Multiple skill-related questions

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Kaeporo wrote on 2010-09-02 03:23

1. Can someone explain skill balance?
(I suppose that this only applies to Crash Shot because it's the only skill with a fluctuating multiplier)
Example: A player with 50-100 damage and 80 balance has an average damage output of 90 damage. Is the skill multiplier balance equal to your balance? Would that 150-250% multiplier yield an average multiplier of 230%

2. Will the elemental mastery skills have any effect on the magic shield skills?

3. Will barrier spikes increase Crash Shot's implosion damage?

4. Can pets act as a lightning rod by maintaining chaincasted lightning bolt?

5. Can someone explain the chaincast multiplier?
(Applies to Firebolt, Ice Spear, Water Cannon, Flame Burst, Hailstorm, etc)
Example: Firebolt deals 6.5x damage at five charges. How much damage will four charges deal? 400% ?

6. Can someone explain the Arrow Revolver aim bonus? Combined with r1 Human Ranged Attack does it boost your aim speed by 350%, 450% or 300% at 50-100%

7. Can you currently fletch special ammunition using the handicraft skill?
rinaek wrote on 2010-09-02 03:50

4. Pets can act as lightning rods. I've tested it.
So far, I haven't managed to make an AI that tells the pet to charge lightningbolt once every 12 seconds. The current one I have spams the skill nonstop without attacking, and kills its mana rather quickly.

5. For firebolt, 4 charges supposedly deals more than 400% damage, since in theory, there is a small damage bonus on top of the extra charge. Personally, I rarely see 5 charges actually doing over 5 times the damage of a single charge. I can't confirm for ice spear, since the explosions make the numbers hard to see.

Quote from in game book A_Guidebook_on_Firebolt

As I explained earlier, you can charge your fireball multiple times and increase its strength and size.
This is a very useful skill which gives you different degrees of attacks to choose from.

The benefit of this is that the same amount of Mana is used during each charge; however, the damage of the attack increases with each charge.
In other words, if your fireball attack produces a damage of 5, the second charge will give 6 damage, a total of 11 in damage. The third charge will give 7, then 8...and so on. Keep this in mind to efficiently select your attacks according to your situation and ability. This skill is not only limited to the Firebolt but can be used with any fire-based magic, so make sure to have enough Mana at all times.
Chihaya wrote on 2010-09-02 12:25

Quote from Kaeporo;143633:
1. Can someone explain skill balance?
(I suppose that this only applies to Crash Shot because it's the only skill with a fluctuating multiplier)
Example: A player with 50-100 damage and 80 balance has an average damage output of 90 damage. Is the skill multiplier balance equal to your balance? Would that 150-250% multiplier yield an average multiplier of 230%

2. Will the elemental mastery skills have any effect on the magic shield skills?

3. Will barrier spikes increase Crash Shot's implosion damage?

4. Can pets act as a lightning rod by maintaining chaincasted lightning bolt?

5. Can someone explain the chaincast multiplier?
(Applies to Firebolt, Ice Spear, Water Cannon, Flame Burst, Hailstorm, etc)
Example: Firebolt deals 6.5x damage at five charges. How much damage will four charges deal? 400% ?

6. Can someone explain the Arrow Revolver aim bonus? Combined with r1 Human Ranged Attack does it boost your aim speed by 350%, 450% or 300% at 50-100%

7. Can you currently fletch special ammunition using the handicraft skill?

My my... you're the curious one =)

1) Balance does work similar to what you described.
Average Damage = Lowest Attack Range * ((Highest Attack Range - Lowest Attack Range)*Balance as a decimal)
there was someone who tested this, but it seems that he hit an average of slightly HIGHER attacks than what his Average Damage would be (eg. He hit 60 when he should've hit 50).
Basically, the above formula is the accepted one, and if you wanted to test this, you'll have to get at LEAST 10000 hits, so that you can accurately prove your point. Make sure that Enchants are not affecting anything else.

