Discuss: Cichol = Macha? (Spoilers)

• Kueh wrote on 2010-08-27 23:39
  Do not read if you are concerned with story and are not up to date with the current generation.
  
  Something may have happened to her that made her lose a lot of her power, as well as her form and beauty. If it was at the hands of a human, it would explain her grudge.
  
  It makes sense because Cichol intended to use a human sacrifice to summon Macha. Maybe instead of resurrecting Macha, the ritual was only meant to restore Macha's lost power. The probability is high that Lugh, and his daughter, are descendants of the one who originally took Macha's powers.
  
  It would stand to reason that the first human absorbed some of the powers, and those powers were transferred to his or her first child, and that continued down his or her pedigree to both Lugh and Triona. This would explain both why Lugh was able to be the hero that he was, being a vessel for the power of the goddess, and why he became Morgant. After losing his power from Macha to Triona, he was no longer the Hero of Light, and fell into disfavor, thus leading him to spurn the humans for their fickle shallowness. This would also explain why Triona was needed as the sacrifice for the Lia Fall.
  
  My theory is further supported in G11 when Cichol says to Morrighan and Neamhain that he wonders how long it had been since the three of them were together in one place. Morrighan and Neamhain are part of a trinity that has not been seen since ages past, with Macha being the final member.
• Zid wrote on 2010-08-28 00:26
  Lugh's a Milletian, he doesn't belong in the world of Mabinogi as much as player Milletians.
  
  If we use your theory, technically Elatha (who also is an offspring of Lugh and the Goddess of Light) is a better vessel than Triona, seeing how he had Demigod powers.
  
  Lugh also became Morgant (Dark Knight is a reasonable conclusion) because he was swayed by the Fomor's ideals, and didn't like human greed and ignorance (represented by Paladins, who he once was before).
  
  I think Cichol was satirizing how the 3 goddesses are against each other and because of that, don't like to stand around each other. I mean, Morrighan was adamant in wanting to stop Macha and Neamhain. Even though I think they're all sisters and were created to obey Atom, and to protect living beings. But it looks like each went their separate ways with their own motives.
  
  Don't know where Triona's pre-existing condition of being Macha's vessel comes from though. Also, I'm inclined to believe Cromm Cruaich stored Macha's power after she committed suicide, as a safe measure (He did something similar that was explained in G11S2).
• Kueh wrote on 2010-08-28 01:02

  Lugh's a Milletian, he doesn't belong in the world of Mabinogi as much as player Milletians.

  
  I was not aware Lugh was a Milletian. If he were a Milletian, he would have had to be brought through the soul stream to Erinn.
  
  

  If we use your theory, technically Elatha (who also is an offspring of Lugh and the Goddess of Light) is a better vessel than Triona, seeing how he had Demigod powers.

  
  If we use my theory, Elatha could very well have absorbed his mother's power whilst in her womb in a manner similar to how the Lugh line attained their power. In my theory, the offspring of the holder of power becomes an empty vessel, like a vacuum. After a certain time (most probably after the holder activates the power while the offspring is a young adult) the power sparks like lightning down the path of least resistance into the new vessel. If Elatha already had the same type of power within him, he would never have drawn it from his father, meaning Triona would inherit it.
  
  

  Lugh also became Morgant (Dark Knight is a reasonable conclusion) because he was swayed by the Fomor's ideals, and didn't like human greed and ignorance (represented by Paladins, who he once was before).

  
  What better time for Lugh, the Hero of Light, to be swayed by Fomor ideals and to learn distaste for human greed and ignorance than after losing his favor and power? My theory holds water tight in this respect. Lugh lost his power to Triona and was hurled into disfavor among the noble houses who sought to use him. They undoubtedly cast him aside like a used rag. With all the delusions of grandeur no longer clouding his sight, and after being treated so unfairly, it's easy to see why he would have rejected humans. Especially if Cichol approached him as a savior to offer him stability in a time where chaos ruled his life.
  
