Spirit Fire Wand Damage

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Rynn wrote on 2015-08-14 22:20

Just another info dump after some quick testing. This testing is a little limited in scope since I only have one spirit fire wand and it has fixed damage and reforges that I cannot change, so testing from other players would help improve accuracy.

So, I see people often say that spirit fire wand's damage bonus comes from its social level's wand bonus. I assume this is because wiki has the following to say in the matter:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/69rWz9A.png]

Ok so let's test the second part first (non-ego fire wand).

We will be using the following magic attack and disabling all other sources of firebolt dmg (totems, titles, equipment, etc, etc) for this test:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/C4ausnv.png]

So with that in mind, our firebolt's base damage is 120 (rank 1) + 149 (magic attack x spell constant) + 25 (wand bonus of 5 x 5 charges) and we get 294 firebolt base damage.

Ok, let's make an extremely simplified formula... 294 x 6.5 (5 charge firebolt) x 2.8 (masteries) = 5350. Do we get that?

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/rL7aXHL.png]

Ok, so far so good, let's move on.

We'll be using this spirit fire wand to test:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/uEVTikM.png]

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/ELhdhcl.png]

With that in mind, let's try to add up our base damage again. 120 (rank 1) + 149 (magic attack x spell constant) + 150 (wand bonus of 30 x 5 charges) + 47.5 (lv 19 reforge) and we get 466.5 firebolt base damage.

With an extremely simplified formula we'd get 466.5 x 6.5 (5 charge firebolt) x 2.8 (masteries) = 8490. Do we get that?

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/KmagSa0.png]

Nope... something isn't right.

What's the problem? Well, for now let's assume that there is no such thing as a boosted wand bonus for spirit wands and it gets the same 5 damage per charge as any other wand. However, if that's the case, why do people ego fire wands?

Let's test the other piece of information that floats around the community regarding firebolt damage: the wand's physical damage stat is directly added as base firebolt damage.

Ok so we would have... 120 (rank 1) + 149 (magic attack x spell constant) + 115 (physical damage of an all 50 spirit fire wand) 25 (wand bonus of 5 x 5 charges) + 47.5 (lv 19 reforge) and we get 456.5 firebolt base damage.

Here we go again.... 456.5 x 6.5 (5 charge firebolt) x 2.8 (masteries) = 8308. Do we get that?

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/KmagSa0.png]

Nop, but that's extremely close... What could be off?

Well, I tested a little more and it seems that the game rounds down to whole numbers so instead of 456.5 firebolt damage, 456 is used. 456 x 6.5 x 2.8 = 8299.

tl;dr: From this limited testing, don't worry so much about your wand's social level and instead focus on capping its physical damage.

And again, this testing is very limited since I only have access to this specific spirit weapon, and it would be cool if other people would provide their results with their own spirit weapons to help prove or disprove either way because who knows, this could be a conspiracy to manipulate the fire wand market or maybe I'm just too dumb to math.
Rynn wrote on 2015-08-14 22:52

Hidden Floor: Combo Cards
So, people are always saying combo cards suck for Firebolt. Why is that?

Ok, so we have this:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/Tsr1Ch2.png]

That's a juicy 40%, what could possibly be wrong with it??

Let's see, this is a non-combo card damage:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/BfYLcE6.png]

+40% should make that 5476 into a 7666 right?????!!!

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/7CVcKib.png]

Nope.jpg

What's wrong? Well, other than combo cards being glitchy for all sorts of reasons and all sort of skills, this particular time is because they completely ignore all other mastery bonuses for firebolt.

That 40% just turns an already 280% firebolt (thanks to masteries) into 320%... for an overall ~14% damage increase. Worth it? If you spent $150 for it, hell no. If you got it for free during SAO? Well, free dmg is free dmg so can't complain there. Also, keep in mind that 14% boost is only every few firebolts and the ones in-between will get much lesser bonus so the average bonus damage for the whole combo is peanuts.

Hebona set and bolt mastery/fire mastery reforges also range from bad to mediocre for the same reason... they just add to the 280% for incredibly diminishing returns.
koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-08-17 13:21

i mean people drop 40m+ to improve their damage by like 5 max over what they had before so i think dropping 100 bucks on a combo card is guud investment compared to that right?

