-
Lukshad wrote on 2015-05-04 12:27
I'm having some extreme issues with choosing between the two of them as my secondary skillset. They both have some great perks and benefits, and I believe they both would have good synergy with my primary weapon.
Int and Will are my two highest stats, so please don't make a suggestion based on that.
Which would work the best with a Mage?
Which would work the best with a Fighter?
Thanks for your time!
-
Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-04 13:16
Bullet Slide: Semi-useful but nothing close to an arguing point.
Bullet Storm: Decently powerful but has hefty cooldowns, animations, and poor range.
Flash Launcher: Below-average Smash clone.
Grapple Shot: A generally awful skill.
Reload: An additional penalty tied to gunslinger.
Shooting Rush: Prone to position locking. 400% damage Windmill clone w/500x1100 range
Way of the Gun: Awesome but melee renders it obsolete.
Explosive Kunai: Semi-useful support skill. Future buff improves duration significantly.
Kunai Storm: 500% damage Windmill clone w/400 radius
Sakura Abyss: Massively powerful skill that can decapitate even Martial Arts finals with a single use.
Shadow Bind: Exceptionally useful crowd control skill, provided you have the associated reforge.
Shadow Cloak: A hugely useful tool for maintaining momentum.
Shuriken Charge: Worse than Flash Launcher if you take time to fully charge it. More useful if you fire off quick shots.
Smokescreen: Updated to reduce protection which is always useful.
Ninja is a much more useful talent, imo.
-
spirit2roam wrote on 2015-05-04 14:31
While Ninja is probably better in this time and age, why not both?
Edit: You could be like Kinsoo and hybrid both Ninja and Gunner. Apparently it's a wonderful combination.
-
callback wrote on 2015-05-04 14:41
Quote from Kaeporo;1273629:
Bullet Slide: Semi-useful but nothing close to an arguing point.
Great 1v1 skill, provided the mob doesn't have natural shield. Usable out of stun if you get caught, and otherwise strong to help your 1v1 spacing.
Bullet Storm: Decently powerful but has hefty cooldowns, animations, and poor range.
Power is restricted to vs large AoE, since it scales with number of targets, and it's only really useful when you can use it to 1-shot. Ammo consumption is a nightmare.
Flash Launcher: Below-average Smash clone.
Smash is the below average Smash clone. FL does amazing damage, counts as melee adding versatility against passive defenses, and all without making the mobs invincible while in a party.
Grapple Shot: A generally awful skill.
A very useful punisher skill, followed up by flash launcher. Mostly used (against non-NS) to break through counterattack and set up the FL, but can also interrupt big magic charges well. It's your primary means of opening up opportunities to FL, aside from defense (both your own and the enemy's).
Reload: An additional penalty tied to gunslinger.
Shooting Rush: Prone to position locking. 400% damage Windmill clone w/500x1100 range
So much more than a windmill (and don't bring %s into this, damage ranges vary so much between weapon types it's not really a valid point of comparison). It's the best thing about gunners. Only the impatient get position locked. It's not only a huge waveclear, it has strong knockback against your direction of travel, and is an amazing positioning tool. The sheer AoE of it means that it will typically hit everything on you as far as handling multi-aggro, and it is even good in niche situations like if you are struggling against Cessair in the Saga, since it's straight knockdown through their stun immunity and lets you kite back and forth. Learning how to shooting rush is learning the flow of gunner combat, and is the most rewarding thing you can do with the talent. Does have 1 major drawback, and that's pulling multi-aggro from all targets. Be ready to handle them, likely with some good kiting tactics and more shooting rushes.
Way of the Gun: Awesome but melee renders it obsolete.
Just because FH is OP doesn't mean this is obsolete. FH has a cooldown. What better way to fill it than with the next best skill, and worst abuser of 6R upgrades ever born? Not to mention the additional stun and knockdown, combined with the attack speed, lets you perma-juggle Fleta against a wall in MA. Hilarious.
Explosive Kunai: Semi-useful support skill. Future buff improves duration significantly.
More useful than just support, it is a strong tool for aiding your positioning and offense. A large bonus stun and powerful movement slow, used on both offense and defense. Can also be control-targeted to immediately strike a mob with the center bomb. Does not pull aggro.
Kunai Storm: 500% damage Windmill clone w/400 radius
Again, so much more than a windmill, and % is not a point of argument. Kunai storm is your best tool as a ninja. Long range 3 hit stun, and won't knock down unless they were already about to be. Does not pull aggro, even from the primary target. While it does not knock down, it will set the bar up enough that your next basic attack should be a push back, which you can learn to use well. Hits 3 separate times in its AoE, meaning if you clear a wave with 1 of the his, the remaining hits will strike the next one. Also means that mobs in defense will have it popped, then still take the full stun from the next 2 hits. It won't target whole rooms like shooting rush, but it is still a decent AoE and combo tool, and helps the ninja's "stealth" non-aggro playstyle.