  

  I think Cichol was satirizing how the 3 goddesses are against each other and because of that, don't like to stand around each other. I mean, Morrighan was adamant in wanting to stop Macha and Neamhain. Even though I think they're all sisters and were created to obey Atom, and to protect living beings. But it looks like each went their separate ways with their own motives.

  
  The 3 aren't against each other. Neamhain and Cichol were conspirating. Besides, that comment only proves my point. If the three were against each other and avoid each other, then it would explain why the three, Morrighan, Neamhain, and Macha (being Cichol), have not gathered for a long time. If they each had their own motives and went seperate ways, it would stand that they wouldn't meet for a long time. Thus, Chichol, as Macha and having not seen either of her sisters in many hundreds of years, absentmindedly commented on it.
  
  

  Don't know where Triona's pre-existing condition of being Macha's vessel comes from though. Also, I'm inclined to believe Cromm Cruaich stored Macha's power after she committed suicide, as a safe measure (He did something similar that was explained in G11S2).

  
  I was under the impression that Cromm Cruaich dies in G8 at the hands of Crumena, with your help.
  
  Also, who committed suicide? Not Triona. Triona is seen at the end of G3, still alive with Morgant.
• Arsik wrote on 2010-08-28 01:24

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138865:

  I was not aware Lugh was a Milletian. If he were a Milletian, he would have had to be brought through the soul stream to Erinn.
  
  
  If we use my theory, Elatha could very well have absorbed his mother's power whilst in her womb in a manner similar to how the Lugh line attained their power. In my theory, the offspring of the holder of power becomes an empty vessel, like a vacuum. After a certain time (most probably after the holder activates the power while the offspring is a young adult) the power sparks like lightning down the path of least resistance into the new vessel. If Elatha already had the same type of power within him, he would never have drawn it from his father, meaning Triona would inherit it.
  
  
  What better time for Lugh, the Hero of Light, to be swayed by Fomor ideals and to learn distaste for human greed and ignorance than after losing his favor and power? My theory holds water tight in this respect. Lugh lost his power to Triona and was hurled into disfavor among the noble houses who sought to use him. They undoubtedly cast him aside like a used rag. With all the delusions of grandeur no longer clouding his sight, and after being treated so unfairly, it's easy to see why he would have rejected humans. Especially if Cichol approached him as a savior to offer him stability in a time where chaos ruled his life.
  
  
  The 3 aren't against each other. Neamhain and Cichol were conspirating. Besides, that comment only proves my point. If there three were against each other and avoid each other, then it would explain why the three, Morrighan, Neamhain, and Macha (being Cichol), have not gathered for a long time. If they each had their own motives and went seperate ways, it would stand that they wouldn't meet for a long time. Thus, Chichol, as Macha and having not seen either of her sisters in many hundreds of years, absentmindedly commented on it.
  
  
  Also, I was under the impression that Cromm Cruaich dies in G8 at the hands of Crumena, with your help.
  
  Also, who committed suicide? Not Triona. Triona is seen at the end of G3, still alive with Morgant.

  
  
  According to the game, after Morrighan sacrificed herself to stop the Fomors, Lugh took a group of humans and led them to Fiodh Forest, where he made a bargain with the Queen of the Imps that the humans can stay there and cultivate the land so long as they don't cut down the mother tree. When war broke out again, Lugh left, and won the war for the Humans, and became king, so he couldn't go back to the Fiodh settlement. With Lugh out of the picture, the humans in Fiodh tried cutting down the mother tree, pissing off the spirits in the forest, causing the forest to turn into what it is as we know it. When Lugh heard of this, he got pissed at the humans, gave up his crown, and left, never to be seen again. It's probably here when he went back to Fiodh, and became the Dark Lord, Morgant.
  
  So while he may have had a relationship with Neamhain at one time, since we know that Elatha is his son, it's probably safe to say that Triona is the daughter of Lugh and Siora, the Imp Queen. And also going with the same source I got this from, it said that nobody knew where Lugh came from, so they assumed the Goddess of War (Morrighan) brought Lugh from the heavens (Soulstream) to save the humans from the Fomors. Since we learned from G11 that we (Milletians) are being used by Morrighan to get rid of the Fomors, just like how Cichol and his Fomorian army was used to get rid of the Partholons. Even though Lugh became the number two of the Fomorians, it's probably safe to say that Lugh is the Milletian version of Cichol, the leader of Morrighan's new army against her old favorite race.
  
