/leveling?
End-game weapons are only useful for continual character progression but if you're more of a benchmark kind of person, then just use the preforged stuff and deal with people being shitbags when they say "x weapon is trash".
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bacabro wrote on 2014-06-05 00:57
Quote from Yuuki Asuna;1223765:
A better question is what are you intending to use these weapons for? If you don't give a damn about enchants, then what are you going to be using your weapons for other than running dailies for AP/leveling?
where do you use yours other than those?elementals doesn't work on lord so raids i guess?just curious.
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Yuuki Asuna wrote on 2014-06-05 04:01
Quote from bacabro;1223771:
where do you use yours other than those?elementals doesn't work on lord so raids i guess?just curious.
Uhh, that was my point?
Edit: Ah I see what you meant. Yes, I only do raids with stock weapons and the occasional lord nowadays so getting anything elemental would be really pointless for me.
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-06-05 06:17
Quote from Blassreiter;1223746:
Black Stars and Dowra's Golden Guns have lesser value in comparison to the BDK weapons. The aforementioned guns can easily be surpassed in damage by enchanting the regular versions (given that the gun was crafted with a very good max damage roll). Otherwise as others have said if you don't want to gamble with Enchants/Step 6 or even Rank 1 Reforging an item then you can go for the Black Stars/Dowra's Golden Guns but they won't be end game because they're not the highest potential. A max roll crafted gun with Officer's Crocodile plus Step 6 R Upgrade will outclass the BS/DGG. But of course getting a max roll craft and Artisan Officer's Crocodile Step 6 Rank 1 Reforged Dowra SE/Taunes MK3 with fairly high durability is very expensive and if you don't have the effort to make it then settle for something easier like the BS/DGG. The same can be said with BDK weapons. The best sword is arguably the Bhafel Slayer but what are the odds of getting a max roll craft Conqueror Crocodile Step 6 Rank 1 on it?
On another note, someone explicate this:
[Image: http://puu.sh/9foXJ/21671388c6.png]
Dfang is essentially 164 max with Artisan/Enchants in place.
I know Elementals is multiplicative but when you reverse the max damage of the weapons to each side (that is if the 164 DFang gets the elemental) it only reaches around 15k as opposed to 17k from the 220 max of the BDK Sword
I have an explanation for your picture.
Your Dragon Fang has smash 19, which gets you 910% smash. Your Ice 6 sword though? It'll get you up to around 1060% smash because 720% * 1.55 is roughly about 1060%. So let's do the math here. 559 * 9.10 * 3 is about 15k. 625 * 7.2 * 1.55 * 2.5 goes upto 17k. Basically, you're not making a fair comparison because the smash damage reforge is much inferior than the elemental reforge.
If you have the same reforge for the swords, your Dragon Fang would be doing more.
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Zekkii wrote on 2014-06-06 11:23
The joke of R-upgrades is that by the time they actually start to do any real difference from S-upgrades, you no longer need the damage or the damage all goes into overkill. There is nothing wrong with DKB or DKGS; both weapons offer superb damage and piercing to boot, but they will never be as strong as a lance or bhafel hunter/ess combo in the end. This makes both weapons extremely valuable for low-midhigh players for their strength and price, as well as high level players for just their prices. The 'special' guns seem pretty worthless to me though; aside from having preforge r1, its pretty easy to get a gun with higher max or slightly lower max and more critical damage for WOTG or other skills.
So why do people thrash on these weapons?
1. People like to plan ahead, and build themselves for a state somewhere in the future. This leads a lot of people to discuss everything as if it were 'endgame', even when talking about gear of low-midhigh players. A lot of players don't think about early or midgame abilities or stats
2. Over reliance on the 'average damage' calculation (damage averaged as if critical happened exactly 30% of the time);
- ignoring damage lost to overkill via critical hit extra damage
- favouritism of R-upgrades over max damage
- Weapons are considered better as R as soon as they hit the breakeven point and are treated as similarly when they are below the breakeven point but treated harshly in similar scenarios when they are blue or max damage based
- E.G. a user has 300 max and is told to red upgrade their bow because they will eventually have 400 max or more
- E.G. "Look at that loser with an S-bow" or someone trashing their S weapon for an R weapon at 400-500 max despite negligable gain in average damage (0 to 1%, could have invested elsewhere for short-term)
- E.G. a user have 600-800 max and uses an R HLB because at 900 max they will have more DPS than someone with a DKB, even though it may be similar damage or 1% more and they may never reach that much
3. Fail to respect costs or scale gain, "Why would I want a compact when I could buy a Porsche?" or "Whats the point in a r1 DKB when I could get a bhafel hunter and huntress?"
- May be ignoring other costs such as repairs, and benefits of gold saved which could be used to give the weapon a stronger reforge
- Probably one of the few places where people are neglecting short-term thinking for long-term, but I have to assert it that when you get to the long-term there is nothing to do so I would rather call it end-term thinking
4. Ignorance and hearsay
- Many people do not comprehend the finer details of metagame and rely on others to form their opinions for them, often listening to people tiers above them who have much different perspectives
That should cover it. People make fun of beam users constantly now, but are quick to forget that upon their release they were easily the most powerful weapons in the game, beating R-upgraded swords as well as lances. A lot of these points are due to a lot of hardcore players ignoring the needs a lot of casual players, but I have to side with the casual players because devCAT killed any chance of this being a hardcore game a long time ago.
