Mage support

• Justified wrote on 2010-04-27 01:24
  Where did I mention Fireballing when solo? I didn't.
  
  You said that warriors and archers don't know how to play properly to support your Thunder, thus reducing your efficiency.
  My argument was that Fireball is greatly superior to Thunder in party play. Therefore, it's illogical to say people should learn to cope with Thunder, when a good mage can just switch to the party-friendly Fireball if the party can't work together effectively.
  Your counter argument is that Thunder is better for solo? Irrelevant.
  
  Most people think that Thunder is the end all of advanced magic - Ice Spear is weak and Fireball is too slow without cheating one-change - which is why I tossed in the overrated comment.
  
  Also, what party missions are you running? Because those numbers are nowhere close to something like Shadow Wizard. In a five wave Shadow Wizard, I usually have time for 2 Fireballs. Average party size = 6 people
  250MP = 16% Exp for Fireball
  550MP = 100% Exp for Thunder, assuming you can actually kill all 7-9 mobs with one shot, each time. More likely, it'll cost you at least 1100MP, assuming the mobs hi die in one Thunder, and you hit the entire wave in two shots.
  
  Yea. Good luck with that. I don't even pull out my wands unless I'm in some serious dungeon. Melee is much faster and cheaper than magic in things such as Ciar Advance, which is what you seem to base your numbers on. If you've ever ran Shadow Wizard Hard with a good party, then you should know that solo exp can't even compare.
• Trigger wrote on 2010-04-27 01:30

  Quote from Justified;19691:

  Where did I mention Fireballing when solo? I didn't.
  
  Also, what party missions are you running? Because those numbers are nowhere close to something like Shadow Wizard. In a five wave Shadow Wizard, I usually have time for 2 Fireballs. Average party size = 6 people
  250MP = 16% Exp for Fireball
  550MP = 100% Exp for Thunder, assuming you can actually nail all 7-9 mobs with one shot, each time. More likely, it'll cost you at least 1000MP, assuming the mobs die in one Thunder, and you clear the entire wave in two shots.
  
  Yea. Good luck with that.

  
  
  I never said you said Fireball while solo. Where did you get that?
  
  16% EXP is not worth my time or yours, period. If you would even consider it worth it for a moment, you need to reevaluate your priorities as a mage player.
  
  And even your own math proves my point. 1000 MP for 100% EXP, or 250 MP (25% of 1000) for 16% EXP (16 is not 25% of 100). Just not worth it, any way you slice it.
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-27 01:42

  Quote from Trigger;19700:

  And even your own math proves my point. 1000 MP for 100% EXP, or 250 MP (25% of 1000) for 16% EXP (16 is not 25% of 100). Just not worth it, any way you slice it.

  
  
  I know you love mana efficiency, but there are other factors too. The party will clear the run much faster than the soloist. The soloist requires much more care and effort without the party.
  
  10 Thunders will take 175 seconds to cast, not including the downtime. 2 Fireballs takes 30 seconds.
  
  If my party continues to run at max speed like that, allowing me only 2 Fireballs per orb, that means that we're clearing the mission 5.5x as fast as a solo player spamming Thunder. We run the dungeon 5 times, and we reach 90% Exp. Toss in the extra 4 mission Clear Bonuses, and it's a good chance that we hit over 100%.
  
  The 4 extra Clear Bonuses give me enough gold for at least 10,000 more mana if I buy Mana Herbs. Easily makes up for however much I use.
• Taran wrote on 2010-04-27 01:57
  Solo mages and Spamming Fireballs RULE!!! (My Opinion)
  
  other than that good guide, too bad i dont party or do dungeons anymore.
• Trigger wrote on 2010-04-27 02:01
  I won't say that that doesn't work. But this assumes you have a party that can work together with few to no casualties, and furthermore assumes that said party is willing to "grind" this Shadow Mission.
  
  That's the fatal flaw of parties. Chances are you are going to have at least one person who gets tired of leveling and decides to call it a day before the rest of you are ready to quit. What do you do then? Your party just lost one or two vital members, possibly more. You can't just pull some random person into the party and hope for the same efficient results.
  