  It's possible that Lugh may have descended from the guy that broke Macha's heart, and received some of her power, and in turn passed it on to Triona. But chances are, Triona being the reincarnation of Macha is probably in the same vein as Jean Grey in X-Men being the reincarnation of The Phoenix, where it just happens when times of great whatever is happening. Cichol somehow knew about Triona being the reincarnation of Macha, so tried using her as a way to defend his people from the humans, using her powers of destruction and using her hatred against that one man on the humans. So, there are some flaws with your theory.
  
  Here's my source, in case you're wondering.
  
  The Forgotten Legend of Fiodh Forest - Mabinogi World Wiki
• Zid wrote on 2010-08-28 01:42

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138865:

  If we use my theory, Elatha could very well have absorbed his mother's power whilst in her womb in a manner similar to how the Lugh line attained their power. In my theory, the offspring of the holder of power becomes an empty vessel, like a vacuum. After a certain time (most probably after the holder activates the power while the offspring is a young adult) the power sparks like lightning down the path of least resistance into the new vessel. If Elatha already had the same type of power within him, he would never have drawn it from his father, meaning Triona would inherit it.

  
  
  This is assuming IF Lugh is a descendant of somebody who absorbed Macha's powers, which I highly doubt if he's a Milletian (They're said to come from other worlds "from the stars"). Meaning, I don't believe he came from a descendant of a Tuatha de Danann who absorbed a goddess's powers, if that's even possible. Thus I don't believe he inherited Macha's powers.
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138865:

  What better time for Lugh, the Hero of Light, to be swayed by Fomor ideals and to learn distaste for human greed and ignorance than after losing his favor and power? My theory holds water tight in this respect. Lugh lost his power to Triona and was hurled into disfavor among the noble houses who sought to use him. They undoubtedly cast him aside like a used rag. With all the delusions of grandeur no longer clouding his sight, and after being treated so unfairly, it's easy to see why he would have rejected humans. Especially if Cichol approached him as a savior to offer him stability in a time where chaos ruled his life.

  
  
  If Lugh ever fell from glory, or even betrayed. Last I heard from G2, Lugh the Knight of Light disappeared after ruling for a while because of his victorious deeds in the 2nd Battle of Mag Tuired. And everybody (including a published book, a statue of him in Taillteann, a portrait of him in Tara Rath Castle) still consider Lugh a hero, in very high-regards. Even among nobles (else why would he be honored with a portrait of his Champion self in the ruling king's castle?) consider him a hero.
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138865:

  The 3 aren't against each other. Neamhain and Cichol were conspirating. Besides, that comment only proves my point. If the three were against each other and avoid each other, then it would explain why the three, Morrighan, Neamhain, and Macha (being Cichol), have not gathered for a long time. If they each had their own motives and went seperate ways, it would stand that they wouldn't meet for a long time. Thus, Chichol, as Macha and having not seen either of her sisters in many hundreds of years, absentmindedly commented on it.

  
  
  You misunderstood me. I mentioned the 3 goddesses that, officially, are related to each other by tier and sisterhood. Morrighan and a few NPC lore say this, there are 3 goddess, bonded together with the aforementioned qualities. 2 of them are Morrighan and Macha, G3 says. Only means sense Neamhain is the 3rd one after you piece together some qualities.
  
  Because of this, it's valid to say the 3 goddesses aren't on good terms with each other, thus having one branch of the story leading to Neamhain to collaborate with Cichol in G10.
  
  Also, Cichol can still comment on the 3 of the goddesses not meeting each other. If I recall correctly, in G10, he just said "The 3 of us are here after so long". You might be led to draw a conclusion that maybe Cichol is Macha here, but you can also be led that it's just because there are only 3 active deities during the time (Morrighan, Cichol, and Neamhain). If I chose the latter (which I am), I would say "the 3" refers to "the 3 active deities at the time". Because Macha's out of the picture and Nuadha hasn't returned yet.
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138865:

  I was under the impression that Cromm Cruaich dies in G8 at the hands of Crumena, with your help.