2) Elemental Mastery should decrease the casting MP cost of the Respective shields by the rank's given. However, no other effects should be observed

3) No. If your barrier spikes are also hit with the crash shot explosion, the damage to the enemies should actually be DECREASED

4) Sorry, I don't know about this

5) I also do not know much about this. However, it should be easy to test it as well, and it's certain that every charge adds damage more than the charge previous.

1 Charge: 100%
2 Charge: 220%?
3 Charge: 360%?
4 Charge: 520%?
5 Charge: 650%

My guess =)

6) The aim STARTS at 30% and 50% and rises from there. However, the aim speed increases as if it was starting at 0%.
The time it takes for ranged attack to go from 0% > 49% and
The time it takes for r1 Arrow Revolver (gets 50% bonus) to go from 50% > 99% will be EXACTLY the same provided same ranged attack ranks. However, only the first arrow will receive the bonus

7) Special Ammunition? Please specify. It is true that fine arrowheads and boltheads are sold by Nicca, which can be used to make fine and finest arrows respectively.

Hope these helped =D
Fumy wrote on 2010-09-02 15:58

Quote from Joyjason;143899:
1) Balance does work similar to what you described.
Average Damage = Lowest Attack Range * ((Highest Attack Range - Lowest Attack Range)*Balance as a decimal)
there was someone who tested this, but it seems that he hit an average of slightly HIGHER attacks than what his Average Damage would be (eg. He hit 60 when he should've hit 50).
Basically, the above formula is the accepted one, and if you wanted to test this, you'll have to get at LEAST 10000 hits, so that you can accurately prove your point. Make sure that Enchants are not affecting anything else.

He's talking about Crash Shot... He asked if balance does affect it :S
Well I heard it depends on the number of enemies you hit I doubt that tho

Finest Special Arrow - Mabinogi World Wiki <- Special Arrow
Phanterz wrote on 2010-09-03 03:16

Quote from rinaek;143660:
4. Pets can act as lightning rods. I've tested it.
So far, I haven't managed to make an AI that tells the pet to charge lightningbolt once every 12 seconds. The current one I have spams the skill nonstop without attacking, and kills its mana rather quickly.

5. For firebolt, 4 charges supposedly deals more than 400% damage, since in theory, there is a small damage bonus on top of the extra charge. Personally, I rarely see 5 charges actually doing over 5 times the damage of a single charge. I can't confirm for ice spear, since the explosions make the numbers hard to see.

Quote from in game book A_Guidebook_on_Firebolt

That (the in-game book quote) as you can see, is incorrect, as then 5 charges would produce 35 damage, which is 700% of one charge.
But I'm pretty sure that the damage increase for each charge follows an arithmetic progression.

So 1 = 100%
2 = 237.5%
3 = 375%
4 = 512.5%
5 = 650%

^Guess
Justified wrote on 2010-09-03 04:47

Quote from Phanterz;144588:
That (the in-game book quote) as you can see, is incorrect, as then 5 charges would produce 35 damage, which is 700% of one charge.
But I'm pretty sure that the damage increase for each charge follows an arithmetic progression.

I think the point the in-game book is illustrating is that it's more of a exponential increase, rather than linear increase.
Smaller digits and rounding makes it more susceptible to margin of error (thus the 700%) and no magic starts at 5 damage anyways.
Taliya wrote on 2010-09-03 06:27

1) A theoretical way to look at balance outside of just a formula is to think of it as a weight in a bell curve. Say your damage range is 1~100 and you have 80% balance. Most of your attacks will do around 80 damage. Note that 50% of the time you'll be hitting above 80 damage and the other 50% will obviously be below 80 damage. None the less, most of the time your damage will be around 80.

That's that best theoretical way I can explain it.
Phunkie wrote on 2010-09-03 06:43

Quote from Taliya;144941:
1) A theoretical way to look at balance outside of just a formula is to think of it as a weight in a bell curve. Say your damage range is 1~100 and you have 80% balance. Most of your attacks will do around 80 damage. Note that 50% of the time you'll be hitting above 80 damage and the other 50% will obviously be below 80 damage. None the less, most of the time your damage will be around 80.

