Alchemy + Range?

• Ailyene wrote on 2010-11-25 11:16
  So I've recently discovered that Alchemy skills can really stack up to high damage. However, as I'm ranking chain cylinder, I'm very dissatisfied with the rate at which CC actually occurs (although I'm only rank 8 at the moment) and I was wondering if it's really worth being a pure alchemist. I used to be a melee/ranger before this, so I have some nice melee/ranged damage as well. I was wondering which option would be better.
  
  1) Pure alchemist. Use golem/water cannon/flame burst/heat buster/whatever.
  2) Alchemist/Ranger.
  
  Which one would be more effective in battle? I don't want to melee right now since I'd rather attack from afar (and I have rank 1 snow/sulfur golems for melee anyway) and magic is out of the question because I refuse to use magic due to mana costs.
  
  The problem for number 2 is that I don't have enough weapon slots. I'd prefer to use a tower cylinder if I am to use skills such as water cannon since it doubles the damage. However, if I equip a tower cylinder in one slot and a bow in the second, I won't have room for a regular cylinder in case I want to use barrier spikes or golem. In fact, it seems a bit of a hassle to switch in and out of the tower cylinder mode...but who knows?
  
  Also, I'm confused about enchants for alchemy. I read that absolute max damage enchants don't affect alchemy too much, compared to range/melee. Would that mean that my +30 max damage equips would be sort of useless for alchemy?
  
  I'd rather not be a pure ranger which is why it isn't an option because the rate at which I miss at 80%+ frustrates me greatly...plus human mag aims very slowly even at rank 1.
• Username wrote on 2010-11-25 13:52
  Well, if you get Skill Lag at any point, being Pure Alchemist Stinks balls, much like other people. It's more worth it once you get a few skills to get you out of binds, Like, i use heatbuster alot, and mines Rank 1 almost mastered. So mobs without protection, i crit above 4k+, and my Chain cylinder is only Rank C. However my ingame wife, has Rank 1, and 1/3 of the time getting a CC is good, and almost 1/2 of the time with the titles even better. Its alot better once you get like rank 9+ Windblast and Rank 5+ Heatbuster. (Rank 1 Definiatly recommended due to damage jump)
  
  Alchemy is based on Elemental Damage. So enchants that give Max Damage +7 and such, wont do anything but melee damage for cylinders, which you will do a limited amount of times. However enchants like Water Drop that increase 'Water Alchemical' Damage is what would increase Water Cannons Damage by a small amount. Enchants to look into are Energetic and Stiff, critting is absolute as an alchemist, and Energetic to have more Stamina, and when you switch back to it with swaping for secondary weapon, you gain 50 stamina back, which isn't that great, but its a trick.
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-11-25 14:16
  Elemental enchants like hot or moist can help. Also, going for royal alchemist is something to recommend for anyone serious about alchemy, but make sure you have a set of equipment to fall back on anytime you decide that you don't want to maintain the title anymore. I believe the shoes and title give nice bonuses for alchemy water/fire damage.
  
  For weapon slot problem, I think that you should look at situation and decide what works. Though I think that the tower cylinder would be a better choice because of the no-miss rate. The immobility is a small price to pay for the damage and effect increase (e.g. frozen blast time x2).
  
  Human range is not very good for shadow missions, especially at the hard mode level and if you do not have enough critical - that's a lot more worse than anything else. Damage is too little and inefficient and mobs have too much hp. The only thing that seem to work ok is crash shot but from past observations the damage isn't that spectacular as compared to mid-level magic (e.g. Fireball) unfortunately.
  
  (Seriously though, if you are going for raw damage, at this moment alchemy isn't the solution. This is probably why you wonder if it is worth being a pure alchemist. It only offers an alternative way to attack with its own costs. For efficiency, magic or melee is still king for now.)
• Juno wrote on 2010-11-25 14:25
  Alchemy can function as a stand alone once you start maxxing your skills. Windmill works fine with a cylinder and both wind blast and heat buster can be loaded during KB, but the true multi-aggro handlers must happen before the monsters are all on you. Barrier spikes or a well aimed flame burst can handle a horde, but only if executed properly.
  
