Mabiland & Apostle Difficulty Raid Community Report

• Esileruf wrote on 2015-03-24 13:42

  Quote from ironwoman;1268826:

  Except having Vales shield still won't matter as much when you can run around with 60 damage cooking pot.

  
  
  Amusingly enough, apparently spell-book tier weapons are available for the max damage reforge as well. This applies to the HEM as its not considered a 'true' shield (Will NOT ping under defense with magic/ranged under NO circumstances).
  
  With points to the two shields to use for endgame-tier, its a toss-up between the HEM and the Guard cylinder. HEM makes it so relying on natural defense instead of mana shield, which is viable in many situations, is less needed. It however lacks in defensive-stacking with MS, due to not being a true shield. It apparently according to the KR item simulator, and I will have to check with a friend as well, gets max damage reforge, so that is a bonus as well.
  
  Meanwhile, the guard cylinder's biggest things are the alchemic utility you can use, life-drain for instant hp increase when needed, much more useful with defense+heavy armors rather than the ms-based HEM, and as Kaeporo said, has access to many of the defensive alchemy at a short notice, with even faster switching to heavier alchemy.
  
  The only other shield I'd ever consider using would be a targe/demonic fear shield for pingmaster without resorting to indigo candies, which are harmful to you as they disable defense so you can't pretend you're a fiona. And this is speaking from an elf. I cannot consider the Vales shield and the usability of charge even with renovation+avon seems minimal, and this is speaking from a mostly wand+offhand perspective, instead of lance+off as a giant, or the rare x+board as a human/elf. There are situations where defense is more effective than blaze-dodging (I can technically timing it correctly blaze dodge 4/5 thunderstrikes if I ignore the first bolt via stun reduction methods and actually aren't locked to oblivion. Its much better to defend however.)
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-03-24 13:54

  Quote from ironwoman;1268826:

  Except having Vales shield still won't matter as much when you can run around with 60 damage cooking pot.

  
  
  Let's not pretend oblivion alteration is exclusive to the pot. Really, it's 40 max at best that anyone would miss out on. Sure, it's a nice chunk, but why spend so much on getting a cooking pot to r1 and spend even more to hope for a max roll when it's so easy to buy an alternative (GC or vales) that's on par for a tiny fraction of the cost? Even then, other reforges for other weapons seem more suitable to spend on before spending on a cooking pot.
  
  That said, VALES SHIELD R00LZ
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-03-24 16:26

  Quote from gundamweed;1268860:

  Let's not pretend oblivion alteration is exclusive to the pot. Really, it's 40 max at best that anyone would miss out on. Sure, it's a nice chunk, but why spend so much on getting a cooking pot to r1 and spend even more to hope for a max roll when it's so easy to buy an alternative (GC or vales) that's on par for a tiny fraction of the cost? Even then, other reforges for other weapons seem more suitable to spend on before spending on a cooking pot.
  
  That said, VALES SHIELD R00LZ

  
  
  Except some people kill to have that extra 40 damage, because frankly, there can be a point where that much damage is hard to get from scaling up.
  I guess it's one of those things that are hard to understand when you're not really at the stage of the game to take 40 extra damage seriously.
  
  You can't say that GC or Vales is on par because the shields here provide something different. GC and Vales is for utility, cooking pot for damage, and what will people generally look for? Damage. Vales shield pretty much loses its effectiveness when you can pretty much take no damage from mobs with just Thames Armor set on as a Giant, and only real use for it is when you go into field boss raids.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-03-24 20:30

  Quote from ironwoman;1268873:

  Except some people kill to have that extra 40 damage, because frankly, there can be a point where that much damage is hard to get from scaling up.
  I guess it's one of those things that are hard to understand when you're not really at the stage of the game to take 40 extra damage seriously.
  
  You can't say that GC or Vales is on par because the shields here provide something different. GC and Vales is for utility, cooking pot for damage, and what will people generally look for? Damage. Vales shield pretty much loses its effectiveness when you can pretty much take no damage from mobs with just Thames Armor set on as a Giant, and only real use for it is when you go into field boss raids.

  
  
  Have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe people aren't as crazy for damage as you think they are? I suppose if you're at that very extreme of the playing population where all your weapons for your many skillsets are reforged to your heart's desire, decked out with the best possible enchants, and you're totally capped out on strength, I could see where that 40 max would be a magical boost to your 900+ max or what have you.
  
  
  For everyone else, however, vales and GC are the way to go, simply for the reason of practicality and cost effectiveness. It's not even going cheap because you're getting something of big value the cooking pot can't offer. Vales lets you solo a red dragon without ever having to chug a single HP potion, among surviving other unsurvivable situations. GC grants you access to most of the alchemy tab. Add in a simple ctrl+click weapon switch, and you get access to the fun stuff. Cooking pot? 40 damage? Pssh, big deal.
  