That's that best theoretical way I can explain it.

I thought it was the mean damage, not 8/10th's of your max damage?

Because magic balance can go all the way up to 100%, however you don't always hit the same (max possible) damage.

I read somewhere that 80% balance you hit over your mean damage 8 out of 10 times. In the example you used, the mean would be 50. So you'd hit over 50 damage 80% of the time.

It makes sense with magic balance too. With a range of 1~100 and a magic balance of 100%, you would hit over 50 damage all the time, which explains why you don't always hit your max possible damage. You still have a range of 50~100 that you could hit.
Taliya wrote on 2010-09-03 12:05

Quote from Phunkie;144959:
I thought it was the mean damage, not 8/10th's of your max damage?

Because magic balance can go all the way up to 100%, however you don't always hit the same (max possible) damage.

I read somewhere that 80% balance you hit over your mean damage 8 out of 10 times. In the example you used, the mean would be 50. So you'd hit over 50 damage 80% of the time.

It makes sense with magic balance too. With a range of 1~100 and a magic balance of 100%, you would hit over 50 damage all the time, which explains why you don't always hit your max possible damage. You still have a range of 50~100 that you could hit.

I did say it was the mean damage. " Most of your attacks will do around 80 damage"

...and I said you'd hit over 80 damage 50% of the time. I think you read what I said wrong.

As for the magic range portion note that I did say it was a bell curve. Meaning that farthest points from the mean become an extreme rarity.
Omegatronic wrote on 2010-09-03 13:35

Quote from Kaeporo;143633:
1. Can someone explain skill balance?
(I suppose that this only applies to Crash Shot because it's the only skill with a fluctuating multiplier)
Example: A player with 50-100 damage and 80 balance has an average damage output of 90 damage. Is the skill multiplier balance equal to your balance? Would that 150-250% multiplier yield an average multiplier of 230%

Why does there need to be a "skill multiplier balance"? Couldn't it be an even distribution?

Quote from Kaeporo;143633:
7. Can you currently fletch special ammunition using the handicraft skill?

They are not on the list at r7 handicraft.
Phunkie wrote on 2010-09-03 14:55

Quote from Taliya;145057:
I did say it was the mean damage. " Most of your attacks will do around 80 damage"

...and I said you'd hit over 80 damage 50% of the time. I think you read what I said wrong.

As for the magic range portion note that I did say it was a bell curve. Meaning that farthest points from the mean become an extreme rarity.

Ah, sorry about that. I must have been insane or something.

Carry on. lmao
Kaeporo wrote on 2010-09-03 17:39

I understand how balance is used to calculate average damage. The standard formulas for determining average damage and average critical damage follow,

Formula:
(max-min)balance+min

Example:
(100-50)0.8+50 = 90 avgD

Formula:
(max-min)balance+min+(max * critical multiplier)

Example:
(100-50)0.8+50+(100 * 1.5) = 240 avgD

What I wanted to know was whether or not skill multipliers followed this formula.

Example: If smash dealt 100-500% damage at r1 would the skill's balance parallel your own? If so it would have an average weighted multiplier of 420%

Thanks for your inputs thus far.
Justified wrote on 2010-09-03 19:18

Quote from Kaeporo;145220:
What I wanted to know was whether or not skill multipliers followed this formula.

Smash doesn't have a range, it's simply 500%.

Your balance would be calculated from :
[(skill mult)max-(skill mult)min]balance+(skill mult)min

Which amounts to the same thing as :
(skill mult)(avgD)

Examples :
[(5.0)100-(5.0)50]0.8+(5.0)50
[500-250]0.8+250
200+250
450

5.0(90)
450

Edit:
In reference to Crash Shot, then probably yes Balance is derived in the same way - unless there's another hidden stat similar to how Magic has Magic Balance and Alchemy has whoknowswhat to determine skill balance. Since this is still a "Combat" skill, the only tier that the character stat window properly reflects, it's probably the former.