I do wonder if they'll change the formula at some point, but devcat might just realize that doing so would push Firebolt way over the top when it's probably the best single target DPS option when your Final Hit isn't up.
callback wrote on 2015-08-17 14:04

Quote from Rynn;1284122:
Hidden Floor: Combo Cards
So, people are always saying combo cards suck for Firebolt. Why is that?

Ok, so we have this:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/Tsr1Ch2.png]

That's a juicy 40%, what could possibly be wrong with it??

Let's see, this is a non-combo card damage:

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/BfYLcE6.png]

+40% should make that 5476 into a 7666 right?????!!!

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/7CVcKib.png]

Nope.jpg

What's wrong? Well, other than combo cards being glitchy for all sorts of reasons and all sort of skills, this particular time is because they completely ignore all other mastery bonuses for firebolt.

That 40% just turns an already 280% firebolt (thanks to masteries) into 320%... for an overall ~14% damage increase. Worth it? If you spent $150 for it, hell no. If you got it for free during SAO? Well, free dmg is free dmg so can't complain there. Also, keep in mind that 14% boost is only every few firebolts and the ones in-between will get much lesser bonus so the average bonus damage for the whole combo is peanuts.

Hebona set and bolt mastery/fire mastery reforges also range from bad to mediocre for the same reason... they just add to the 280% for incredibly diminishing returns.

It's a little better than just every 5th bolt. The max combo stays active for 15 seconds after the 4th, so all firebolts within that 15 benefit from the max combo.
Rynn wrote on 2015-08-17 15:06

Nope, combo always resets and starts over.
You might be confused because the 6th bolt doesn't override the message (because it simply has no bonus).

Putting that combo into perspective if you have all firebolt gear, you are getting
0%
2.5%
3.5%
7%
12.5%

For 5% more damage per 5 uses. If it were another skill, it'd be 16% more damage per 5 uses.

It's not that 5% damage is bad, but that for $150 (and $2 a month unless you lucked out on catchapon) you can probably get 10 times more firebolt damage via max damage enchants, reforges or a better gloomy to cast music with.
JoseTheFro wrote on 2015-08-17 17:52

Thank you for this post. People always ask me why I'm a giant running around with a firewand now I'll just link them to this post!
callback wrote on 2015-08-18 13:58

Quote from Rynn;1284279:
Nope, combo always resets and starts over.
You might be confused because the 6th bolt doesn't override the message (because it simply has no bonus).

Putting that combo into perspective if you have all firebolt gear, you are getting
0%
2.5%
3.5%
7%
12.5%

For 5% more damage per 5 uses. If it were another skill, it'd be 16% more damage per 5 uses.

It's not that 5% damage is bad, but that for $150 (and $2 a month unless you lucked out on catchapon) you can probably get 10 times more firebolt damage via max damage enchants, reforges or a better gloomy to cast music with.

As if I can equip a gloomy.....

How much damage am I missing out on by using tribolt/savage instead of ego?

How did you get a 50/all ego? I've been through hundreds, probably thousands of gems and the wait time for every single one of them, and mines barely 25 all.
Rynn wrote on 2015-08-18 15:01

You don't really use gems at all until 25+ since the exp just gets wasted.
Jake wrote on 2015-08-18 16:49

Quote from callback;1284321:

How much damage am I missing out on by using tribolt/savage instead of ego?

I do 3-5k less critical damage in normal situations per firebolt compared to Rynn with this

[Image: http://i.imgur.com/0NTayxH.png]
Rynn wrote on 2015-08-18 17:50

Firebolt has too many damage sources to make a comparison between R-upgrade and and a spirit wand that could be all-encompassing and generalized to everyone.

On the other hand, a comparison between an S-upgrade and a spirit wand (ignoring reforge) would be fairly simple.

Maxed spirit wand: 115 fb dmg, 115 character dmg (24 fb damage under inspiring bfo, more if under WPP/chip as well) = 139 fb dmg.

Tribolt wand featured above but S6 instead of R6: 42 fb damage (from s6) + 17 fb dmg (from upgrades) + 14 fb dmg (from oblivion/spike and base under inspiring bfo, more if under WPP/chip as well) = 73 fb dmg.

