Magic Weapons: Red vs. Blue Special Upgrades

• Kelvas wrote on 2015-02-08 23:28
  [SIZE="4"]1. Introduction[/SIZE]
  Magic is unlike any other skillset in Mabinogi, in the sense of the uniqueness of its damage calculation. Unlike the simple multipliers of classical skills, magic damage calculation involves magic attack coefficients, base damage, full charge damage bonus, and masteries which vary from spell to spell. With the existence of these factors, the effectiveness of blue versus red special upgrades will also vary from spell to spell, which will be covered in this thread.
  For the sake of simplicity, I will be using a spreadsheet with these underlying formula to calculate the breakpoint in which average damage of r6 surpasses s6.
  
  Blue - Step 6:
  S6 Damage = {([base damage] + ([magic attack coefficient] * [matk + 84])) * [mastery bonus] * [full charge with bonus if applicable]}
  
  S6 Average Damage = {(S6 Damage * 0.7) + (S6 Damage * 2.5 * 0.3)}
  
  Red - Step 6:
  R6 Damage = {([base damage] + ([magic attack coefficient] * [matk])) * [mastery bonus] * [full charge with bonus if applicable]}
  
  R6 Average Damage = {(R6 Damage * 0.7) + (R6 Damage * 3.12 * 0.3)}
  
  [SIZE="1"]*Magic Weapon Mastery and Bolt Mastery will be added on mastery bonus multiplicatively.
  **Mastery titles, mastery reforges, hebona set effect, ect. will be disregarded, but normally will stack additively to their respective masteries. Combo cards will also be ignored.
  ***Balance will be assumed to be 100%.
  ****All spells + masteries are assumed to be rank 1.[/SIZE]
  
  The “R6>S6 MATK” will list my results for each spell, which represents the MATK at which average damage of red special upgrade at step 6 surpasses average damage of blue upgrades at step 6, without including the matk from blue upgrades.
  
  [SIZE="4"]2. Bolt Magic[/SIZE]
  
  i. Icebolt
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/5/50/Icebolt.png]

  
  Base Damage: 80
  MATK Coefficient: 0.4
  Full Charge Multiplier: 1
  R6>S6 MATK: 455
  
  ii. Lightning Bolt
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/f/fd/Lightning_Bolt.png]

  
  Base Damage: 150
  MATK Coefficient: 0.6
  Full Charge Multiplier: 1.26 (post renovation)
  R6>S6 MATK: 405
  
  iii. Firebolt
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/0/0f/Firebolt.png]

  
  Base Damage: 120
  MATK Coefficient: 0.5
  Full Charge Multiplier: 6.5
  R6>S6 MATK: 415
  [SIZE="1"](Max damage gained from Battlefield Overture, ego fire wand, enchants, etc. get added to the damage of Firebolt, so the true breakpoint is lower. Ratio of damage gained is ~0.82 max damage point per MATK.) [/SIZE]
  
  [SIZE="4"]3. Intermediate Magic[/SIZE]
  
  i. Ice Spear
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/e/e4/Ice_Spear.png]

  
  Base Damage: 240
  MATK Coefficient: 1.4
  Full Charge Multiplier: 6.5
  R6>S6 MATK: 485
  
  ii. Thunder
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/3/3d/Thunder.png]

  
  Base Damage: 400
  MATK Coefficient: 2.1
  Full Charge Multiplier: 6
  R6>S6 MATK: 465
  
  iii. Fireball
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/a/ae/Fireball.png]

  
  Base Damage: 2400
  MATK Coefficient: 12
  Full Charge Multiplier: 1
  R6>S6 MATK: 455
  
  [SIZE="4"]4. Advanced Magic[/SIZE]
  
  i. Hailstorm
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/8/84/Hail_Storm.png]

  
  Base Damage: 300
  MATK Coefficient: 3.2
  Full Charge Multiplier: 6.25
  R6>S6 MATK: 562
  
  ii. Meteor Strike
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/6/6d/Meteor_Strike.png]

  
  Base Damage: 16200
  MATK Coefficient: 30
  Full Charge Multiplier: 1
  R6>S6 MATK: 115
  
  iii. Lightning Rod
  

  [Image: http://i57.tinypic.com/dq27u8.png]

  
  Base Damage: 465
  MATK Coefficient: 12
  Full Charge Multiplier: 3
  R6>S6 MATK: 617
  
  [SIZE="4"]5. Other Spells [/SIZE]
  
  i. Blaze
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/b/bd/Blaze.png]

  
  MATK Coefficient: 60.75*
  R6>S6 MATK: 655
  [SIZE="1"]*Blaze does not actually have a matk coefficient of that magnitude, but for the sake of calculations, blaze damage without blaze damage gloves is (MATK * 60.75) at r1 blaze, fully charged with full knockdown. It is essentially the effective coefficient which includes all other base factors. [/SIZE]
  
  ii. Shockwave
  

  [Image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/6/65/Shockwave.png]

  
  Base Damage: 400
  MATK Coefficient: 5
  Full Charge Multiplier: 1
  R6>S6 MATK: 575
  
  
  [SIZE="4"]6. Conclusion[/SIZE]
  The breakpoints for red upgrades to surpass blue upgrades are relatively high, and have an average of 493 Magic Attack (excluding Meteor Strike and Blaze). With this in mind, it is safe to say that the majority of mages would find blue upgrades to be much more beneficial in terms of average damage.
  