  Since your development is essentially dependent on the cooperation of other people, you're left to stagnate until the entire party feels up to the grind again. Either that, or you're not cranking out a decent number of levels in order to make things work with the fickleness of multiple people, which works but is not AP-friendly (takes longer to rank skills).
  
  If you want something done well, you gotta do it yourself. I refuse to subject my personal development to the whims of someone else.
• Justified wrote on 2010-04-27 02:11
  Even if you stop short of 5 runs, the profit/time is still the same. You still gain more exp and gold per time spent in a party compared to solo, even if the time doesn't match up.
  
  It's not like you have to always do everything in a party. Much of my leveling is done solo as well, but you're saying that parties are absolutely slower and more expensive compared to soloing, which isn't the case.
• Trigger wrote on 2010-04-27 02:36

  Quote from Justified;19777:

  Even if you stop short of 5 runs, the profit/time is still the same. You still gain more exp and gold per time spent in a party compared to solo, even if the time doesn't match up.
  
  It's not like you have to always do everything in a party. Much of my leveling is done solo as well, but you're saying that parties are absolutely slower and more expensive compared to soloing, which isn't the case.

  
  
  Not absolutely, just more often than not. And the time spent getting a good party is time I'd rather spend actually leveling, but again, that's just me.
  
  My vehement hate of party play is based mostly on the all-too-common misconception that partying will make up for the weaknesses of its various members, which is a carryover from more traditional MMORPGs. I'll borrow a favorite phrase from the Nexon Forum and reword it to fit the situation: party play is only good to keep inexperienced fighters complacent. Since newcomers aren't strong enough to take things down on their own, they team up, and think that makes them better somehow, when in fact all they are doing is hindering their progress by needlessly partying where it is not necessary in addition to the places where it actually is necessary. But as you have pointed out, partying can work for higher-level players as well -- people who understand the mechanics of combat.
  
  It seems that my viewpoint must now undergo yet another evolution. The ideal flow of play style runs as follows:
  
  Newbie (Party Play) -> Basic Combat Skills (Solo Play) -> Perfected Combat Skills (Solo Play) -> Perfected Combat Skills (Party Play)
  
  First players must overcome obstacles that seem impossible, and to do so, they team up and overwhelm their targets with sheer numbers.
  
  After a while, they are educated by experience or by their fellow players in simple skill combos such as the universal Magic Counter, and become capable of soloing most lower-level dungeons.
  
  Having a basic grasp of tactics, they proceed to learn more and more, and after enough time spent playing the game, evolve to a point where almost every non-Hardmode dungeon is soloable, and quite a number of Hardmode dungeons as well. This is the pinnacle of solo tactics.
  
  Once this point is reached, and perhaps even a little before it is reached, the player is fully aware of the battlefield and can adapt to most situations. This qualifies them for quality party play, party play that does not seek to compensate for the relative weakness of its participants, but rather seeks to combine their strengths.
• Taran wrote on 2010-04-27 02:55

  Quote from Trigger;19826:

  Not absolutely, just more often than not. And the time spent getting a good party is time I'd rather spend actually leveling, but again, that's just me.
  
  
  Most First players must overcome obstacles that seem impossible, and to do so, they team up and overwhelm their targets with sheer numbers.

  
  
  i got to where i am today in mabi just from experience by experimenting, failing and effort. rinse and repeat for other skills.
• Kyouriharu wrote on 2010-04-27 03:25
  In my opinion, it seems like you're implying that magic is the only way to go to soloing, as if it was better. Honestly, being a guild mage (okay, 1/4th mage, with 1/4 ranged, 1/4 melee, and 1/4 golem) I know where you're poking at. I have partied with some dimwits who really need to lay off the Windmill, and I have partied with players who group a good portion of the enemies into a corner allowing me to take pot shots with Thunder. All I'm saying is that, if I have to take a choice between loading one or two charges of Thunder, 42 MP for 500 Damage or 70 MP for 1000 damage, or allow some of my friends to take hits for me allowing a good 109 MP for 3000 damage, I'd take the second over the first. I'd rather utilize my 1k in this Mana Potion to its full potential than engorge it on puny shots. I mean seriously At full charge it's 27.5 damage a Mana Point, as opposed to a single or double charge 11.9 or 14.3 respectively. Not saying that you shouldn't do it, just realize that it's far better firing after all 5 charges, allowing someone or even a pet to sponge the aggro and damage.
  