  It is rare, though, that you'll need a tower cylinder. Since you have to have time to set it up, you may as well also take time to equip it. You can go bow/cylinder and then switch the bow out when you need a tower. The reason being that if you get knocked back out of the tower set-up, you can get a wind blast off.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2010-11-25 16:32

  Quote from Yogurticecream;228602:

  Elemental enchants like hot or moist can help. Also, going for royal alchemist is something to recommend for anyone serious about alchemy, but make sure you have a set of equipment to fall back on anytime you decide that you don't want to maintain the title anymore. I believe the shoes and title give nice bonuses for alchemy water/fire damage.
  
  For weapon slot problem, I think that you should look at situation and decide what works. Though I think that the tower cylinder would be a better choice because of the no-miss rate. The immobility is a small price to pay for the damage and effect increase (e.g. frozen blast time x2).
  
  Human range is not very good for shadow missions, especially at the hard mode level and if you do not have enough critical - that's a lot more worse than anything else. Damage is too little and inefficient and mobs have too much hp. The only thing that seem to work ok is crash shot but from past observations the damage isn't that spectacular as compared to mid-level magic (e.g. Fireball) unfortunately.
  
  (Seriously though, if you are going for raw damage, at this moment alchemy isn't the solution. This is probably why you wonder if it is worth being a pure alchemist. It only offers an alternative way to attack with its own costs. For efficiency, magic or melee is still king for now.)

  
  
  I can usually get close enough with Human Magnum Shot using a crossbow to consistently hit 99% before the mob can counter me (pet play helps). That's my primary method of attack at this point. Arrow Revolver deals worthless damage, but serves its purpose frequently. Crash Shot (even at rD) almost replaces Magnum Shot. It's the only thing that is keeping Human Archers alive.
  
  Seriously. I've said this a few times, but when it comes time to enchant, Human Archers (Elves should focus on ADACT while shooting for 90/130 critical) should focus on max damage.
  
  Human melee doesn't care about 90/130 critical so that they can constantly crit when using normal melee and Smash, why should we care about constantly pulling off crits with Arrow Revolver and Magnum Shot?
  
  Pure Human Archer: ADACT, Max Damage
  Hybrid Human Melee-Archer: Max Damage
  Hybrid Human Alchemist-Archer: Critical
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-11-25 21:38
  Hmm. Well I rarely have problems being hit in tower cylinder mode or even ranging because I can just set up some nice barrier spikes in a corner and snipe away. If I have to have mob control, I'll just windmill or use a golem. I like range, but the thing is that I can't hit 2k+ on the hardmode monsters with higher def/prot unless I crit with magnum and that's not often either (usually might crit 1.5k-1.8k), plus it misses a bunch even at extremely high % so it's very frustrating. My range was enchanted for max damage too.
  
  I've been using water cannon lately and so far, it feels it has potential 5 charge firebolt damage or more, which is nice.
  
  I'm not going for raw damage at the moment. Just want to know if pure alchemy or alchemy/range would be more efficient. So far, it seems as though alchemy might be better, so perhaps I should keep on ranking alchemy instead of only ranking some and then doing dex?
• Username wrote on 2010-11-25 21:52
  Well, for Alchemy, its great that you are part Archer too, due to all that dex you saved up, and you should have 80% Balance with a cylinder. I recommend getting Barrier spikes to 1 if you havent, to compliment your Archery if Alchemy fails. If you want to be a pure alchemist, what you need to focus on, is Crit. Crit, Crit Crit. Alchemy doesnt tend to crit often if you dont work on crit with it, thats why i just put all 5 upgrades on my cylinders for Trigger Change, with 20% More crit, that goes a long way, doing that to a Stiff/Lizard Cylinder makes it a max of 35% Crit (38% if your using a Neid Dropped Cylinder) and 45% Crit if you have caliburn on Suffix, but 6k a point isn't fun.
  
  Golem should be used behind barrier spikes at all times, so you dont get hit at all, in which preventing distraction.
  I find Alchemy goes well with crit; Get flamer to Rank 7(?) for Burning enchant, and put it on a stiff hat, making Stiff Burning for a whooping 16% Crit total from the hat alone. Aswell as dont forget a Stiff Round shield if you can get your hands on one. I find alchemy as the 'safe' alternative, if you dont lag, you wont die, and 0% Chance to miss. Chain Cylinder and Heat Buster at High ranks makes everything much faster.
  