  I want to say this one more time, just in case someone misunderstood. The numbers that I calculated are for average damage, not just crit or just normal. Even if you do not hit the breakpoint, your red critical damage may surpass blue's, but that doesn't mean that reds are better overall.
  
  [SIZE="4"]Extra Section: Practicality[/SIZE]
  A friend brought up the practicality regarding my numbers for r6 vs s6 breakpoints. His tested values didn't match.
  As far as I can tell, the calculated values will be slightly different than practical values because I omitted many factors like magic protection, magic defense, and balance (if it even exists for magic). My numbers are not completely accurate, because certain factors will vary from situation to situation, however, the break points listed above are accurate enough to be used as reference points though.
  Let's take protection and defense into account. For instance, say a hypothetical monster has 50 magic defense and 20% reduction from magic protection. Assume that a hypothetical spell does 500 on s6 critical, and 600 on r6 critical.
  [SIZE="1"]S6 Damage: (500-50)*.8 = 360 ||| Damage lost: 28%
  R6 Damage: (600-50)*.8 = 440 ||| Damage lost: 26.7%[/SIZE]
  More damage is lost with lower critical damage (blue) than with higher critical damage (red) percentage-wise. Therefore, red is more beneficial in certain cases than blue. It will vary from mission to mission, but the general trend of higher defense and protection are in higher difficulties, and with that said, the actual practical break points will vary more in higher difficulties. In another case, using r6, non-crit damage is lower than s6 non-crit, percentage loss in damage will also be different to reflect that. Other times, monsters have elemental affinities or spells will not hit for its highest damage.
  
  
  Special thanks to Mabinogi World Wiki for coefficients, base damage and images, and to Nation's KR team for renovation data.
  Feel free to add or correct anything, and thanks for reading!
• Rydian wrote on 2015-02-09 17:40
  If Int is hard-capped at 1500, then that's 300 base MA, so with capped Int you'd have to have to have over 100 (at minimum) MA from enchants/reforges/upgrades/wands for the break.
  
  ... I'm starting to think that maybe something broke (equation imbalance) during one of the updates that affected magic and they didn't notice?
• Kelvas wrote on 2015-02-09 18:32
  298 from stats
  90 from titles
  80+24/44 from reforges
  12 langu circlet
  magic weapon crafting bonus
  weapon upgrades
  Insignificant enchants
  
  
  It's possible to hit some of the breakpoint but it's difficult.
• steevosson wrote on 2015-03-13 12:24
  Thanks for the nice sharing i appreciated your work good job i like your post
• DonaldTheMage wrote on 2015-04-22 02:45
  I prefer Blue ups considering they add straight to the magic attack pool instead of chance in crits.
• Citrusjuice wrote on 2015-04-22 15:07
  so... I made my Merlin's blue. Is that right or am I crazy
• Fracture wrote on 2015-04-22 15:57

  Quote from Citrusjuice;1271875:

  so... I made my Merlin's blue. Is that right or am I crazy

  
  
  Well it's almost definitely better for any magic you do with them, while likely being worse for melee attacking you do with them.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-04-22 17:12
  Merlins use 1-handed red upgrades and 2-handed blues, so the cutoff is ~550 damage for them.
  Same with Shurikens and some other weapons that have gimped red upgrades.
• JamesCook16 wrote on 2015-04-25 16:27

  Quote from Citrusjuice;1271875:

  so... I made my Merlin's blue. Is that right or am I crazy

  
  
  Im gunna say yes your crazy because IIRC Blue Merlin's contribute to max dmg for Melee and don't contribute to magic attack in anyway.
• tanino wrote on 2015-08-09 02:58
  This guide lacks a very very important part when it comes to bolt magic to the very least,
  The add in value of Max Attack from Enchants and Buffs.
  8 Max From Enchants/Buffs = 10 Magic Attack pretty much, at least when it comes to Firebolt, meaning you could by far be breaking the break-even point for Firebolt(and other bolts) even if you only have 300 Magic Attack.
  