Sakura Abyss: Massively powerful skill that can decapitate even Martial Arts finals with a single use.
Not really, unless you have some SERIOUSLY jacked up stats and reforges going on. Plus the charge time. 15 seconds standing still fully exposed. You will never get to use this skill at all outside of parties with someone to lullaby for you. The damage is nice (not as nice as you claim), but aside from party setups or pre-cast dungeon/SM rooms before you spawn the mobs, you won't be using this in any solo play ever.
Shadow Bind: Exceptionally useful crowd control skill, provided you have the associated reforge.
And without the reforge it's garbage. What's your point?
Shadow Cloak: A hugely useful tool for maintaining momentum.
No momentum, this is an emergency skill for your stealth play. If you suddenly take on more aggro than you intended, this is a free reset with a strong movement boost so you can find a new position and start over. Nice to have because it is the only aggro drop you can use while transformed.
Shuriken Charge: Worse than Flash Launcher if you take time to fully charge it. More useful if you fire off quick shots.
More useful fully charged, but also works as a quick shot in a pinch when you need to quickly end a basic attack combo with a knockback. Damage when charged is insanely good, and it splashes for full damage in a small but decent AoE. Learn the timing for when it counts as full, since the screen flash is a bit lag-based and will delay beyond the real timing. It is the most important part of your combos, but needs to be managed carefully since this and basic attacks are the only things you have that draw aggro. Luckily, the splash does not draw any. Keep in mind this is a big charged ranged attack. You have your full range to charge, can let go at any time if an emergency pops up, and does not need a massive setup like FL or Smash does. Use quick shots only when something is in your face. and you want it out. Otherwise, fill your combo to allow a full charge of time, and it will generally kill the thing you were aiming at. This is your big damage dealer.
Smokescreen: Updated to reduce protection which is always useful.
Very bland support skill. Only useful on raids or similar group fights where you just want to stack debuffs.
Thoughts in quote.
Both are very useful.
Gunner is a bit better in terms of raw damage, especially against single foes, tho it has massive AoE, and may be your fastest clear if you can 1-shot rooms. Gunner flow is a dance of movement, weaving through battle as you go. When done well, gunner is a very clean style, getting you through tough situations completely untouched, but can run into rough spots in muti aggro, especially against casters.
Ninja has a stealth flow, around dealing AoE damage while minimizing aggro, and massively bursting down the single foe who does aggro you. Flow is around holding enemies back as much as possible. Ninjas tend to stand ground in a single spot and defend it well, with shadow cloak as their fallback when that spot becomes compromised, to quickly find a new spot and help clean it out a little with the tornado knockback. Ninja is far better at handling difficult multi aggro mobs, since minimizing aggro is its specialty.
-
Oberynn wrote on 2015-05-04 16:59
Shooting rush is the best DPS AoE, Kunai storm is the best efficiency as an AoE and after future buffs the damage won't be too far behind either.
The answer is to use both, since the synergy for using one while the other is in cooldown is completely perfect. If you only use Shooting Rush or if you only use Kunai Storm you're doing half the AoE DPS.
Kunai Storm absolutely depends on 15+ attack range reforge and is pretty much useless without it however, while Shooting Rush only has a mild dependency on the damage reforge and can be used just fine without it. Both reforges are stupidly rare.
Both skillsets can pair extremely well with a third skillset, although ninja is a lot better at hybrid synergy while guns are a lot better at dealing versatile damage before having to switch to a different skillset.
tl;dr: why not both? just work on the one that is most suitable to you first and then work on the other.
For a fighter ninja might be more suitable, while for a mage guns would be more suitable. Not just the shared stats, but the utilities compliment better that way.
-
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-05-04 18:47
Gunner: Every skill except for Shooting Rush and Way of the Gun is arguably not very useful. The whole skillset is plagued with incredibly long animations, poor range, or pathetically weak damage that's outperformed by a normal attack. For example, Grapple Shot, with the exact same damage % as a normal shot, is significantly slower with its range not even covering a full dungeon room unlike Charge and stuff, and is very liable to get interrupted. Even Bullet Storm and Shooting Rush have a design flaw that locks your character in place for button mashing until the skill is cancelled, which can fuck you up (initially thought to be a bug, but given that there's a condition for it, it's clearly intended).
However, Shooting Rush does cover a lot of ground and width and deals fairly high damage, while Way of the Gun deals huge 1:1 burst damage over time.
