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December wrote on 2014-07-20 04:21
[SIZE="5"][B]Q: At what point do Red Upgrades surpass Blue Upgrades for two-handed weapons?[/SIZE][/B]
[SPOILER="A:"]
[SIZE="6"][B]A: >301 max.[/SIZE][/B]
[/SPOILER]
Assumptions:
- Rank 1 Critical Hit
- 30% Critical hit chance on every hit
- This applies only to 2-handed weapons such as bows, swords and knuckles. (Staves and batteries not included)
- This does not take into account minimum damage, average damage or balance. Only max damage has been used.
- The value 301 applies to 5th Step items (6th step closer to 299, 3rd step closer to 305)
Note: I have an Excel Spreadsheet for the working out, if you're particularly interested, PM me for a copy
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Rydian wrote on 2014-07-20 06:16
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drezzt wrote on 2014-07-20 07:47
Looking at this... Does this mean that for higher prot monsters, say if you're using a two handed sword and can't. Reduce protection, so your effective crit is sub-30 it might be better to go blue instead of red, regardless of max damage?
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-20 10:49
Quote from drezzt;1233408:
Looking at this... Does this mean that for higher prot monsters, say if you're using a two handed sword and can't. Reduce protection, so your effective crit is sub-30 it might be better to go blue instead of red, regardless of max damage?
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The truth is, it's not hard to surpass that 301 damage, nor 70 crit.
These are not even mid-game stats. An early-mid game stat would easily surpass the threshold for the red stone upgrade.
Basically what does this say? Don't go blue unless it's wands, it's a waste of your money.
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drezzt wrote on 2014-07-20 13:32
Quote from ironwoman;1233433:
The truth is, it's not hard to surpass that 301 damage, nor 70 crit.
These are not even mid-game stats. An early-mid game stat would easily surpass the threshold for the red stone upgrade.
Basically what does this say? Don't go blue unless it's wands, it's a waste of your money.
Ahh I see. For some reason, I thought protection still worked In a fashion in which you need double the crit to negate the crit reducing qualities of the protection, but I see that is no longer the case. Effectively the monster will only get about 50 prot max, meaning I'll need only about 130, maybe a little more, which is easy.
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Rydian wrote on 2014-07-20 18:12
Er... crit chance is still reduced by 2% per effective protection. 70% crit rate in your screen means a monster can only have up to 20 protection, 21 or more and you're at less than 30% effective crit. Battle For Taillteann II's archers on advanced have 22 effective protection (as the prot->effective-prot change only seemed to happen for players), meaning you'd need more than 70% crit rate to get 30% crit on them, assuming no piercing.
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drezzt wrote on 2014-07-20 19:37
Quote from Rydian;1233476:
Er... crit chance is still reduced by 2% per effective protection. 70% crit rate in your screen means a monster can only have up to 20 protection, 21 or more and you're at less than 30% effective crit. Battle For Taillteann II's archers on advanced have 22 effective protection (as the prot->effective-prot change only seemed to happen for players), meaning you'd need more than 70% crit rate to get 30% crit on them, assuming no piercing.
Soluna says otherwise (second post on the page)
I dunno, but soluna usually has her shet down. But I'm not sure who to believe because I lack solid evidence... I seem to crit plenty in abyss and lord, even though my crit is only around 130 ish and the monsters there are supposed to have ~70 prot according to wiki...
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RegisAreus wrote on 2014-07-20 23:13
So go red for shuriken?
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-21 00:50
Quote from RegisAreus;1233532:
So go red for shuriken?
Yes. Also, piercing has no effect in calculating crit.
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Rydian wrote on 2014-07-21 06:20
Quote from drezzt;1233493:
Soluna says otherwise (second post on the page)
I dunno, but soluna usually has her shet down. But I'm not sure who to believe because I lack solid evidence... I seem to crit plenty in abyss and lord, even though my crit is only around 130 ish and the monsters there are supposed to have ~70 prot according to wiki...
If so, the wiki's info was not updated for that, even though all the stats got two passes with the stat changes.
But that link is 500'ing so I can't see what the tests/logic are.
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drezzt wrote on 2014-07-21 06:56
Quote from Rydian;1233665:
If so, the wiki's info was not updated for that, even though all the stats got two passes with the stat changes.
But that link is 500'ing so I can't see what the tests/logic are.
I think we both meant the same thing, but you worded it better. Effective prot cuts crit, right?
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Rydian wrote on 2014-07-21 15:35
K the link loaded now.
Soluna says the formula for effective prot (that is, the damage reduction) is the same, so yeah -2% crit for every effective protection, so you'd need more than 70% to get 30% effective crit on whatever-the-hell I mentioned before.
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-21 15:54
Quote from Rydian;1233718:
K the link loaded now.
Soluna says the formula for effective prot (that is, the damage reduction) is the same, so yeah -2% crit for every effective protection, so you'd need more than 70% to get 30% effective crit on whatever-the-hell I mentioned before.
Still not very hard to get. With crit bonus added from weapons as well as abundance of will and crit from enchants can negate this very easily.
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Rydian wrote on 2014-07-22 05:53
Yeah, 20-22 prot isn't hard to overcome (especially with fighter and base luck skills), just saying 70% isn't really the point people should be aiming for. Given what I know of enemy protection in general, I'd say 90-100% should be the goal to safely be able to crit in stuff you'll run randomly.
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December wrote on 2014-07-22 13:47
Cool tool, Rydian. Would've saved me doing the calculations myself. Although, I think it would be beneficial to have the threshholds already tabulated on your website, just a suggestion.
Do mobs no longer have high levels of protection post stat-rework? Cause I recall people saying you need like 150~170 crit for Alby Adv HM and SW HM