  So if you have like 200 max from enchants and similar sources, that's similar to 160 MA. Then imagine you have 1000+ character screen damage with your wand and you get a 50% bfo, that'd be similar to gaining 400 magic attack.
• Rydian wrote on 2016-09-13 02:42
  So I got my hands on a Celtic Tribolt with +25 base MA, and since the repair fees are much lower than I thought they would be (like holy hell, 1/4th of Savage), I plan to make it my main wand. Since it'll have much higher MA, it'll be replacing...
  
  1 - My S5 Speed+12% Savage Lightning (made for rafting and lockdown before the magic speed changes hit NA).
  2 - My S6 CC+5 Savage Fire (used for murderizing things).
  
  I also have an S5 CC+5 Savage Ice (originally made for niche uses and training), but I'm going to keep that for Blaze since it does much more damage there and I can IS->Blaze with it.
  
  My MA is...
  ~238 with no bonuses.
  ~263 with the wand held.
  ~281 with titles (Magic Weapon Master and Merlin).
  ~306 with titles and the wand held.
  
  For upgrades (before gem), I plan to go for the CC+4 and +12 MA upgrade path because +speed is tempting, but only 7% isn't worth it.
  
  Thing is, I rarely use mage as my main offensive form, usually it's secondary to melee (Lightning Rod Blinkers) or situational (CC Firebolt stuff that scares me). So I rarely, if ever, bother to change titles for +MA.
  
  I currently have +42 max damage from enchants, and when holding the wand and my gear and using a normal BFO (no instrument) my character screen damage goes from 522->673 max, a gain of 151.
  
  So uh... any specific insight on red versus blue for this case on the Tribolt?
• ironwoman wrote on 2016-09-13 09:16
  1. You should go the casting speed upgrade because 7% actually does more than the 5 more MA will. To see why, let's look into the Firebolt damage equation.
  
  (120 + MA/2 + Additional Damage/2.5 + Weapon Max Damage (12 for Tribolt) + Wand Multiplier (5) * Charge Number)*6.5 (Full Charge Firebolt multiplier) * (Mastery bonuses total = MWM + Bolt + Fire + 1 = 1.5 + .15 + .15 + 1 = 2.8)
  
  So putting your numbers in... (this one is for without the casting speed upgrade)
  
  (120 + 318/2 + 205/2.5 (your total increase of damage provided by your BFO and enchants affected by BFO) + 12 + 25) * 6.5 * 2.8 = 7,243.6
  
  For the one with casting speed upgrade will net you 7198.1
  
  Now here's where it gets a little tricky and harder to understand. Suppose you it takes you 1 second to cast Firebolt (just easy number to work with). 7% casing speed increase means that with the casting speed wand, you'd take .93 second to cast Firebolt, agreed? If we look at 93 seconds mark, we're looking at 100 Firebolt casted by the speed wand, and 93 with the other wand. So let's multiply our damages by these numbers, which is 719,810 for the speed wand, which is 673,654.8. The casting speed gives you about 6% damage increase. In short, casting speed simply nets you more damage.
  
  Now for your actual question...
  
  Go red. Why? Because you have so much room to improve on, though your cutoff point is already good enough for red anyway.
• Rydian wrote on 2016-09-13 11:35
  Thunder takes 1.293 seconds to charge with my staff (no speed) and 1.138 seconds to charge with my Savage Lightning (+12%), which is -12% time, so it looks like wand upgrades apply properly. So Firebolt, which takes 1.500 seconds, would take 1.395 seconds with -7%. Since it's only functionally replacing Lightning Bolt (which had no use with the wand before) and Firebolt I guess you're right, Firebolt is pretty much repeated DPS.
  
  I've got 133 more base Int I could gain from skills and none from talent ranks. Even if I did go through the trouble of Enchanting and Magic Craft (nothx), I don't forsee myself getting a lot more MA unless it's from Meteor Strike Master, and even then I'd rarely change to it. Is the physical damage bonus already enough to tip the scale without more MA on top?
  
  Also I forgot I've got a level 10 +MA reforge on my fire wand (at rank 2 from chest event) which is +40 MA when held, and I doubt I'm going to replicate that... but that doesn't seem to make as much of a DPM difference as the speed does, right?
• ironwoman wrote on 2016-09-13 12:09
  MA reforge doesn't get you much more DPS, it's an OK placeholder for now.
  
  As for more damage on Firebolt... come on, people in Mabination went over this like a thousand times. If you haven't noticed right away, it's max damage. You said you get 42 max from enchants, and you probably know that you can get much more. Basically, 10 max = 8 MA (see the equation), and even though the ratio is worse for max, it's just that enchants give much more max than MA. And this accounts for easily obtainable enchants like Encore, Camo, Solo, Dexterity, etc. You get the point.
• Splatulated wrote on 2017-04-15 20:21
  Do i blue up or red up a tribolt?
  
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/498drYF.png]

  
  
  
  sorry for necropost but i was linked here by reddit and official forums will remove any links to nation