  However if your a watercannon user; Waterdrop enchants do not hurt. I recommend still getting dex after some decent alchemy aswell as if your alchemy runs out of ammo, or starts failing on you, you can still have a decent range damage to go down on. Tower Cylinders are also good, however limited in range. Yes its 1.5x more range, however its also a hinderance if you cant move. For many different reasons, if your barrier spikes give out, and your just disconnecting the tower, your standing there defenceless, so only tower when your sure you can snipe un-interupted.
  
  As i just prefer mobile ones, but thats me. :P
• Juno wrote on 2010-11-25 22:32
  Crit is the most important stat end-game, which is why int/adv magic and windmill are so powerful. Flame Burst also ignores prot, though it has to be r1 and needs a good chain cylinder rank to be good.
  
  In terms of efficiency, archery really gets the shaft in shadow missions. Crash shot is kind of nice, but by that time support shot is easily the best range skill...which should tell you something...
• Kaeporo wrote on 2010-11-25 22:41

  Quote from Juno;228883:

  Crit is the most important stat end-game, which is why int/adv magic and windmill are so powerful. Flame Burst also ignores prot, though it has to be r1 and needs a good chain cylinder rank to be good.
  
  In terms of efficiency, archery really gets the shaft in shadow missions. Crash shot is kind of nice, but by that time support shot is easily the best range skill...which should tell you something...

  
  
  Support Shot is all but useless seeing as how 95% of the Mabinogi population cannot be relied on for successful teamwork. The few who have at least rudimentary team skills are still unable to take advantage of more complicated tactics as complex situations consistently break down gameplay into a group of individuals acting in tandum. I haven't seen anyone use it and its only value outside of slow-paced gimmicks is found in its dexterity bonus.
  
  ...Crash Shot, on the other hand, is situationally useful. I prefer it to windmill depending on the situation.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-11-25 22:52
  Hm, so I guess I'll be ranking CC some more and getting waterdrop/crit enchants. Alright, thanks guys! I was afraid before that I wasted my AP on water cannon and CC but it seems pretty nice. I don't mind the immobility of tower cylinders because I'd only be using them in shadow missions with rooms, so I just set up barrier spikes in a corner.
• radionoise wrote on 2010-11-25 23:28

  Quote from Juno;228883:

  Crit is the most important stat end-game, which is why int/adv magic and windmill are so powerful. Flame Burst also ignores prot, though it has to be r1 and needs a good chain cylinder rank to be good.
  
  In terms of efficiency, archery really gets the shaft in shadow missions. Crash shot is kind of nice, but by that time support shot is easily the best range skill...which should tell you something...

  
  
  How exactly does Archery get the shaft in Shadow Missions? If you mean Archery than can't crit, sure, I agree... But anyone who is specialized in range and at the hardmode level should have acquired 90/110% crit with reasonable dexterity and damage to go along with it.
  
  Elf Magnum and/or zero-shot Crash Shot (humans have a much more accurate CS) spam is often enough to match or outperform other forms of combat with enough max damage. Elves being able to run SCC Hard and many other Shadow Missions in mere minutes with devastating critical damage certainly proves Archery does have a place in Shadow Missions.
  
  Not to mention, Crash Shot's splash damage doesn't scatter the enemies like Windmill does so a skilled party can use its archers to chip away damage and number count on dense mobs, then follow up with windmill or fireball to eliminate difficult spawns very effectively.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-11-25 23:42
  Well, I'm not an elf nor have I ever successfully zero-shot anything, so I think I'm still sticking to alchemy.
  
  Also, I find it hard to believe a ranger (elf or not) who doesn't use crash shot/not in tf can run SCC hardmode in mere minutes (as in 5 minutes and under). That would require being able to one-shot every monster. I can't even one-shot mag (non-crit) a silver bone fighter with 600 dex and all +max damage enchants, sooo.... Even if you have high crit, the max chance of critting anything is 30% so you're not going to be critting all the time either. I'd need to see like a video or something to believe it.
  
  + missing often as well, even at 95%. And if you're talking about zero shot...I don't know. I've just never been able to do it.
  
  Windmill works wonders in SCC if you have excellent crit and max damage, but unfortunately it's rather suicidal sometimes so I'd rather not use it.
• radionoise wrote on 2010-11-26 00:18

  Quote from Ailyene;228934:

  Well, I'm not an elf nor have I ever successfully zero-shot anything, so I think I'm still sticking to alchemy.
  