  
  
  I'm stating that, before G8 and G3, it's possible the power of Macha was "swallowed" by Cromm Cruaich before the Mag Tuired wars. Just like he swallowed Claimh Solas from Nuadha during the wars. After that, Cichol tries to awaken the other source of Macha's power within Triona via Lia Fail, with the assistance of Cromm Cruiach as it was stated near the end of G3 that Macha's power was able to summon Cromm Cruiach. But that failed, so Cichol had a backup plan with Ruairi's fate of being sacrificed to Cromm Cruaich as part of his father's contract. That's G3, and then G8, so forth.
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138865:

  Also, who committed suicide? Not Triona. Triona is seen at the end of G3, still alive with Morgant.

  
  
  Macha committed suicide. A backstory of G3 explained Macha's life as a goddess and how she fell in love with a male Human, a mere mortal. She sacrificed part of her deity status and immortality to be with him.
  
  However, the man eventually found another woman, a mortal Human too, and ran away with her. Heartbroken, Macha execrated the fragile nature of Human feelings and cursed the Human race before committing suicide by drowning in the lake Emain Macha was built upon.
  
  That's also why Cichol was referring to Macha's summoning as a resurrection.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-08-28 01:55
  That certainly punches a few holes in my theory (I really should get to reading all of the in-game books), but I counter thusly.
  
  First off, I scrutinize the credibility of the author, who was obviously very old, and who learned his information from someone who was very old. Either or both of them could have misremembered, filling blank spots with fancy romantics that would make for a good story.
  

  Quote from Fleelu:

  The storyteller seemed fairly aged, old enough to have seen and witnessed the tragedy of the Mag Tuireadh wars.
  
  I am too old in age now to attempt opening the forest doors.

  
  
  Secondly, there is no conclusive evidence that it was actually humans who cut the tree. Recall that the fomors learned how to use the statues of Morrighan to navigate between dungeons secretly. This is after Morrighan sacrificed herself to save the humans, so there are statues in every dungeon, and possibly in places no human has ever set foot. Fomors pretending to be human could have easily cut the tree down to frame the humans. But that's unimportant. What matters is that Lugh thought it was humans, whether it was true or not. I only mean to say that Macha could easily have plotted that event in order to stain Lugh's view of humanity. In the end, whether it was that Lugh was scorned by nobles or that he lost faith because of the tree, Macha inevitably used it to her ends in order to get her hands on the power that she needed to complete herself. Only, by now, Lugh no longer had them. If we assume at least some parts of the story are correct, by now Siora was pregnant with Triona.
  
  The fact that her mother was an imp (who had high spiritual powers of her own) could have accelerated the take-over of power. Or it could have left Lugh when he gave it up in the forest. Either way, by the time she found Lugh, Macha found out that her power had already migrated to another body
  
  Third, the book never says that Lugh was summoned from the soul stream. In fact, Lugh himself claims to be of normal birth.
  

  Quote from Fleelu:

  Only then, the Knight told people that, although his skills might be exceptional, he was just another common man just like everyone else.

  
  Although his being a Milletian doesn't necessarily interfere with my theory.
  
  

  Quote from Arsik:

  Cichol somehow knew about Triona being the reincarnation of Macha

  
  Because Cichol is the broken shell of Macha herself perhaps?
  
  
  Also, no one has yet given any evidence against my claims. Only claims against my evidence.
• Arsik wrote on 2010-08-28 02:10

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138916:

  Because Cichol is the broken shell of Macha herself perhaps?
  
  
  Also, no one has yet given any evidence against my claims. Only claims against my evidence.

  
  
  How about as I said, in G11, we learn that Morrighan used Cichol and his Fomorians to wipe out the Partholons. After the Partholons were gone, Cichol most likely became a Demi-god like how we (the players) are, which explains the white wings instead of the black wings that the full Gods and Goddesses have. Because of this, Cichol is nothing more than a Fomorian in the end.
  