  I understand some people go pure magic, more power to them. That's no different than Elves going Pure Melee and it seems Nekostory has that covered pretty darn well (I would say me too but I'm not "pure" melee). But is either of them more preferred? Not really. When I drop my bow or cylinder for my hammer or wand, well then, whatever. I do my fair shares of Ice Spears in Ciar Advanced and Windmills in Runda Hardmode but I still prefer my bow or golem, but that doesn't mean I drop them completely. It just shows that I’m more flexible. There are times when solo magic shines; there are other times when other options shine too.
  
  Anyways, I typed this in the morning and I see that the topic went far from a few points I made. Eh, I still felt like sharing.
• Taran wrote on 2010-04-27 03:31

  Quote from Kyouriharu;19933:

  In my opinion, it seems like you're implying that magic is the only way to go to soloing, as if it was better. Honestly, being a guild mage (okay, 1/4th mage, with 1/4 ranged, 1/4 melee, and 1/4 golem) I know where you're poking at. I have partied with some dimwits who really need to lay off the Windmill, and I have partied with players who group a good portion of the enemies into a corner allowing me to take pot shots with Thunder. All I'm saying is that, if I have to take a choice between loading one or two charges of Thunder, 42 MP for 500 Damage or 70 MP for 1000 damage, or allow some of my friends to take hits for me allowing a good 109 MP for 3000 damage, I'd take the second over the first. I'd rather utilize my 1k in this Mana Potion to its full potential than engorge it on puny shots. I mean seriously At full charge it's 27.5 damage a Mana Point, as opposed to a single or double charge 11.9 or 14.3 respectively. Not saying that you shouldn't do it, just realize that it's far better firing after all 5 charges, allowing someone or even a pet to sponge the aggro and damage.
  
  I understand some people go pure magic, more power to them. That's no different than Elves going Pure Melee and it seems Nekostory has that covered pretty darn well (I would say me too but I'm not "pure" melee). But is either of them more preferred? Not really. When I drop my bow or cylinder for my hammer or wand, well then, whatever. I do my fair shares of Ice Spears in Ciar Advanced and Windmills in Runda Hardmode but I still prefer my bow or golem, but that doesn't mean I drop them completely. It just shows that I’m more flexible. There are times when solo magic shines; there are other times when other options shine too.
  
  Anyways, I typed this in the morning and I see that the topic went far from a few points I made. Eh, I still felt like sharing.

  
  
  i Agree with what you say. its all depends on the person behind the computer on what they prefer (melee, Range, Alchemy, Magic or perhaps Life skills!!)
• Trigger wrote on 2010-04-27 03:33

  Quote from Kyouriharu;19933:

  In my opinion, it seems like you're implying that magic is the only way to go to soloing, as if it was better.

  
  
  It's actually the other way around, and I'm saying that solo is the only way (or rather the best way) to go maging, but I get your point. =P I don't use magic in party unless we absolutely need huge numbers fast. I prefer to use melee or range, because the majority of people know how they work and how to cooperate with someone who's using them, making for a cleaner effort all around.
  
  
  

  Quote from Taran;19865:

  i got to where i am today in mabi just from experience by experimenting, failing and effort. rinse and repeat for other skills.

  
  
  Your experience would seem to be more of an exception to the rule. =P Most people, or at least most people I know anything about, were taught at least some of the basics by someone else, either through direct communication or by watching people in action.
• Syrphid wrote on 2010-04-27 06:17

  Quote from Trigger;19826:

  It seems that my viewpoint must now undergo yet another evolution. The ideal flow of play style runs as follows:
  
  Newbie (Party Play) -> Basic Combat Skills (Solo Play) -> Perfected Combat Skills (Solo Play) -> Perfected Combat Skills (Party Play)
  
  First players must overcome obstacles that seem impossible, and to do so, they team up and overwhelm their targets with sheer numbers.
  