The wand pictured earlier (being R6) would be under those conditions 31 fb dmg + 62% cdmg. But again, everyone's titles/max damage set/magic attack is wayyyy too varied to make an all-encompassing comparison. In most cases (late game) there should at least be enough base fb dmg for R6 to be better than S6 and a good contender to spirit wand however, specially if battlefield overture is involved.

There's also other factors that affect average damage such as min dmg, etc in which spirit wand will win out but generally people only care about the highest numbers.
Esileruf wrote on 2015-08-18 20:44

Me n' a friend did calcs, I haven't gotten to the bone chip additional calcs, and assuming that I haven't horribly missed something. Includes hebona set(or effectively BM15), But the tribolt crits harder than the capped ego, however it matters not in the end on that as the ego has a far higher average damage on the same level. At about 1800 Firebolt damage after modifier before charge multiplier, A red tribolt crits ~36k, an ego crits 33k. Ego despite this the ego has About 20k average damage, and the tribolt has just under 20k. Same conditions with both wands maxed.

Taking into account this data for each circumstance:
A total complete amount of enchant damage of 109 from a pure damage enchant set
Matk total of 408 for ego, 474 for Celtic Tribolt.
298+90(titles)+20(HEM w/ reforge) and for the tribolt only +66(max matk on it no artisan with max roll on matk enchants)
Same reforges affecting firebolt, 2 accs+wand at max, Totaling to firebolt 31.
Capped Wands and their damage for windowmax
508 barehand damage(straight 500 as bare hands are 8.)
Window max for Ego is 724(500+115+109)
Window max for Tri is 621(500+ 12+109)
Enchant damage with a 37% overture ends up being 376 and 338 respectively.

Assuming you hit your maximum roll for damage:
Ego:120+115+77+30+204+150=696
Tri :120+77+30+237+135=599
These are your "firebolt max" before they get multiplied by masteries. Lets take the standard 2.82 multiplier.(+.02 from ALO asuna, the title you have on)
Ego:696*2.8=1962.72
Tri :599*2.8=1689.18
This is the individual bolt damage if you were to somehow able to shoot a single bolt off. Firebolt multiplies by 6.5
Ego:1962*6.5=12753
Tri: 1689*6.5=10978
The regular damage you'll find is severely hindered, but take note. Our tribolt has a higher crit damage
Ego:12753*2.5=31882.5
Tri: 10978*3.12=34251.36
"But that damage is far higher on crit! It must be better!"

Assuming somehow you hit max 10 times in a row, and as we know(I still doubt its 30% and its more 33%, but Nobody's really re-tested it in the past three years and I'm not up to such garbage)
Ego:(12753*7)+(12753*3*2.5)=184918.5 / 10 =~18,491 avg damage.
Tri:(10978*7)+(10978*3*3.12)=179600.08 / 10 =~17,960 avg damage
Your pretty little crit number is higher, but your average damage is still going to be lower. Not by much for some folks, but when you introduce cast speed as most folks have paired with their damage, it adds up heavily. The difference between blue and red tribolts at this stage is about 1.2k avg damage iirc.
callback wrote on 2015-08-19 15:01

Quote from Esileruf;1284335:
Me n' a friend did calcs, I haven't gotten to the bone chip additional calcs, and assuming that I haven't horribly missed something. Includes hebona set(or effectively BM15), But the tribolt crits harder than the capped ego, however it matters not in the end on that as the ego has a far higher average damage on the same level. At about 1800 Firebolt damage after modifier before charge multiplier, A red tribolt crits ~36k, an ego crits 33k. Ego despite this the ego has About 20k average damage, and the tribolt has just under 20k. Same conditions with both wands maxed.

Taking into account this data for each circumstance:
A total complete amount of enchant damage of 109 from a pure damage enchant set
Matk total of 408 for ego, 474 for Celtic Tribolt.
298+90(titles)+20(HEM w/ reforge) and for the tribolt only +66(max matk on it no artisan with max roll on matk enchants)
Same reforges affecting firebolt, 2 accs+wand at max, Totaling to firebolt 31.
Capped Wands and their damage for windowmax
508 barehand damage(straight 500 as bare hands are 8.)
Window max for Ego is 724(500+115+109)
Window max for Tri is 621(500+ 12+109)
Enchant damage with a 37% overture ends up being 376 and 338 respectively.

