Backbreaking ES drops from Eweca Orb now

• Chihaya wrote on 2016-05-14 16:18

  Quote from Qnjo;1295573:

  And let's be honest. Using this enchant you'd invest in protection potion anyway.

  
  
  Nope. DD runs to obtain ~10 solo ESs, place each on a cheap bracelet, and hope that backbreaking lands on one of them by pure chance, rinse and repeat if you don't like backbreaking rolls. Reforge if desired. There, I just told you how to make an end-game handgear that's pretty damn cheap to repair without using protection potions
  
  As someone said, I really don't find it surprising that NA Nexon decided to put in end-game stuff in gacha. In reality, they really don't have any other way to leech money off players besides gacha and reforge sales, and with the Eweca Gacha being pretty much worthless in terms of rewards, it's not a surprise they would try to revamp it to increase its sales.
  
  Mabinogi's one of those games that everyone should understand to be heavily pay2win. Sure, reforges do nothing if you don't have the stats, but with double training potions, skill training potions, and various other cash shop items, I can probably reach my current state in the game in 1/10 the time of making a fresh character if I had enough money to plow through everything.
  
  My point? Mabinogi's been pay2win ever since reforges (I'd actually disagree with release of White Horse being the starting point because it was still obtainable through other means) and people who would throw money at Nexon will continue to do so. The only way the regular players are going to be able to take advantage of this is if we work our asses off and save up enough money to buy the ES from players who received it from gacha by pure luck.
• Rynn wrote on 2016-05-14 16:57
  They put fierce accessories, etc in gacha already years ago. That sets the bar so high, that even if they sold every single enchant in the game directly via cash shop, it wouldn't even be a match. The changing playerbase just has a very short memory, so new things that are nowhere near as bad as what's been done countless times before get treated like the end of times.
  
  This game is obviously pay2win or bot2win if you intend to do anything above casual/social gameplay, and has been for years already. It's all that can be done to keep a 10+ year old game running and profitable, so might as well embrace either and enjoy what's there to enjoy before moving onto something else.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2016-05-14 17:00

  Quote from Chihaya;1295575:

  
  
  My point? Mabinogi's been pay2win ever since the game was launched

  
  
  why why why do people think the paid weekly rb era wasn't pay to win when stats are the most important part of a characters power and that era allowed you to accumulate stats 3x as fast
  
  Backbreaking in gach has nothing on that, (or Fierce accs as Oberynn alluded to)
• Rynn wrote on 2016-05-14 17:21

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1295582:

  why why why do people think the paid weekly rb era wasn't pay to win when stats are the most important part of a characters power and that era allowed you to accumulate stats 3x as fast

  
  
  Cause it wasn't really 3x more ap, people who free rb'd often got 2x as many levels since there was simply more time and the exp curves were a lot harsher.
  
  Back then there wasn't even much of a need for AP, specialization was king and by like 4~5k you were basically "done" and the rest was just fluff side skillsets "for fun", more so if you were an elf or giant. And even further, further back then there were even less skills. If you want to talk hardcore p2w, then you gotta think back to when you couldn't even rb AT ALL without paying or do generation quests without service.
  
  Also, in general people tend to be ok with faster growth within reason (which is why exp tomes, exp from sub, etc is seen as a benign paying element in most f2p games) since you trade money for speed but you can still EVENTUALLY get there without the money.
• Chihaya wrote on 2016-05-14 19:08

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1295582:

  why why why do people think the paid weekly rb era wasn't pay to win when stats are the most important part of a characters power and that era allowed you to accumulate stats 3x as fast
  
  Backbreaking in gach has nothing on that, (or Fierce accs as Oberynn alluded to)

  
  
  Damn, Rynn beat me to it.
  
  Also, you seemed to have altered my quote: I never said launched; I said from reforges.
  
  Basically, if you can obtain it within reasonable limits just as well as a paying player, it's generally not considered to be pay2win, such as your AP from rebirths, SOME enchants themselves (I'll discuss this in a bit), and stuff like Massive Holy Waters which isn't any different than regular holy water obtained from Church PTJs.
  
  Stuff like enchant protections, reforges, gachas are considered pay2win because they often empower players who use these items with more advantages than players who may not spend money for NX. Sure, there is the possibility of buying codes, but this is not only illegal and a bannable offence, it also comes with a super high risk of losing the hard-earned gold.
  
  Now you might wonder "Well how is backbreaking ES in gacha p2w when it's available from spamming WDs?"
  This is due to the following reasons:
  1) Said "WDs" are not exactly readily available. There are a max of 14 "tries" for the ES per day, but this is if the player can log in at the exact designated times and make contributions. This is unlike perhaps dungeons or shadow missions which the player can "try" for multiple times without limit
  2) WDs also require enough people to take it down. Another player mentioned this already, but Tarlach sometimes has occasions where not enough players are available to actually finish the raid, subtracting from those "14 tries"
  3) EVEN after finishing the raid, the enchant scroll itself is pretty darn rare. Self explanatory
  4) It's an "end-game" enchant that should only be available to a smaller portion of the population dedicated to earning it, or has the luck of RNGesus on their side.
  