  After a while, they are educated by experience or by their fellow players in simple skill combos such as the universal Magic Counter, and become capable of soloing most lower-level dungeons.
  
  Having a basic grasp of tactics, they proceed to learn more and more, and after enough time spent playing the game, evolve to a point where almost every non-Hardmode dungeon is soloable, and quite a number of Hardmode dungeons as well. This is the pinnacle of solo tactics.
  
  Once this point is reached, and perhaps even a little before it is reached, the player is fully aware of the battlefield and can adapt to most situations. This qualifies them for quality party play, party play that does not seek to compensate for the relative weakness of its participants, but rather seeks to combine their strengths.

  
  
  I see, so awareness and versatility qualify a player for perfected party play.
  
  What does perfected party play look like? What does it mean to combine one's strengths, but not to compensate for one's weaknesses?
• Trigger wrote on 2010-04-27 06:28

  Quote from Syrphid;20026:

  What does it mean to combine one's strengths, but not to compensate for one's weaknesses?

  
  
  I thought I explained that. =P
  
  Newbies play in party because no one is strong yet; their numbers allow them to succeed (more targets to take aggro from a large boss monster, for instance, means that one person is not constantly under attack, giving these less experienced players room to breathe and perform non-tactical attacks such as constant normal attacks with Auto enabled; it lets them revive one another, etc.). More experienced players would play in party not because they are weak, but because they are strong. They don't need the party to make up for some deficiency they have.
  
  As for "what perfected party play looks like", feel free to define that yourself. All I'm saying is that once you're past being a newbie and have some experience under your belt, you should learn to stand on your own two feet and get good at it -- and once you are fully able to stand on your own, you can make a valuable contribution to a strong party.
• Chillax wrote on 2010-04-27 06:43
  My take on perfected party play is that everyone has near-perfect knowledge of the AI and what the other players will do as well as how to make those players invulnerable to monsters. I feel that perfected party play would allow people to make riskier moves that could lead to faster and more efficient clearance of dungeons and missions while still covering the vulnerability of each player. One example I can think of (non-Mabi related) is Pain in Naruto (ew), where each of Pain's controlled bodies have various skills, but are able to prevent damage by Jiraiya to each individual member because each member is able to use his special ability to block Jiraiya's different types of attacks. They are able to defeat Jiraiya in the end because of their ability to make risky, but effective attacks due to their excellent party play.
• Syrphid wrote on 2010-04-29 00:50

  Quote from Archibald;19499:

  Wow good discussion guys. And coming from the mage side of the debate I agree with Trigger. Its hard to run any dungeons with a party larger than 2(even 2 makes it harder) people as a mage due the the issues he talked about. However I get bored with Solo maging all the time. This guide was written in order to help some melee people understand whats going on a little with a mage. I soloed Rundal Adv Hardmode with 0 deaths but for the life of me I havent been able to do that with ALby adv HM(12), Ciar adv hm(9), Peaca(12), Peaca Basic(havent tried), Shadow Wiz hard(2). My goal was to develope a 2 man strategy to run those with 0 deaths.
  
  The best party magic (although it annoys meleers alot) is Icespear. Since most of the time the ranges/meleers don't hurt your freezing. With thunder (a preferred magic for many mages) less is more. Casting fireball in adv HM is suicidal unless you have a bunch of barrier spikes (that the fireball doesnt blow up).
  
  Maybe one of you guys can write a ADV dungeon party Guide in which all parts work flawlessly.:what:
  If I am in a party thats large 4-5+ as a Mage I tend to become a support (directing aggros, healing, bolt stunning a mob chasing someone) if I want to flow harmoniusly with the others (since casting thunder will just cause my death more often).
  
  Either way good discussion. I find myself soloing alot like Trigger but that gets boring at times.

  
  
  You're in a party with 1~7 of the smartest, loyal and dedicated guildmates you can imagine. They are warriors, archers or mages; whatever you want them to be.
  
  What would you ask them to do? What would you do?