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Friggerton wrote on 2014-06-06 12:11
I just bought a masterpiece bow because I
1 Have wanted one ever since I started commerce, so it's sort of a "personal" status symbol or milestone for me.
2 Had the ducats (obviously)
3 Regardless of what the wiki might say, it can be both enchanted and reforged (finding this out after I bought it)
4 It looks damn sexy, especially in the dark gray with dark purple trim one I found.
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-06-06 13:06
You're all missing the point.
The OP clearly didn't even have the right idea about special upgrades and proceeded to argue that the special versions are always superior than the others, which is clearly false.
To the OP, I advise you gain enough knowledge about the game before you start making these comparisons. You didn't even know how the R upgrades work until someone else had to correct you in this thread.
@Zekkii, I wanna know the reasoning behind why you think "devCAT killed any chance of this being a hardcore game a long time ago". When I see players in our server, I see beginners, lowere leveled players, casual players, fashionogis, try hards, end games, dumb pvpers, etc. I fail to see how the game has failed to be a hard core game when people clearly keep trying to push out their damage limit, unless we have different definition of hardcore.
Aside from that point, I do not think these weapons suck (but I still don't think they're good), but rather more useful in earlier stages of the game and less useful in later stages of the game. Here's the reality. You don't need the bhafel combo to outdamage BDK bow, I already do much higher with my HLB than BDK bow with pretty damn mediocre range. You don't need a bone breaker to outclass BDK sword, even a sieged penetrating lance does that easily. Basically, you don't even need the best weapon in Mabiongi to outclass these weapons. Reason why people crazed over beam swords when they were release is because eveyrone had much lower damage than we do now, that beam swords actually outdamaged other things. We laught at the beam sword users now because their damage is heavily outscaled by 2h and lance users, or even battle sword users, not to mention that it indirectly implies to us that they're lazy enough to not invest in a speacial upgraded weapon. Let's be honest, the beam sword users in Mabinogi tend to fail pretty hard.
Here's another thing. One argument is that by the time your R upgrade surpasses S upgrades by significant margin, you're just gonna one shot things anyways, And they're right. I could easily clear rooms with a BDK bow as I do with my HLB. If I were given a BDK sword, I'll still be able to crit windmill oneshot most of the mobs I do with lance. But here comes the question: do you really want to settle at that damage, or do you want to push yourself even further? This is a game of progression. Many will always try to get themselves stronger, and always push harder for higher damage. With that mentality, let's consider this: would you rather want a weapon with fixed stats, or get a weapon that will scale better with higher and higher damage? This is why people advise others to not get the special weapons; they assume that people will plan long and will try to get themselves to hit higher and higher. I don't consider myself hardcore, but I do consider myself slightly serious, and if I were to have a say what people should get, I'd put the special weapons away.
As for me, I do not think these versions are worth it unless you can get the nice reforges. I consider myself pretty mediocre, and I'm way past the threshold of HLB vs BDK bow. From my experiences, I can tell others that it really wasn't hard to reach that damage, but that's just me I guess.
And I think I can speak for many of the Mabination users here. Large majority of us do want to see our character grow, and test the limits. There's a reason why we have a separate thread for character stats, accomplishments, etc.
Basically get whatever the hell you want. If you're going to be a casual player and be happy with this, go ahead. If you're a more serious player, then I'd advise against you investing into the special weapons, but it's still personal choice.
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tauntbreaker wrote on 2014-06-06 21:57
The main reason that upgraded weapons are better is because of R-upgrades. R upgrades increase damage multiplicatively (although only when you critical). This is especialyl noticeable, when using way of the gun. The more max damage u have (the more end game u are) the more these upgraded weapons will outdamage special weapons such as BDK and black star and others.
However, I think its perfectly fine to use those special weapons, they are cheap and come with r1 and should suit you fine for a long long time. one you are close to end game ( max all stat skills and best enchants for other equipments) you should consider making buying or upgrading your own weapons. Theres really nothing with those special weapons, and im pretty sure 90%-95% of the mabinogi players are better of using these special weapons.
A fully upgraded with 6r and decent rank 1 reforges can easily cost 15m+ easily (its actually probably way more, depending on your luck with enchants, special upgrades and reforges. in my case anyways)
Whereas a special weapon will cost ~3m. mabe another 2-5mil depending reforging. No need to enchant or upgrade, already comes with high damage.
Is the extra ~5-10% damage from r-upgrades and enchants really worth the 10-20mil price upgrade? Of course it is, especially if your end game. But for most players, no its not worth the upgrade, the special weapons version will do fine.