  *SPOILERS AHEAD*
  
  But in reality, we have to look at it this way. Mabi's story is just completely full of holes. I mean, I can play a Human character, do G9, G10, and G11 up to the point where Cichol gets killed. Then do G1 and G2, where Cichol is alive again (but since we didn't do G12, Cichol is dead, our first continuity error). After getting Paladin, I finish G8, where I see Cromm getting killed, but also Adniel being born (which we shouldn't have seen, since G9 requires us to summon Adniel, meaning that he's already been born) and Ruairi saying that we're okay in his books. After G8, we go back to G3, where Ruairi is pissed at us again, and Cromm comes back from the dead to bring Ruairi back to Iria, even though Ruairi left Iria to go back to Uladh. So if you look at it this way, no matter what anyone says, they're most likely wrong on some level.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-08-28 02:26

  Quote from Zid;138903:

  This is assuming IF Lugh is a descendant of somebody who absorbed Macha's powers, which I highly doubt if he's a Milletian (They're said to come from other worlds "from the stars"). Meaning, I don't believe he came from a descendant of a Tuatha de Danann who absorbed a goddess's powers, if that's even possible. Thus I don't believe he inherited Macha's powers.

  
  If Lugh is a milletian, then he is undoubtedly very old, being from a generation of milletians other than our own. In fact, he might have been the very one that Macha fell in love with.
  
  
  
  

  Quote from Zid;138903:

  If Lugh ever fell from glory, or even betrayed. Last I heard from G2, Lugh the Knight of Light disappeared after ruling for a while because of his victorious deeds in the 2nd Battle of Mag Tuired. And everybody (including a published book, a statue of him in Taillteann, a portrait of him in Tara Rath Castle) still consider Lugh a hero, in very high-regards. Even among nobles (else why would he be honored with a portrait of his Champion self in the ruling king's castle?) consider him a hero.

  
  Please recall that the spurned and rejected Ruairi, prince to the statehood of Emain Macha, is still considered a hero for having gave his life to save others.

  Quote from Zensunni saying:

  History and memory are two sides of the same coin, yet history tends to turn to praise and recall all the glories and splendors, while memory usually holds thoughts of past hardships and despair.
  

  
  
  

  Quote from Zid;138903:

  You misunderstood me. I mentioned the 3 goddesses that, officially, are related to each other by tier and sisterhood. Morrighan and a few NPC lore say this, there are 3 goddess, bonded together with the aforementioned qualities. 2 of them are Morrighan and Macha, G3 says. Only means sense Neamhain is the 3rd one after you piece together some qualities.

  
  G3 actually calls all three, including Neamhain, by name.
  

  Because of this, it's valid to say the 3 goddesses aren't on good terms with each other, thus having one branch of the story leading to Neamhain to collaborate with Cichol in G10.

  
  Because of this, it's valid to say that the three sisters have fond memories of each other, thus making Neamhain unsuspecting of Macha, her sister. It's also valid to say that they gathered like that during the Mag Tuireadh wars.
  
  

  Quote from Zid;138903:

  I'm stating that, before G8 and G3, it's possible the power of Macha was "swallowed" by Cromm Cruaich before the Mag Tuired wars. Just like he swallowed Claimh Solas from Nuadha during the wars.

  
  That's actually impossible. He may have absorbed it somehow, but not swallow it like he did Claimh Solas. This is impossible for two reasons. First, it was Glas Ghaibleann who swallowed Claimh Solas. Second, Claimh Solas was an actual tangible physical weapon, not a divine power.
  
  
  

  Quote from Zid;138903:

  Macha committed suicide. A backstory of G3 explained Macha's life as a goddess and how she fell in love with a male Human, a mere mortal. She sacrificed part of her deity status and immortality to be with him.
  
  However, the man eventually found another woman, a mortal Human too, and ran away with her. Heartbroken, Macha execrated the fragile nature of Human feelings and cursed the Human race before committing suicide by drowning in the lake Emain Macha was built upon.
  