  Also, I find it hard to believe a ranger (elf or not) who doesn't use crash shot/not in tf can run SCC hardmode in mere minutes (as in 5 minutes and under). That would require being able to one-shot every monster. I can't even one-shot mag (non-crit) a silver bone fighter with 600 dex and all +max damage enchants, sooo.... Even if you have high crit, the max chance of critting anything is 30% so you're not going to be critting all the time either. I'd need to see like a video or something to believe it.
  
  + missing often as well, even at 95%. And if you're talking about zero shot...I don't know. I've just never been able to do it.
  
  Windmill works wonders in SCC if you have excellent crit and max damage, but unfortunately it's rather suicidal sometimes so I'd rather not use it.

  
  
  If Alchemy is better suited to your play style, then it's a great idea to stick with it and make it even more powerful. My comments were regarding the effectiveness of range in Shadow Missions, and it still holds true, ranged is not at a disadvantage compared to other combat styles.
  
  Besides, why would an archer not use Crash Shot for SCC? It and Magnum are almost interchangeable for that many grouped enemies and work together perfectly at clearing the mission quickly. I can run it non-trans in 7~8 minutes with a Thoroughbred, and there are certainly people with vastly higher max damage than mine who can run it even more efficiently. You can shoot Crash Shot twice before even getting attacked by a mob, that's twice the chance to crit and then clean up anything that might have survived with zero shot magnum or ranged.
  
  The shadow ghost won't survive two critical magnums, and the doppelganger is dead before even having the chance to attack more than once if you're an elf with r1 Final Shot. SCC isn't really hard at all, and rangers in more developed servers like Korea can spam it for levels in even less time than that. That's not to say ranged is better than anything else, because all combat styles have their perks, it's just not at a disadvantage either.
• Tally wrote on 2010-11-26 00:29
  I was actually wondering about this myself. Archery is pretty useless in shadow missions because of the inability to crit, yes. Which is the main frustration I have with archery. It's like Devcat decided they absolutely hate archers, so they decided to give SM monsters ridiculous protection.
  
  My response, of course, is my Lizard Revolver Crossbow, with which I can easily hit 88% crit, and even higher with the appropriate titles or stupidly high leveling. It makes crits quite feasible and frequent, even on shadow missions. However, the range is terrible, and it really hurts if you're playing with multi-aggro. Not to mention that crash shot tends not to mix well with crossbows, in my experience.
  
  
  Ever since I got Crash Shot, I've fallen in love with it. I spam it way too much and try to find tactics to put it to more frequent use. Its damage against its target (assuming a crowd around it) is phenomenal, and the others take pretty good damage as well, ESPECIALLY during a crit. At the moment, I have rank 5 crash shot. I still say it's worth it.
  
  Support shot I have been using more now that it actually has a use, even though I've only got rF presently. I intend to rank it to r9 this weekend (focusing on other archery skills before that, mainly magnum shot). Even if archers get overshadowed, they can still be a great help.
  
  
  However... this all isn't enough for me. My damage is terrible in most shadow missions, and I otherwise don't have a use aside from keep-away, crash shot, and the occasional support. I figured alchemy could help, but even then it's a bit of an enigma to figure out how to go about it. I've already got barrier spikes r5. I was pondering that water cannon and frozen blast would probably be my other skills. With Frozen Blast I could probably cheese through SMs by freezing the mob aggro'd on me, and then spamming crash shot into him while he's immobile. Water Cannon's just cause it's along the way and is alchemy's primary attack, so I've got something to use if I became engaged in combat while I've got my cylinder out.
  
  Aside from that, though, advice is always welcome, and I feel it applies to the OP as well.
• radionoise wrote on 2010-11-26 00:55
  Lizard/Stiff Revolver Crossbows are a great and relatively inexpensive way to achieve 90%+ critical rate and give decent mobility to humans, however the damage and range may fall short of your expectations.
  
  High end range, like melee, is extremely dependent on enchants (which can be quite expensive). It is reasonable to achieve 350+ max ranged damage non-trans as well as 110%+ critical wielding a Long Bow with high dexterity and the right enchant set. Other than a few bosses with insane protection, hardly anything in any Shadow Mission passes the 40% mark and then you can always use supportive skills such as frozen blast or support shot + windmill cooperatively with a party-mate to overcome them.
  
  Range, however also takes a lot more time to develop... life skills take an absurd amount of work and combat skills eat up AP, so you really feel underpowered at first, but when you do catch up you can perform just as well as anyone else.