Assuming you hit your maximum roll for damage:
Ego:120+115+77+30+204+150=696
Tri :120+77+30+237+135=599
These are your "firebolt max" before they get multiplied by masteries. Lets take the standard 2.82 multiplier.(+.02 from ALO asuna, the title you have on)
Ego:696*2.8=1962.72
Tri :599*2.8=1689.18
This is the individual bolt damage if you were to somehow able to shoot a single bolt off. Firebolt multiplies by 6.5
Ego:1962*6.5=12753
Tri: 1689*6.5=10978
The regular damage you'll find is severely hindered, but take note. Our tribolt has a higher crit damage
Ego:12753*2.5=31882.5
Tri: 10978*3.12=34251.36
"But that damage is far higher on crit! It must be better!"

Assuming somehow you hit max 10 times in a row, and as we know(I still doubt its 30% and its more 33%, but Nobody's really re-tested it in the past three years and I'm not up to such garbage)
Ego:(12753*7)+(12753*3*2.5)=184918.5 / 10 =~18,491 avg damage.
Tri:(10978*7)+(10978*3*3.12)=179600.08 / 10 =~17,960 avg damage
Your pretty little crit number is higher, but your average damage is still going to be lower. Not by much for some folks, but when you introduce cast speed as most folks have paired with their damage, it adds up heavily. The difference between blue and red tribolts at this stage is about 1.2k avg damage iirc.

Difference being an r6 tribolt is reasonable enough to obtain, and a maxed ego you will never obtain.

Plus the tribolt frees up your ego to be something else. I wonder what the exact benefit of an EQ ego is for hydra and cloud range/duration?

How much do you lose taking a savage instead of a tribolt if you want to conserve upgrading efforts and make your fb-spam and blaze wands the same wand?
Esileruf wrote on 2015-08-19 17:59

Quote from callback;1284393:
Difference being an r6 tribolt is reasonable enough to obtain, and a maxed ego you will never obtain.

Plus the tribolt frees up your ego to be something else. I wonder what the exact benefit of an EQ ego is for hydra and cloud range/duration?

How much do you lose taking a savage instead of a tribolt if you want to conserve upgrading efforts and make your fb-spam and blaze wands the same wand?

Well, a capped ego is only like, 20~25 8~10cm diamonds per level in the 40s, and 10~15 in the 30s, so only about, lets hedge it at 50m in 10k/cm diamonds at 8~10cm.
A red Tribolt will probably cost you 2~3 attempts and 6-8 makes or 2~3 wands, which would total anywhere from 6m to 18m+. Still cheaper than the ego.

Blue Tribolt and Blue Savage Fire Wand are just about the same, so its just about the same difference for red tribolt vs blue savage fire wand.
koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-10-01 13:08

Quote from Rynn;1284330:
Firebolt has too many damage sources to make a comparison between R-upgrade and and a spirit wand that could be all-encompassing and generalized to everyone.

On the other hand, a comparison between an S-upgrade and a spirit wand (ignoring reforge) would be fairly simple.

Maxed spirit wand: 115 fb dmg, 115 character dmg (24 fb damage under inspiring bfo, more if under WPP/chip as well) = 139 fb dmg.

Tribolt wand featured above but S6 instead of R6: 42 fb damage (from s6) + 17 fb dmg (from upgrades) + 14 fb dmg (from oblivion/spike and base under inspiring bfo, more if under WPP/chip as well) = 73 fb dmg.

The wand pictured earlier (being R6) would be under those conditions 31 fb dmg + 62% cdmg. But again, everyone's titles/max damage set/magic attack is wayyyy too varied to make an all-encompassing comparison. In most cases (late game) there should at least be enough base fb dmg for R6 to be better than S6 and a good contender to spirit wand however, specially if battlefield overture is involved.

There's also other factors that affect average damage such as min dmg, etc in which spirit wand will win out but generally people only care about the highest numbers.

Just want to say that I'm fairly sure that Overture has 0% effect on non spirit wands because the wand base damage does not apply, which is why spirit fire wand will always be a superior option to any non spirit fire wand.

I could be wrong though.
Rynn wrote on 2015-10-01 15:40

Overture is basically "enchant" damage, so it works on non-ego wands just the same.

The only difference is that spirit wand gives you higher character screen damage, so the bfo bonus will be slightly higher.

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