  That's also why Cichol was referring to Macha's summoning as a resurrection.

  
  
  That actually poses a very interesting possibility. Imagine Macha giving her godliness to the man she loved. If that's true, then he was the start of the Lugh bloodline. The story goes on to elaborate that Macha had trouble becoming human. This could be interpreted to mean that her transformation was incomplete, and that would mean she was unable to die, so she simply let herself fall into the lake to be forgotten.
  

  Quote from From Emain Macha Lore:

  But it is not an easy feat to leave her divine place as a goddess, to become a mere mortal. And it was even more so for Macha

  
  
  

  Quote from Zid;138903:

  but you can also be led that it's just because there are only 3 active deities during the time.

  
  That is exactly what I concluded. Our only disparity is which three. And this conclusion boasts no claim to strengthen your argument, because there is no proof that Macha is indeed out of the picture. My argument, however, is another story. If our conclusion that there are only three active deities is correct, then we must take a look at all the deities who have been active as of late.
  Naming Lymilark as a Passive deity leaves us with this list:
  -Morrighan
  -Cichol
  -Macha
  -Irinid
  -Neamhain
  
  We know from G10 that Irinid and Neamhain are the same, much in the way Macha and Cichol are. Counting both Irinid and Neamhain as one, that makes 4 remaining, so two of the remaining have to be the same person, namely, Macha and Cichol. Though I observe curiously that Morrighan is the only one without a second identity. Maybe she has one that we don't yet know of?
  
  

  Quote from Arsik;138922:

  So if you look at it this way, no matter what anyone says, they're most likely wrong on some level.

  
  
  So you'll consider it as a distinct possibility that Cichol might be Macha after all?
• Zid wrote on 2010-08-28 03:42

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138933:

  Please recall that the spurned and rejected Ruairi, prince to the statehood of Emain Macha, is still considered a hero for having gave his life to save others.

  
  
  I do recall it. I also know for a fact he's not like Lugh and thus you cannot say that the situation that fell on Ruairi could be similar to Lugh. There's no evidence of the nobles actually betraying and using Ruairi like Lugh did. There IS evidence that his father did, and that Ersa tried to usurp throne from Ruairi's brother, but that's not why the main reason why Ruairi's bitter. It was about Morrighan and his ordeals of suffering because of his brother's death. All of which he was lied to, which made him bitter and turned to being a Dark Knight. He possibly also harbors resentment to his father for signing away his life, but that, in no means, suggest that the nobles (or even a majority of them) turned against Ruairi. Which could be the same fate for Lugh. What evidence says is that he served the Ailech Kingdom as the Knight of Light and a ruler, then just left. The ambiguity of why he left and turned into Morgant has no supporting evidence of whatever claim is made in this thread.
  
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138933:

  That's actually impossible. He may have absorbed it somehow, but not swallow it like he did Claimh Solas. This is impossible for two reasons. First, it was Glas Ghaibleann who swallowed Claimh Solas. Second, Claimh Solas was an actual tangible physical weapon, not a divine power.

  
  
  I'm pretty sure it was Cromm Cruaich that swallowed Claimh Solas, whatever form it was in. At least, that's what I remembered from the end of G11S2. As far as I know, Glas Ghaibleann was just another lackey of destruction during the Mag Tuired wars. Also, didn't take much Alchemy to transmute another Glas. Whereas, it took a whole lot of manpower to transmute another Claimh Solas. So how would it make sense a weaker, less-complex creature be able to contain a stronger one? Bear in mind, the Cromm Cruaich you fought in G3 is just a very weak statue of his original self.
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138933:

  That actually poses a very interesting possibility. Imagine Macha giving her godliness to the man she loved. If that's true, then he was the start of the Lugh bloodline. The story goes on to elaborate that Macha had trouble becoming human. This could be interpreted to mean that her transformation was incomplete, and that would mean she was unable to die, so she simply let herself fall into the lake to be forgotten.

  
  
  There was no mention of Macha giving her divinity away to a mortal. She simply just gave up her powers to be with the man. Also, Cichol (before G11) has a hatred for Humans, so I very much doubt he is Macha if it meant falling in love with one. Also no evidence she had problems becoming mortal either.
  