  Backbreaking in Eweca Orbs is considered to be "pay2win" because it bypasses all of the above by using real life money, and obtaining it "casually" through WD spamming is NOT a reasonable alternative
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2016-05-14 19:30

  Quote from Rynn;1295583:

  
  Back then there wasn't even much of a need for AP, specialization was king and by like 4~5k you were basically "done" and the rest was just fluff side skillsets "for fun", more so if you were an elf or giant. And even further, further back then there were even less skills. If you want to talk hardcore p2w, then you gotta think back to when you couldn't even rb AT ALL without paying or do generation quests without service.

  
  
  The only people who were 4-5k in that time period were people who weekly RBed consistently (assuming you made your character in 2008, you needed to average 60 levels per 3 week RB to even break 2k by 2010, and most of those levels would have come before the introduction of SMs, and realistically, before a given player would have acquired a base knowledge of how to play/level/etc). Granted, 3 week RB could get a better level per RB (I used to routinely get 100+ prior to the last curve nerf) but weekly players could get 80-85 with not that much difficulty in comparison because the curve was largely the same up until then. Not to mention that before talents players were locked into Adv missions (or forced to have someone carry them in Elite) so that further restricted their ability to keep up.
  
  Also Mabi's progression is different from most games in the sense that it's so much more elongated. Paying for 2-3x leveling speed isn't a big deal in a game where you can hit endgame level in half a year playing casually without boosts. Paying for the same advantage in a game where progression is measured in months, not weeks, is a much bigger deal.
  
  Nothing wrong with pay2levelfaster but Mabi's model has always been a ridiculous outlier that probably would have shortened the game's lifespan had they continued it.
  
  Also I'm not denying BB isn't pay to win, but we've crossed the pay to win event horizon close to a decade ago. Personally, I would have put more midgame enchants in like they mostly did, with stuff like Symbolic or Nightmare being the farthest point one could take it.
• ironwoman wrote on 2016-05-14 19:31

  Quote from Qnjo;1295573:

  NA playerbase is much smaller than other versions. On Tarlach no one is even doing raids on regular basis. Backbreaking ES in gacha isn't the source, but the outcome of a bigger problem.
  
  And let's be honest. Using this enchant you'd invest in protection potion anyway.

  
  
  You also have an option of soloing the White Dragon, and usually you can expect to get 3-4 channels done per raid session.
  
  Also TW server isn't much larger, and they still haven't gone this far.
• Roodles wrote on 2016-05-16 02:18
  I'd prefer they keep it to Enchants as opposed to slapping endgame weapons in the "permanent" Eweca Orb.
  
  Lesser of evils?
• ironwoman wrote on 2016-05-16 04:08
  The difference is that those Celtic weapons came from limited time gacha, not permanent.
  
  So yeah, this is worse, and can't really compared limited time gacha vs permanent gacha.
• Roodles wrote on 2016-05-16 04:45

  Quote from ironwoman;1295615:

  The difference is that those Celtic weapons came from limited time gacha, not permanent.
  
  So yeah, this is worse, and can't really compared limited time gacha vs permanent gacha.

  
  
  What I meant was, it could be a lot worse. You could see X-Grade Celtic weapons in there as opposed to just Backbreaking.
  
  Not to say that this was a good idea, mind you. Nexon continues to annoy and confuse.
• ironwoman wrote on 2016-05-16 05:42

  Quote from Roodles;1295616:

  What I meant was, it could be a lot worse. You could see X-Grade Celtic weapons in there as opposed to just Backbreaking.
  
  Not to say that this was a good idea, mind you. Nexon continues to annoy and confuse.

  
  
  Those are still not worse than Backbreaking considering that item value of before the gacha shenanigans.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2016-05-16 09:15
  The whole aspect is RNG on top of RNG, which is what is keeping me away from playing this game after so many years, and for the person who mentioned to just slap backbreaking on solo bracelets, one, that's more RNG, two, no one worth their salt is going to use bracelets unless you are really low end.
• Drizzit wrote on 2016-05-16 12:43
  I'm going to guess it's a stupidly low rate drop from the gatcha too, so it's just a question of if you want to spend hundreds of hours or hundreds of dollars trying to get it.
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2016-05-16 14:14

  Quote from Drizzit;1295623:

  I'm going to guess it's a stupidly low rate drop from the gatcha too, so it's just a question of if you want to spend hundreds of hours or hundreds of dollars trying to get it.

  
  
  I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even on Tarlach I've already seen quite a few people selling the enchant, and I managed to get one myself as well.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2016-05-16 14:46

  Quote from Osayidan;1295572:

  While I don't like seeing stuff like this in gachas, we can't deny that dungeons aren't worth doing because most of the time you'll get a pile of gold and a potion at the end. So there's zero motivation to do anything. It's much easier to let the MMO-Whales gacha until their e-peens get large enough and then sell enchants onto the market to let people who want them be able to obtain them.
  
  I wouldn't mind doing dungeons if it gave a lot of gold and good loot every time, with the occasional very rare drop (such as these types of enchants) being tossed in as the desirable item. Doing a ridiculous dungeon run for a 3 - 5k gold and a mana potion can go fuck itself, seriously. There's a difference between RNG and rape.

  
  
  That's pretty much the sum of my argument and my opinion on the matter. If the RNG rates weren't so deplorable I would be more against this. The RNG rates are just too stacked against the player.