Ninja: A support crowd control skillset that deals fairly decent damage while additionally not pulling aggro, making it very safe in many situations. Shadow Bind, Explosive Kunai, and Smokescreen will help slow down enemies, while Shadow Cloak gets you out of sticky situations instantly (though now kind of obsolete thanks to Crisis Escape). Shuriken Charge and Kunai Storm deals fairly high area of effect damage, and Sakura Abyss deals huge burst damage over time (with an arguably long load). Every skill in Ninja (sans Smokescreen in its current form) has a lot of practical use, moreso than Gunner.
-
Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-04 22:23
Quote from Oberynn;1273649:
Shooting rush is the best DPS AoE, Kunai storm is the best efficiency as an AoE and after future buffs the damage won't be too far behind either.
The answer is to use both, since the synergy for using one while the other is in cooldown is completely perfect. If you only use Shooting Rush or if you only use Kunai Storm you're doing half the AoE DPS.
Kunai Storm absolutely depends on 15+ attack range reforge and is pretty much useless without it however, while Shooting Rush only has a mild dependency on the damage reforge and can be used just fine without it. Both reforges are stupidly rare.
Both skillsets can pair extremely well with a third skillset, although ninja is a lot better at hybrid synergy while guns are a lot better at dealing versatile damage before having to switch to a different skillset.
tl;dr: why not both? just work on the one that is most suitable to you first and then work on the other.
For a fighter ninja might be more suitable, while for a mage guns would be more suitable. Not just the shared stats, but the utilities compliment better that way.
The usefulness of Gunslinger heavily declines in situations where you can't at least 2HKO enemies. I disagree with Kunai Storm "depending" on an attack range reforge. The skill hits harder than Shooting Rush and doesn't cause agro. Those are huge boons, especially as we head towards the Alban Knight Camp.
...
Also, the hilarious notion that Flash Launcher is better than Smash.
-
Oberynn wrote on 2015-05-04 22:28
But kunai storm does not hit harder than shooting rush, it's only more efficient on trash mobs due to separate hits. 900 max 500% (535% if title/lv20 reforge which are not worth it) is inferior to 1100 max 480% even when shuriken get 2h red.
Also, no one mentioned flash launcher as better than smash and kunai storm might as well really not be used at all without reforge as the difference is like barely being able to hit 3 enemies vs being able to hit 10+.
The usability of either skill NEVER never declines because you can always use the other skill while one is in cooldown and you're basically untouchable when alternating them.
-
ironwoman wrote on 2015-05-04 22:40
Quote from Oberynn;1273680:
Also, no one mentioned flash launcher as better than smash
This guy named callback did.
"Smash is the below average Smash clone. FL does amazing damage, counts as melee adding versatility against passive defenses, and all without making the mobs invincible while in a party."
No. Just no. Flash Launcher does ok damage at the best, and also overshadowed by the fact that it doesn't get benefits as much as Smash does. Sure, you can get Flash Launcher damage on your bodywear, but I'd assume you want FH duration instead. Also, Thames set.
-
Oberynn wrote on 2015-05-04 22:45
I don't think he compared flash launcher to smash, unless there was a typo his words were:
"Smash is the below average Smash clone" and then just talked about some good points of flash launcher.
And smash is indeed below average now, it shows when you notice that a ton of people removed it from their hotkeys in order to add room for bash. At least flash launcher has a purpose, does ok damage and adds some quick versatility when you have guns equipped.
-
gundamweed wrote on 2015-05-04 22:46
Quote from Kaeporo;1273629:
Sakura Abyss: Massively powerful skill that can decapitate even Martial Arts finals with a single use.
Such a bold claim needs proof!
-
Oberynn wrote on 2015-05-04 22:50
Quote from gundamweed;1273683:
Such a bold claim needs proof!
That claim has been made before and the short story is that he meant final
s and not final.
Though you can decapitate the proper final with a single final hit use so...
-
Syliara wrote on 2015-05-04 23:48
Quote from Oberynn;1273685:
That claim has been made before and the short story is that he meant finals and not final.
Though you can decapitate the proper final with a single final hit use so...
This has been proved as well.... Its pretty hilarious to be able to destroy final with one fh use and not having to worry about retaliation at all....
-
callback wrote on 2015-05-05 14:40
Quote from Nui;1273693:
This has been proved as well.... Its pretty hilarious to be able to destroy final with one fh use and not having to worry about retaliation at all....
No retaliation, I assume rain, then, to hold out the duration?
-
Bunny wrote on 2015-05-05 18:25
Quote from callback;1273757:
No retaliation, I assume rain, then, to hold out the duration?
Yeah, rain is preferred. Lullaby is alright too if you kill fast enough for solo.