  And I still think Lugh came from another world, not the Mabinogi one. Besides, if he's a Milletian, he can simply rebirth and never grow old.
  
  

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;138933:

  That is exactly what I concluded. Our only disparity is which three. And this conclusion boasts no claim to strengthen your argument, because there is no proof that Macha is indeed out of the picture. My argument, however, is another story. If our conclusion that there are only three active deities is correct, then we must take a look at all the deities who have been active as of late.
  Naming Lymilark as a Passive deity leaves us with this list:
  -Morrighan
  -Cichol
  -Macha
  -Irinid
  -Neamhain
  
  We know from G10 that Irinid and Neamhain are the same, much in the way Macha and Cichol are. Counting both Irinid and Neamhain as one, that makes 4 remaining, so two of the remaining have to be the same person, namely, Macha and Cichol. Though I observe curiously that Morrighan is the only one without a second identity. Maybe she has one that we don't yet know of?

  
  
  If what you say is correct, it's actually MORE of a possibility that Morrighan and Cichol are the same person rather than Macha and Cichol, just from the fact you compared Neamhain and Irinid as the same person, but just different names.
  
  Morrighan is Morrighan (Vindictus confirms this). Neamhain and Irinid are just different names for the same person. Cichol is the God of Darkness and Fomors, and actually has a distinct possibility of another name (speculated to be "Elchulus" in Vindictus). Macha is just that, Macha.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-08-28 04:03

  Quote from Zid;138996:

  I do recall it. I also know for a fact he's not like Lugh and thus you cannot say that the situation that fell on Ruairi could be similar to Lugh.

  
  I can say that it is similar. Mores too has a similar fate. All three of them are remembered as heros, even though their current situations are far from that memory.
  
  

  The ambiguity of why he left and turned into Morgant has no supporting evidence of whatever claim is made in this thread.

  
  

  The ambiguity has no supporting evidence

  
  I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, but the ambiguity itself is my claim. I'm merely saying that, without any real documentation of the transition of Lugh to Morgant, there is a plethora of possibilities. One such is that he was caught in a trap set by Macha to re-obtain her power.
  
  I'd also like to point out that the evidence taken from stories should not be treated with black-or-white certainty. As with any tale, tellers spice up boring parts and dress the entire story, so any one piece of evidence may also be something the teller imagined to just make the story more exciting.
  
  

  Quote from Zid;138996:

  I'm pretty sure it was Cromm Cruaich that swallowed Claimh Solas, whatever form it was in.

  
  
  I haven't finished G11 yet, so I'm a little uninformed in this matter. However, it is as you said. A less powerful being couldn't contain a more powerful one. Thus Cromm Cruaich could have swallowed a spirit weapon, being a dragon, but he couldn't hope to contain the powers of a goddess of war.
  

  
  There was no mention of Macha giving her divinity away to a mortal.

  
  There was also no mention that she didn't. The entire operation is very vague, but it could have been similar to how Eowyn gave up her immortality to Aragorn, where it was actually given to him.
  

  Also, Cichol (before G11) has a hatred for Humans, so I very much doubt he is Macha if it meant falling in love with one. Also no evidence she had problems becoming mortal either.

  
  First, the fact that Cichol hates humans is supportive that Cichol is Macha. Macha felt deeply scorned and cursed humanity. Second, there is evidence that she had problems, I quoted from the book you assemble in G3. The story actually goes on to say that Macha still feels bitter about what happened.
  

  However, it seems that her soul has yet to redeem herself from her sorrows.

  
  
  

  And I still think Lugh came from another world, not the Mabinogi one. Besides, if he's a Milletian, he can simply rebirth and never grow old.

  
  If Lugh is a Milletian, he is different from us. Milletians from other worlds gain their power from the soul stream. They were guided to Errin by Nao. Lugh didn't use the soul stream, so there's nothing saying he didn't have Tuatha or even Milletian parents. After all, he is the only Milletian on record to bear child, our rules probably don't apply to him. He could easily be both a milletian and a descendant from the one who Macha fell in love with. In fact, that might be the reason he's a milletian, since it's not because of the soul stream.
  