  Remember, it's not all about damage.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-03-24 20:50

  Quote from gundamweed;1268883:

  Have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe people aren't as crazy for damage as you think they are? I suppose if you're at that very extreme of the playing population where all your weapons for your many skillsets are reforged to your heart's desire, decked out with the best possible enchants, and you're totally capped out on strength, I could see where that 40 max would be a magical boost to your 900+ max or what have you.
  
  
  For everyone else, however, vales and GC are the way to go, simply for the reason of practicality and cost effectiveness. It's not even going cheap because you're getting something of big value the cooking pot can't offer. Vales lets you solo a red dragon without ever having to chug a single HP potion, among surviving other unsurvivable situations. GC grants you access to most of the alchemy tab. Add in a simple ctrl+click weapon switch, and you get access to the fun stuff. Cooking pot? 40 damage? Pssh, big deal.
  
  Remember, it's not all about damage.

  
  
  It doesn't have to be a magical boost for people to use the cooking pot. Just by having that extra damage, even a little, for means that can't be obtained through stats, it's worth it. It's essentially the same reason why people reforge accessories just for that small boost.
  
  I'd say Vales shield and GC is more favored towards people that aren't at end game level yet, and even so, has limited situations. Like I said before, having Vales shield is pretty redundant when you get shit load of defensive stats from strength and heavy armors, and there really aren't going to be many situations where it just completely outclasses others. Sure, you could say soloing Red Dragon, but I doubt you're the only one doing the raid. You can say against Crumena or whatever, but then a Lance Charge can one shot it. As for GC, the utility, aka the Alchemy skills, become pretty useless when you're doing 15k windmill. Why would you even bother using those skills when you have a constant AoE that will just rip through everything? The only possible justification I can think of is when you're not strong enough and you need the utility, in which case, you probably don't even have well developed gears to have access to reforged cooking pot.
  
  With the exception of few cases, cooking pot really is the way to go. GC is really meant for people geared towards alchemy, and when we're talking about the end results, we don't need to consider cost effectiveness if you're planning to go all-in, because you want the best realistic damage output for your character. If you're concerned about cost, of course Vales shield will be the answer for you. You can say Vales shield is more cost efficient, because it truly is, but you really can't argue that it's "better" due to its redundancy.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-03-24 23:11

  Quote from ironwoman;1268885:

  It doesn't have to be a magical boost for people to use the cooking pot. Just by having that extra damage, even a little, for means that can't be obtained through stats, it's worth it. It's essentially the same reason why people reforge accessories just for that small boost.
  
  I'd say Vales shield and GC is more favored towards people that aren't at end game level yet, and even so, has limited situations. Like I said before, having Vales shield is pretty redundant when you get shit load of defensive stats from strength and heavy armors, and there really aren't going to be many situations where it just completely outclasses others. Sure, you could say soloing Red Dragon, but I doubt you're the only one doing the raid. You can say against Crumena or whatever, but then a Lance Charge can one shot it. As for GC, the utility, aka the Alchemy skills, become pretty useless when you're doing 15k windmill. Why would you even bother using those skills when you have a constant AoE that will just rip through everything? The only possible justification I can think of is when you're not strong enough and you need the utility, in which case, you probably don't even have well developed gears to have access to reforged cooking pot.
  
  With the exception of few cases, cooking pot really is the way to go. GC is really meant for people geared towards alchemy, and when we're talking about the end results, we don't need to consider cost effectiveness if you're planning to go all-in, because you want the best realistic damage output for your character. If you're concerned about cost, of course Vales shield will be the answer for you. You can say Vales shield is more cost efficient, because it truly is, but you really can't argue that it's "better" due to its redundancy.

  
  
  Reforging accessories to further improve damage isn't the same thing as choosing a cooking pot over another shield.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-03-24 23:47

  Quote from Kaeporo;1268892:

  Reforging accessories to further improve damage isn't the same thing as choosing a cooking pot over another shield.

  
  
  It's more or less similar reason. There are people that prefer damage reforges over utility reforges like shieldless charge, and people who choose purple hearts and avenger accessories instead of droseras. There are accessories that serve different purposes, depending on reforges, types, enchants, etc.
  
  Shields are less diverse in that area, to say the least. Either ways, I still see the cooking pot as a better choice for a shield that you'll carry most of the situations, as in most of the situations, you really shouldn't even need a shield. If you're 1v1ing a Red Dragon or is that infamous person who solos Black Dragon, then yeah, I would use Vales Shield. As for GC, I really don't think its utility is enough to justify, and should really be used alongside with a cylinder.
  
  It's still true that cooking pot is shitty in terms of cost efficiency. Whether a player wants that damage or not is up to them, but ignoring all the cost involved, I'd still say cooking pot gives the best return in almost all the cases.
• DefinitelyNotTwin wrote on 2015-03-25 00:13

  Quote from gundamweed;1268883:

  
  Remember, it's not all about damage.