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BecomeMeguca wrote on 2014-06-06 22:32
Quote from Space Pirate Nithiel;1223640:
Like I said though, you needed enchants to get them that strong. Without them it's just 109, and 109 definitely IS < 156. So if someone doesn't want to/can't afford to mess with enchants, risking blowing up their weapon if they fail, then the Black Star would be better.
Untamed and violent for those taunes are rank A enchants. Not hard to find nor high risk. I believe it is 82% sucess rate with an elite powder on thursdays.
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Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2014-06-07 03:29
Quote from tauntbreaker;1224078:
A fully upgraded with 6r and decent rank 1 reforges can easily cost 15m+ easily (its actually probably way more, depending on your luck with enchants, special upgrades and reforges. in my case anyways)
Whereas a special weapon will cost ~3m. mabe another 2-5mil depending reforging. No need to enchant or upgrade, already comes with high damage.
Is the extra ~5-10% damage from r-upgrades and enchants really worth the 10-20mil price upgrade? Of course it is, especially if your end game. But for most players, no its not worth the upgrade, the special weapons version will do fine.
And this is why I'm going to stick with my 3m weapons that are already strong without upgrades. I -MIGHT- be able to afford a single weapon like you're describing if I sold every single item I own and then sold my body for money to make up the last 4-5m.
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jimpatrick wrote on 2014-06-07 03:42
Quote from Zekkii;1224029:
The joke of R-upgrades is that by the time they actually start to do any real difference from S-upgrades, you no longer need the damage or the damage all goes into overkill. There is nothing wrong with DKB or DKGS; both weapons offer superb damage and piercing to boot, but they will never be as strong as a lance or bhafel hunter/ess combo in the end. This makes both weapons extremely valuable for low-midhigh players for their strength and price, as well as high level players for just their prices. The 'special' guns seem pretty worthless to me though; aside from having preforge r1, its pretty easy to get a gun with higher max or slightly lower max and more critical damage for WOTG or other skills.
So why do people thrash on these weapons?
1. People like to plan ahead, and build themselves for a state somewhere in the future. This leads a lot of people to discuss everything as if it were 'endgame', even when talking about gear of low-midhigh players. A lot of players don't think about early or midgame abilities or stats
2. Over reliance on the 'average damage' calculation (damage averaged as if critical happened exactly 30% of the time);
- ignoring damage lost to overkill via critical hit extra damage
- favouritism of R-upgrades over max damage
- Weapons are considered better as R as soon as they hit the breakeven point and are treated as similarly when they are below the breakeven point but treated harshly in similar scenarios when they are blue or max damage based
- E.G. a user has 300 max and is told to red upgrade their bow because they will eventually have 400 max or more
- E.G. "Look at that loser with an S-bow" or someone trashing their S weapon for an R weapon at 400-500 max despite negligable gain in average damage (0 to 1%, could have invested elsewhere for short-term)
- E.G. a user have 600-800 max and uses an R HLB because at 900 max they will have more DPS than someone with a DKB, even though it may be similar damage or 1% more and they may never reach that much
3. Fail to respect costs or scale gain, "Why would I want a compact when I could buy a Porsche?" or "Whats the point in a r1 DKB when I could get a bhafel hunter and huntress?"
- May be ignoring other costs such as repairs, and benefits of gold saved which could be used to give the weapon a stronger reforge
- Probably one of the few places where people are neglecting short-term thinking for long-term, but I have to assert it that when you get to the long-term there is nothing to do so I would rather call it end-term thinking
4. Ignorance and hearsay
- Many people do not comprehend the finer details of metagame and rely on others to form their opinions for them, often listening to people tiers above them who have much different perspectives
That should cover it. People make fun of beam users constantly now, but are quick to forget that upon their release they were easily the most powerful weapons in the game, beating R-upgraded swords as well as lances. A lot of these points are due to a lot of hardcore players ignoring the needs a lot of casual players, but I have to side with the casual players because devCAT killed any chance of this being a hardcore game a long time ago.
tihs.very well said,exactly what i wanted to point out but stubborn ppl are stubborn.
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-06-07 06:01
Another point that I want to bring out is that it doesn't necessarily cost more money to get the reforged special upgraded weapons than using special weapons.
Good example is bow pricing in Alexina. Currently, you can buy an elemental 6 r5-6 HLB for 15 mil, and with BDK bow with elemental 6 goes for about the same price.
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Zekkii wrote on 2014-06-07 22:58
Well like most MMORPGs, it is highly competitive comparatively. No matter how many times you buff a player and no matter how strong players get, players will want to be the strongest of those players. In terms of any sort of PvE however, it is an exercise in futility. I really find the arms race to lose value when it mostly relies on the value of reforges and buying power, or perhaps grinding power, but that is just me.
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Rydian wrote on 2014-06-08 04:36
Quote from wilson10000;1223675:
I believe the protection decrease just affects the protection damage decrease, not the critical rate part of it.
So lance users still need high crit to be able to smash high prot monsters.
Can anybody with high piercing lances test this out? I'm curious now.
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-06-08 12:40
Quote from Rydian;1224356:
Can anybody with high piercing lances test this out? I'm curious now.
This has been known for long time.
With my 9 piercing lance, I can confirm that is the case.