  
  

  Morrighan is Morrighan (Vindictus confirms this). Neamhain and Irinid are just different names for the same person. Cichol is the God of Darkness and Fomors, and actually has a distinct possibility of another name (speculated to be "Elchulus" in Vindictus). Macha is just that, Macha.

  
  There are a lot of words here, but not much has been said. Rather, it's just my list with vague descriptions after it. This is just a bout of semantics. Call Cichol the God of Darkness and Fomors, and say that Macha is just Macha, and they could still be the same person, those things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, that there's very heart of this entire argument. It's just a matter of the person that goes by the name Macha, that might also be the person named Cichol. Call her a third or fourth name if you wish. She will remain the same individual.
• Athde wrote on 2010-08-28 04:10
  Even though im not too up to date with the Mabinogi storyline i do have some input.
  If my sources are correct Cichol was basically the Leader of the formorii, the 1st race to settle in "Ireland" which of course is Mabinogi world.
  Then it was Nuadha, the king of, i believe Pathalons, whom im pretty sure were the humans, came in and basically took control of the place away from the Formorii. This would explain Cichols hate for the Humans. Again this is just speculation based on the Celtic mythology and not Mabinogis... But who knows, it might be?
• Fracture wrote on 2010-08-28 04:49

  Quote from Athde;139015:

  Even though im not too up to date with the Mabinogi storyline i do have some input.
  If my sources are correct Cichol was basically the Leader of the formorii, the 1st race to settle in "Ireland" which of course is Mabinogi world.
  Then it was Nuadha, the king of, i believe Pathalons, whom im pretty sure were the humans, came in and basically took control of the place away from the Formorii. This would explain Cichols hate for the Humans. Again this is just speculation based on the Celtic mythology and not Mabinogis... But who knows, it might be?

  
  
  Well the Fomorii were, as near as I can tell, the guardians of Tir Na Nogg. Why they attacked Erinn, I'm not exactly sure, nor why they attacked the world in which the Tuatha were before Erinn, but the fact that the Tuatha, while unworthy, were brought to Tir Na Nogg is a major part of the war, and Cichol's hatred. I presume that the previous god of the Fomors, mentioned once or twice by Morrighan, was somewhat lax in defending the Paradise, hence why he fell and Cichol succeeded him.
  
  As far as I can tell, the Parthlon were a human (or mostly human) race that had long ago earned their place in the Paradise, but were destroyed by the gods when deemed to have become so powerful as to threaten them. At that point, the Fomor civilization had the run of the world. Afterwards, after one of the Great Wars, she sealed the fomorii within Erinn and the dungeons, banishing them from the world that was rightfully their own.
  
  By divine intervention, the Partholons fell from power, the Fomorii fell from power, and now the Tuatha have fallen from power as they are greatly exceeded by the milletians. Who honestly thinks Morrighan's going to let us carry on getting stronger?
• Xemnas wrote on 2010-08-28 05:38

  Quote from Fracture;139023:

  Who honestly thinks Morrighan's going to let us carry on getting stronger?

  
  
  What's she going to do? Walk in circles and attempt to blow us and the soul stream up?
  
  [SIZE="1"]*cough*g10 final*cough*[/SIZE]
• Phanterz wrote on 2010-08-28 14:33

  Quote from Xemnas;139035:

  What's she going to do? Walk in circles and attempt to blow us and the soul stream up?
  
  [SIZE="1"]*cough*g10 final*cough*[/SIZE]

  
  
  She abuses our power to get revenge on Nuadha. :V
• Athde wrote on 2010-08-28 14:37
  Nuadha looks bad-ass, just saying... BTW how... why... What do we want to kill Nuadha for again??
  
  P.S. anybody else think theyd rather do whatsome of the other goddesses say rather than do what psycho Morrighan says? So what if we get epic armor, Neamhain and Cichol's powers? Its not like we're gonna kill her or anything... ;D