  
  
  Ahh,always feels good to hear someone say that on Mabi.I'd like it to focus on quality gameplay doh
• Kapra wrote on 2015-03-25 01:32
  I'm getting kind of tired coming to this thread expecting something about the update/event and seeing this stuff.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-03-25 03:00

  Quote from ironwoman;1268896:

  It's more or less similar reason. There are people that prefer damage reforges over utility reforges like shieldless charge, and people who choose purple hearts and avenger accessories instead of droseras. There are accessories that serve different purposes, depending on reforges, types, enchants, etc.
  
  Shields are less diverse in that area, to say the least. Either ways, I still see the cooking pot as a better choice for a shield that you'll carry most of the situations, as in most of the situations, you really shouldn't even need a shield. If you're 1v1ing a Red Dragon or is that infamous person who solos Black Dragon, then yeah, I would use Vales Shield. As for GC, I really don't think its utility is enough to justify, and should really be used alongside with a cylinder.
  
  It's still true that cooking pot is shitty in terms of cost efficiency. Whether a player wants that damage or not is up to them, but ignoring all the cost involved, I'd still say cooking pot gives the best return in almost all the cases.

  
  
  The problem with the cooking pot is that it's only useful to Giants who are wielding lances in certain (mostly easier) situations. Giants who are using alchemy are better off with the guard cylinder. Giants who are using magic are better off using the holy eagle mask.
  
  The cooking pot's slight damage bonus would further strengthen Judgement Blade during group raids, but the guard cylinder's access to Life Drain is hugely useful during both solo and group raids. The vales shield's usefulness is mostly limited to dragon raids and those fall pretty easily with a decent crowd but I would still keep one on me.
  
  I can't name any situation where an extra ~20 max damage would warrant losing access to an entire talent beyond Girgashiy decapitation.
  
  

  Quote from Kapra;1268906:

  I'm getting kind of tired coming to this thread expecting something about the update/event and seeing this stuff.

  
  
  You need to leave it the way you want to return to it.
  
  If you want to talk about the event, talk about the event. I don't have anything specific in mind, so i'm responding to the current discussion. "Ask not what this thread can do for you, but what you can do for this thread" ~ JFK, probably
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-03-25 03:08

  Quote from Kaeporo;1268915:

  The problem with the cooking pot is that it's only useful to Giants who are wielding lances in certain (mostly easier) situations. Giants who are using alchemy are better off with the guard cylinder. Giants who are using magic are better off using the holy eagle mask.
  
  The cooking pot's slight damage bonus would further strengthen Judgement Blade during group raids, but the guard cylinder's access to Life Drain is hugely useful during both solo and group raids. The vales shield's usefulness is mostly limited to dragon raids and those fall pretty easily with a decent crowd but I would still keep one on me.
  
  I can't name any situation where an extra ~20 max damage would warrant losing access to an entire talent beyond Girgashiy decapitation.
  

  
  
  Extra 40 possible damage, but that's besides the point. I was assuming we were talking about Giants, since they're really the only people who actually use shields for melee.
  
  Like I said, there are exceptions where Vales shield would be the way to go. As for GC, I mean, we've already seen Mari people demolish Girgashiy in Very Hard. When I say steamrolling, that's the kind of stuff I mean. But then I guess it's justifiable if you're killing it slower.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-03-25 03:32

  Quote from ironwoman;1268917:

  Extra 40 possible damage, but that's besides the point. I was assuming we were talking about Giants, since they're really the only people who actually use shields for melee.
  
  Like I said, there are exceptions where Vales shield would be the way to go. As for GC, I mean, we've already seen Mari people demolish Girgashiy in Very Hard. When I say steamrolling, that's the kind of stuff I mean. But then I guess it's justifiable if you're killing it slower.

  
  
  It's not really an issue of killing it any faster or slower.
  
  In solo you won't be killing it much faster and without life drain you'll have to chug potions to offset contagion.
  In hard or especially very hard you don't have the option of killing it any slower.
• DefinitelyNotTwin wrote on 2015-03-25 11:34
  How often does Raising the Rest enchant drop from HM?
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-03-25 17:13

  Quote from DefinitelyNotTwin;1268935:

  How often does Raising the Rest enchant drop from HM?

  
  
  You sure you got the right name?
  
  I'm quite sure that enchant doesn't exist.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-03-26 00:44

  Quote from ironwoman;1268961:

  You sure you got the right name?
  
  I'm quite sure that enchant doesn't exist.

  
  
  It was a mistranslation, since the characters for Girgashiy in korean go back into "raising the rest" easily.
  Girgashiy ench drops at about a 5~10% rate or so. About one per successful run.